Shaper’s Sanctuary only cares if the card targets. You won’t draw any cards from cards that say “all creatures”, like anger and supreme verdict. Cards that will trigger Sanctuary will generally say “target creature” in their text box, like all the cards you mentioned.
Actually, Shapers' Sanctuary won't protect you from any kind of sweepers. If your opponent brings in 2 wraths against you, SS won't save you. That's why I'm so ... reluctant to play Sanctuary. If your opponent grinds you without discards and wraths AND SS is in your opening hand THEN it is a good card.
On paper, I prefer Lifecrafter's Bestiary. Because once on the battlefield (assuming it's not countered), you just need to play an elf to draw a card. You have more elves in your deck than your opponent has spot removals. What's more, the scry option is here to ensure you can top a creature to start drawing, even if your hand is empty.
On the other hand, I want to talk about the "you don't want to drop SS T1". Actually, when you bring SS in, you absolutely want to cast it T1. You always bring it in MU where elves are removed from the board with Bolt, Push, and all kind of spot removals. Sooo... Your T1 elf isn't going to live past the T1. You won't untap with it.
Playing T1 mana dork is offering a trade to your opponent : 1 card (and your explosivity) VS 1 card (spot removal). When you play T1 SS, you don't offer your opponent the possibilty to trade anything. If he kept mana up, it's all for naught this turn. What's more, when your dork will hit the battlefield, the trade will read : 1 card (a spot removal) VS cycling a dork into a draw. Much less attractive... Let's bet that this time, your T2 dork will stay on the board. What's more, T2, you can play 2 1-drops, or a Devoted Druid.
TL;DR : for me, T1 SS is quite an automatic win if your opponent has a lot of spot removals, no sweepers in hand, and not a huuuge package of discard (because he then can discard key cards and let your dorks live). A bit limitated isn't it ?
Only Jeskai and probably some (not all) Jund/Junk fits this description...
The only other trix I think about is against Walking Ballista. Want to kill some elves ? Good, let me draw like crazy ! But if you already play Stony Silence, that's under effective.
I'll cut my 3rd Nettle for Visionnary. I feel I might need some extra lord to make those Dorks effective (Elvish Champion ?), so I might change it. Not sure... Sylvan Messenger might also be a candidate, as well as Essence Warden who can sneakily buy us one or two more turn of survivability if unanswered.
RE: Mirror Entity. When I talked about white mana, I was referring to early in the game, like turn 3 early. Or turn 4. Any other turn after that and it doesn't really matter if the wincon is dusk, mirror or ezuri, because we'll have enough bodies to press a win. Ezuri following a Vizier on turn 3 is a win because you have 1 infinite powered trampler, but if you're using mirror, so much as a Sakura Tribe elder will make you look silly. Or me, back when I tried Mirror entity! So I've played your product and found it lacking by EXPERIENCE. How about you? Have you experienced the wonder that is the turn 3 duskwatch, that wins through anything and everything on the board including ensnaring bridge, pithing needles on ezuri AND worship?
Mirror < Ezuri, and with combo, Mirror < Ezuri < Duskwatch.
RE: "IDK if you read my comment all the way through" - no I didn't read your original comment, only the new one. Nice to know you didn't drop all your nondork nonheritage 1 drops. It's still strange to replace nettle with visionary. The way you do replacements, you change your curve up. If one is aiming to put devoted druids into the deck, it is a lot more straightforward to drop the next weakest 2 drop. This has led me to drop visionary. Straight GW would have dropped their flex like E Witt or Ooze, but I already have Shaman in those slots. That could be why we're diverging here. When changing up slots however, I don't look across the same cmc generally.
On your finishing point - you've boarded out Heritage druid? We're definitely on different frequencies here. Nettle, certainly comes out for more suitable one drops like essence warden. But I've not heard or seen in any elves gameplay footage of people taking out Heritage.
Haha I have absolutely found mirror entity to be exceptional in my experience. Sounds like you didn't get enough reps in gw doesn't have a problem beating ensnaring bridge thanks to devoted druid, and pithing needle after the inclusion of entity. Beating worship is almost never going to come up. When it does, you are exceedingly likely to have won before t5. + you can still just win with shaman or rec sage if you're super worried about it. Mirror entity will frequently be just as good as ezuri t3, due to our density of 1s and 2s. If we make infinite mana t3, we are likely to have 2-3 infinite power attackers minimum. Even if our opponent can block, those chumps will put us in a favorable position. For your scapeshift example, even if we can't win on that turn, we can still buff our board out of range of an anger on their turn. Trying to argue that duskwatch is better than the rest of our infinite mana win cons is laughable. If you believe that, play abzan coco, because it's the better deck at that point. Elves is superior because we dont have to rely on bad infinite mana payoffs like duskwatch. When you try to go for t3 vizier combo, and you get hit with a removal spell vs grixis DS, you're gonna be caught with your pants down staring at a 2/2 for 2 in hand, that isn't an elf, that isn't good unless you already have infinite mana when he's cast. It's gonna be even more embarrassing when they force you to chump with your dorks by swinging with shadow or angler, and leave you without enough mana to activate your 2/2's 3 mana ability even once! The same argument regarding mana intensiveness doesn't apply to entity or ezuri. With any board state, those creatures immediately threaten to win the game, despite a high mana investment. When ezuri/entity would end the game with 3-6 mana, duskwatch would just draw 1 or 2 cards. No infinite mana required for entity and ezuri. Entity is much better, for example, alongside elvish archdruid. Another sidenote, it can buff our elves out of range of pyroclasm, whipflare, flaying tendrils, kozilek's return, and anger at instant speed much more easily than ezuri. Again, if your mana base isn't producing white by t3 or t4, rebuild it. This is modern. Turn 1 white and green is not hard.
Yes, it is a lot more straight forward to drop visionary. But reluctance to divulge from 4x nettle is one of the factors keeping modern elves down. For a very small cost against combo/big mana, where we still consistently t3 or t4, we can greatly improve our matchup against midrange and control, which comprises a massive percentage of the modern meta. Having visionaries + horizon canopies to cantrip along with 4 cocos all maindeck gives us a very solid game against mid variants, and a crazy positive matchup vs 8-rack.
It's matchup dependent, but when people board in interaction, nettle and heritage are our worst cards. I definitely board out all my nettle sentinels first, but I only have two. So heritage druid is frequently next. Sometimes chord is shaved instead, or a mix of both. It depends.
On the other hand, I want to talk about the "you don't want to drop SS T1". Actually, when you bring SS in, you absolutely want to cast it T1. You always bring it in MU where elves are removed from the board with Bolt, Push, and all kind of spot removals. Sooo... Your T1 elf isn't going to live past the T1. You won't untap with it.
Playing T1 mana dork is offering a trade to your opponent : 1 card (and your explosivity) VS 1 card (spot removal). When you play T1 SS, you don't offer your opponent the possibilty to trade anything. If he kept mana up, it's all for naught this turn. What's more, when your dork will hit the battlefield, the trade will read : 1 card (a spot removal) VS cycling a dork into a draw. Much less attractive... Let's bet that this time, your T2 dork will stay on the board. What's more, T2, you can play 2 1-drops, or a Devoted Druid.
TL;DR : for me, T1 SS is quite an automatic win if your opponent has a lot of spot removals, no sweepers in hand, and not a huuuge package of discard (because he then can discard key cards and let your dorks live). A bit limitated isn't it ?
Only Jeskai and probably some (not all) Jund/Junk fits this description...
The only other trix I think about is against Walking Ballista. Want to kill some elves ? Good, let me draw like crazy ! But if you already play Stony Silence, that's under effective.
I like your rationale on SS regarding the t1 problem. However, I still don't like slowing our mana production down for a card that doesn't help us beat board wipes. Our opponents post board can easily cast no spot removal and still beat us with a 2-4 mana wrath. In that scenario, it draws us no cards and we lose. I also don't like not playing a t1 dork, and then just getting out tempo'd when jund or shadow sticks a t2 fatty and beats face before our slow card draw, that our opponents can control by using removal conservatively, matters. For these reasons, I think that lead the stampede and lifecrafter's bestiary are superior choices.
Would Elves fare very well in a No Ban List Modern tournament? Our LGS is planning one and I'm eager to test out the deck with Glimpse of Nature and Green Sun's Zenith. Will this build push out Collected Company and Chord of Calling? Will Skullclamp make the cut? Now that I think about it, I have no idea how to build Elves in this meta. Any suggestions/advice will be appreciated
@Kauridt
Is your choice of GW over abzan for the sideboarding cards ? If you play only 2 Shamans, you are still able to play your W sideboard. You already chose the fetch route anyway. (I wonder why if you stay 2 colors...)
I think your list is OK, but you miss something to counter Titanshift.
You're also very light for Death's Shadow match up (and it's more than 10% of the competitive meta). I feel you're too light on anything grindy. Kataki always has an impact, even if just a small one. It can range to total blast to not really powerful.
Is Stony Silence for anything else affinity ?
About Nettle, I'm wondering if I should cut one for Narnam Renegade. Not that I will trigger Revolt that often, but it can keep Tarmo / Tasigur / Shadow / Smasher at bay. Even ambush them on a CoCo or Chord.
For Shapers' Sanctuary, I'm trying to find out its real value. Can't really help, but I'll be interested in your opinion about it.
Shapers Sanctury: Best Card in my Sideboard! I would never ever play elves again without that card. Its just awesome when its on your starting Hand and even if you draw it on Turn 4, you know that every elf you play, i a point of thinking about for you opponent. Does he want me to draw or not. Very good bouspoint of Sanctury is that it triggers, when your creatures are targeted, so your enemy targets an elf and you draw a chord, you can response by tapping the elf for chord and maybe regenerate him with a chorded ezuri.
Clouds:)
@Clouds could you tell more about why you think Shapers sanctuary is so good in your sideboard? Is it a meta thing or?
I am so indecisive about that card. I have a big tournament the 11th of Feb.
I might be a heretic, but I'm wondering if people consider Shapers' Sanctuary a very good card because of a mental flaw.
That is, we all fear that our elves might be removed from the board. An empty board and no cards to cast is basically a nightmare. But when you play Shapers' Sanctuary, that fear vanishes, because you know every single elf you play will actually do something (staying on board or let you draw). Thus, one can overestimate a game situation after having cast SS, because there's less pressure.
When you do that, you put a value on your mental pressure... that has nothing to do on the game situation Even if Lead the Stampede, for exemple, could give you as much cards as SS, it doesn't have this relaxing effect.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just wanted to investigate this possibility.
Idk, the idea of topdecking an SS, or multiples vs jund on turn 4 after removal has been slung at relevant elves gives me angina. Vs a lead, which is always good regardless of my opponent's draw and hits 3 elves on average. Or a lifecrafter's bestiary, which is an auto win in long games.
Zenith is a much better card than chord, mainly because it is a split card between acceleration on turn one (zenith for zero fetches dryad arbor) and a late game bomb.
Unfortunately there is a problem in that it can only tutor green creatures. So you would either have to drop white and play g/b with zenith instead of chords, or play both chords and zeniths in a g/w list. I don't know which route would be better.
Do someone has news from the 2 Elves players at Pro Tour RIX ?
One went to day2 but isn't on the final deck tables (>=18pts).
Since there were draft rounds, it's hard to know how they really went.
Hey all, i run a pretty standard g/w list. With a meta of jeskai and uw control (i think maybe 50-60%) is choke a good hoser for these decks? Or have you all any success with another card that will win those games by itself?
Hey all, i run a pretty standard g/w list. With a meta of jeskai and uw control (i think maybe 50-60%) is choke a good hoser for these decks? Or have you all any success with another card that will win those games by itself?
Obviously Jeskai is just our hardest MU, especially GW. Sharpers Sanctuary is good, but if you get it early, terrible top deck. I have been running Sigarda, Host of Herons. Not sure how I feel about it, but I like it so far. Good against Control, good agsinst living end decks, good against emrakul, lili, so it is useful.
Hey guys. It's been a while since I posted here. Glad to see the Elf community continues to go strong. I would like to comment on a couple things that will hopefully spark some meaningful discussion.
Firstly it's awesome that Elves placed in a GP yesterday!! They were featured playing against burn which we won by a landslide - no surprise there.
Secondly. Guys.. This is serious. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf have been unbanned. What will this mean for us moving forward? Are we boned with the rise of midrange and control?
Edit: Will Jund Elves be a thing? BBE into Shaman sounds pretty sweet though whiffing on a dork seems more likely. I do like the aggressive nature of going Jund by having another 3/2 body except with haste and the ability to 2 for 1. With coco that's eight 2 for 1s which is great for recovering from boardwipes. We'll also have access to magus of the moon.
I’m almost thinking replacing CoCo with BBE? That will keep the mana cost in check and increase creature count. BBE into Lead the Stampede is sexy. Lead will hit even more too, since CoCo becomes creatures. Jund Lead Elves anyone?
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
On paper, I prefer Lifecrafter's Bestiary. Because once on the battlefield (assuming it's not countered), you just need to play an elf to draw a card. You have more elves in your deck than your opponent has spot removals. What's more, the scry option is here to ensure you can top a creature to start drawing, even if your hand is empty.
On the other hand, I want to talk about the "you don't want to drop SS T1". Actually, when you bring SS in, you absolutely want to cast it T1. You always bring it in MU where elves are removed from the board with Bolt, Push, and all kind of spot removals. Sooo... Your T1 elf isn't going to live past the T1. You won't untap with it.
Playing T1 mana dork is offering a trade to your opponent : 1 card (and your explosivity) VS 1 card (spot removal). When you play T1 SS, you don't offer your opponent the possibilty to trade anything. If he kept mana up, it's all for naught this turn. What's more, when your dork will hit the battlefield, the trade will read : 1 card (a spot removal) VS cycling a dork into a draw. Much less attractive... Let's bet that this time, your T2 dork will stay on the board. What's more, T2, you can play 2 1-drops, or a Devoted Druid.
TL;DR : for me, T1 SS is quite an automatic win if your opponent has a lot of spot removals, no sweepers in hand, and not a huuuge package of discard (because he then can discard key cards and let your dorks live). A bit limitated isn't it ?
Only Jeskai and probably some (not all) Jund/Junk fits this description...
The only other trix I think about is against Walking Ballista. Want to kill some elves ? Good, let me draw like crazy ! But if you already play Stony Silence, that's under effective.
I'll cut my 3rd Nettle for Visionnary. I feel I might need some extra lord to make those Dorks effective (Elvish Champion ?), so I might change it. Not sure... Sylvan Messenger might also be a candidate, as well as Essence Warden who can sneakily buy us one or two more turn of survivability if unanswered.
Palefang Dawnfall
Mirror < Ezuri, and with combo, Mirror < Ezuri < Duskwatch.
RE: "IDK if you read my comment all the way through" - no I didn't read your original comment, only the new one. Nice to know you didn't drop all your nondork nonheritage 1 drops. It's still strange to replace nettle with visionary. The way you do replacements, you change your curve up. If one is aiming to put devoted druids into the deck, it is a lot more straightforward to drop the next weakest 2 drop. This has led me to drop visionary. Straight GW would have dropped their flex like E Witt or Ooze, but I already have Shaman in those slots. That could be why we're diverging here. When changing up slots however, I don't look across the same cmc generally.
On your finishing point - you've boarded out Heritage druid? We're definitely on different frequencies here. Nettle, certainly comes out for more suitable one drops like essence warden. But I've not heard or seen in any elves gameplay footage of people taking out Heritage.
edit: typos
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Yes, it is a lot more straight forward to drop visionary. But reluctance to divulge from 4x nettle is one of the factors keeping modern elves down. For a very small cost against combo/big mana, where we still consistently t3 or t4, we can greatly improve our matchup against midrange and control, which comprises a massive percentage of the modern meta. Having visionaries + horizon canopies to cantrip along with 4 cocos all maindeck gives us a very solid game against mid variants, and a crazy positive matchup vs 8-rack.
It's matchup dependent, but when people board in interaction, nettle and heritage are our worst cards. I definitely board out all my nettle sentinels first, but I only have two. So heritage druid is frequently next. Sometimes chord is shaved instead, or a mix of both. It depends.
I like your rationale on SS regarding the t1 problem. However, I still don't like slowing our mana production down for a card that doesn't help us beat board wipes. Our opponents post board can easily cast no spot removal and still beat us with a 2-4 mana wrath. In that scenario, it draws us no cards and we lose. I also don't like not playing a t1 dork, and then just getting out tempo'd when jund or shadow sticks a t2 fatty and beats face before our slow card draw, that our opponents can control by using removal conservatively, matters. For these reasons, I think that lead the stampede and lifecrafter's bestiary are superior choices.
@Clouds could you tell more about why you think Shapers sanctuary is so good in your sideboard? Is it a meta thing or?
I am so indecisive about that card. I have a big tournament the 11th of Feb.
That is, we all fear that our elves might be removed from the board. An empty board and no cards to cast is basically a nightmare. But when you play Shapers' Sanctuary, that fear vanishes, because you know every single elf you play will actually do something (staying on board or let you draw). Thus, one can overestimate a game situation after having cast SS, because there's less pressure.
When you do that, you put a value on your mental pressure... that has nothing to do on the game situation Even if Lead the Stampede, for exemple, could give you as much cards as SS, it doesn't have this relaxing effect.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just wanted to investigate this possibility.
Palefang Dawnfall
Unfortunately there is a problem in that it can only tutor green creatures. So you would either have to drop white and play g/b with zenith instead of chords, or play both chords and zeniths in a g/w list. I don't know which route would be better.
One went to day2 but isn't on the final deck tables (>=18pts).
Since there were draft rounds, it's hard to know how they really went.
Palefang Dawnfall
Long time no speak guys! Wanted to share this little gem with you. Sorry to ruin the 5-0 Partee, Pardee.
Obviously Jeskai is just our hardest MU, especially GW. Sharpers Sanctuary is good, but if you get it early, terrible top deck. I have been running Sigarda, Host of Herons. Not sure how I feel about it, but I like it so far. Good against Control, good agsinst living end decks, good against emrakul, lili, so it is useful.
Firstly it's awesome that Elves placed in a GP yesterday!! They were featured playing against burn which we won by a landslide - no surprise there.
Secondly. Guys.. This is serious. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf have been unbanned. What will this mean for us moving forward? Are we boned with the rise of midrange and control?
Edit: Will Jund Elves be a thing? BBE into Shaman sounds pretty sweet though whiffing on a dork seems more likely. I do like the aggressive nature of going Jund by having another 3/2 body except with haste and the ability to 2 for 1. With coco that's eight 2 for 1s which is great for recovering from boardwipes. We'll also have access to magus of the moon.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4