Bushwacker decks, Infect, Humans, etc are all fast decks. It really just depends on what you like and what your meta is like.
Ive tried 2 different bushwhacker decks, didn’t love either of them. Tried infect, didn’t like that either. Humans seems interesting, but kind of boring like Merfolk. Looking for a fun explosive deck that makes you actually think, like Elves. lol. That’s why I was considering trying out Dredge as a 2nd deck.
Some good suggestions there... What about Burn?
Storm?
There's a guy at my LGS that runs a Solemnity deck; if he gets all the pieces and his opponent has no disruption or removal, he can get turn 4 wins pretty regularly...
My main deck is GB Elves, but when I want to switch gears, I have had fun playing around with R/G Ponza
I’m also a GB Elf player. I love it. I can’t even consider going GW, I need my Shaman! Lol. I have such a hard time keeping a 2nd deck. They just don’t satisfy me like Elves do. Lol.
On a side note. Has anyone completely foiled out their decks? I just need foil Cavern of Souls and I’m not sure I want to buy those. Lol
I have to disagree. Yes it sucks to have multiple copies in hand, or to draw another, but I find that Ezuri doesn't always stick on the board long enough. And if it does, you usually are winning that turn. I personally run four copies for that reason. Am I wrong? Maybe
You should run 4 ezuri in any elf deck with the devoted/vizier combo. I like to run 1 mirror entity in addition to the 4th ezuri in order to combat surgical extractions, pithing needles, lost legacy, phyrexian revokers, etc. It's also just another mana sink/payoff.
I don't think that shaman and vizier combo belong in the same deck. There just isn't room. If you're running 4 archdruid, 4 ezuri, 1 mirror entity, and 4 shaman, thing are getting real clogged at 3. I could potentially see shaman as a 1 of chord target, but I'm still lukewarm on that. If it ever ends up in your opener, it's unlikely to contribute to winning the game unless you face heavy interaction. Along with the mana base being more painful. At this time, I think gw vizier elves is pretty clearly the best way to go. Even against interactive decks, where shaman would help, vizier combo represents an oops I win button that midrange/control have to respect. It forces them to spend interaction on 2 mana 0/2s. And the deck is very big on value otherwise. In addition to 4 coco, you have 4 dwynen's elite, + horizon canopy. I've also been trimming on nettle sentinels for elvish visionaries, which further contributes to our value gameplan. The biggest loss from cutting black is thoughtseize, which is one of the cleanest ways to answer sweepers. However, I think the percentage points added elsewhere by not having a painful mana base while having access to more versatile white sideboard cards is still better against the field tho.
This is coming from someone who loves shaman of the pack, and has played both builds of elves. Outside of very specific metagames, we need to be able to consistently race combo. That means t3 wins. Gw is much better at pulling that off.
Actually, both the vizier combo and shaman of the pack help race combo decks. They perform the same role which is making the deck more explosive; it's not true that shaman is good against interactive decks because you need many elves on board for shaman to be good.
The difference is that the gw combo build is even faster, with the possibility of turn 3 wins but has to play some quite bad cards like devoted druid, vizier of remedies, and the full 4 copies of ezuri and chord; the gb build instead, while being slightly slower, has a better card quality (shaman of the pack and elvish visionary are better cards in a vacuum than devoted druid and vizier)and can afford to trim some copies of ezuri and chord.
As a result, i think the gb build is a bit better against interaction (not because shaman is generically good against interaction, but just because you play 3/2s rather than 0/2s and less chords); it's true that often opponents are forced to spend removal on devoted druid, but in the end sometimes you're in topdeck mode and find a useless 0/2 or worse company into 0/2s.
I don't know if the two builds can be merged, and i'm a bit skeptical because it would mean raising the curve significantly, cutting one drops like nettle sentinel or cutting some combo pieces while still playing the combo.
Actually, both the vizier combo and shaman of the pack help race combo decks. They perform the same role which is making the deck more explosive; it's not true that shaman is good against interactive decks because you need many elves on board for shaman to be good.
The difference is that the gw combo build is even faster, with the possibility of turn 3 wins but has to play some quite bad cards like devoted druid, vizier of remedies, and the full 4 copies of ezuri and chord; the gb build instead, while being slightly slower, has a better card quality (shaman of the pack and elvish visionary are better cards in a vacuum than devoted druid and vizier)and can afford to trim some copies of ezuri and chord.
As a result, i think the gb build is a bit better against interaction (not because shaman is generically good against interaction, but just because you play 3/2s rather than 0/2s and less chords); it's true that often opponents are forced to spend removal on devoted druid, but in the end sometimes you're in topdeck mode and find a useless 0/2 or worse company into 0/2s.
I don't know if the two builds can be merged, and i'm a bit skeptical because it would mean raising the curve significantly, cutting one drops like nettle sentinel or cutting some combo pieces while still playing the combo.
Leocop. Shaman is a slower win con than devoted combo. It is another win condition, but it is slower than what gw brings to the table by a turn. It is for this reason that "shaman helps race combo" isn't an accurate statement. GB is worse at racing combo than GW.
Devoted druid is actually quite good, even against interactive decks. If t1 dork is interacted with, devoted is a solid turn 2 play that makes up lost tempo. Although it isnt good at executing a combat damage based backup plan, 2 devoted druids + ezuri or devoted druid + vizier is a win. Vizier of remedies is a 1 of, so it hardly contributes to average card quality.
My build of gw currently runs elvish visionaries in place of nettle sentinels, so I disagree about "average card quality". GW also gets 4 horizon canopy, which improves consistency and grinding over GB. Every build of elves should be on 4 ezuri and 4 chord, unless you are metagaming with maindeck lead. Lead is too slow to be maindecked in an open field. Chord is great, it finds bullets post board and game winning threats g1. Similarly, we want 4 ezuri because he is critical to victory, and if not answered immediately, will win the game whether another is stranded in hand or not.
You are absolutely wrong about shaman being bad against interaction. That's where he shines. Even decks running tons of removal spells cant hope to answer all our elves. We are always left with a board leftover. Shaman turns our random 1/1s into serious damage against interactive decks, furthering our combat damage based game plan. Even if shaman comes down on an empty board, he's still helping get our opponent dead better than an archdruid or ezuri would. Shaman is our best elf, alongside visionary and dwynen's elite, against interaction.
No, I don't think that list is worth it. Mana is way more painful, you don't get to run nykthos, pendelhaven, or 4 canopy. And I still feel like devoted druid and shaman don't belong in the same deck. Shaman contributes to a combat damage based win con, where devoted wants you to combo off with ezuri, archdruid or mirror entity. I'd rather be all in on GW's game plan. It's more consistent.
I know that shaman is slower than devoted druid combo, but it's still an explosive card. Older builds of the deck, when shaman and vizier or remedies didn't exist, had a hard time winning on turn 4, whereas with shaman in your deck you are almost assured to win turn 4 against no interaction.
Saying that devoted druid is goo against interactive deck is a very big stretch. Yes, they usually spend removal on it, and it produces mana, but it is still "air". An o/2 is not a card you want to have in your deck in an attrition war, and you will basically never be able to combo off against deck like jund, grixis or jeskai.
If you run elvish visionary instead of nettle sentinel, well that's a choice i won't argue with,but there are downsides, namely losing some of the deck best opening hands with heritage druid plus two other one drops.
I absolutely disagree with the fact that every build of elves should run 4 copies of ezuri and chord. In the combo version it is necessary because they are combo pieces, but ezuri is 1)legendary and 2) just a grey ogre when they are killing your stuff and you don't have the mana to activate him. The same goes for chord, which is terribly clunky when youare not able to have a big board and generate lots of mana. In my non combo builds i never run more than 3 ezuri and usually split chords between main and side.
Regarding shaman being good against interaction i think that's just wrong. A card is good against interaction when it's hard to kill or produces card advantage. Collected company, elvish visionary, dwynen's elite, lead the stampede, chameleon colossus, thrun are good cards against interaction. A 3/2 for 2 that maybe shocks the opponent is not.
Of course shaman is going to do the most damage when our board isn't answered. But the incremental damage it offers every time we play it on a board with just a few dudes is our most effective tool against interactive decks, where we have to default to a combat damage based backup plan. No, it isn't great value in the traditional sense, but it's valuable to us as it will frequently represent between 3-5 damage even after all the removal spells have been slung. That's my experience with the card at least.
I was skeptical of devoted druid against interaction as well, but it's not air when A. They have to remove it and B. If not removed, it threatens to win the game alongside 1 or 2 additional cards. Getting those 1 or 2 additional cards is not a big stretch when we have so many routes to cycle/accrue advantage, like coco, visionary, and horizon canopy. It does this, in addition to filling the role of a proactive 2 that doesn't require a 1 drop to be good (we don't want to play dwynen's elite on 2, but we need to use mana efficiently), and making up lost tempo vs. removal. I've stopped boarding out the vizier combo vs midrange and control, and been happy with it so far.
Currently, I'm on a 2-2 split for visionaries and nettle sentinels. Sentinel is the worst card in elves. Yes, it can contribute to silly stuff a turn 2 collected company. But most of the time, when we just want to activate a heritage druid t2, any other 1 drop would fill the same role. Frequently, if we hit a t1 dork, then llanowar/mystic/heritage + heritage does the same thing as a nettle sentinel in terms of mana production. Currently, I'm only running sentinel to maintain a high density of 1 drops for heritage druid. I can see myself going to 4 visionary, or 2 visionary 2 boreal druid.
I won't go in circles with you on 4 chord 4 ezuri, so I'll just make my final points here. In GW combo, it is 200% correct to run 4 and 4. Period. They are your win cons. You want as many as possible. You are a combo deck. In GB, the topic is a little more up for discussion, depending on the meta. However, with the state of modern, I feel as though maindeck lead is extremely greedy in an open field. Yes, Ezuri and chord are at their worse when you look at them vs control and midrange. But even in those matchups, we will frequently have time to chord for our best creature against them, whether it's elite, visionary, etc. And we want 4 ezuri because he is exceedingly likely to be answered on sight. Therefore, we need as many ezuri as possible so that we can eventually land one and have it stick to the board. Sure, he's a 3 mana 2/2 by himself, but so are most of our payoff cards. They're terrible by themselves, but quickly get much better with 2 or 3 elves on the board. When we get to the late game vs mid and control, and we have 5 mana in play so we can just activate ezuri the old fashioned way, he's easily our best payoff.
Hi guys !
I've been a long time Elves player (since two years now), and I'm trying to come back to competitive level for my local GP. There are a lot of choices I had to do to come with my current list, and I'm unsure of many of them. I'd be glad if you can correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
I felt "common" GB lists lack of fast ways to kill. Sure, you can extend and kill with Shaman and Ezuri, but I felt I need to pressure even more opponents like Storm, and anything that can wrath me before I'm big enough. So, I went for GW, with Vizier of remedies and Devoted Druid combo. Sure, it makes flashy wins but that's not the main point. Druid is amazing by herself. I mean, she can produce 2 mana in a single turn, is 0/2 (hence protected from pings). Even if our dork is killed, she will enable Collected Company by herself and quite a Chord of Calling. And, she is a must-answered card. As stated before, being here is a threat in itself : we can fast combo at any moment.
(Small Edit here to refer to previous posts : Devoted Druid does the same 'untap thing' as Nettle and thus combo with Heritage Druid. Once per game (unless you pump it), but usually, you don't do 2 flashy 'starts' with the same Druid It can also serve to have a tricky blocker or attacker and to wrong maths of dizzy opponent. In that regard, I think Elvish Visionnary was more 'air' than Druid. When I play druid, I put pressure, enable silly things. The card in itself advance greatly our plan. When I play Visionnary, I'm more like : "okay, I sink 2 mana into drawing" for a 1/1 that won't do anything unless it can be 'activated' by something else (Ezuri, mainly). When i'm in attrition matches, I like Visionnary on topdeck to dig and have a 1/1 on board. But I surely hate to have it in opening hand, because that just slow me.)
So, I delved in GW... But I felt I laked something. Shaman of the pack is too good to pass on. Especially against Death's Shadow. What's more, the combo is hated and blocked by opponent 60% of the time (that's the whole point of having it I'd say), so we need something else to race.
From there, I went to Abzan. I had to cut cards to fit 2 Shaman of the Pack. In the end, I went down to 3 Nettle Sentinel because this is often a card I side out. (Heritage Druid get all the hate and combo-ing with Nettle become less and less a reality. And you can do it with Devoted Druid anyway. What's more, in attrition matches, Nettle not untapping can be hell). Ezuri, Renegade Leader has been down to 3, from 4 in classic GW lists. I felt I couldn't cut an Elvish Archdruid, and I was only playing 3 Ezuri in GB anyway. But I'm not sure of this. Another drawback is that I can't (can I ?) have silver bullets main deck. Not even a Selfless Spirit or Spellskite.
Another question is : Chord of Calling or Lead the Stampede ? GB, I went for 1/4, but as Abzan, I went for 3/2. I like how Lead can get our HAND full. Not the board that is. You can overextend a bit, play lead, and you have enough fuel even if you are wrath-ed. When it comes to attrition matches against Junk / Jund / Mardu / EldraTron, this card is gold and a good Lead can win a game when a bad one (two or less low value cards) won't kill us. Thus, I felt I cannot go under 3 Chords, or the combo and few Shamans I have would become irrevelent. So, only 2 Leads.
When it comes to the manabase, I don't feel I need fetches so far. 6 sources of black for 2 shamans feel alright. 6 sources of white for the white cards feel a bit tight, but I can Cavern into Cleric (2 cards) Spirit (3 cards) or Wizard (2 cards). In some MU, I even trigger my 2nd cavern for one of these.
Above all, I don't want to hit me too much, as a confortable 20 life means a lot of time to build your board. (And what about the Burn match up ?)
That was about the main deck. But what I'm the most unsure of (if not totally in a thick fog) is the sideboard.
As Abzan, I can't go deep into colored non-creature spells. So I decided to put an emphasis on silver bullets. As I do so, I want other silver bullets enablers, and I choose Eldritch Evolution above the 4th Chord. Evo T2, sacrifice a Llanowar, and you can bring your bullet as fast as T2. That's more convincing to me than trying to Chord a Eidolon of Rethoric to lock Storm... on T3.
The bullets are well-known, I won't discuss too much about them and their utility. But I raise another problem : number of slots ! I want to put more Eldritch Evolutions, to ensure locking Storm / Affinity, and to make my combo more dense and faster when I need to / have the opportunity. Another issue is playing other silver bullets : I feel naked against EldraTron (Revoker is the only bullet...). I'd be glad to bring in Tajuru Preserver and Magus of the Moon. (Magus is a pet card of mine in Elves, and shutdown so many decks like Tron, EldraTron, Death's Shadow, Humans...) Elvish Champion didn't make the cut, but might if enough G decks make their way.
About the other cards : Rest in Peace is really versatile and deals a serious blow to Mardu midrange, Storm, Death's Shadow, Dredge, Living end...). But I can't search for it unfortunately. So, I also have a Scavenging Ooze to search for, even if he doesn't do Rest in Peace formidable work.
Shapers' Sanctuary is the newest card in my sideboard, and the one I am the most puzzled with. It can be good against heavy removals decks, netting you 3-6 cards if played early, but it's a total waste when it comes T3+ I'd say. So, I was wondering why not playing Lead the Stampede above Sanctuary : it will do its work even if drew T3+ and make you see 5 cards, quite all nonlands ('xcept for CoCo and Chords) are put in hand. It will give a bit less cards, but only creatures. (That is to say, no unwanted lands, nor trump cards). Last, but not least, it takes two slots, that can't be used for silver bullets. We can search for bullets, while we have to open a hand with Sanctuary for it to be worth.
I'm still testing it, because it's my only hope to have decent MU against Jeskai control, but I'm really looking for your thoughts about the card.
Thanks a lot for reading, I'd be glad to have your opinions guys !
re: Vizier combo being "weak" against interactive decks. I think that if you know what you're going, it can be very hard indeed to not at least get value from the combo. The thing about having vizier in elves is that you play just one and your deck is aggro, so u can slowroll a couple of elves, and beat down while leaving lands and devoted untapped. Chording for a vizier with removal on the stack is a common move. Basically if they let you untap with devoted, they're in trouble. Visionary is nice but compared to the threat factor that devoted presents, there just is no fight.
re: mashing GW and GB. I've done it with moderate success. I play 2 ezuries, 1 duskwatch, 3 shamans. My manabase is mostly painless save 1 temple garden which is supposed to be a horizon canopy, the rest of my manabase looks like the typical GB. I simply assume the risk of drawing my 1 vizier. If that ever happens I'll have to play cavern/territory on Human or hope I drew my Garden. So if I land the 2 combo creatures and have either chord, ezuri, or duskwatch in hand I will win. Which is enough ways. The duskwatch replaces a possible 3rd ezuri because even in interactive matches he can help generate some cards before dying.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
What do you cut from the main 'core' build to play up to 3 shamans, 2 Ezuries and 1 Duskwatch ? And why do you call it a moderate success ? Last but not least, how do you coope with Abzan sideboard ?
Personnaly, I'll stick with 3 Ezuris. You never know which Ezuri is gonna stick and pump the team. But I acknowledge it can do some good work.
Hey all, Veteran elves player here. As some of you know I have played all versions with in the abzan colours. I have played alot of GPs and other big tournaments.
But I have been on a break and now I wanna get back in gear and again play at the highest level.
I am in the same position as Palefang_Dawnfall, I just like another kind of elves deck. I like high impact sideboard cards IE Stony silence, RIP over chord targets. I do play silver bullets tho..
I am looking for feedback on my list, both sideboard and MD.
What do you think of the main deck? What do you think of the sideboard? Is anything odd?
Things I ponder over. Is Kataki good enough? Is shapers sanctuary really good? Better then lead? Is there a high impact sideboard card for the meta I am missing?
Is a single ton lead in the main wrong? I am not a fan of nettle but the alternatives are worse...
@Kauridt
Is your choice of GW over abzan for the sideboarding cards ? If you play only 2 Shamans, you are still able to play your W sideboard. You already chose the fetch route anyway. (I wonder why if you stay 2 colors...)
I think your list is OK, but you miss something to counter Titanshift.
You're also very light for Death's Shadow match up (and it's more than 10% of the competitive meta). I feel you're too light on anything grindy. Kataki always has an impact, even if just a small one. It can range to total blast to not really powerful.
Is Stony Silence for anything else affinity ?
About Nettle, I'm wondering if I should cut one for Narnam Renegade. Not that I will trigger Revolt that often, but it can keep Tarmo / Tasigur / Shadow / Smasher at bay. Even ambush them on a CoCo or Chord.
For Shapers' Sanctuary, I'm trying to find out its real value. Can't really help, but I'll be interested in your opinion about it.
Idk if you guys are referring to my comments about the strength of visionary, but I don't know of any discussion where visionary over devoted druid was considered. That is absolutely not a change that should be made. Visionary over nettle, on the other hand, is very reasonable.
I don't think any build of elves with duskwatch recruiter is correct. It's a bad infinite mana payoff that abzan coco is priced into running, not because they want to but because they need it. The point of playing vizier in elves is that we already have a good infinite mana payoff in ezuri. If you want to diversify infinite mana payoffs, play mirror entity.
On the topic of shaper's sanctuary, i think that card is real bad. You always want to play a mana dork t1. Sanctuary isn't strong enough to lead on over a t1 dork. However, a t1 dork is the most important elf for the opponent to remove. So already, it conflicts with our t1 play, and is therefore weak in the early game since our opponent is likely to remove our 1 drop before we untap. In the late game, it's utter trash. You topdeck it when both players are out of gas, with a couple 1/1s on your board, and get steamrolled by goyfs + shadows. I just don't see anywhere on the curve where it's good. Even on t2, we'd rather be pulling heritage druid shenanigans or deploying a 3 drop with our dork. Lead and lifecrafter's bestiary seem like way better options to me.
Idk if you guys are referring to my comments about the strength of visionary, but I don't know of any discussion where visionary over devoted druid was considered. That is absolutely not a change that should be made. Visionary over nettle, on the other hand, is very reasonable.
I don't think any build of elves with duskwatch recruiter is correct. It's a bad infinite mana payoff that abzan coco is priced into running, not because they want to but because they need it. The point of playing vizier in elves is that we already have a good infinite mana payoff in ezuri. If you want to diversify infinite mana payoffs, play mirror entity.
On the topic of shaper's sanctuary, i think that card is real bad. You always want to play a mana dork t1. Sanctuary isn't strong enough to lead on over a t1 dork. However, a t1 dork is the most important elf for the opponent to remove. So already, it conflicts with our t1 play, and is therefore weak in the early game since our opponent is likely to remove our 1 drop before we untap. In the late game, it's utter trash. You topdeck it when both players are out of gas, with a couple 1/1s on your board, and get steamrolled by goyfs + shadows. I just don't see anywhere on the curve where it's good. Even on t2, we'd rather be pulling heritage druid shenanigans or deploying a 3 drop with our dork. Lead and lifecrafter's bestiary seem like way better options to me.
RE: Duskwatch. We think differently then. Your comments hint that you have not even tried Duskwatch yet, though I might be wrong. If you have infinite mana online, a duskwatch will bring your ezuri anyway. The difference is it also brings the rest of your deck with it. So saying Ezuri is a better infinite mana outlet is flat out wrong. It can be superior when the game is going "average" and you have enough mana to pump ezuri once (perhaps you have 4 elves and archdruid in play with 3 lands), where all a duskwatch will do is draw u a couple of cards. If you're arguing about combo payoff, there is no fight at all. Duskwatch will pull all the creatures in the deck into your hand, and then it doesn't matter what your opponent is holding, because you can cast shamans for 30 drain each, play an ezuri and activate it, and play ALL your silver bullets. Against an attrition deck, Duskwatch will also prove superior to Ezuri simply by replacing itself with a selected card, where ezuri will eat the next removal and disappear. Mirror Entity is a HORRIBLE suggestion. No trample, you need to have white to cast it which is not a guarantee. Don't forget your infinite mana is all green. If you were going to run Mirror, then just play another Ezuri. If you need a 5th Ezuri, you really want Duskwatch, because Duskwatch WILL get you your Ezuri with the combo online. And also every other elf in the deck.
RE: Visionary/Nettle/Devoted. I did not see your comments. Nonetheless we are on the same topic. I don't compare cards of different cmc in a deck like this. Nettle competes with Essence Warden, Copperhorn Scout, Heritage, and Dorks. Naturally we don't touch heritage and dorks, so you would see some combination typically of the first 3. The reason you don't replace your 1 drops with 2 drops is because it affects your heritage starts. And you never want to see that. Now at the 2 cmc slot you have Elites, Visionaries, Vizier/Druid combo, Ooze, spellskite, the latter 2 being very much meta calls. Visionary naturally gets pitted against Devoted quite simply because they share the cmc, and visionary, unlike elite, does not work with Heritage. We value our heritage starts very much, so visionary is the one that naturally gets cut. Hence you see your top8 vizier elves typically carrying 0 visionaries. Not because the card is bad, but simply because its spot in the curve has been occupied by a game-ending combo. Thank goodness I didn't splurge on the FNM foils.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
What do you cut from the main 'core' build to play up to 3 shamans, 2 Ezuries and 1 Duskwatch ? And why do you call it a moderate success ? Last but not least, how do you coope with Abzan sideboard ?
Personnaly, I'll stick with 3 Ezuris. You never know which Ezuri is gonna stick and pump the team. But I acknowledge it can do some good work.
The thing about the combo is this: if I have the combo online and chord in my hand, I will go for duskwatch and not ezuri. The reason is that chording for Duskwatch puts every elf in the deck into my hand, and I have the mana to play them all. So even if the opponent has path-snap-path for your elves that are able to attack this turn, it won't stop the other 28 elves next turn, or the drain from the shamans.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
White has the best sideboard cards stony, rip, path and much more. When you wanna play these cards you need at least 9 white sources I play 10.. what is why I have two fetch lands to make the number of white sources high enough.
What card would you play against Titanahift?
RIP and path are good Vs DS I would love to find room for a lead in the sideboard, but can't seem to find room for anything
Stony Silence comes in against tron and E-tron, lantern... And other random artifacts
Narnam is a trap, not going there.. I think I'll cut a Nettle Sentinel for a visonary.
Sanctuary I think is good against jeskai and that is too narrow.. ill try. Life crafter's beastery instead in the sideboard.
RE: Mirror entity. Your comments hint that you have not even tried mirror entity yet, though I might be wrong Mirror entity is good because if ezuri is interacted with through a phyrexian revoker, surgical extraction, pithing needle, etc we still have another out to combo. It also serves as 5th ezuri. The frequency with which your opponent will have enough blockers to fight through a minimum of 3 infinite attack creatures is nil. It also gives you a maindeck out to living end. Activate it for 0 and you get all your dudes back post living end. Honestly, the fact that you are decrying mirror entity so much makes me positive you haven't played it. The card is outstanding. It is much better than duskwatch. Your argument about ezuri eating a removal spell, therefore duskwatch is just silliness. How often do you play a duskwatch and have 3 mana left over to activate before your opponent gets a chance to kill it? How often do you have time or want to spend 3 mana putting a creature in your hand? Duskwatch is a bad payoff card because it is not an elf, is extremely slow, and is unnecessary when we already have ezuri and mirror entity that are 1. Elves 2. Are naturally good in our deck 3. Are already good infinite mana payoffs. Duskwatch is clunky and bad in any draw where we don't produce infinite mana, which happens a good % of the time since we aren't all in on vizier combo. As for the white mana, unless you have a terrible mana base, 1 white should not be a problem. Entity's activated ability is generic mana.
On the topic of visionary/nettle. Idk if you read my comment all the way through, but I said that I am running 2 nettle in order to maintain a high density of 1 drops. All the other 1 drop elves, besides boreal druid, are worse. However, when it comes to nettle enabling heritage druid draws, most of the time, any other 1 drop would be effectively the same as a nettle. Very rarely can we produce 3 mana with heritage twice on t2. It requires t1 1 drop into t2 heritage nettle make 3 dwynen's elite. Exceedingly unlikely, and in most draws, where we just want to play a 3 drop with our heritage druid, any of our other 1 drops would be just as good as a nettle. So the question is how many 1 drops do we need to consistently enable t2 druid? Dwynen's elite enables druid as well, so I think 14 is more than enough. This is why I am playing a split with visionary. It's a good proactive 2 in grindy matchups where t1 is interacted with, and if we have infinite mana with no payoff, it can help dig to our outs. Comparing visionary to nettle sentinel is far more reasonable than matching it against devoted druid. And just because two cards differ by 1 cmc, does not mean considering 1 in place of the other is out of the question. Your logic will lead to stymied deck building and hinder innovation.
Also, finishing point on the nettle/heritage issue, it is common knowledge that heritage and nettle are the weakest links in modern elves. They contribute to our most busted draws, but are also independently our worst cards. They are most frequently boarded out as well. Putting too much stock in the power of low impact 1 drops is a path to failure. Makes all our bad matchups much worse, and our good ones only very marginally better.
Ive tried 2 different bushwhacker decks, didn’t love either of them. Tried infect, didn’t like that either. Humans seems interesting, but kind of boring like Merfolk. Looking for a fun explosive deck that makes you actually think, like Elves. lol. That’s why I was considering trying out Dredge as a 2nd deck.
I’m also a GB Elf player. I love it. I can’t even consider going GW, I need my Shaman! Lol. I have such a hard time keeping a 2nd deck. They just don’t satisfy me like Elves do. Lol.
On a side note. Has anyone completely foiled out their decks? I just need foil Cavern of Souls and I’m not sure I want to buy those. Lol
This is coming from someone who loves shaman of the pack, and has played both builds of elves. Outside of very specific metagames, we need to be able to consistently race combo. That means t3 wins. Gw is much better at pulling that off.
The difference is that the gw combo build is even faster, with the possibility of turn 3 wins but has to play some quite bad cards like devoted druid, vizier of remedies, and the full 4 copies of ezuri and chord; the gb build instead, while being slightly slower, has a better card quality (shaman of the pack and elvish visionary are better cards in a vacuum than devoted druid and vizier)and can afford to trim some copies of ezuri and chord.
As a result, i think the gb build is a bit better against interaction (not because shaman is generically good against interaction, but just because you play 3/2s rather than 0/2s and less chords); it's true that often opponents are forced to spend removal on devoted druid, but in the end sometimes you're in topdeck mode and find a useless 0/2 or worse company into 0/2s.
I don't know if the two builds can be merged, and i'm a bit skeptical because it would mean raising the curve significantly, cutting one drops like nettle sentinel or cutting some combo pieces while still playing the combo.
Leocop. Shaman is a slower win con than devoted combo. It is another win condition, but it is slower than what gw brings to the table by a turn. It is for this reason that "shaman helps race combo" isn't an accurate statement. GB is worse at racing combo than GW.
Devoted druid is actually quite good, even against interactive decks. If t1 dork is interacted with, devoted is a solid turn 2 play that makes up lost tempo. Although it isnt good at executing a combat damage based backup plan, 2 devoted druids + ezuri or devoted druid + vizier is a win. Vizier of remedies is a 1 of, so it hardly contributes to average card quality.
My build of gw currently runs elvish visionaries in place of nettle sentinels, so I disagree about "average card quality". GW also gets 4 horizon canopy, which improves consistency and grinding over GB. Every build of elves should be on 4 ezuri and 4 chord, unless you are metagaming with maindeck lead. Lead is too slow to be maindecked in an open field. Chord is great, it finds bullets post board and game winning threats g1. Similarly, we want 4 ezuri because he is critical to victory, and if not answered immediately, will win the game whether another is stranded in hand or not.
You are absolutely wrong about shaman being bad against interaction. That's where he shines. Even decks running tons of removal spells cant hope to answer all our elves. We are always left with a board leftover. Shaman turns our random 1/1s into serious damage against interactive decks, furthering our combat damage based game plan. Even if shaman comes down on an empty board, he's still helping get our opponent dead better than an archdruid or ezuri would. Shaman is our best elf, alongside visionary and dwynen's elite, against interaction.
Lots of points where your analysis is way off.
Saying that devoted druid is goo against interactive deck is a very big stretch. Yes, they usually spend removal on it, and it produces mana, but it is still "air". An o/2 is not a card you want to have in your deck in an attrition war, and you will basically never be able to combo off against deck like jund, grixis or jeskai.
If you run elvish visionary instead of nettle sentinel, well that's a choice i won't argue with,but there are downsides, namely losing some of the deck best opening hands with heritage druid plus two other one drops.
I absolutely disagree with the fact that every build of elves should run 4 copies of ezuri and chord. In the combo version it is necessary because they are combo pieces, but ezuri is 1)legendary and 2) just a grey ogre when they are killing your stuff and you don't have the mana to activate him. The same goes for chord, which is terribly clunky when youare not able to have a big board and generate lots of mana. In my non combo builds i never run more than 3 ezuri and usually split chords between main and side.
Regarding shaman being good against interaction i think that's just wrong. A card is good against interaction when it's hard to kill or produces card advantage. Collected company, elvish visionary, dwynen's elite, lead the stampede, chameleon colossus, thrun are good cards against interaction. A 3/2 for 2 that maybe shocks the opponent is not.
Of course shaman is going to do the most damage when our board isn't answered. But the incremental damage it offers every time we play it on a board with just a few dudes is our most effective tool against interactive decks, where we have to default to a combat damage based backup plan. No, it isn't great value in the traditional sense, but it's valuable to us as it will frequently represent between 3-5 damage even after all the removal spells have been slung. That's my experience with the card at least.
I was skeptical of devoted druid against interaction as well, but it's not air when A. They have to remove it and B. If not removed, it threatens to win the game alongside 1 or 2 additional cards. Getting those 1 or 2 additional cards is not a big stretch when we have so many routes to cycle/accrue advantage, like coco, visionary, and horizon canopy. It does this, in addition to filling the role of a proactive 2 that doesn't require a 1 drop to be good (we don't want to play dwynen's elite on 2, but we need to use mana efficiently), and making up lost tempo vs. removal. I've stopped boarding out the vizier combo vs midrange and control, and been happy with it so far.
Currently, I'm on a 2-2 split for visionaries and nettle sentinels. Sentinel is the worst card in elves. Yes, it can contribute to silly stuff a turn 2 collected company. But most of the time, when we just want to activate a heritage druid t2, any other 1 drop would fill the same role. Frequently, if we hit a t1 dork, then llanowar/mystic/heritage + heritage does the same thing as a nettle sentinel in terms of mana production. Currently, I'm only running sentinel to maintain a high density of 1 drops for heritage druid. I can see myself going to 4 visionary, or 2 visionary 2 boreal druid.
I won't go in circles with you on 4 chord 4 ezuri, so I'll just make my final points here. In GW combo, it is 200% correct to run 4 and 4. Period. They are your win cons. You want as many as possible. You are a combo deck. In GB, the topic is a little more up for discussion, depending on the meta. However, with the state of modern, I feel as though maindeck lead is extremely greedy in an open field. Yes, Ezuri and chord are at their worse when you look at them vs control and midrange. But even in those matchups, we will frequently have time to chord for our best creature against them, whether it's elite, visionary, etc. And we want 4 ezuri because he is exceedingly likely to be answered on sight. Therefore, we need as many ezuri as possible so that we can eventually land one and have it stick to the board. Sure, he's a 3 mana 2/2 by himself, but so are most of our payoff cards. They're terrible by themselves, but quickly get much better with 2 or 3 elves on the board. When we get to the late game vs mid and control, and we have 5 mana in play so we can just activate ezuri the old fashioned way, he's easily our best payoff.
I've been a long time Elves player (since two years now), and I'm trying to come back to competitive level for my local GP. There are a lot of choices I had to do to come with my current list, and I'm unsure of many of them. I'd be glad if you can correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
I felt "common" GB lists lack of fast ways to kill. Sure, you can extend and kill with Shaman and Ezuri, but I felt I need to pressure even more opponents like Storm, and anything that can wrath me before I'm big enough. So, I went for GW, with Vizier of remedies and Devoted Druid combo. Sure, it makes flashy wins but that's not the main point. Druid is amazing by herself. I mean, she can produce 2 mana in a single turn, is 0/2 (hence protected from pings). Even if our dork is killed, she will enable Collected Company by herself and quite a Chord of Calling. And, she is a must-answered card. As stated before, being here is a threat in itself : we can fast combo at any moment.
(Small Edit here to refer to previous posts : Devoted Druid does the same 'untap thing' as Nettle and thus combo with Heritage Druid. Once per game (unless you pump it), but usually, you don't do 2 flashy 'starts' with the same Druid It can also serve to have a tricky blocker or attacker and to wrong maths of dizzy opponent. In that regard, I think Elvish Visionnary was more 'air' than Druid. When I play druid, I put pressure, enable silly things. The card in itself advance greatly our plan. When I play Visionnary, I'm more like : "okay, I sink 2 mana into drawing" for a 1/1 that won't do anything unless it can be 'activated' by something else (Ezuri, mainly). When i'm in attrition matches, I like Visionnary on topdeck to dig and have a 1/1 on board. But I surely hate to have it in opening hand, because that just slow me.)
So, I delved in GW... But I felt I laked something. Shaman of the pack is too good to pass on. Especially against Death's Shadow. What's more, the combo is hated and blocked by opponent 60% of the time (that's the whole point of having it I'd say), so we need something else to race.
From there, I went to Abzan. I had to cut cards to fit 2 Shaman of the Pack. In the end, I went down to 3 Nettle Sentinel because this is often a card I side out. (Heritage Druid get all the hate and combo-ing with Nettle become less and less a reality. And you can do it with Devoted Druid anyway. What's more, in attrition matches, Nettle not untapping can be hell). Ezuri, Renegade Leader has been down to 3, from 4 in classic GW lists. I felt I couldn't cut an Elvish Archdruid, and I was only playing 3 Ezuri in GB anyway. But I'm not sure of this. Another drawback is that I can't (can I ?) have silver bullets main deck. Not even a Selfless Spirit or Spellskite.
Another question is : Chord of Calling or Lead the Stampede ? GB, I went for 1/4, but as Abzan, I went for 3/2. I like how Lead can get our HAND full. Not the board that is. You can overextend a bit, play lead, and you have enough fuel even if you are wrath-ed. When it comes to attrition matches against Junk / Jund / Mardu / EldraTron, this card is gold and a good Lead can win a game when a bad one (two or less low value cards) won't kill us. Thus, I felt I cannot go under 3 Chords, or the combo and few Shamans I have would become irrevelent. So, only 2 Leads.
When it comes to the manabase, I don't feel I need fetches so far. 6 sources of black for 2 shamans feel alright. 6 sources of white for the white cards feel a bit tight, but I can Cavern into Cleric (2 cards) Spirit (3 cards) or Wizard (2 cards). In some MU, I even trigger my 2nd cavern for one of these.
Above all, I don't want to hit me too much, as a confortable 20 life means a lot of time to build your board. (And what about the Burn match up ?)
TL;DR : my list
// 33 Creature
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Devoted Druid
1 Vizier of Remedies
2 Shaman of the Pack
//7 Instant
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Gilt-Leaf Palace
// 2 Sorcery
2 Lead the Stampede
// 15 Side
/ Bullets
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Rest in Peace
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Eldritch Evolution
That was about the main deck. But what I'm the most unsure of (if not totally in a thick fog) is the sideboard.
As Abzan, I can't go deep into colored non-creature spells. So I decided to put an emphasis on silver bullets. As I do so, I want other silver bullets enablers, and I choose Eldritch Evolution above the 4th Chord. Evo T2, sacrifice a Llanowar, and you can bring your bullet as fast as T2. That's more convincing to me than trying to Chord a Eidolon of Rethoric to lock Storm... on T3.
The bullets are well-known, I won't discuss too much about them and their utility. But I raise another problem : number of slots ! I want to put more Eldritch Evolutions, to ensure locking Storm / Affinity, and to make my combo more dense and faster when I need to / have the opportunity. Another issue is playing other silver bullets : I feel naked against EldraTron (Revoker is the only bullet...). I'd be glad to bring in Tajuru Preserver and Magus of the Moon. (Magus is a pet card of mine in Elves, and shutdown so many decks like Tron, EldraTron, Death's Shadow, Humans...) Elvish Champion didn't make the cut, but might if enough G decks make their way.
About the other cards :
Rest in Peace is really versatile and deals a serious blow to Mardu midrange, Storm, Death's Shadow, Dredge, Living end...). But I can't search for it unfortunately. So, I also have a Scavenging Ooze to search for, even if he doesn't do Rest in Peace formidable work.
Shapers' Sanctuary is the newest card in my sideboard, and the one I am the most puzzled with. It can be good against heavy removals decks, netting you 3-6 cards if played early, but it's a total waste when it comes T3+ I'd say. So, I was wondering why not playing Lead the Stampede above Sanctuary : it will do its work even if drew T3+ and make you see 5 cards, quite all nonlands ('xcept for CoCo and Chords) are put in hand. It will give a bit less cards, but only creatures. (That is to say, no unwanted lands, nor trump cards). Last, but not least, it takes two slots, that can't be used for silver bullets. We can search for bullets, while we have to open a hand with Sanctuary for it to be worth.
I'm still testing it, because it's my only hope to have decent MU against Jeskai control, but I'm really looking for your thoughts about the card.
Thanks a lot for reading, I'd be glad to have your opinions guys !
Palefang Dawnfall
re: mashing GW and GB. I've done it with moderate success. I play 2 ezuries, 1 duskwatch, 3 shamans. My manabase is mostly painless save 1 temple garden which is supposed to be a horizon canopy, the rest of my manabase looks like the typical GB. I simply assume the risk of drawing my 1 vizier. If that ever happens I'll have to play cavern/territory on Human or hope I drew my Garden. So if I land the 2 combo creatures and have either chord, ezuri, or duskwatch in hand I will win. Which is enough ways. The duskwatch replaces a possible 3rd ezuri because even in interactive matches he can help generate some cards before dying.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Personnaly, I'll stick with 3 Ezuris. You never know which Ezuri is gonna stick and pump the team. But I acknowledge it can do some good work.
Palefang Dawnfall
But I have been on a break and now I wanna get back in gear and again play at the highest level.
I am in the same position as Palefang_Dawnfall, I just like another kind of elves deck. I like high impact sideboard cards IE Stony silence, RIP over chord targets. I do play silver bullets tho..
I am looking for feedback on my list, both sideboard and MD.
Main:
4 llanowar
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynens elite
4 Devoted druid
1 Vizier of Remedies
3 Ezuri Renegadeleader
1 Mirror entity
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 lead the stampeed
4 collected Company
4 Chord of calling
Mana: (10 white)
2 fetch
1 Temple Garden
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of souls
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Forest
Board
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Rec Sage
1 Shapers Sanctuary
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eidelon of Rhetoric
1 Forge Tender
1 Kataki
2 stony Silence
2 Rest in peace
2 Path to exile
What do you think of the main deck? What do you think of the sideboard? Is anything odd?
Things I ponder over. Is Kataki good enough? Is shapers sanctuary really good? Better then lead? Is there a high impact sideboard card for the meta I am missing?
Is a single ton lead in the main wrong? I am not a fan of nettle but the alternatives are worse...
Is your choice of GW over abzan for the sideboarding cards ? If you play only 2 Shamans, you are still able to play your W sideboard. You already chose the fetch route anyway. (I wonder why if you stay 2 colors...)
I think your list is OK, but you miss something to counter Titanshift.
You're also very light for Death's Shadow match up (and it's more than 10% of the competitive meta). I feel you're too light on anything grindy. Kataki always has an impact, even if just a small one. It can range to total blast to not really powerful.
Is Stony Silence for anything else affinity ?
About Nettle, I'm wondering if I should cut one for Narnam Renegade. Not that I will trigger Revolt that often, but it can keep Tarmo / Tasigur / Shadow / Smasher at bay. Even ambush them on a CoCo or Chord.
For Shapers' Sanctuary, I'm trying to find out its real value. Can't really help, but I'll be interested in your opinion about it.
Palefang Dawnfall
I don't think any build of elves with duskwatch recruiter is correct. It's a bad infinite mana payoff that abzan coco is priced into running, not because they want to but because they need it. The point of playing vizier in elves is that we already have a good infinite mana payoff in ezuri. If you want to diversify infinite mana payoffs, play mirror entity.
On the topic of shaper's sanctuary, i think that card is real bad. You always want to play a mana dork t1. Sanctuary isn't strong enough to lead on over a t1 dork. However, a t1 dork is the most important elf for the opponent to remove. So already, it conflicts with our t1 play, and is therefore weak in the early game since our opponent is likely to remove our 1 drop before we untap. In the late game, it's utter trash. You topdeck it when both players are out of gas, with a couple 1/1s on your board, and get steamrolled by goyfs + shadows. I just don't see anywhere on the curve where it's good. Even on t2, we'd rather be pulling heritage druid shenanigans or deploying a 3 drop with our dork. Lead and lifecrafter's bestiary seem like way better options to me.
RE: Duskwatch. We think differently then. Your comments hint that you have not even tried Duskwatch yet, though I might be wrong. If you have infinite mana online, a duskwatch will bring your ezuri anyway. The difference is it also brings the rest of your deck with it. So saying Ezuri is a better infinite mana outlet is flat out wrong. It can be superior when the game is going "average" and you have enough mana to pump ezuri once (perhaps you have 4 elves and archdruid in play with 3 lands), where all a duskwatch will do is draw u a couple of cards. If you're arguing about combo payoff, there is no fight at all. Duskwatch will pull all the creatures in the deck into your hand, and then it doesn't matter what your opponent is holding, because you can cast shamans for 30 drain each, play an ezuri and activate it, and play ALL your silver bullets. Against an attrition deck, Duskwatch will also prove superior to Ezuri simply by replacing itself with a selected card, where ezuri will eat the next removal and disappear. Mirror Entity is a HORRIBLE suggestion. No trample, you need to have white to cast it which is not a guarantee. Don't forget your infinite mana is all green. If you were going to run Mirror, then just play another Ezuri. If you need a 5th Ezuri, you really want Duskwatch, because Duskwatch WILL get you your Ezuri with the combo online. And also every other elf in the deck.
RE: Visionary/Nettle/Devoted. I did not see your comments. Nonetheless we are on the same topic. I don't compare cards of different cmc in a deck like this. Nettle competes with Essence Warden, Copperhorn Scout, Heritage, and Dorks. Naturally we don't touch heritage and dorks, so you would see some combination typically of the first 3. The reason you don't replace your 1 drops with 2 drops is because it affects your heritage starts. And you never want to see that. Now at the 2 cmc slot you have Elites, Visionaries, Vizier/Druid combo, Ooze, spellskite, the latter 2 being very much meta calls. Visionary naturally gets pitted against Devoted quite simply because they share the cmc, and visionary, unlike elite, does not work with Heritage. We value our heritage starts very much, so visionary is the one that naturally gets cut. Hence you see your top8 vizier elves typically carrying 0 visionaries. Not because the card is bad, but simply because its spot in the curve has been occupied by a game-ending combo. Thank goodness I didn't splurge on the FNM foils.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The thing about the combo is this: if I have the combo online and chord in my hand, I will go for duskwatch and not ezuri. The reason is that chording for Duskwatch puts every elf in the deck into my hand, and I have the mana to play them all. So even if the opponent has path-snap-path for your elves that are able to attack this turn, it won't stop the other 28 elves next turn, or the drain from the shamans.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
What card would you play against Titanahift?
RIP and path are good Vs DS I would love to find room for a lead in the sideboard, but can't seem to find room for anything
Stony Silence comes in against tron and E-tron, lantern... And other random artifacts
Narnam is a trap, not going there.. I think I'll cut a Nettle Sentinel for a visonary.
Sanctuary I think is good against jeskai and that is too narrow.. ill try. Life crafter's beastery instead in the sideboard.
On the topic of visionary/nettle. Idk if you read my comment all the way through, but I said that I am running 2 nettle in order to maintain a high density of 1 drops. All the other 1 drop elves, besides boreal druid, are worse. However, when it comes to nettle enabling heritage druid draws, most of the time, any other 1 drop would be effectively the same as a nettle. Very rarely can we produce 3 mana with heritage twice on t2. It requires t1 1 drop into t2 heritage nettle make 3 dwynen's elite. Exceedingly unlikely, and in most draws, where we just want to play a 3 drop with our heritage druid, any of our other 1 drops would be just as good as a nettle. So the question is how many 1 drops do we need to consistently enable t2 druid? Dwynen's elite enables druid as well, so I think 14 is more than enough. This is why I am playing a split with visionary. It's a good proactive 2 in grindy matchups where t1 is interacted with, and if we have infinite mana with no payoff, it can help dig to our outs. Comparing visionary to nettle sentinel is far more reasonable than matching it against devoted druid. And just because two cards differ by 1 cmc, does not mean considering 1 in place of the other is out of the question. Your logic will lead to stymied deck building and hinder innovation.
Also, finishing point on the nettle/heritage issue, it is common knowledge that heritage and nettle are the weakest links in modern elves. They contribute to our most busted draws, but are also independently our worst cards. They are most frequently boarded out as well. Putting too much stock in the power of low impact 1 drops is a path to failure. Makes all our bad matchups much worse, and our good ones only very marginally better.