Im going for Abzan too and spended a lot of money buying 4 Chords, and now Im seeing people using Stampede instead =( it makes me sad
Don't be sad. Check out Ryan's article on Star City about Abzan elves. He runs one Chord main next to three Lead the Stampede. Then runs two Chord in the Sideboard. He explains why in the article.
Im also wondering about the use of Westvale Abbey, it seems to be wasteful.
Why do you feel this way?
I think Westvale Abbey is great way to sneak by a board wide. Paying 5 mana and sacrificing creatures in response to an Anger of the Gods and getting a 9/7 creature is pretty powerful and very effective. I don't think anyone uses it as their main strategy but, in a pinch it's saved me from losing games. Just my $.02
Im not sure if I need graveyard hate. Im also wondering about the use of Westvale Abbey, it seems to be wasteful.
Decks which don't run Path to Exile or bounce effects can't handle the card. Grixis Control or Jund have no outs once it transforms. Technically, Jund has Liliana of the Veil as an out but LotV is one of the worst cards in their Elves-Matchup and board them out. They will have to decide whether they want to have an out against Ormendahl and keep a bad card in their deck our just risk it.
I speculate that Path to Exile might see less play to some extent as Fatal Push is the favourite of the month. Westvale Abbey profits from that.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Im going for Abzan too and spended a lot of money buying 4 Chords, and now Im seeing people using Stampede instead =( it makes me sad
Don't be sad. Check out Ryan's article on Star City about Abzan elves. He runs one Chord main next to three Lead the Stampede. Then runs two Chord in the Sideboard. He explains why in the article.
I'm thinking about adding a set of fatal push in my sideboard... Is it a good enough card considering I run 8 fetchs and 1 abbey?
Depends on what you're wanting to push.
Just some quick scenarios:
If it's a a blocker like wall of omens then chip shots into just SotP drains seems like I'd value a creature in that slot more than pushing it off the field.
Affinity is redundant enough that it's typically not going to matter much. You can push ravager, signal pest or an activated nexus maybe? I could see it being okay but again not something that's letting us race better than a creature in that slot would.
Against elves it'll have plenty of targets but slow you down too much I think.
Merfolk has lots of targets and they risk piercing it and losing to a chord/coco/lead later on. This is already favorable for us though.
Delver can fight through it. It won't slow them enough.
There are better ways to stop the abzan coco decks from combining and tbh dredge is causing a very hostile sideboard meta for them.
Can't hit beans in tron
Jund is already fine as is. Yeah you can hit some stuff but they'll probably make you discard it if they are worried about it. Again I think we want creatures to put pace the removal.
These are just some quick examples but I really don't feel like the card is where we want to be. If there is a deck that is faster and creature based that can't stop the interaction in your meta then sure. Don't forget we've had access to [c]vendetta]/c] which I tried for a long while, which has a multitude of targets and eventually cut it. Removal that isn't stapled to a body isn't what we want generally.
When evaluating cards like this I typically ask myself a few questions.
1. What is my best target for every match I want it in?
2. What is the best round to fire it off in?
3. Will I ever have to leave mana open for this and thus lose tempo and potential resources?
4. If I draw 1 how much does my clock slow down, what about 2,3 or 4?
Also, we would want a fetch/shock base to reliably trigger revolt more controlably which would lead to pretty bad burn match ups. Granted westvale helps and we could go essence warden over nettle, but main deck concessions to a removal that won't carry me isn't where I want to be.
Im not sure if I need graveyard hate. Im also wondering about the use of Westvale Abbey, it seems to be wasteful.
westvale abbey is a rattlesnake card or board wipe insurance. Typically in the 19th land slot which used to be held primarily by nykthos. If you're losing all your dudes to a wrath you may as well get a 9/7 guy out of the deal. Plenty of decks have outs, but they can't afford to just bank those outs for a 1 of in your list. If he gets pathed if I flip him and sac my team in response to a board wipe I'm mana neutral in most cases and lose my team either way. If they don't have the path welcome to my 18 point life swing and 2 turn clock in the air. Modern do snt have much that can jump in front of him.
8 fastlands is something I haven't tested myself, but there will be a non-zero amount of games where you can't chord for x=1 or coco on time after a board wipe if you need to natural draw into an untapped land for your 4th mana. It seems like a corner case but an 18 land mana base is running a 44% tapped lands post land 3. Attrition matches WILL hit this point and this could be what determines you crawling back from a bevy of removal or not.
This gives me 18 untapped sources of green T1, utility in westvale to go wide or tall, utility in pendelhaven to avoid electrolyze blow outs, cavern to make my junk uncounterable. I really just run the risk of gilt-leaf palace coming in tapped if I don't have an elf in hand if it's my 4th land. So that's 4/19 lands for me or 21% of my mana base as opposed to 8/18 for you or 44%.
A good budget replacement is llanowar wastes. They are super cheap right now I think compared to other items in the deck.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Change llanowar wastes to BG fastland. They're cheap now.
Can you set a land list without fetchs and shocks please? Abzan colors please
Well, the GW lands u can add are horizon canopy and the fastland. The most reliable way to play 3 colors is really fetching, so I don't think you should go that way and drop fetches/shocks. Also, I see that you're budget conscious (as I am), and windswept heaths + shocks are a much less expensive option than a playset of canopies.
Im going for Abzan too and spended a lot of money buying 4 Chords, and now Im seeing people using Stampede instead =( it makes me sad
Don't be. The strengths and weaknesses of chord vs lead are in totally different places and u will need different tools for different metas. Against attrition decks, lead will shine but against an open meta with many possibly faster decks to go over, you will want chord on your side letting you toolbox your way out.
I am absolutely biased here against Abbey since the three times I actually got it flipped it got Lilliana'd, Pathed and then Pathed again.
And also grixis has and answer to it: Cryptic Command.
I wasn't sold on the card and still I'm not.
That doesn't sound like a strike against the card. You don't flip Abbey against white decks; you just don't. You KNOW white decks have path to exile as a staple and that it'd be a blowout, so why do it? This is like playing 4 Essence Wardens against Infect and then saying Essence Warden sucks. If the opponent is white, don't flip the abbey, period.
As for Lily, I'm assuming this is Jund you're up against, keeping at least 1 other critter alive after flip is an art. Abbey sometimes takes games against Jund for me, and I've never had to sac it to Lily because I typically flip abbey when both sides are hellbent.
Another thing about abbey is unless you need wipe insurance or that extra 1 colorless mana, just keep abbey in your hand. It, just like any creature with haste or instant, has surprise value. The decisions an opponent will make are certainly affected by the presence of Abbey on the board. They'll keep you at 4 creatures if they don't have exile effects, or they may hold off on their wipe until they can reduce your creature count, etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've been testing Narnam Renegade in place of Nettle Sentinels with a 3/1 Lead/Chord split. I'm loving it so far. You can chord for it against fatties, they don't want to block a 1/2 deathtouch with their 4/5 Goyfs or Tasigurs, and it just wrecks combat damage math for some match-ups. I think I'll be keeping them instead of the Sentinels. I'll also try Fatal Push in the side versus Dismembers. Will post results once AER gets launched.
Im new here, so I have to ask: Why we do not use Joraga? He looks pretty amazing
Playtest it. About six months ago I felt Joraga was the perfect early game one drop and late game mana sink. After playtesting extensively, it's just not as good as you'd think it would be. I don't mind a one of I guess, but I'd rather be running a bullet in his flex spot.
I run a very similar list compared to the one you run. But I found that board wipes were just to much of a problem. So I throw 2 selfless spirits in the main. That's my take.
With Lead the Stampede 3-4x, boardwipes are not that hard to comeback from. I play a GB version of the deck with Prowess of the Fair in the sideboard just in case. It counts as an elf, many opponents are surprised when I tap it alongside nettle/heritage lol
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Im new here, so I have to ask: Why we do not use Joraga? He looks pretty amazing
Playtest it. About six months ago I felt Joraga was the perfect early game one drop and late game mana sink. After playtesting extensively, it's just not as good as you'd think it would be. I don't mind a one of I guess, but I'd rather be running a bullet in his flex spot.
I like joraga, but my wins off my one of were due to opponet inexperience and not because I was jamming a powerful card. There's no way to instant nab him in response to a minus or damage based sweeper and survive it without metallic mimic or bramblewood paragon.
That being said, those cards make him broken in half and nettle sentinel or narnam renegade also become very powerful. I think the warrior list is too slow personally, but it's fun for kitchen table. I'm not even sure how the shell would look, but I would imagine heritage/archdruid/ezuri would still be there. Maybe just less visionaries and shamans for more staying power on the board?
Also, for those of you considering metallic mimic, we've had paragon for years now and it hasn't been quite there historically. I think mimic is better, as we run lots of non warriors so it's effect is more relevant, but anyway my $.02.
Im not sure if I need graveyard hate. Im also wondering about the use of Westvale Abbey, it seems to be wasteful.
westvale abbey is a rattlesnake card or board wipe insurance. Typically in the 19th land slot which used to be held primarily by nykthos. If you're losing all your dudes to a wrath you may as well get a 9/7 guy out of the deal. Plenty of decks have outs, but they can't afford to just bank those outs for a 1 of in your list. If he gets pathed if I flip him and sac my team in response to a board wipe I'm mana neutral in most cases and lose my team either way. If they don't have the path welcome to my 18 point life swing and 2 turn clock in the air. Modern do snt have much that can jump in front of him.
8 fastlands is something I haven't tested myself, but there will be a non-zero amount of games where you can't chord for x=1 or coco on time after a board wipe if you need to natural draw into an untapped land for your 4th mana. It seems like a corner case but an 18 land mana base is running a 44% tapped lands post land 3. Attrition matches WILL hit this point and this could be what determines you crawling back from a bevy of removal or not.
This gives me 18 untapped sources of green T1, utility in westvale to go wide or tall, utility in pendelhaven to avoid electrolyze blow outs, cavern to make my junk uncounterable. I really just run the risk of gilt-leaf palace coming in tapped if I don't have an elf in hand if it's my 4th land. So that's 4/19 lands for me or 21% of my mana base as opposed to 8/18 for you or 44%.
A good budget replacement is llanowar wastes. They are super cheap right now I think compared to other items in the deck.
Thank you for the in depth reply! I don't have the funds yet for Gilt-Leaf/Cavern of souls, and definitely holding out for a reprint. I'll keep testing with this base and with llanowar wastes and see how my games go. How have you felt about dropping nykthos?
I like Nykthos more in a GW build where you rely on Ezuri's Overrun ability. Nykthos is Archdruid number 5.
In GB I like Westvale Abbey more as you usually want to have more Elves in the board cause of Shaman of the Pack. Abbey can bei activated more reliably.
paragon's past poor showing isn't a factor in mimic's evaluation. Paragon doesn't buff elves. It only buffs elves who so happen to be warriors, and this is a huge difference and, imho, the main reason he isn't played. Now we have a legit replacement who actually buffs the creature type that we have 30-34 of in the deck. archdruids, dorks, shamans and visionaries are all going to be serious threats on their own.
if there's a reason i won't play him, it would be because i couldnt drop more visionaries, or skite, or elites.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I think Mimic would fit nicely in a shell with Rishkar, Peema Renegade. This way Rishkar enters the battlefield with 2 counters (1 from himself, 1 from Mimic) which puts him out of bolt range. It also turns any other creature wtih a counter on it into a mana producer. There's a couple +1/+1 counter matters elves in AER such as Narnam Renegade and Greenwheel Liberator but I'm not sure how reliably can we turn on revolt.
I think Mimic would fit nicely in a shell with Rishkar, Peema Renegade. This way Rishkar enters the battlefield with 2 counters (1 from himself, 1 from Mimic) which puts him out of bolt range. It also turns any other creature wtih a counter on it into a mana producer. There's a couple +1/+1 counter matters elves in AER such as Narnam Renegade and Greenwheel Liberator but I'm not sure how reliably can we turn on revolt.
Mimic is also a replacement effect. So if you coco into one and another elf, you don't get the counters. (The dywnen's elite token is an exception). I agree rishkar does make it more attractive, but eve a 2/2 heritage still gets outclassed so quickly in modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Don't be sad. Check out Ryan's article on Star City about Abzan elves. He runs one Chord main next to three Lead the Stampede. Then runs two Chord in the Sideboard. He explains why in the article.
Why do you feel this way?
I think Westvale Abbey is great way to sneak by a board wide. Paying 5 mana and sacrificing creatures in response to an Anger of the Gods and getting a 9/7 creature is pretty powerful and very effective. I don't think anyone uses it as their main strategy but, in a pinch it's saved me from losing games. Just my $.02
Decks which don't run Path to Exile or bounce effects can't handle the card. Grixis Control or Jund have no outs once it transforms. Technically, Jund has Liliana of the Veil as an out but LotV is one of the worst cards in their Elves-Matchup and board them out. They will have to decide whether they want to have an out against Ormendahl and keep a bad card in their deck our just risk it.
I speculate that Path to Exile might see less play to some extent as Fatal Push is the favourite of the month. Westvale Abbey profits from that.
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Sure can!
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34180_Your-Complete-Guide-To-Elves-In-Modern.html
Depends on what you're wanting to push.
Just some quick scenarios:
If it's a a blocker like wall of omens then chip shots into just SotP drains seems like I'd value a creature in that slot more than pushing it off the field.
Affinity is redundant enough that it's typically not going to matter much. You can push ravager, signal pest or an activated nexus maybe? I could see it being okay but again not something that's letting us race better than a creature in that slot would.
Against elves it'll have plenty of targets but slow you down too much I think.
Merfolk has lots of targets and they risk piercing it and losing to a chord/coco/lead later on. This is already favorable for us though.
Delver can fight through it. It won't slow them enough.
There are better ways to stop the abzan coco decks from combining and tbh dredge is causing a very hostile sideboard meta for them.
Can't hit beans in tron
Jund is already fine as is. Yeah you can hit some stuff but they'll probably make you discard it if they are worried about it. Again I think we want creatures to put pace the removal.
These are just some quick examples but I really don't feel like the card is where we want to be. If there is a deck that is faster and creature based that can't stop the interaction in your meta then sure. Don't forget we've had access to [c]vendetta]/c] which I tried for a long while, which has a multitude of targets and eventually cut it. Removal that isn't stapled to a body isn't what we want generally.
When evaluating cards like this I typically ask myself a few questions.
1. What is my best target for every match I want it in?
2. What is the best round to fire it off in?
3. Will I ever have to leave mana open for this and thus lose tempo and potential resources?
4. If I draw 1 how much does my clock slow down, what about 2,3 or 4?
Also, we would want a fetch/shock base to reliably trigger revolt more controlably which would lead to pretty bad burn match ups. Granted westvale helps and we could go essence warden over nettle, but main deck concessions to a removal that won't carry me isn't where I want to be.
westvale abbey is a rattlesnake card or board wipe insurance. Typically in the 19th land slot which used to be held primarily by nykthos. If you're losing all your dudes to a wrath you may as well get a 9/7 guy out of the deal. Plenty of decks have outs, but they can't afford to just bank those outs for a 1 of in your list. If he gets pathed if I flip him and sac my team in response to a board wipe I'm mana neutral in most cases and lose my team either way. If they don't have the path welcome to my 18 point life swing and 2 turn clock in the air. Modern do snt have much that can jump in front of him.
8 fastlands is something I haven't tested myself, but there will be a non-zero amount of games where you can't chord for x=1 or coco on time after a board wipe if you need to natural draw into an untapped land for your 4th mana. It seems like a corner case but an 18 land mana base is running a 44% tapped lands post land 3. Attrition matches WILL hit this point and this could be what determines you crawling back from a bevy of removal or not.
My current land build is
4 gilt-leaf palace
4 cavern of souls
3 windswept Heath
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
1 pendelhaven
1 westvale abbey
This gives me 18 untapped sources of green T1, utility in westvale to go wide or tall, utility in pendelhaven to avoid electrolyze blow outs, cavern to make my junk uncounterable. I really just run the risk of gilt-leaf palace coming in tapped if I don't have an elf in hand if it's my 4th land. So that's 4/19 lands for me or 21% of my mana base as opposed to 8/18 for you or 44%.
A good budget replacement is llanowar wastes. They are super cheap right now I think compared to other items in the deck.
Thanks
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Well, the GW lands u can add are horizon canopy and the fastland. The most reliable way to play 3 colors is really fetching, so I don't think you should go that way and drop fetches/shocks. Also, I see that you're budget conscious (as I am), and windswept heaths + shocks are a much less expensive option than a playset of canopies.
Don't be. The strengths and weaknesses of chord vs lead are in totally different places and u will need different tools for different metas. Against attrition decks, lead will shine but against an open meta with many possibly faster decks to go over, you will want chord on your side letting you toolbox your way out.
That doesn't sound like a strike against the card. You don't flip Abbey against white decks; you just don't. You KNOW white decks have path to exile as a staple and that it'd be a blowout, so why do it? This is like playing 4 Essence Wardens against Infect and then saying Essence Warden sucks. If the opponent is white, don't flip the abbey, period.
As for Lily, I'm assuming this is Jund you're up against, keeping at least 1 other critter alive after flip is an art. Abbey sometimes takes games against Jund for me, and I've never had to sac it to Lily because I typically flip abbey when both sides are hellbent.
Another thing about abbey is unless you need wipe insurance or that extra 1 colorless mana, just keep abbey in your hand. It, just like any creature with haste or instant, has surprise value. The decisions an opponent will make are certainly affected by the presence of Abbey on the board. They'll keep you at 4 creatures if they don't have exile effects, or they may hold off on their wipe until they can reduce your creature count, etc.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've been testing Narnam Renegade in place of Nettle Sentinels with a 3/1 Lead/Chord split. I'm loving it so far. You can chord for it against fatties, they don't want to block a 1/2 deathtouch with their 4/5 Goyfs or Tasigurs, and it just wrecks combat damage math for some match-ups. I think I'll be keeping them instead of the Sentinels. I'll also try Fatal Push in the side versus Dismembers. Will post results once AER gets launched.
Playtest it. About six months ago I felt Joraga was the perfect early game one drop and late game mana sink. After playtesting extensively, it's just not as good as you'd think it would be. I don't mind a one of I guess, but I'd rather be running a bullet in his flex spot.
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
I like joraga, but my wins off my one of were due to opponet inexperience and not because I was jamming a powerful card. There's no way to instant nab him in response to a minus or damage based sweeper and survive it without metallic mimic or bramblewood paragon.
That being said, those cards make him broken in half and nettle sentinel or narnam renegade also become very powerful. I think the warrior list is too slow personally, but it's fun for kitchen table. I'm not even sure how the shell would look, but I would imagine heritage/archdruid/ezuri would still be there. Maybe just less visionaries and shamans for more staying power on the board?
Also, for those of you considering metallic mimic, we've had paragon for years now and it hasn't been quite there historically. I think mimic is better, as we run lots of non warriors so it's effect is more relevant, but anyway my $.02.
Thank you for the in depth reply! I don't have the funds yet for Gilt-Leaf/Cavern of souls, and definitely holding out for a reprint. I'll keep testing with this base and with llanowar wastes and see how my games go. How have you felt about dropping nykthos?
Affinity
Legacy:
GBCombo Elves
EDH:
GEzuri, Renegade Leader's Elf Ball
Cube:
180 Peasant Micro Cube
In GB I like Westvale Abbey more as you usually want to have more Elves in the board cause of Shaman of the Pack. Abbey can bei activated more reliably.
paragon's past poor showing isn't a factor in mimic's evaluation. Paragon doesn't buff elves. It only buffs elves who so happen to be warriors, and this is a huge difference and, imho, the main reason he isn't played. Now we have a legit replacement who actually buffs the creature type that we have 30-34 of in the deck. archdruids, dorks, shamans and visionaries are all going to be serious threats on their own.
if there's a reason i won't play him, it would be because i couldnt drop more visionaries, or skite, or elites.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Mimic is also a replacement effect. So if you coco into one and another elf, you don't get the counters. (The dywnen's elite token is an exception). I agree rishkar does make it more attractive, but eve a 2/2 heritage still gets outclassed so quickly in modern.