@Simon DS nurturing peatland is great. I fear taking too much damage when drawing too much. Having some burn, mono red phoenix, 8whack and some other aggro decks in meta. I really understand to maximize on them.
what's your take on sideboarding against phoenix?
Planning to playtest a lot this weekend against my ur phoenix friend who´s won the bye for gp frankfurt in germany.
I see, it does make sense to trim on Nurturing Peatland in a heavy burn meta. I just loooove those lands though, so will probably jam 4 unless the red aggro decks become more than 20% of the meta. Mono R Phoenix is such a terrible matchup that if it starts seeing more widespread play I'll probably have to put down Elves for a while.
Against UR Phoenix, with my present sideboard, I take out all of the Clancallers and 1 Lead and bring in both Surgicals, both Dismembers, and one Damping Sphere. The first sphere can be very good against Phoenix, but it's not a card I want in multiples. Clancallers are my go-to cut in most matchups.
I'm curious to hear what you learn from your playtesting.
I also assumed that you had "Burn type decks" in your meta, so I didn't question the 3 Nurturing Peatland. In that case, I personally do believe that 3 is correct. You don't ever really want 2 of those out as your only lands ever. I have felt that pain before, mostly with Devoted Druid Company.
Me personally, I'd side my 2 Dismember and my 2 Surgical Extraction. I personally don't think that Damping Sphere does enough and it further waters down Company, which I hate, hate, hate to take out ever.
I know for sure this is not the best current SB. I personally would make sure every deck I play runs 2-3 Ravenous Trap, as the Hogaak Vine deck is insane. I'm not sure what else I'd do to reconfigure the SB, as I don't play Elves regularly. I usually play the other 2 decks or Humans.
I guess I should clarify that the first 4 cards should not be necessary in a GP meta. My meta has tons of people trying to interact, although occasionally those people "disappear" and it becomes not so much like this.
Yeah, Trap is definitely a very good card these days. I just picked up a few copies of Yixlid Jailer to test out. It's very fragile but I'm hoping Bridgevine and Dredge will have relatively few ways to interact with it. Hopefully I don't find it too slow.
How bad is mono-red phoenix for this deck and strategies or cards do we play to help with it?
I think it's the worst matchup for Elves of the top tier decks. It's very easy for them to establish a fast clock while preventing us from achieving a critical mass. Tbh, I don't think it's a fixable matchup and you just have to hope they draw or play poorly. To that end, my strategy is to focus on my own gameplan and hope I can win as quickly as possible.
Shapers' Sanctuary can be an OK sideboard card against them, since I'm seeing more lists cutting sweeper effects lately to make room for extra graveyard hate.
Is Nurturing Peatland needed in this list? I’ve been trying to figure what I would pull out to add it and nothing really jumps out.
Peatland isn't strictly necessary, per se, but it is very, very good. I think you could easily cut the two Overgrown Tombs and 1 or 2 basics for Nurturing Peatlands.
I went with the thinking that Graveyard decks, Faster Decks, and Tron would be prevelant. So, I would need to gear to shut down strategies and be superfast. This is what I did and why I built the way that I did for more comb and protection oriented. I would probably replace Phyrexian Revoker with Collector Ophre and try to replace something with Elvish Champion (maybe Sylvan Messenger or Gutshot (infect), Burrington Forge-Tender. I might also replace the second scooze main deck (put in the side), and then put in a second Finale of Devestation in the main.
I beat Burn, Blue Moon, and Tron. I ID'd vs. HollowOOne.
better question is any of the Core Set 20 cards going to make it into the CoCo build?
we do have some interesting tools at our disposal.
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I am looking at 2 cards. One for the side and one for the side/main
This last is Icon of Ancestry
is an artifact at cost 3 that is not removed by mass removal, allow to filter the best creature etc.
I would test it in the spots of lead the stampede
Only for the side I would test Thought Distortion
It is a non counterable sorcery that, if we are able to solve in the 3/4 round totally destroy decks like
UWx control, storms, tron etc.
Moreover, there is leyline of the void. It is not new. But I am very happy to see its re-print
Does people play Nurturing Peatland in GB Elf deck?
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Modern: Elves(GB), Merfolk(U), Grixis Death Shadow Standard: Dinosaurs(GR) Commander: The Ur-Dragon, Arahbo-Roar of the World, Zacama-Primal Calamity, Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
I am looking at 2 cards. One for the side and one for the side/main
This last is Icon of Ancestry
is an artifact at cost 3 that is not removed by mass removal, allow to filter the best creature etc.
I would test it in the spots of lead the stampede
Only for the side I would test Thought Distortion
It is a non counterable sorcery that, if we are able to solve in the 3/4 round totally destroy decks like
UWx control, storms, tron etc.
Moreover, there is leyline of the void. It is not new. But I am very happy to see its re-print
Icon of Ancestry is an interesting one. It's clearly powerful, but also much slower than the current card advantage options. It takes 6 to replace itself, and 9 to generate card advantage. Lead the Stampede is unquestionable more efficient, so it comes down to how impactful the glorious anthem effect is. I'm not sold, but I think it's a card worth testing.
I don't think Thought Distortion is where you want to be. If you're able to cast it on turn 3 or 4, chances are things are already going well for you and you'd rather just play a Coco or an Archdruid + Shaman. BB is also going to be mighty awkward at times.
Other M20 cards that are worth mentioning are Elvish Reclaimer and Shared Summons. Reclaimer does not fit into any current Elves build but might encourage a 3-color build with the fetch/shock manabase. A 3/4 for G is pretty nice, although the creature type "elf" may be a red herring as this probably fits better into existing GBx midrange builds. Shared Summons is absolutely worth looking at if you're already running the Vizier/Devoted Druid combo. Between Finale of Devastation, Eladamri's Call, and now Shared Summons, we've gotten some really good creature tutor options over the past three sets.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I'm running pretty much the same list Simon DS posted last, but I'm not making headway. I'm not running the Peatlands, since I already own a playset of the Woodland Cemetery, but other than that deck is the same.
The current meta in my area is heavy Infect, followed by UW Control and Burn/Mono Red Phoenix. I can't seem to even get started before I'm either dead or they control the board state. Any suggestions?
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis i saw. As this deck uses LOTS of green. And possibly black, and it poops oit creatures, would this be an affective beatstick?
I'm running pretty much the same list Simon DS posted last, but I'm not making headway. I'm not running the Peatlands, since I already own a playset of the Woodland Cemetery, but other than that deck is the same.
The current meta in my area is heavy Infect, followed by UW Control and Burn/Mono Red Phoenix. I can't seem to even get started before I'm either dead or they control the board state. Any suggestions?
None of those are particularly good matchups, although UW Control is easier I think since they no longer run terminus. You could consider removing some number of Dismember from your sideboard in favor of Fatal Push, as they're functionally equivalent in the matchups you named and the life loss from Dismember is significant against Burn. Melira, Sylvok Outcast is also a very real hate card against Infect, and worth considering in your SB if it's a major portion of your local meta.
To be frank I don't think the Mono Red Phoenix/Prowess Burn matchups are fixable. Any deck running Gut Shot and/or Lava Dart should be heavily favored vs. Elves. I mostly hope to get lucky in those matches.
With limited information, the best advice I feel I can offer is to know your role in these matchups. Don't be afraid to block early and trade off creatures against Infect, as we have more sources of card advantage than them. Force U/W to have the sweeper on curve - play aggressively and try to apply as much pressure as possible in the early turns. Going into a match with a gameplan helps me play the early turns successfully and also helps me understand what I needed to do differently when I lose.
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis i saw. As this deck uses LOTS of green. And possibly black, and it poops oit creatures, would this be an affective beatstick?
"You can't spend mana to cast this spell" means Hogaak doesn't fit into our deck at all.
[quote from="MTG_Bob »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/767834-collected-company-elves?comment=2540"]None of those are particularly good matchups, although UW Control is easier I think since they no longer run terminus. You could consider removing some number of Dismember from your sideboard in favor of Fatal Push, as they're functionally equivalent in the matchups you named and the life loss from Dismember is significant against Burn. Melira, Sylvok Outcast is also a very real hate card against Infect, and worth considering in your SB if it's a major portion of your local meta.
To be frank I don't think the Mono Red Phoenix/Prowess Burn matchups are fixable. Any deck running Gut Shot and/or Lava Dart should be heavily favored vs. Elves. I mostly hope to get lucky in those matches.
With limited information, the best advice I feel I can offer is to know your role in these matchups. Don't be afraid to block early and trade off creatures against Infect, as we have more sources of card advantage than them. Force U/W to have the sweeper on curve - play aggressively and try to apply as much pressure as possible in the early turns. Going into a match with a gameplan helps me play the early turns successfully and also helps me understand what I needed to do differently when I lose.
I've been trying to outrace them as much as possible. I think with the Bridge from Below banning, my area will go to even more Infect/Burn/UW Control then before since there won't be as much of a need for graveyard hate. Perhaps it is time to shelf Elves again until they come up with something that makes them truly impressive once again? Which sucks, I enjoy playing the deck and they aren't played locally by anyone else.
I've been trying to outrace them as much as possible. I think with the Bridge from Below banning, my area will go to even more Infect/Burn/UW Control then before since there won't be as much of a need for graveyard hate. Perhaps it is time to shelf Elves again until they come up with something that makes them truly impressive once again? Which sucks, I enjoy playing the deck and they aren't played locally by anyone else.
I would actually expect Infect and possibly Burn to decrease in popularity, as the format should slow down and become more interaction-oriented now that BFB has been banned. I am looking forward to seeing more Humans, Dredge, Amulet Titan, and Tron again. Humans especially is probably my favorite Tier 1 matchup in modern.
It is true though that Elves doesn't feel amazing right now. Modern Horizons gave us Nurturing Peatland and Collector Ouphe, which were both nice upgrades but neither was a huge shot in the arm. Lava Dart, Wrenn and Six, and Plague Engineer are all seeing a lot of play right now and can be pretty unbeatable. I would not recommend Elves to anyone going into a large tournament with high level competition. As a "casually competitive" FNM-level deck though I think it's still totally fine.
I would actually expect Infect and possibly Burn to decrease in popularity, as the format should slow down and become more interaction-oriented now that BFB has been banned. I am looking forward to seeing more Humans, Dredge, Amulet Titan, and Tron again. Humans especially is probably my favorite Tier 1 matchup in modern.
It is true though that Elves doesn't feel amazing right now. Modern Horizons gave us Nurturing Peatland and Collector Ouphe, which were both nice upgrades but neither was a huge shot in the arm. Lava Dart, Wrenn and Six, and Plague Engineer are all seeing a lot of play right now and can be pretty unbeatable. I would not recommend Elves to anyone going into a large tournament with high level competition. As a "casually competitive" FNM-level deck though I think it's still totally fine.
A recent $1k in my area was won by Mono Red Phoenix. There were 2 of the Pyromancer decks in the T8, a BG Rock, Devoted Devastation, Thopter Sword, and 2 UR Phoenix. I haven't seen the results of one from yesterday and we have a $5k coming up in a few weeks that I'd be interested in playing in if I believe I can get a shot at a T16.
I've been seeing an increase in Tron at the weekly tournament. Is Tajuru Preserver a worthwhile SB card for us in that matchup, and if so, what do we pull?
*Edit* Eldrazi Tron won this weekend's $1k. I'm thinking that Tajuru Preserver will be a great help against All is Dust, since that is the only board sweeper they run.
A recent $1k in my area was won by Mono Red Phoenix. There were 2 of the Pyromancer decks in the T8, a BG Rock, Devoted Devastation, Thopter Sword, and 2 UR Phoenix. I haven't seen the results of one from yesterday and we have a $5k coming up in a few weeks that I'd be interested in playing in if I believe I can get a shot at a T16.
I've been seeing an increase in Tron at the weekly tournament. Is Tajuru Preserver a worthwhile SB card for us in that matchup, and if so, what do we pull?
*Edit* Eldrazi Tron won this weekend's $1k. I'm thinking that Tajuru Preserver will be a great help against All is Dust, since that is the only board sweeper they run.
That meta sounds very hostile to Elves. Honestly I don't think this is a good time for the deck. Ironic that Modern Horizons was supposed to be a boon for Elves, but instead might be one of the worst sets for us in recent memory with the introduction of Lava Dart, Plague Engineer, and Wrenn and Six to the format.
Tajuru Preserver is going pretty deep. That is far too narrow of a card for my tastes. I prefer Damping Sphere, which forces them to make 7 land drops before they can cast All is Dust and also has utility against other Tron and Phoenix decks.
That meta sounds very hostile to Elves. Honestly I don't think this is a good time for the deck. Ironic that Modern Horizons was supposed to be a boon for Elves, but instead might be one of the worst sets for us in recent memory with the introduction of Lava Dart, Plague Engineer, and Wrenn and Six to the format.
Tajuru Preserver is going pretty deep. That is far too narrow of a card for my tastes. I prefer Damping Sphere, which forces them to make 7 land drops before they can cast All is Dust and also has utility against other Tron and Phoenix decks.
I have never actually drawn my Damping Sphere, so I never think about it. Sometimes I wonder if I even have it in my deck after sideboarding! But I do agree that the meta in my area is extremely hostile to Elves. I've run RDW, Living End and Valacut Ramp previously, so perhaps I may go back to a red deck for a little while while I wait for a little more life to be breathed into our little green friends.
Thanks for all the insight! Don't know what I would have done without this group and forum!
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I see, it does make sense to trim on Nurturing Peatland in a heavy burn meta. I just loooove those lands though, so will probably jam 4 unless the red aggro decks become more than 20% of the meta. Mono R Phoenix is such a terrible matchup that if it starts seeing more widespread play I'll probably have to put down Elves for a while.
Against UR Phoenix, with my present sideboard, I take out all of the Clancallers and 1 Lead and bring in both Surgicals, both Dismembers, and one Damping Sphere. The first sphere can be very good against Phoenix, but it's not a card I want in multiples. Clancallers are my go-to cut in most matchups.
I'm curious to hear what you learn from your playtesting.
Yeah, Trap is definitely a very good card these days. I just picked up a few copies of Yixlid Jailer to test out. It's very fragile but I'm hoping Bridgevine and Dredge will have relatively few ways to interact with it. Hopefully I don't find it too slow.
Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction seems to be the key cards.
I also play a Stain the mind in the sideboard. It could be okay but (due to the spot removal) I'm affraid I'll often lack creatures for convoke.
RBWMardu Nahiri, GBElves, UW Emeria, RSkred Red,
GBelcher, BDevotion, GWRNaya landfall, UWBEsper Miracles
Is Nurturing Peatland needed in this list? I’ve been trying to figure what I would pull out to add it and nothing really jumps out.
I think it's the worst matchup for Elves of the top tier decks. It's very easy for them to establish a fast clock while preventing us from achieving a critical mass. Tbh, I don't think it's a fixable matchup and you just have to hope they draw or play poorly. To that end, my strategy is to focus on my own gameplan and hope I can win as quickly as possible.
Shapers' Sanctuary can be an OK sideboard card against them, since I'm seeing more lists cutting sweeper effects lately to make room for extra graveyard hate.
Peatland isn't strictly necessary, per se, but it is very, very good. I think you could easily cut the two Overgrown Tombs and 1 or 2 basics for Nurturing Peatlands.
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Temple Garden
1x Pendelhaven
4x Forest
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Dwynen's Elite
3x Nettle Sentinel
4x Devoted Druid
1x Vizier of Remedies
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Heritage Druid
4x Chord of Calling
1x Finale of Devestation
2x Path to Exile
3x Damping Sphere
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Stony Silence
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Shalai, Voice of the Plenty
1x Elvish Champion
1x Phyrexian Revoker
I went with the thinking that Graveyard decks, Faster Decks, and Tron would be prevelant. So, I would need to gear to shut down strategies and be superfast. This is what I did and why I built the way that I did for more comb and protection oriented. I would probably replace Phyrexian Revoker with Collector Ophre and try to replace something with Elvish Champion (maybe Sylvan Messenger or Gutshot (infect), Burrington Forge-Tender. I might also replace the second scooze main deck (put in the side), and then put in a second Finale of Devestation in the main.
I beat Burn, Blue Moon, and Tron. I ID'd vs. HollowOOne.
we do have some interesting tools at our disposal.
-Stay Frosty
This last is Icon of Ancestry
is an artifact at cost 3 that is not removed by mass removal, allow to filter the best creature etc.
I would test it in the spots of lead the stampede
Only for the side I would test Thought Distortion
It is a non counterable sorcery that, if we are able to solve in the 3/4 round totally destroy decks like
UWx control, storms, tron etc.
Moreover, there is leyline of the void. It is not new. But I am very happy to see its re-print
Standard: Dinosaurs(GR)
Commander: The Ur-Dragon, Arahbo-Roar of the World, Zacama-Primal Calamity, Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
Yes
Icon of Ancestry is an interesting one. It's clearly powerful, but also much slower than the current card advantage options. It takes 6 to replace itself, and 9 to generate card advantage. Lead the Stampede is unquestionable more efficient, so it comes down to how impactful the glorious anthem effect is. I'm not sold, but I think it's a card worth testing.
I don't think Thought Distortion is where you want to be. If you're able to cast it on turn 3 or 4, chances are things are already going well for you and you'd rather just play a Coco or an Archdruid + Shaman. BB is also going to be mighty awkward at times.
Other M20 cards that are worth mentioning are Elvish Reclaimer and Shared Summons. Reclaimer does not fit into any current Elves build but might encourage a 3-color build with the fetch/shock manabase. A 3/4 for G is pretty nice, although the creature type "elf" may be a red herring as this probably fits better into existing GBx midrange builds. Shared Summons is absolutely worth looking at if you're already running the Vizier/Devoted Druid combo. Between Finale of Devastation, Eladamri's Call, and now Shared Summons, we've gotten some really good creature tutor options over the past three sets.
Leyline of Abundance may be to high variance for the deck.
is Lotus Field a 1-of? or it just doesn't have a place due to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx?
Also, I thought we had way more tutor cards for less?
-Stay Frosty
The current meta in my area is heavy Infect, followed by UW Control and Burn/Mono Red Phoenix. I can't seem to even get started before I'm either dead or they control the board state. Any suggestions?
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
None of those are particularly good matchups, although UW Control is easier I think since they no longer run terminus. You could consider removing some number of Dismember from your sideboard in favor of Fatal Push, as they're functionally equivalent in the matchups you named and the life loss from Dismember is significant against Burn. Melira, Sylvok Outcast is also a very real hate card against Infect, and worth considering in your SB if it's a major portion of your local meta.
To be frank I don't think the Mono Red Phoenix/Prowess Burn matchups are fixable. Any deck running Gut Shot and/or Lava Dart should be heavily favored vs. Elves. I mostly hope to get lucky in those matches.
With limited information, the best advice I feel I can offer is to know your role in these matchups. Don't be afraid to block early and trade off creatures against Infect, as we have more sources of card advantage than them. Force U/W to have the sweeper on curve - play aggressively and try to apply as much pressure as possible in the early turns. Going into a match with a gameplan helps me play the early turns successfully and also helps me understand what I needed to do differently when I lose.
"You can't spend mana to cast this spell" means Hogaak doesn't fit into our deck at all.
I've been trying to outrace them as much as possible. I think with the Bridge from Below banning, my area will go to even more Infect/Burn/UW Control then before since there won't be as much of a need for graveyard hate. Perhaps it is time to shelf Elves again until they come up with something that makes them truly impressive once again? Which sucks, I enjoy playing the deck and they aren't played locally by anyone else.
I would actually expect Infect and possibly Burn to decrease in popularity, as the format should slow down and become more interaction-oriented now that BFB has been banned. I am looking forward to seeing more Humans, Dredge, Amulet Titan, and Tron again. Humans especially is probably my favorite Tier 1 matchup in modern.
It is true though that Elves doesn't feel amazing right now. Modern Horizons gave us Nurturing Peatland and Collector Ouphe, which were both nice upgrades but neither was a huge shot in the arm. Lava Dart, Wrenn and Six, and Plague Engineer are all seeing a lot of play right now and can be pretty unbeatable. I would not recommend Elves to anyone going into a large tournament with high level competition. As a "casually competitive" FNM-level deck though I think it's still totally fine.
A recent $1k in my area was won by Mono Red Phoenix. There were 2 of the Pyromancer decks in the T8, a BG Rock, Devoted Devastation, Thopter Sword, and 2 UR Phoenix. I haven't seen the results of one from yesterday and we have a $5k coming up in a few weeks that I'd be interested in playing in if I believe I can get a shot at a T16.
I've been seeing an increase in Tron at the weekly tournament. Is Tajuru Preserver a worthwhile SB card for us in that matchup, and if so, what do we pull?
*Edit* Eldrazi Tron won this weekend's $1k. I'm thinking that Tajuru Preserver will be a great help against All is Dust, since that is the only board sweeper they run.
That meta sounds very hostile to Elves. Honestly I don't think this is a good time for the deck. Ironic that Modern Horizons was supposed to be a boon for Elves, but instead might be one of the worst sets for us in recent memory with the introduction of Lava Dart, Plague Engineer, and Wrenn and Six to the format.
Tajuru Preserver is going pretty deep. That is far too narrow of a card for my tastes. I prefer Damping Sphere, which forces them to make 7 land drops before they can cast All is Dust and also has utility against other Tron and Phoenix decks.
I have never actually drawn my Damping Sphere, so I never think about it. Sometimes I wonder if I even have it in my deck after sideboarding! But I do agree that the meta in my area is extremely hostile to Elves. I've run RDW, Living End and Valacut Ramp previously, so perhaps I may go back to a red deck for a little while while I wait for a little more life to be breathed into our little green friends.
Thanks for all the insight! Don't know what I would have done without this group and forum!