Excellent post and I really appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me.
What you have said is great advice, I will add a couple of proxies to my casual group and see how it goes. Everything else I am sure is on point and I will think about my options going forward.
As for the main page, I think we need to update the SB card guide for 2018. Merfolk is getting an update thanks to it's community.
I would like to propose a list of cards to update as well for 2018.
scavenging ooze is the main GY hate card that can be tutored off chord and LTS, you can play it off heritage Mana and almost instantly attack their GY. It is a very MB-able card atm thanks to all the snap decks and hollow one. It is even good against burn and the control decks because of logic knot. MB 1/ SB 1 or MB 2 to attack your regionals metagame.
It is very good against a heavy hollow one, creature based format like humans. You want it on the draw vs. control decks because you want a bit less spells, and more creatures for them to deal with. Since G1 will always be a linear gameplan, this isn't an elf to produce Mana.
reclamation sage is a powerful toolbox elf atm. It is very good against amulet Titan, aethervial, and hollow one. All of which are recently popular decks. MB interaction against affinity is also a plus, and killing off a t2 azcanta against control means they can't filter their draw step, which is good for you to hasten your gameplan.
MB 1/ SB 1 seems to be the main plan with this card atm, which is fine since there is no way to know if the card will interact with the lower rounds of the tournament (i.e. non pyromancer storm decks, ad nauseum, etc.)
I'll continue with more cards later since I have to work, but I'll continue to update with my thoughts and choices on MB and SB cards.
I'll be updating the primer in the coming days. Lots of new information as well as new variations (RG, Jund etc.) to add
Update on sideboard cards. (Aka long post)
Continuing on creatures.
ramunap excavator pick this card up now while it is cheap as a standard card. This card is crucible of worlds on a stick, meaning it can be company/chord-able against rg ponza, pox, land destruction decks. It also brings back dead fetches if need be in a grind match up. Definitely always have one to SB on hand. 2/3 body is still okay, not decent.
essence warden very good against creature decks or decks that gum up the ground. Okay against burn match up, but it doesn't give the same impact as your other elves, I feel you need to play some amount of LTS to keep the life gain train rolling against semi-based non creature decks.
obstinate baloth this card has been seeing A LOT more SB against hollow one/jund, lili decks, and it's a 4/4 for 4. So it's still a good beater. The 4 life gain is good against burn, it's better than essence warden imo if I plan to SB for burn/creature heavy metagame. It's still good against control match up, just having an extra body that doesn't die to bolt/helix/push. I would consider 2 copies for the SB if you plan to bring it.
thrun, the last troll if you plan to play chameo colossus, I would recommend this card before heading over to our pro black friend. This card is VERY good against a heavy jeskai match up atm, it also evades verdict with a self regeration ability. It has the ability to block hollow ones, and it can even chump against angler and almost all the ground creatures. Only 1 copy as it is a legendary.
chameleon colossus this card has it's days, but the meta is shifting towards non black creatures and jund isn't putting up the results in the recent events. It would be benched until jund or some form of deck that tops and includes a hefty amount of black creatures where evading them for the kill would be good. One copy like thrun is all you need.
melira, sylvok outcast melira used to be an auto include one-of for infect. But infect is the worst deck to bring into a format with a bunch of eletrolyze and mardu decks that have large amount of chump blockers. She will be benched for now unless you want to bring her against the affinity match up where they use blinkmoth as their alternate win con, which is a pretty bad reason.
glissa, the traitor this card is better with nihil spellbomb as your gy removal of choice. You also need cavern to make this Mana cost playable. The first strike and deathtouch hoses ground creatures very nicely. This is mostly against pyro/hollow one decks to keep reusing spellbomb to net CA and remove their yard.
dryad arbor I want to play test this card a lot as a 2-of. Chord can be casted for 0 and if we are stuck on land. Chording for a dryad arbor might not be so bad. It helps towards getting to that important collected company play faster and a creature to attack and chump with. REL states you can only play with future sight arbor, which is stupid. Since they only need to enfore that dryad arbor should be in the "zone where creatures are placed".
wilt-leaf liege this card used to be an okay SB card vs. jund and hollow one, but baloth took its' place and has become a bench warmer. Same as baloth if you were to play them, 2 copies.
shalai, voice of plenty this is a multi-utility card. It is good against storm, hand disruption decks, it makes them waste removal on this first before your dorks. It is also gavony on a stick, since it is a new card. It seems to be a one-of currently and requires A LOT of playtesting before any verdict can be made. It's supposed to be good in the grindy match ups where you can start putting counters on your dorks ornin any creature heavy match up.
eidolon of rhetoric good against the solitaire decks and shuts them down completely. Also very good against decks that want to cast multiple spells a turn, like pyromancer, it is also okay vs. hollow one assuming they don't get the nut draw. It is currently a one-of and should stay that way as a SB toolbox card.
kataki, war's wage I think it isn't as good as Stony silence, but it is a chord-able creature against any artifact heavy deck. It is a singleton for the SB.
thalia, guardian of thraben a powerful 2/1 first strike with the ability to slow down any deck using spells. It isn't as effective as eidolon against the solitaire decks. It still punishes them for not playing creatures. It is a nonbo with 5 Mana Coco. It is a one-of.
thalia, heretic cathar this is a more powerful version imo as it makes opponents lands come into play tapped. Effectively slowing their gameplay, and any blockers they wish to play comes into play tapped. Still having first strike along with a 3/2 body means she can effectively deal with a bunch of ground creatures. Same as before to a singleton in the board.
It is very good, but it isn't as important as using our few tutors to chord a better lockdown card like eidolon. I have zero idea why anyone would play blazing archon even in reanimator decks. If you are just playing casual, just put it the many kill spells that kills flyers.
Sorry blazing archon was just an example, the only card I could think of that was necessary to take out. Didn't mean I had seen it in competitive modern decks.
for one you would need blue mana, which is not impossible but UG elves doesnt have much to offer except choice counterspells like Unified Will. then you would have to ask yourself why you are playing Distant Melody over Lead the Stampede, which is on color, cheaper, and doesnt require a board state. Distant Melody might have a higher ceiling, since you could technically draw more than 5 cards, but the floor is going to be way lower. If you are going to be paying 4 mana at sorcery speed to draw 1-2, then you might as well be playing Divination.
edit: i guess Coiling Oracle is a reason to play UG elves, but its been a hot minute since ive seen anyone use that build to any level of success.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I've been experimenting with a blue green build for a while. I love Coiling Oracle, and Dramatic Reversal can be quite good, but Beck//Call is just a worse version of glimpse of nature, and it's not even worth running in modern. I haven't really tried out Distant Melody, but it does seem awfully expensive and in most cases worse than lead the stampede. In any blue variant, the biggest issue you're going to run into is that the deck produces almost exclusively green mana, and while a ug build can pump out a gigantic amount of mana in a very short time and draw a lot of cards, its limited by the fact that it really can only ever get one or two blue mana per turn. I've had a lot of fun with my blue build, but I don't think there's much of a competitive future in it because I think elves' biggest competitive advantage is a sideboard toolkit that can deal with anything through chords and companies, and Abzan or GW has a much better ability to use a toolkit like that.
1) it is a card you would still want for toolboxing imo. If the case should ever arrive, there is no downside to picking one up while it's cheap.
2) and 5) coincide because of hollow one decks mostly. But idk if hollow one has enough % of the metagame to warrant the cards.
3) agreed.
4)yeah, I would figure on that already. It's mostly an idea more than a realistic opportunity. It was a nice try for the idea maybe. I would've also considered 3 mana to avoid Lili of the veil sac as well. I am not sure how good that would be though.
I would use westvale Abbey, as you can make creatures off it if you should ever flood.
Just saw the new elf spoiled for m19, elvish rejuvenator is an edh card. 3 mana search for any land from the top 5 isn't good enough for the deck in modern. Maybe it is more powerful in legacy as it can get gaea's cradle?
A lot of the toolbox cards can't be pumped by elves, but they do something to help stem the bleeding of w/e the format is in. g/r ponza has been seen here or there, but the number isn't large enough to warrant the card. Just saying if it is ever needed, then it would be used.
I was hoping more from the new green walker. She is as generic as green has been, not being able to kill any creature makes her impact a lot worse. Vital force, garruk caller of beasts are a lot better in the grind match ups you want them in. The only difference is if you care about the naturalize ability, along with the niche kill a vault skirge/freebooter/mantis rider.
It's mostly for the combo decks/ solitaire decks where you can cast it on t2/3 to get rid of their win cons.
Vivian doesn't seem to be the right walker for 5 Mana in modern. It needs to be a very high impact card the moment you draw it and cast it for 5 in a fast format such as modern. If she made a beast/wolf as her +1 instead, I would have been on the boat.
walking ballista since there are devoted druid builds, you want something to do with infinite Mana other than ezuri. Ballista walker offers that option as an instant cast win button. It doesn't mean you have to hold it in your hand as well, with the large amount of Mana from archdruid. You should be able to cast this and get rid of pesky blockers, shoot to the face for next turn shaman lethal, clear the board against creature centric decks, etc. I believe this card will be the "spellskite" in a creature/control heavy format as both a combo piece and a removal spell. This would be a 2-3 copies depending how saturated your regional is with creature heavy decks.
eidolon of rhetoric it's a better aethesworn canonist as it hardlocked to all spells. You can immediately play it to control combo decks using cantrips; into playing a tempo game and reach critical mass for a slower t6-t7 kill on avg. 1 of is fine for the toolbox deck.
I'm not sure I'm on board with 2-3 copies of Walking Ballista in the deck. Ballista provides no synergy with Heritage Druid, Archdruid, Shaman of the Pack, or Dwynen's Elite, and it can't be hit off Collected Company or Chorded for. But, if you're going to go that route, I might run 1 Ballista and 1 Duskwatch Recruiter over multiple Ballista. If you are able to assemble infinite mana then Recruiter will find you a Walking Ballista. Recruiter can also be hit off of Collected Company and will provide value as a mana sink without needing an Archdruid or the combo on board. But if we're going to start attacking from this angle, we should probably just play Counters Company.
I rather run multiple copies of ballista. Even if you can't company or chord it, you are still SBing LTS for the grind match ups. You side out chords for more threats, which ballista can provide. The fact is also you don't have to hold on to the ballista and just ram it up at 2 counters as a bear. It isn't an elf, so is vizier, kataki, eidolon. I just think the card is versatile enough to bring in atm with all the human decks around as interaction along with copies of dismember.
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What you have said is great advice, I will add a couple of proxies to my casual group and see how it goes. Everything else I am sure is on point and I will think about my options going forward.
I'll be updating the primer in the coming days. Lots of new information as well as new variations (RG, Jund etc.) to add
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Continuing on creatures.
ramunap excavator pick this card up now while it is cheap as a standard card. This card is crucible of worlds on a stick, meaning it can be company/chord-able against rg ponza, pox, land destruction decks. It also brings back dead fetches if need be in a grind match up. Definitely always have one to SB on hand. 2/3 body is still okay, not decent.
essence warden very good against creature decks or decks that gum up the ground. Okay against burn match up, but it doesn't give the same impact as your other elves, I feel you need to play some amount of LTS to keep the life gain train rolling against semi-based non creature decks.
obstinate baloth this card has been seeing A LOT more SB against hollow one/jund, lili decks, and it's a 4/4 for 4. So it's still a good beater. The 4 life gain is good against burn, it's better than essence warden imo if I plan to SB for burn/creature heavy metagame. It's still good against control match up, just having an extra body that doesn't die to bolt/helix/push. I would consider 2 copies for the SB if you plan to bring it.
thrun, the last troll if you plan to play chameo colossus, I would recommend this card before heading over to our pro black friend. This card is VERY good against a heavy jeskai match up atm, it also evades verdict with a self regeration ability. It has the ability to block hollow ones, and it can even chump against angler and almost all the ground creatures. Only 1 copy as it is a legendary.
chameleon colossus this card has it's days, but the meta is shifting towards non black creatures and jund isn't putting up the results in the recent events. It would be benched until jund or some form of deck that tops and includes a hefty amount of black creatures where evading them for the kill would be good. One copy like thrun is all you need.
melira, sylvok outcast melira used to be an auto include one-of for infect. But infect is the worst deck to bring into a format with a bunch of eletrolyze and mardu decks that have large amount of chump blockers. She will be benched for now unless you want to bring her against the affinity match up where they use blinkmoth as their alternate win con, which is a pretty bad reason.
glissa, the traitor this card is better with nihil spellbomb as your gy removal of choice. You also need cavern to make this Mana cost playable. The first strike and deathtouch hoses ground creatures very nicely. This is mostly against pyro/hollow one decks to keep reusing spellbomb to net CA and remove their yard.
dryad arbor I want to play test this card a lot as a 2-of. Chord can be casted for 0 and if we are stuck on land. Chording for a dryad arbor might not be so bad. It helps towards getting to that important collected company play faster and a creature to attack and chump with. REL states you can only play with future sight arbor, which is stupid. Since they only need to enfore that dryad arbor should be in the "zone where creatures are placed".
wilt-leaf liege this card used to be an okay SB card vs. jund and hollow one, but baloth took its' place and has become a bench warmer. Same as baloth if you were to play them, 2 copies.
shalai, voice of plenty this is a multi-utility card. It is good against storm, hand disruption decks, it makes them waste removal on this first before your dorks. It is also gavony on a stick, since it is a new card. It seems to be a one-of currently and requires A LOT of playtesting before any verdict can be made. It's supposed to be good in the grindy match ups where you can start putting counters on your dorks ornin any creature heavy match up.
eidolon of rhetoric good against the solitaire decks and shuts them down completely. Also very good against decks that want to cast multiple spells a turn, like pyromancer, it is also okay vs. hollow one assuming they don't get the nut draw. It is currently a one-of and should stay that way as a SB toolbox card.
kataki, war's wage I think it isn't as good as Stony silence, but it is a chord-able creature against any artifact heavy deck. It is a singleton for the SB.
thalia, guardian of thraben a powerful 2/1 first strike with the ability to slow down any deck using spells. It isn't as effective as eidolon against the solitaire decks. It still punishes them for not playing creatures. It is a nonbo with 5 Mana Coco. It is a one-of.
thalia, heretic cathar this is a more powerful version imo as it makes opponents lands come into play tapped. Effectively slowing their gameplay, and any blockers they wish to play comes into play tapped. Still having first strike along with a 3/2 body means she can effectively deal with a bunch of ground creatures. Same as before to a singleton in the board.
Do our decks ever run creature destruction? Like greens 'fight' cards or anything that could deal with blazing archon?
Westvale Abbey vs. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Which do you prefer for GB and which do you prefer for GW?
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
edit: i guess Coiling Oracle is a reason to play UG elves, but its been a hot minute since ive seen anyone use that build to any level of success.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)2) and 5) coincide because of hollow one decks mostly. But idk if hollow one has enough % of the metagame to warrant the cards.
3) agreed.
4)yeah, I would figure on that already. It's mostly an idea more than a realistic opportunity. It was a nice try for the idea maybe. I would've also considered 3 mana to avoid Lili of the veil sac as well. I am not sure how good that would be though.
I would use westvale Abbey, as you can make creatures off it if you should ever flood.
Just saw the new elf spoiled for m19, elvish rejuvenator is an edh card. 3 mana search for any land from the top 5 isn't good enough for the deck in modern. Maybe it is more powerful in legacy as it can get gaea's cradle?
I was hoping more from the new green walker. She is as generic as green has been, not being able to kill any creature makes her impact a lot worse. Vital force, garruk caller of beasts are a lot better in the grind match ups you want them in. The only difference is if you care about the naturalize ability, along with the niche kill a vault skirge/freebooter/mantis rider.
As far as I can see it pops up in some BG lists.
In our Deck it is often a one or two mana Slaughter games.
Can snap some key cards out of bad matchup decks (Oblivion Stone, anger of the gods, Supreme verdict
Sounds good to me so far.
Modern:
Pauper:
Vivian doesn't seem to be the right walker for 5 Mana in modern. It needs to be a very high impact card the moment you draw it and cast it for 5 in a fast format such as modern. If she made a beast/wolf as her +1 instead, I would have been on the boat.
But I wouldn't recommend any over CC or LtS.
If you've got 4 of each I can't see room for the other draw mechanisms.
(Note I'm a beginner at this)
walking ballista since there are devoted druid builds, you want something to do with infinite Mana other than ezuri. Ballista walker offers that option as an instant cast win button. It doesn't mean you have to hold it in your hand as well, with the large amount of Mana from archdruid. You should be able to cast this and get rid of pesky blockers, shoot to the face for next turn shaman lethal, clear the board against creature centric decks, etc. I believe this card will be the "spellskite" in a creature/control heavy format as both a combo piece and a removal spell. This would be a 2-3 copies depending how saturated your regional is with creature heavy decks.
eidolon of rhetoric it's a better aethesworn canonist as it hardlocked to all spells. You can immediately play it to control combo decks using cantrips; into playing a tempo game and reach critical mass for a slower t6-t7 kill on avg. 1 of is fine for the toolbox deck.
Just a few short ones until the weekend comes.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG