Just wondering, is it possible to run this deck without any vials? Like replacing them with 4 more removal spells or hand disruption. I have a playset of the core of the B/W shell with some Tithe Takers but I only have two vials.
Anyone see this list? Looks pretty sweet, think it deserves some discussion. I might be a litle biased since I'm on the GW plan as well. My list is fairly different from this one though and is currently being changed every few games.
I've seen some lists that don't run Vials, but they usually play Simian Spirit Guides and sometimes, Chalice of the Void (which is not a well positioned card on this meta, IMO). Maybe it could work, but you'd probably better make a bunch of changes on the list. I'd probably take out the Flickerwisps, for example, as they are not nearly as good without Vials.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I've seen some lists that don't run Vials, but they usually play Simian Spirit Guides and sometimes, Chalice of the Void (which is not a well positioned card on this meta, IMO). Maybe it could work, but you'd probably better make a bunch of changes on the list. I'd probably take out the Flickerwisps, for example, as they are not nearly as good without Vials.
I would totally disagree with you on the chalice of the void and it's position. This card is in a great place right night, it wrecks burn, bogles, living end, jund, 8 rack and storm.
I play the colorless eldrazi deck with serum powders and the chalice on 1 destroys decks. I have been tearing it up lately with this deck and usually when a new set comes out aggro picks back up meaning chalice is huge.
Chalice is just bad. I play colorless too and red prison with chalice. People only see how chalice destroyed opponent xy... But don't see the other 3525 games where it slowed down own turns for nothing
I've seen some lists that don't run Vials, but they usually play Simian Spirit Guides and sometimes, Chalice of the Void (which is not a well positioned card on this meta, IMO). Maybe it could work, but you'd probably better make a bunch of changes on the list. I'd probably take out the Flickerwisps, for example, as they are not nearly as good without Vials.
I would totally disagree with you on the chalice of the void and it's position. This card is in a great place right night, it wrecks burn, bogles, living end, jund, 8 rack and storm.
I play the colorless eldrazi deck with serum powders and the chalice on 1 destroys decks. I have been tearing it up lately with this deck and usually when a new set comes out aggro picks back up meaning chalice is huge.
Well... of all these decks, the only ones that actually are major players on the current meta as far as I know are Jund, Storm and Burn. But I don't agree with your statement about how good Chalice is vs Jund. It seems really bad against them to me. At it's best, you're preventing them from disrupting your hand on turn 1. Even if you do so, you're probably applying a 1 for 2 on yourself with a SSG in the process, which is good for them, anyways. Along with that, their best drops are CMC 2 and 3, and if Chalice gives a Jund player any trouble, they can just destroy it super easily with Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Kolaghan's Command or Assassin's Trophy.
The only powerful deck on the current meta that I see being severely hurt by Chalice is Izzet Phoenix. They play a lot of CMC 1 cantrips, and they don't have an answer for it on the mainboard. So, it can be a blowout against them.
It could be good vs Tron or GDS, but it still depends on a bunch of other factors. Against GDS you need to be on the play, and need to have SSG along with it, otherwise it's probably being discarded. Some versions of GDS also play Kolaghan's Command, which might answer it if needed. Against Tron it can be good too, but again, being on the play is important to try to stop the classic play of Piece + Map, into second Piece + crack Map into turn 3 Karn. If you're able to play it before they assemble Tron, than it can be good.
So... of the decks in the current meta, Chalice seems to me:
Izzet Phoenix - Super Good;
GDS - Medium (Good on the play, and along with SSG, otherwise, bad);
Burn - Super Good;
Humans - Super Bad;
Dredge - Super Bad;
Tron - Medium (Good before they assemble Tron);
Storm - Super Good;
Azusa Titan - Medium;
UW Control - Super Bad;
Jund - Super Bad;
Bant Spirits - Super Bad;
HS Affinity - Medium (Good on the play, and along with a SSG, otherwise, bad);
Jeskai - Good;
Vizier Company - Bad;
Titanshift - Super Bad;
Lantern - Super Good;
Mardu - Bad;
Hollow One - Medium;
Along with that, I think it's really important to mention the build concessions you do to play Chalice. You're probably not playing optimal 1 drops, for example. I did play Sun and Moon for a while last year, and a lot of times I felt bad about having an Abrade, Blessed Alliance or Lightning Helix instead of a Bolt or Path, for example. So considering Chalice forces you to play worse cards, and is still not good against a lot of the current meta, I stick with my opinion: Chalice is not well positioned.
Some of you were asking about a vialless DnT. if you guys check out Nikachu MTG on youtube he has a guy that does DnT videos. Here is a link to a deck tech he does.
Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
It is bad. Being on your turn only makes it pretty much unplayable for DnT. It may tax their removal a little bit (but they can just do it on their own turn) but it will not really stop anyone from "going off" like Thalia will.
Hello, everyone! I'm a former merfolk player who has been out of Modern for a few years, and I am kind of enamored with D&T. I will slowly try to get through some of the more recent pages of the thread, but can anyone recommend streams or YT playbacks to study?
As a Burn player, I'd like to chime in on the Chalice of the Void discussion. I think it's bad against burn. Decks that tend to run Chalice are often creature-based decks, or very slow control decks. Creature-based decks usually run Aether Vial. As a Burn player, when I'm playing vial-based creature decks, I usually side in spells like Destructive Revelry, Smash to Smithereens, Rakdos Charm, and Anger of the Gods (depending on the type of burn deck and my current sideboard) to deal with Vial at the very least. Chalice usually just serves to delay the opponent one turn, since they waste 2 mana to cast it, and then I pick it off with a 2cmc spell while often also getting in damage with the same spell.
Furthermore - Boros Burn plays lots of impactful 2cmc spells. I've had a chalice-on-1 hit the board against me numerous times and I end up just drawing all my Skullcracks, Lightning Helixs, and Boros Charms. Now, with the rise of Rakdos Burn in the meta, there does seem to be more 1cmc spells in the deck, but there are also plenty of spells that get around Chalice; Light Up the Stage, Skewer the Critics, and Rift Bolt are all spells that are cast for 1 mana but circumvent the ability of Chalice of the Void.
tl;dr: Chalice isn't great against Burn, and us burn players just laugh when it hits the field.
Ive been made aware of certain rules that are required to maintain the primer and forum here on mtgsalvation. I wasn’t aware and honestly, with adapting to parenthood, Ive slipped on my responsibilities here. I plan on letting go of the other forums on manage on this site and plan to exclusively put efforts in for you all here.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail.
I dunno if it'd be best posted somewhere on the front page Primer, in the Leonin Library, or stapled chronologically into the thread as quarterly updates... but I was a big fan of the "LSV Set Review"-esque thing that you did a couple times here highlighting D&T-relevant pickups. (Though I can't find an example to link to for the life of me.)
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail.
I dunno if it'd be best posted somewhere on the front page Primer, in the Leonin Library, or stapled chronologically into the thread as quarterly updates... but I was a big fan of the "LSV Set Review"-esque thing that you did a couple times here highlighting D&T-relevant pickups. (Though I can't find an example to link to for the life of me.)
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
Ditto. Plus I'd love to see some more commentary on color splashes, been meaning to go back to D&T and try a red splash.
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Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
I'm planning to build a second modern deck and want to ask your opinion. I currently play Ad Nauseam
Which do you think will be the more powerful deck long term: U/W Spirits or B/W Eldrazi and Taxes?
Bant spirits looks really strong, but its way out of my budget at the moment. I don't know anything about G/W Eldrazi and Taxes, but I would definitely consider it as well as long as it isn't too expensive. I'm leaning towards B/W Eldrazi because of the play style and price, but some people at my LGS don't think it's a good choice. Thanks!
You will lose a lot of games without doing anything, win a lot of games post sideboard and you'll never have any free win.
If you're okay with that play BW eldrazi, it's the best version at the moment in my opinion.
I'm planning to build a second modern deck and want to ask your opinion. I currently play Ad Nauseam
Which do you think will be the more powerful deck long term: U/W Spirits or B/W Eldrazi and Taxes?
Bant spirits looks really strong, but its way out of my budget at the moment. I don't know anything about G/W Eldrazi and Taxes, but I would definitely consider it as well as long as it isn't too expensive. I'm leaning towards B/W Eldrazi because of the play style and price, but some people at my LGS don't think it's a good choice. Thanks!
What version of DnT you should play depends on your Meta. B/W has more removal and more disruption but can have mana issues. Mono White has more land destruction and almost no mana problems and is the cheapest option. G/W is the most expensive but is really versatile with the sideboard options and the new knight of autumn. G/W also has less mana issues then B/W due to noble hierarch. Some prominent DnT players are really favoring G/W these days (like PleasentKenobi).
On MTGO all the decks are fairly cheap $100-250 (even spirits is only like $250). I would test them on there or use a friends account if you can to try them out before spending up to a grand to buy spirits in paper or even just the $400 for Mono White. You can also just sell the MTGO decks back when you are done for a fairly decent percent of what you paid.
I think BW Taxes is pretty underrated. It's a really good deck that greatly rewards you if you play it well. Of course, it has it's weakness (like the manabase), and bad match-ups. However, it can be really good if well piloted on the current meta.
One of the good things about it is, it pretty much has game against anything. Even the bad match-ups, are totally winnable if you play well and have a good sideboard plan. It also abuses a lot of interactions that non-experienced players usually don't know well, so you also have an edge there if you put effort into learning and optimizing the tricks.
The main reason for it to be underrated IMO is because Humans does pretty much the same things we do with BW Eldrazi and Taxes, but better positioned on the current meta. However, Eldrazi and Taxes is better against a bunch of things, and is more flexible due to having "actual lands". Humans' manabase allows them to play only creatures, and preferably Humans only.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Hi all! It's been a while. I recently played in the main event at GP Toronto with BW Eldrazi & Taxes. I always enjoy writing thorough tournament reports, so I'd like to share this one with you:
I included some thoughts on the Modern metagame, deck choices, and other tidbits that I think are insightful. Hopefully this is helpful and informative to some of you!
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1597871#paper
GW Death and Taxes WG
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I would totally disagree with you on the chalice of the void and it's position. This card is in a great place right night, it wrecks burn, bogles, living end, jund, 8 rack and storm.
I play the colorless eldrazi deck with serum powders and the chalice on 1 destroys decks. I have been tearing it up lately with this deck and usually when a new set comes out aggro picks back up meaning chalice is huge.
Well... of all these decks, the only ones that actually are major players on the current meta as far as I know are Jund, Storm and Burn. But I don't agree with your statement about how good Chalice is vs Jund. It seems really bad against them to me. At it's best, you're preventing them from disrupting your hand on turn 1. Even if you do so, you're probably applying a 1 for 2 on yourself with a SSG in the process, which is good for them, anyways. Along with that, their best drops are CMC 2 and 3, and if Chalice gives a Jund player any trouble, they can just destroy it super easily with Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Kolaghan's Command or Assassin's Trophy.
The only powerful deck on the current meta that I see being severely hurt by Chalice is Izzet Phoenix. They play a lot of CMC 1 cantrips, and they don't have an answer for it on the mainboard. So, it can be a blowout against them.
It could be good vs Tron or GDS, but it still depends on a bunch of other factors. Against GDS you need to be on the play, and need to have SSG along with it, otherwise it's probably being discarded. Some versions of GDS also play Kolaghan's Command, which might answer it if needed. Against Tron it can be good too, but again, being on the play is important to try to stop the classic play of Piece + Map, into second Piece + crack Map into turn 3 Karn. If you're able to play it before they assemble Tron, than it can be good.
So... of the decks in the current meta, Chalice seems to me:
Izzet Phoenix - Super Good;
GDS - Medium (Good on the play, and along with SSG, otherwise, bad);
Burn - Super Good;
Humans - Super Bad;
Dredge - Super Bad;
Tron - Medium (Good before they assemble Tron);
Storm - Super Good;
Azusa Titan - Medium;
UW Control - Super Bad;
Jund - Super Bad;
Bant Spirits - Super Bad;
HS Affinity - Medium (Good on the play, and along with a SSG, otherwise, bad);
Jeskai - Good;
Vizier Company - Bad;
Titanshift - Super Bad;
Lantern - Super Good;
Mardu - Bad;
Hollow One - Medium;
Along with that, I think it's really important to mention the build concessions you do to play Chalice. You're probably not playing optimal 1 drops, for example. I did play Sun and Moon for a while last year, and a lot of times I felt bad about having an Abrade, Blessed Alliance or Lightning Helix instead of a Bolt or Path, for example. So considering Chalice forces you to play worse cards, and is still not good against a lot of the current meta, I stick with my opinion: Chalice is not well positioned.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmgawMQUF-I
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
It is bad. Being on your turn only makes it pretty much unplayable for DnT. It may tax their removal a little bit (but they can just do it on their own turn) but it will not really stop anyone from "going off" like Thalia will.
Furthermore - Boros Burn plays lots of impactful 2cmc spells. I've had a chalice-on-1 hit the board against me numerous times and I end up just drawing all my Skullcracks, Lightning Helixs, and Boros Charms. Now, with the rise of Rakdos Burn in the meta, there does seem to be more 1cmc spells in the deck, but there are also plenty of spells that get around Chalice; Light Up the Stage, Skewer the Critics, and Rift Bolt are all spells that are cast for 1 mana but circumvent the ability of Chalice of the Void.
tl;dr: Chalice isn't great against Burn, and us burn players just laugh when it hits the field.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Ive been made aware of certain rules that are required to maintain the primer and forum here on mtgsalvation. I wasn’t aware and honestly, with adapting to parenthood, Ive slipped on my responsibilities here. I plan on letting go of the other forums on manage on this site and plan to exclusively put efforts in for you all here.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
Ditto. Plus I'd love to see some more commentary on color splashes, been meaning to go back to D&T and try a red splash.
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Which do you think will be the more powerful deck long term: U/W Spirits or B/W Eldrazi and Taxes?
Bant spirits looks really strong, but its way out of my budget at the moment. I don't know anything about G/W Eldrazi and Taxes, but I would definitely consider it as well as long as it isn't too expensive. I'm leaning towards B/W Eldrazi because of the play style and price, but some people at my LGS don't think it's a good choice. Thanks!
If you're okay with that play BW eldrazi, it's the best version at the moment in my opinion.
What version of DnT you should play depends on your Meta. B/W has more removal and more disruption but can have mana issues. Mono White has more land destruction and almost no mana problems and is the cheapest option. G/W is the most expensive but is really versatile with the sideboard options and the new knight of autumn. G/W also has less mana issues then B/W due to noble hierarch. Some prominent DnT players are really favoring G/W these days (like PleasentKenobi).
On MTGO all the decks are fairly cheap $100-250 (even spirits is only like $250). I would test them on there or use a friends account if you can to try them out before spending up to a grand to buy spirits in paper or even just the $400 for Mono White. You can also just sell the MTGO decks back when you are done for a fairly decent percent of what you paid.
One of the good things about it is, it pretty much has game against anything. Even the bad match-ups, are totally winnable if you play well and have a good sideboard plan. It also abuses a lot of interactions that non-experienced players usually don't know well, so you also have an edge there if you put effort into learning and optimizing the tricks.
The main reason for it to be underrated IMO is because Humans does pretty much the same things we do with BW Eldrazi and Taxes, but better positioned on the current meta. However, Eldrazi and Taxes is better against a bunch of things, and is more flexible due to having "actual lands". Humans' manabase allows them to play only creatures, and preferably Humans only.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Originally I had planned on building 5c Humans but I'm slightly curious about reasons to play DnT over Humans.
What makes you play or come back to DnT? What variant do you run and how well positioned is it?
BW Eldrazi & Taxes - GP Toronto Retrospective
I included some thoughts on the Modern metagame, deck choices, and other tidbits that I think are insightful. Hopefully this is helpful and informative to some of you!
Cheers,
Zimu