Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
By taxing the manabase, you prevent their ability to block/attack. This is the basis for how Winter Orb is effectively used. Hokori is simply a (fragile) Winter Orb with legs. The reason cards like Archangel of Tithes and Ghostly Prison work with it is that you are effectively locking out your opponent's ability to attack/block. This goes hand-in-hand with the mana denial plan built into the deck.
As for Root Maze, if you have room, you could do worse if you're going this route anyway.
The reason that this is relevant with "only one Hokori" is that there is currently an abundance of great choices available for this deck. If you're going to play an easily-removed 4-drop over cards like Thought-Knot Seer, Restoration Angel, old-school Linvala, and Reality Smasher, you may as well get your money's worth.
If you start removing creatures for cards like root maze and ghostly prison, then the deck becomes less D&T and more of an enchantment prison type deck, which is fine, but not really D&T. The only point of mentioning Hokori, is because the main issue with Hokori is the weakness to bolt, but if you are running 4 skites and 3 selfless spirits (like the example list posted by catmix) then that weakness is much less of an issue. That is all. I fail to see how suggesting a 3/1 Resto/Hokori split or 3/1 TKS/Hokori split means that I need to start considering cards like root maze and ghostly prison.
The point is that it's not worth considering.
You're trading proven, strong choices that have value on their own for a card that only has impact if played alongside other cards...and at the 4-mana slot.
It's a build-around card, not a one-off.
I would never play Hokori either, or any 4 mana card with less than 4 toughness, but that is also because I would never play four spellskites with 3 selfless spirits. But if I did then it allows the ability to play more fragile creatures like Hokori. I agree that Hokori is a build around card. Of course D&T plays MANY of the cards that build around him, so your point is moot.
It sounds like your point is to avoid discussion of old cards that you've deemed "not worth considering". However, I would say the point of a forum is discussion, especially as new sets are released. I think reconsidering old cards that could provide new interactions to be a worthwhile pursuit. THC is a natural fit with Hokori to produce a very powerful board state, even more so if you have skites and spirits to protect from removal. Not my cup of tea personally. I prefer a little more aggression. But for those who like a more controlling style for D&T, I think it is "worth considering".
You obviously disagree, which you could have simply stated in your initial reply instead of being obtuse.
My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
It is nice to see us D&T players get some good results, congrats to all of you!
Also me playing with kor skyfisher means i certainly value 2 power 2 mana flyer in the form of selfless spirit. I don't think i need it in my list because eternal witness is my creature destruction protection, but it seems like a strong option for non wit builds.
On a side note i purchased 2 gaddock teeg for my sideboard (using the prize i got from top 8'ing), can't wait to see the guy in action!
Speaking about dumb beaters. Guys, what do u think on Abyssal Persecutor?
Might be ok in a BW version?
How are you planning on killing it? With 4 Path to exile and 4 Flickerwisp it seems really unreliable, especially when it makes your other cards bad (like having to hold wisp or path in hand to kill after a potentiall lethal damage). It doesn't look good.
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This is my latest idea of a list splashing blue for Visions in the late game, and using mangara as a form of removal/ land denial.
Any opinions? I could splash for Clique with filter lands but I tried earlier and seemed to need more that the 4 filter lands, and spell queller only seems helpful with meddling mage.
Ancestral Vision is card advantage, this deck is tempo. AV is really really bad in this deck.
Speaking about dumb beaters. Guys, what do u think on Abyssal Persecutor?
I certainly like it more than the Eldrazi version (another 4cmc 6/6 flyer with downside) but I agree with darktutor that D&T lacks a dependable kill switch to play it reliably. (Losing a game because you can't kill your demon for two-turns would be miserable.) Dedicated kill switch creatures are commonly used by Aristocrats-archetype decks, and those decks tend to favor no-mana sacrifice outlets: Viscera Seer is a current favorite for it's low cmc and bonus value, while Cartel Aristocrat was the old staple from the direct-damage days.
Abyssal Persecutor could be decent but seems difficult to slot into most lists since he ideally wants a small entourage of sacc outlets to slot in with him. A dedicated list might work, but until I see a list that proves otherwise I imagine decks running Persecutor look more like Aristocrats decks and less like D&T.
Cheers for brewing in the world of BW non-Eldrazi, though, and good luck out there!
Have you looked into Athreos, God of Passage now that Selfless Spirit has been released? The Spirit sounds strong according to the mono-W testers so far, but getting a free Bolt seems even better!
Speaking about dumb beaters. Guys, what do u think on Abyssal Persecutor?
I certainly like it more than the Eldrazi version (another 4cmc 6/6 flyer with downside) but I agree with darktutor that D&T lacks a dependable kill switch to play it reliably. (Losing a game because you can't kill your demon for two-turns would be miserable.) Dedicated kill switch creatures are commonly used by Aristocrats-archetype decks, and those decks tend to favor no-mana sacrifice outlets: Viscera Seer is a current favorite for it's low cmc and bonus value, while Cartel Aristocrat was the old staple from the direct-damage days.
Abyssal Persecutor could be decent but seems difficult to slot into most lists since he ideally wants a small entourage of sacc outlets to slot in with him. A dedicated list might work, but until I see a list that proves otherwise I imagine decks running Persecutor look more like Aristocrats decks and less like D&T.
Cheers for brewing in the world of BW non-Eldrazi, though, and good luck out there!
Have you looked into Athreos, God of Passage now that Selfless Spirit has been released? The Spirit sounds strong according to the mono-W testers so far, but getting a free Bolt seems even better!
I play BW Taxes w/o Eldrazi and there is no need for a dumb beater that doesn't do anything else than beating, deck performs great at just doing what it does. No need for a creature that doesn't do anything else than damage, we're not midrange nor control. The only reason to splash for B, to me, is to add Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler and boy do they perform?! Zealous Persecution in the board is great as well.
I could see Athreos in a control heavy meta as a SB card. But if you really want to exploit Selfless and Athreos as a mini combo, you'd have to be playing a different spin of the deck and would probably have to build from there forward.
Now that I finally got my hands in Horizon Canopy (3 of them ) I might try the MonoW and GW versions of the deck, but BW has performing incredibly well (haven't lost a round of swiss in the 2 'big' tournaments I played it since I brewed it: 6-0-1 and 5-0-1 respectively).
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This is my latest idea of a list splashing blue for Visions in the late game, and using mangara as a form of removal/ land denial.
Any opinions? I could splash for Clique with filter lands but I tried earlier and seemed to need more that the 4 filter lands, and spell queller only seems helpful with meddling mage.
Vision is a T1 play, not a late game play. It's essentially another Æther Vial numbers 5 and 6; it either gets played early, or it stays in your hand until it's effectively useless. I stand by my assessment in the blue splash mini-primer:
Ancestral Vision. Ancestral Vision has finally come off the ban list, and it’s officially done very little to the format. I’ve never seen it been run in a WU list, but I’m convinced that it has untapped potential for our deck. Yes, it’s a terrible late-game topdeck, but so is Æther Vial and we run it anyway. Ancestral Vision helps smooth out our curve by being a 1-drop, and if it resolves, it nets you 2 cards 4 turns later. That might sound anticlimactic, but our deck was built to slow our opponents down. If anyone can survive 4 turns, it’s us. Unlike Judge's Familiar, Ancestral Vision is pretty awkward with Æther Vial because you can’t use Æther Vial to sneak it into play. I think the best way to squeeze this card into a WU Death and Taxes decklist is to count the number of Æther Vials that you would like to be able to play, subtract the 4 that you will play, and make the rest of the slots Ancestral Visions. If someone tests this, please let me know how it works out.
Mangara works in extremely small doses, much like Mana Tithe. If you want to run one, then it's probably going to be both annoying and effective against the opponents that you catch off guard with it. If opponents know they can get extra value out of their removal by holding it up waiting for Mangara, it's going to end badly for you, which is why most people in this thread don't play it. It's essentially high risk and high reward, but it essentially increases your variance, which tends to be the opposite of what competitive players want to do.
Spell Queller is nuts, and it should be in your deck. It steals tempo from your opponent like it's nobody's business, and especially so with a Thalia on the battlefield. I'm also standing by my original assessment on that one:
Spell Queller. The new hotness. It's unclear if this is the missing piece WU D&T needs, but it's clear that this card is strong. There are a lot of reasons to use it, but the most important ones are that Spell Queller is disruption with both legs and evasion.
In many situations, the text on this card will read "Flash, Flying, Counter target spell with CMC 4 or less". It's pure value in a tempo deck, and it's almost a better Mana Leak.
Critics will be quick to point out that this only delays a problem, rather than stop it. That's true, but Spell Queller is never card disadvantage. It trades 1-for-1 with most relevant spells (like Inquisition of Kozilek does), and if your opponent wants that spell back, he or she has to spend another card to get back their original one.
But Spell Queller actually gets even better than that for two reasons: first, it's templated for flickerabuse. In other words, it's templated like Fiend Hunter rather than Banisher Priest. If you flicker Spell Queller while its first ability is on the stack, your opponent will never get the chance to play the exiled spell. That's really nice for fans of Eldrazi Displacer, because you don't need a Vial with a Wisp or a Restoration Angel in hand.
And second, Spell Queller is built for tempo gains. Imagine your opponent tries to cast a noncreature spell through the Thalia tax. For example, he or she tries to play Kozilek's Return to try and wipe the board. That spell would ordinarily cost 3 mana, but now it costs 4. You play Spell Queller and exile the spell. Now your opponent has to spend another card removing the Spell Queller (which also probably costs more thanks to Thalia), and even when he or she does, the "free" spell still costs 1 mana, because the Thalia tax applies again. If you've ever used Vryn Wingmare in addition to Thalia against Living End, you know how valuable tempo gains can be. With a Thalia and a Wingmare on the battlefield, it takes 7 mana for Living End to go off, rather than 3. With a Thalia and a Spell Queller, it also takes at least 7 extra mana to go off (with the caveat that the mana can be paid over 2 different turns); 4 to play a cascadespell, 1 to play Living End, 1 to Slaughter Pact the Spell Queller that exiled the Living End, and then 1 to play the Living End again.
As for my thoughts on the deck... it's just not how I would have built it. I don't like TKS as a T4 play, and without Eldrazi Temple, that's the earliest that it can hit the battlefield. I don't really understand how your deck wins the game, which is a common problem for WU D&T. You have access to some fancy plays, but you'll be facing down opponents whose cards are significantly more efficient than yours in a vacuum, and you have nothing that can close out a game on its own except Restoration Angel.
It depends on what else is in your sideboard, but I would much rather be running Declaration in Stone at the moment. With Dredge and Zoo decks making a comeback, instant-speed removal that hits multiple permanents at once and costs your opponents tempo to recover seems really good. Especially against Dredge, where you just wait for them to have a bunch of Bloodghasts or Prized Amalgams and then you get rid of them all in one removal spell. Sure, Dredge will just dig through the rest of the deck a few turns later, but what are they going to find that wins them the game?
Ancestral Vision is card advantage, this deck is tempo. AV is really really bad in this deck.
This criticism is a head-scratcher. Tempo decks need card advantage too, mostly because it stops them from running out of gas when everything else they play is card disadvantage. Unless you're piloting a deck that's pure aggro (and we're not), it's hard to envision a situation in which "card advantage" is a bad thing. Admittedly, AV is a special case where the card advantage may only be relevant after you've already lost because you were facing aggro, but I don't think that's what you were going for when you suggested that AV is really bad here.
AV is like Æther Vial; it's great in your opening hand, but it's a terrible topdeck. It also loses value in multiples, depending on the matchup.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
It depends on what else is in your sideboard, but I would much rather be running Declaration in Stone at the moment. With Dredge and Zoo decks making a comeback, instant-speed removal that hits multiple permanents at once and costs your opponents tempo to recover seems really good. Especially against Dredge, where you just wait for them to have a bunch of Bloodghasts or Prized Amalgams and then you get rid of them all in one removal spell. Sure, Dredge will just dig through the rest of the deck a few turns later, but what are they going to find that wins them the game?
Except Declaration in Stone is a sorcery, which in most cases unless it gets more than one target it is strictly worse, except against enchantment removal which I'm not worried about.
Also if you want a sideboard against Dredge, wouldn't Comeuppance work much better?
I play BW Taxes w/o Eldrazi and there is no need for a dumb beater that doesn't do anything else than beating [...] No need for a creature that doesn't do anything else than damage
I hope you didn't say that loud enough for your Serra Avengers to overhear, they will be heartbroken.
Also, please excuse me for discussing sacc' outlets after reading your post.
How are you planning on killing it? With 4 Path to exile and 4 Flickerwisp it seems really unreliable, especially when it makes your other cards bad (like having to hold wisp or path in hand to kill after a potentiall lethal damage). It doesn't look good.
The first read through I thought you were saying "Playing around the win / lose clause is a liability for D&T lists." and completely missed the part where you said "The biggest issue stopping Persecutor being used as a black Reality Smasher is the lack of protection and haste, which means it will often die to cheap removal (losing us tempo) before it can become useful."
Casually dismissing Abyssal Persecutor by mentioning all the gas it'd take out to fit in was my mistake; I guess I should have called it hot smelly garbage.
I could see Athreos in a control heavy meta as a SB card. But if you really want to exploit Selfless and Athreos as a mini combo, you'd have to be playing a different spin of the deck and would probably have to build from there forward.
I think maindeck Selfless can shine outside of control heavy meta. Used during combat it can basically become a Holy Day or Encircling Fissure depending on how you use it. Athreos lets you recycle that Holy Day every turn for its 2cmc casting cost until your opponent decides they'd rather take a Bolt to the face.
As far as making room for Athreos, he's not horribly uncommon; two in six of the BW non-Eldrazi lists posted on mtgTop8 since the start of this year have had 2xAthreos maindeck. Something like this would be a start, where Spirit could slide into maybe the 8.5tails and/or Serra slots (though that'd hurt the Sword synergy). The harder job might be doing that while making room for ThaliaHC.
It depends on what else is in your sideboard, but I would much rather be running Declaration in Stone at the moment. With Dredge and Zoo decks making a comeback, instant-speed removal that hits multiple permanents at once and costs your opponents tempo to recover seems really good. Especially against Dredge, where you just wait for them to have a bunch of Bloodghasts or Prized Amalgams and then you get rid of them all in one removal spell. Sure, Dredge will just dig through the rest of the deck a few turns later, but what are they going to find that wins them the game?
Except Declaration in Stone is a sorcery, which in most cases unless it gets more than one target it is strictly worse, except against enchantment removal which I'm not worried about.
Also if you want a sideboard against Dredge, wouldn't Comeuppance work much better?
Fair point about Declaration in Stone being a sorcery. I thought it was an instant. But I'd still rather play it than any of the options you mentioned.
Comeuppance is a commander card, and it's not Modern legal.
Sunlance is more mana efficient than Declaration, but it trades 1-for-1 with Zoo threats, and it doesn't do any work against Dredge. Detention Sphere is probably the best option, but you need to be in blue to play it.
DOUBLE EDIT: I like Declaration in Stone because it's also particularly useful against decks like Dredge, which are becoming popular at the moment. In essence, it just gives me more outs against a greater percentage of the field.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I get where your coming from, that it could be used as a sideboard as well against dredge but could be used in other match-ups.
basically it's a more versatile card. Also it works for killing tokens from Pyromancer, Gideon, Elspeth etc.
I play BW Taxes w/o Eldrazi and there is no need for a dumb beater that doesn't do anything else than beating [...] No need for a creature that doesn't do anything else than damage
I hope you didn't say that loud enough for your Serra Avengers to overhear, they will be heartbroken.
Oh but they do something else than beating, they present a reasonable clock that's both offensive and defensive (Vigilance) and it's by far the best sword carrier (unless you have sided the Mirran Crusaders and can get them to connect). Anyway, it's the weakest link in the D&T chain, and one of the first creatures to shave for inclusions like THC.
How are you planning on killing it? With 4 Path to exile and 4 Flickerwisp it seems really unreliable, especially when it makes your other cards bad (like having to hold wisp or path in hand to kill after a potentiall lethal damage). It doesn't look good.
The first read through I thought you were saying "Playing around the win / lose clause is a liability for D&T lists." and completely missed the part where you said "The biggest issue stopping Persecutor being used as a black Reality Smasher is the lack of protection and haste, which means it will often die to cheap removal (losing us tempo) before it can become useful."
Casually dismissing Abyssal Persecutor by mentioning all the gas it'd take out to fit in was my mistake; I guess I should have called it hot smelly garbage.
I don't quite get what you said , honestly. I mean, regardless of what the opponent does (if it's easier or not to kill it and if there's value for them doing it), the card is a liabilty, doesn't tax, and the cards that potentially make it good don't tax either and don't fit into the deck. It doesn't matter if it has or not haste or protection, even if the other side of the table is uncontested, the card ends up putting you behind on tempo under the promise that 'if you get to remove me from the battlefield after I did the damage, everything will be good' just doesn't fit the deck.
I could see Athreos in a control heavy meta as a SB card. But if you really want to exploit Selfless and Athreos as a mini combo, you'd have to be playing a different spin of the deck and would probably have to build from there forward.
I think maindeck Selfless can shine outside of control heavy meta. Used during combat it can basically become a Holy Day or Encircling Fissure depending on how you use it. Athreos lets you recycle that Holy Day every turn for its 2cmc casting cost until your opponent decides they'd rather take a Bolt to the face.
As far as making room for Athreos, he's not horribly uncommon; two in six of the BW non-Eldrazi lists posted on mtgTop8 since the start of this year have had 2xAthreos maindeck. Something like this would be a start, where Spirit could slide into maybe the 8.5tails and/or Serra slots (though that'd hurt the Sword synergy). The harder job might be doing that while making room for ThaliaHC.
Sure, I did the search and found them: 2 lists form 20/01/2016 and 24/01/2016 which are almost identical. Those lists put up that result in those MTGO leagues and vanished into oblivion, I'm sure there is a reason for that. The interaction of Athreos is not bad, but the card just doesn't pull its weight that much. I'm not saying it's horrible, I'm saying it's too much trouble for the reward plus it's a horrible topdeck on an empty board. If you want to max them out to 'ensure' (can't really guarantee you'll get there though) that you'll draw them you'll end up trading consistency for a little combo that won't get you as many rewards as you'd want. Don't get me wrong, but even Treasure Hunt combo decks got isolated good results in MTGO, but that doesn't make them viable. The list you proposed there has a plethora of bad cards like Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Bojuka Bog, Wrath of God, Temple of Silence and Isolated Chapel (with only 9 enablers). There is a reason why it never popped out again, and that reason is either they kept trying those cards and never won again, or they just dropped those cards because they were not where they wanted to be.
Just my 2 cents.
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So last weekend I played in a 32 person PPTQ and my thing in the ice / pyromancers ascension deck was paired again mono white D&T/Hatebears round 1 and 2. I felt completely hopeless. If you can't beat em join em.
So I now am building my own mono white D&T deck. Are there any streamers or good you tube videos I can watch to learn the details on how to play this deck?
It depends on what else is in your sideboard, but I would much rather be running Declaration in Stone at the moment. With Dredge and Zoo decks making a comeback, instant-speed removal that hits multiple permanents at once and costs your opponents tempo to recover seems really good. Especially against Dredge, where you just wait for them to have a bunch of Bloodghasts or Prized Amalgams and then you get rid of them all in one removal spell. Sure, Dredge will just dig through the rest of the deck a few turns later, but what are they going to find that wins them the game?
Except Declaration in Stone is a sorcery, which in most cases unless it gets more than one target it is strictly worse, except against enchantment removal which I'm not worried about.
Also if you want a sideboard against Dredge, wouldn't Comeuppance work much better?
Fair point about Declaration in Stone being a sorcery. I thought it was an instant. But I'd still rather play it than any of the options you mentioned.
Comeuppance is a commander card, and it's not Modern legal.
Sunlance is more mana efficient than Declaration, but it trades 1-for-1 with Zoo threats, and it doesn't do any work against Dredge. Detention Sphere is probably the best option, but you need to be in blue to play it.
DOUBLE EDIT: I like Declaration in Stone because it's also particularly useful against decks like Dredge, which are becoming popular at the moment. In essence, it just gives me more outs against a greater percentage of the field.
I used to like Sunlance someday, but Declaration in stone was my idea because of decks like dredge, tiny zoo, random goblins, elves, merfolks, tokens, lingering souls' decks, human decks and similars. I don't take my RiP out of my sideboard, ever. It's nuts against a lot of decks
Guys... I was testing mono W version with 4 Selfless spirit and no spellskite (like agua_benta says)... let me say that im a believer , the card is the real deal!!! Dont know if 3 or 4 is the correct number, but is a great 2 drop. He can help the clock, protect your guys and give us a better game against Tron. Thalia was great too...
So, based on the latest SCG, it seems that mono-W D&T is back on the map. I'd like to get some thoughts on my list (which is loosely based on EronRelentless' list):
So last weekend I played in a 32 person PPTQ and my thing in the ice / pyromancers ascension deck was paired again mono white D&T/Hatebears round 1 and 2. I felt completely hopeless. If you can't beat em join em.
So I now am building my own mono white D&T deck. Are there any streamers or good you tube videos I can watch to learn the details on how to play this deck?
Cheers!
Welcome to the cool kids club! Check out the first page of the primer and you will see a list of youtube videos. Also @deathandcatmix streams weekly and will post here most the times before he goes on.
I prefer spellskite, because of the constant wave of bolts, Helix's, PTE's, etc... that spellskite deals with quite well.
He is also able to protect multiple guys on some occasions, such as a bolt + Helix.
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I would never play Hokori either, or any 4 mana card with less than 4 toughness, but that is also because I would never play four spellskites with 3 selfless spirits. But if I did then it allows the ability to play more fragile creatures like Hokori. I agree that Hokori is a build around card. Of course D&T plays MANY of the cards that build around him, so your point is moot.
It sounds like your point is to avoid discussion of old cards that you've deemed "not worth considering". However, I would say the point of a forum is discussion, especially as new sets are released. I think reconsidering old cards that could provide new interactions to be a worthwhile pursuit. THC is a natural fit with Hokori to produce a very powerful board state, even more so if you have skites and spirits to protect from removal. Not my cup of tea personally. I prefer a little more aggression. But for those who like a more controlling style for D&T, I think it is "worth considering".
You obviously disagree, which you could have simply stated in your initial reply instead of being obtuse.
Also me playing with kor skyfisher means i certainly value 2 power 2 mana flyer in the form of selfless spirit. I don't think i need it in my list because eternal witness is my creature destruction protection, but it seems like a strong option for non wit builds.
On a side note i purchased 2 gaddock teeg for my sideboard (using the prize i got from top 8'ing), can't wait to see the guy in action!
Might be ok in a BW version?
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
How are you planning on killing it? With 4 Path to exile and 4 Flickerwisp it seems really unreliable, especially when it makes your other cards bad (like having to hold wisp or path in hand to kill after a potentiall lethal damage). It doesn't look good.
Ancestral Vision is card advantage, this deck is tempo. AV is really really bad in this deck.
Abyssal Persecutor could be decent but seems difficult to slot into most lists since he ideally wants a small entourage of sacc outlets to slot in with him. A dedicated list might work, but until I see a list that proves otherwise I imagine decks running Persecutor look more like Aristocrats decks and less like D&T.
Cheers for brewing in the world of BW non-Eldrazi, though, and good luck out there!
Have you looked into Athreos, God of Passage now that Selfless Spirit has been released? The Spirit sounds strong according to the mono-W testers so far, but getting a free Bolt seems even better!
I play BW Taxes w/o Eldrazi and there is no need for a dumb beater that doesn't do anything else than beating, deck performs great at just doing what it does. No need for a creature that doesn't do anything else than damage, we're not midrange nor control. The only reason to splash for B, to me, is to add Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler and boy do they perform?! Zealous Persecution in the board is great as well.
I could see Athreos in a control heavy meta as a SB card. But if you really want to exploit Selfless and Athreos as a mini combo, you'd have to be playing a different spin of the deck and would probably have to build from there forward.
Now that I finally got my hands in Horizon Canopy (3 of them ) I might try the MonoW and GW versions of the deck, but BW has performing incredibly well (haven't lost a round of swiss in the 2 'big' tournaments I played it since I brewed it: 6-0-1 and 5-0-1 respectively).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105643
Nice to see 2 D&T top a big event!
Mangara works in extremely small doses, much like Mana Tithe. If you want to run one, then it's probably going to be both annoying and effective against the opponents that you catch off guard with it. If opponents know they can get extra value out of their removal by holding it up waiting for Mangara, it's going to end badly for you, which is why most people in this thread don't play it. It's essentially high risk and high reward, but it essentially increases your variance, which tends to be the opposite of what competitive players want to do.
Spell Queller is nuts, and it should be in your deck. It steals tempo from your opponent like it's nobody's business, and especially so with a Thalia on the battlefield. I'm also standing by my original assessment on that one:
As for my thoughts on the deck... it's just not how I would have built it. I don't like TKS as a T4 play, and without Eldrazi Temple, that's the earliest that it can hit the battlefield. I don't really understand how your deck wins the game, which is a common problem for WU D&T. You have access to some fancy plays, but you'll be facing down opponents whose cards are significantly more efficient than yours in a vacuum, and you have nothing that can close out a game on its own except Restoration Angel.
It depends on what else is in your sideboard, but I would much rather be running Declaration in Stone at the moment. With Dredge and Zoo decks making a comeback, instant-speed removal that hits multiple permanents at once and costs your opponents tempo to recover seems really good. Especially against Dredge, where you just wait for them to have a bunch of Bloodghasts or Prized Amalgams and then you get rid of them all in one removal spell. Sure, Dredge will just dig through the rest of the deck a few turns later, but what are they going to find that wins them the game?
This criticism is a head-scratcher. Tempo decks need card advantage too, mostly because it stops them from running out of gas when everything else they play is card disadvantage. Unless you're piloting a deck that's pure aggro (and we're not), it's hard to envision a situation in which "card advantage" is a bad thing. Admittedly, AV is a special case where the card advantage may only be relevant after you've already lost because you were facing aggro, but I don't think that's what you were going for when you suggested that AV is really bad here.
AV is like Æther Vial; it's great in your opening hand, but it's a terrible topdeck. It also loses value in multiples, depending on the matchup.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Except Declaration in Stone is a sorcery, which in most cases unless it gets more than one target it is strictly worse, except against enchantment removal which I'm not worried about.
Also if you want a sideboard against Dredge, wouldn't Comeuppance work much better?
Also, please excuse me for discussing sacc' outlets after reading your post.
The first read through I thought you were saying "Playing around the win / lose clause is a liability for D&T lists." and completely missed the part where you said "The biggest issue stopping Persecutor being used as a black Reality Smasher is the lack of protection and haste, which means it will often die to cheap removal (losing us tempo) before it can become useful."
Casually dismissing Abyssal Persecutor by mentioning all the gas it'd take out to fit in was my mistake; I guess I should have called it hot smelly garbage.
I kid, I kid. Joking aside, though.
I think maindeck Selfless can shine outside of control heavy meta. Used during combat it can basically become a Holy Day or Encircling Fissure depending on how you use it. Athreos lets you recycle that Holy Day every turn for its 2cmc casting cost until your opponent decides they'd rather take a Bolt to the face.
As far as making room for Athreos, he's not horribly uncommon; two in six of the BW non-Eldrazi lists posted on mtgTop8 since the start of this year have had 2xAthreos maindeck. Something like this would be a start, where Spirit could slide into maybe the 8.5tails and/or Serra slots (though that'd hurt the Sword synergy). The harder job might be doing that while making room for ThaliaHC.
Comeuppance is a commander card, and it's not Modern legal.
Sunlance is more mana efficient than Declaration, but it trades 1-for-1 with Zoo threats, and it doesn't do any work against Dredge. Detention Sphere is probably the best option, but you need to be in blue to play it.
EDIT: Also, if you just need a sideboard against Dredge, Rest in Peace is probably the card that you're looking for. It also nerfs Tarmogoyf, Kalitas, delve anything, and Snapcaster Mage.
DOUBLE EDIT: I like Declaration in Stone because it's also particularly useful against decks like Dredge, which are becoming popular at the moment. In essence, it just gives me more outs against a greater percentage of the field.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I get where your coming from, that it could be used as a sideboard as well against dredge but could be used in other match-ups.
basically it's a more versatile card. Also it works for killing tokens from Pyromancer, Gideon, Elspeth etc.
Sorry for mentioning a card legal in commander.
As far as removal, to each his own.
Oh but they do something else than beating, they present a reasonable clock that's both offensive and defensive (Vigilance) and it's by far the best sword carrier (unless you have sided the Mirran Crusaders and can get them to connect). Anyway, it's the weakest link in the D&T chain, and one of the first creatures to shave for inclusions like THC.
I don't quite get what you said , honestly. I mean, regardless of what the opponent does (if it's easier or not to kill it and if there's value for them doing it), the card is a liabilty, doesn't tax, and the cards that potentially make it good don't tax either and don't fit into the deck. It doesn't matter if it has or not haste or protection, even if the other side of the table is uncontested, the card ends up putting you behind on tempo under the promise that 'if you get to remove me from the battlefield after I did the damage, everything will be good' just doesn't fit the deck.
Sure, I did the search and found them: 2 lists form 20/01/2016 and 24/01/2016 which are almost identical. Those lists put up that result in those MTGO leagues and vanished into oblivion, I'm sure there is a reason for that. The interaction of Athreos is not bad, but the card just doesn't pull its weight that much. I'm not saying it's horrible, I'm saying it's too much trouble for the reward plus it's a horrible topdeck on an empty board. If you want to max them out to 'ensure' (can't really guarantee you'll get there though) that you'll draw them you'll end up trading consistency for a little combo that won't get you as many rewards as you'd want. Don't get me wrong, but even Treasure Hunt combo decks got isolated good results in MTGO, but that doesn't make them viable. The list you proposed there has a plethora of bad cards like Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Bojuka Bog, Wrath of God, Temple of Silence and Isolated Chapel (with only 9 enablers). There is a reason why it never popped out again, and that reason is either they kept trying those cards and never won again, or they just dropped those cards because they were not where they wanted to be.
Just my 2 cents.
So I now am building my own mono white D&T deck. Are there any streamers or good you tube videos I can watch to learn the details on how to play this deck?
Cheers!
I used to like Sunlance someday, but Declaration in stone was my idea because of decks like dredge, tiny zoo, random goblins, elves, merfolks, tokens, lingering souls' decks, human decks and similars. I don't take my RiP out of my sideboard, ever. It's nuts against a lot of decks
Selfless spirit is here to stay IMO!!!
*My version dont have eldrazis
Death and taxes / UW control
4 Æther Vial
Creatures (30)
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Vryn Wingmare
4 Path to Exile
Lands (22)
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
11 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Disenchant
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
2 Sunlance
2 Stony Silence
1 Worship
I was agonizing about Skite vs. Spirit in the maindeck, but eventually opted for the latter. Thoughts?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Welcome to the cool kids club! Check out the first page of the primer and you will see a list of youtube videos. Also @deathandcatmix streams weekly and will post here most the times before he goes on.
He is also able to protect multiple guys on some occasions, such as a bolt + Helix.