Quote from Killer_Manfred »I did some testing yesterday against Co-Co-Combo (very proud of that name) and found out two things (I'm talking about the Collected Company deck with the Vizier of Remedies and Devoted Druid combo, in case you're wondering. My friend also runs Retreat to Coralhelm and Knight of the Reliquary. The deck seems very consistent and interactive):
1. the matchup is not great for us. That's quite a big problem, considering how popular the deck is. We lack mb interaction and post-sb it doesn't get much better for us, because they bring in multiple Rest in Peaces. They also run a number of birds, which makes Blood Moon almost obsolete, should you play the red version of the deck.
2. I tested two Big Game Hunters in the mb and realised how terrible those are when they don't have a target on your opponent's board. It's not a may-ability, so recurring Vengevines off of it can be a problem... I put them in the sb, removed 3 Amalgams and added a Lightning Axe.
I also cut a Tasigur because I drew a lot of them in the last weeks, ever since I upped their count from 3 to 4. Skitza's calcuclations reinforced the decision to go back to 3. A one- or two-of of Liliana of the Veil was another consideration, but I just bought 3 japanese Thoughtseizes and sold my copy of her a while ago, so I didn't feel like getting a new one
My current list now looks like this:
Skitzafreak's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures (29):4 Vengevine4 Gravecrawler4 Bloodghast4 Hollow One3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang4 Insolent Neonate4 Lotleth Troll4 Street WraithSpells (12):4 Faithless Looting3 Cathartic Reunion2 Collective Brutality3 Fatal PushLands (17):4 Bloodstained Mire2 Verdant Catacombs2 Blood Crypt2 Overgrown Tomb1 Stomping Ground3 Blackcleave Cliffs1 Copperline Gorge1 Swamp1 ForestSideboard:2 Big Game Hunter2 Feed the Clan2 Abrupt Decay2 Ancient Grudge2 Nihil Spellbomb3 Thoughtseize1 Darkblast1 Lightning Axe
I should also add that I was incredibly flooded 5 games in a row, even after shuffling the deck for 5 minutes straight (I drew over a dozen lands in all 5 games, never going below 35 cards in my library. In 2 games I had 13 lands in my top 20 cards, the other 7 being cantrips). I'm quite good at shuffling and use a lot of different styles, so I suppose I can't really do anything to prevent things like that. Luckily, we had enough time to play 8 games in total, so 3 of those I would call useful for testing. Nevertheless, I won none of them. I had very mediocre to bad hands in 2 games and got comboed out on t3 in the other one. All in all, the matchup feels terrible, but I'll have to do more testing to confirm that. Let me know what you think, I'd love to get some helpful insight and tips.
Quote from Topper »
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Quote from horrain »If your going UR, is Cloudfin Raptor worth a look? If you have one in play, then go off with 2-3 Hollow One/Vengevine you'll have a fairly big evasive beater.
Quote from ccc1522 »It should definitely be tested
Quote from horrain »I've been testing it in place of the Goblin Guide, it started as an availability substitution, but the evasion has helped, it can quickly grow to a 4/5, Evolve looks at either attack/defense, I'm almost positive its incorrect, but I've won games off its back.
I've been testing with your UR suggestion, I like running 4x Looting, Reunion and Charm, but I've noticed two kind of real issues with this direction. Mana, having to cast a two drop looting spell, then 1-2 1 drops to trigger the Vines is difficult, and a lack of Green mana means you can't hard cast Vines.
I'm going to test a Temur manabase, see if that fixes the green issue, I can see Traverse the Ulvenwald helping with the mana issues with all the 2 drop loot spells.
Quote from horrain »Aha, your right. Sorry for wasting your gold-fishing time.
It sounds likely that I'm doing some fairly impressive misplays, although I keep running into UW Control, so have occasionally had to hard-cast a Vengevine and a 1 drop to trigger more Vines.
I think I will play some more games with the 'stock' list, and your UR version, see if I can improve my play.
Quote from Killer_Manfred »Quote from Skitzafreak »That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.
Agreed, the deck is very unintuitive to play. That's why I like it so much. I can also attest to you forgetting things (still love you, though)
I reaaally like the idea of Traverse in this deck. Have you considered running more instants for it? That would go well with the higher number of mb interaction me and a few others have been advocating for. If you keep your list r/g to test Traverse, I'd suggest cutting Swiftspears for it, going down to 3 Reunions, and including 2 or 3 Pushes.
Ooooooooh, and I just noticed how great Traverse is with Shadow. It gets us Hollow Ones if we can cast them and Shadows if we're low enough on life. I think I'll do some testing myself! Combining Vines with a toolbox approach seems (in a low and content LSV voice) deeeece.
What do you think about something like this:
Skitzafreak's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures (30):4 Vengevine4 Bloodghast4 Hollow One3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang3 Death's Shadow4 Lotleth Troll4 Insolent Neonate4 Street WraithSpells (13):4 Faithless Looting3 Cathartic Reunion4 Fatal Push2 Traverse the UlvenwaldLands (17):4 Bloodstained Mire2 Verdant Catacombs2 Blood Crypt2 Overgrown Tomb1 Stomping Ground3 Blackcleave Cliffs1 Copperline Gorge1 Swamp1 ForestSideboard:2 Big Game Hunter2 Collective Brutality2 Feed the Clan2 Abrupt Decay2 Ancient Grudge2 Nihil Spellbomb3 Thoughtseize
I moved the Brutalities to the sb, increased the number of Pushes (to have more instants), cut Gravecrawler and put in 3 Shadows and 2 Traverses.
I'm slightly worried about having Traverse and Tasigur in the same deck with so few cards to delve away, though.
Quote from Skitzafreak »That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.
Quote from Killer_Manfred »Quote from Skitzafreak »What are everyone's thoughts on attempting to throw Memnites into the list. Alongside Hollow One they give you some additional 0 cost creatures to cast to recur Vengevine. I think they might be the next thing I test out.
I've been waiting for someone to bring that up. I find them terrible, since they're virtually cards you discard to make 4/3s. I don't know if they'll be ok with the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo, but at that point, we'd be playing them because they're creatures. They're bad in the deck for the same reason Simian Spirit Guides are bad: too low-impact, terrible topdecks, card disadvantage.
Quote from Skitzafreak »What are everyone's thoughts on attempting to throw Memnites into the list. Alongside Hollow One they give you some additional 0 cost creatures to cast to recur Vengevine. I think they might be the next thing I test out.
Quote from jackad7 »Glitterfang hasn't been tested but I know that awhile back we discussed Lightning berserker, it seemed really lackluster but that was in a dredge based deck. It might be more useful in this newer version.