one thing about the card selection was what was said about wayfinder. wayfinder is quite easily the best card in the deck, no contest. you absoloutely need to hit land drops early, and this one fills your graveyard AND leaves behind a guy to block snapcastets or another 1 butt guy. it also aids vengevine triggers, which is great.
also, life from the loam should always be a one of in jund lists. it makes fetchlands better and really helps bloodghast trigger more. if you don't need more cards from your library, gettings tons of lands off of loam is ideal to keep your bloodghast engine going.
Wayfinder is good, but Gravecrawler is by far the best creature in the deck outside of Vengevine. Casting from the graveyard helps us regurgitate Vengevines. I've played Jundvine for over three years now, and not once would I say is Life from the Loam a necessity. It's a great utility card to assist us in getting to five mana if you play Grave-Troll, but otherwise, it takes up an important spot for a removal spell like Abrupt Decay or Lightning Axe.
one thing about the card selection was what was said about wayfinder. wayfinder is quite easily the best card in the deck, no contest. you absoloutely need to hit land drops early, and this one fills your graveyard AND leaves behind a guy to block snapcastets or another 1 butt guy. it also aids vengevine triggers, which is great.
also, life from the loam should always be a one of in jund lists. it makes fetchlands better and really helps bloodghast trigger more. if you don't need more cards from your library, gettings tons of lands off of loam is ideal to keep your bloodghast engine going.
Wayfinder is good, but Gravecrawler is by far the best creature in the deck outside of Vengevine. Casting from the graveyard helps us regurgitate Vengevines. I've played Jundvine for over three years now, and not once would I say is Life from the Loam a necessity. It's a great utility card to assist us in getting to five mana if you play Grave-Troll, but otherwise, it takes up an important spot for a removal spell like Abrupt Decay or Lightning Axe.
on mobile so i can't post my decklist, sorry.
wayfinder is absurd. gravecrawler is insane and is always mandatory, but sometimes the can't block cause is very relevant and same with the zombie clause. wayfinder not only triggers venvine, but can actually let you go off turn 3 if you've milled enough.
loam makes fetches and bloodghasts better, and it also mills cards. i've never seen a reason not to play it, but it's your discretion.
I'm not going to argue that Gravecrawler or Vengevine aren't the best creatures in the deck, because without them there is no deck but before I play any Grisly Salvage (or Tracker's Instincts in BUG) I'd run the full four copies of Satyr Wayfinder.
I don't really think Bloodghast is where I want to be in the Jund version, so I'm not quite as big on Life from the Loam.
a VERY important thing to note about this deck is how greedy we are. the 4c variants are overgreedy, while the jund variants are less of it and because of that it is much more consistent. i tried playing the crab version and it was just bad. it was overly greedy and that cost me more games then i could count. the jund version is more consistent but has the same volatile nature.
one thing about the card selection was what was said about wayfinder. wayfinder is quite easily the best card in the deck, no contest. you absoloutely need to hit land drops early, and this one fills your graveyard AND leaves behind a guy to block snapcastets or another 1 butt guy. it also aids vengevine triggers, which is great.
also, life from the loam should always be a one of in jund lists. it makes fetchlands better and really helps bloodghast trigger more. if you don't need more cards from your library, gettings tons of lands off of loam is ideal to keep your bloodghast engine going.
Here's the thing with concerns to card selection and how "greedy" a decklist is.
Black and Green as must have colours for this deck due to the necessity to run 4 of Vengevine, Gravecrawler, and Lotleth Troll, all cards which kind of make this deck a thing. Now the question is if you go to other colours, what are the benefits?
The only benefits I see to red are Faithless Looting in the main, and Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. Hell, best part about Grudge is you don't even need to commit too much to red to use it as you can still just flash it back for G. Now I have seen some people running Slaughter Games, Lightning Axe, Flamewake Phoenix, and hell even Lightning Bolt. All these cards are good, but they aren't the best things you can be doing with your time and mana. Flamewake Phoenix is another great recursive threat, and hell I know I wouldn't run Jundvine without it, but it is another creature you can never block with, which is a huge issue this deck has. Slaughter Games is too slow and isn't what you want to be doing with this deck, which is spend time throwing out threats and exhausting your opponent's resources. If you have Slaughter Games for something like Tron or Bloom, just running Ghost Quarter and Life from the Loam in the sideboard will do more for you. Lightning Axe while being a discard outlet is honestly just worse than Murderous Cut.
Now what does blue offer? Hedron Crab, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Magus of the Bazaar, Skaab Ruinator, Stubborn Denial. Of all these cards, Hedron Crab is blue's Faithless Looting. It is the card that you include this colour for. All of the other cards I've listed, like the other red cards are negotiable inclusions, however in a lot of ways they add more to the deck then the cards offered in red. Jace, and Magus all help contribute to the decks' strategy by letting you dig deep and pitch all the things you want in your graveyard. Ruinator lets you be able to go off while having no creatures in play, which makes you able to just win through Wrath effects. And Stubborn Denial isn't that bad as sideboard against control or combo decks.
What is it about Dredgevine that you think makes the deck greedy? Is it the mana base? Is it how the deck itself works?
If it's the manabase, then yes I can see how you think the 4-Colour decks make the deck even greedier. But I want to know why you think the versions with Hedron Crab are just bad, and why you think they are overly greedy. A bit of an explanation is required sir. Especially because I have done better with the deck since using Crab than I have in just using Jund versions.
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My thoughts on Wayfinder are that it just isn't good mid/late game. It's a great t2/3 drop to keep your lands flowing while filling your graveyard but if your struggling on cards it is really lackluster late game. Grisly salvage allows you to eotyour opponent to allow you to dig for gas in your graveyard or for cards into your hand. It's really powerful with an angler. Say rot salvage grab an angler then dredge your upkeep. You can easily cast angler for 1 and then you can cast a grave crawler with the second one. It has just so much more possibility than the Wayfinder. I have played both satyr Wayfinder and I used to really not like salvage but I have switched. I originally played the full 4 Wayfinders and I've switched which really came about from angler. Personally I want you to just goldfish salvage over wayfinder. If youre running 3 salvages I would say that you could start running Wayfinder for more blockers if you need it but just from experience salvage is just a world better.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
a VERY important thing to note about this deck is how greedy we are. the 4c variants are overgreedy, while the jund variants are less of it and because of that it is much more consistent. i tried playing the crab version and it was just bad. it was overly greedy and that cost me more games then i could count. the jund version is more consistent but has the same volatile nature.
one thing about the card selection was what was said about wayfinder. wayfinder is quite easily the best card in the deck, no contest. you absoloutely need to hit land drops early, and this one fills your graveyard AND leaves behind a guy to block snapcastets or another 1 butt guy. it also aids vengevine triggers, which is great.
also, life from the loam should always be a one of in jund lists. it makes fetchlands better and really helps bloodghast trigger more. if you don't need more cards from your library, gettings tons of lands off of loam is ideal to keep your bloodghast engine going.
Here's the thing with concerns to card selection and how "greedy" a decklist is.
Black and Green as must have colours for this deck due to the necessity to run 4 of Vengevine, Gravecrawler, and Lotleth Troll, all cards which kind of make this deck a thing. Now the question is if you go to other colours, what are the benefits?
The only benefits I see to red are Faithless Looting in the main, and Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. Hell, best part about Grudge is you don't even need to commit too much to red to use it as you can still just flash it back for G. Now I have seen some people running Slaughter Games, Lightning Axe, Flamewake Phoenix, and hell even Lightning Bolt. All these cards are good, but they aren't the best things you can be doing with your time and mana. Flamewake Phoenix is another great recursive threat, and hell I know I wouldn't run Jundvine without it, but it is another creature you can never block with, which is a huge issue this deck has. Slaughter Games is too slow and isn't what you want to be doing with this deck, which is spend time throwing out threats and exhausting your opponent's resources. If you have Slaughter Games for something like Tron or Bloom, just running Ghost Quarter and Life from the Loam in the sideboard will do more for you. Lightning Axe while being a discard outlet is honestly just worse than Murderous Cut.
Now what does blue offer? Hedron Crab, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Magus of the Bazaar, Skaab Ruinator, Stubborn Denial. Of all these cards, Hedron Crab is blue's Faithless Looting. It is the card that you include this colour for. All of the other cards I've listed, like the other red cards are negotiable inclusions, however in a lot of ways they add more to the deck then the cards offered in red. Jace, and Magus all help contribute to the decks' strategy by letting you dig deep and pitch all the things you want in your graveyard. Ruinator lets you be able to go off while having no creatures in play, which makes you able to just win through Wrath effects. And Stubborn Denial isn't that bad as sideboard against control or combo decks.
What is it about Dredgevine that you think makes the deck greedy? Is it the mana base? Is it how the deck itself works?
If it's the manabase, then yes I can see how you think the 4-Colour decks make the deck even greedier. But I want to know why you think the versions with Hedron Crab are just bad, and why you think they are overly greedy. A bit of an explanation is required sir. Especially because I have done better with the deck since using Crab than I have in just using Jund versions.
dredgevine lists should almost always be playing 20 lands. how consistently can you trigger landfall? unfortunately, in my testing with the card, never enough. sure, crab blocks fine, but you will almost never want to block with it.
magus of the bazaar is bad because for it to give you value you have to untap with it. the best deck in the format is grixis control. you will never get to untap with a magus on board. same with literal actual baby jace in this deck.
stubborn denial is pretty much useless because game one there rarely is anything worth countering that they won't pay for.
skaab ruinator has a clunky manacost.
jund is infinitely better. first, the color is a splash, prinarily for sideboard cards, looting, and lightning axe. faithless lootings lets you find needed lands, lets you ditch dredgers, bloodghasts and gravecrawlers a turn before hedron crab can, and it can be cast again, usually dredging grave trolls. it's core to the deck and there's not alot of reason not to be playing red. most people in this thread are on jund and it's probably safe to say people agree with me on this stance.
saying that lightning axe is worse then murderous cut makes absoloutely zero sense. they both do completely different things and they both fulfill different roles.
cut is hard removal. enough said
lightning axe lets you pitch a card AND kill something most of the time. the best creatures in modern are young pyro, goyf and tasigur. axe can't always kill goyf but it certainly can if cast early enough.
the list i'm playing is a consistence greed list that is playing 4 salvage and 3 wayfinder. salvage can hit creatures and mills more, but is slightly harder to cast (very rarely relevant) and doesn't leave a dude behind. wayfinder makes a guy, but can only find lands and mills 1 less.
another nice thing about wayfinder late game is that it triggers vengevine if you need that second trigger. so, it's solid in the late game too.
I'm not going to argue that Gravecrawler or Vengevine aren't the best creatures in the deck, because without them there is no deck but before I play any Grisly Salvage (or Tracker's Instincts in BUG) I'd run the full four copies of Satyr Wayfinder.
I don't really think Bloodghast is where I want to be in the Jund version, so I'm not quite as big on Life from the Loam.
it's rare you actually cast the ghast. it's a beater that gets pitched to troll and can sometimes just steal games because of the haste clause.
dredgevine lists should almost always be playing 20 lands. how consistently can you trigger landfall? unfortunately, in my testing with the card, never enough. sure, crab blocks fine, but you will almost never want to block with it.
I agree, most Dredgevine lists should be running close to 20 lands. My list runs 21 because I like having a singleton Ghost Quarter in the main to help against Tron and Bloom.
With that being said, just how many landfall triggers can you hit? Well of those 20 lands you are running, at least 8-10 of them should be fetch lands to help you with your consistency. So at a bare minimum, you can play a Hedron Crab on turn 2, play a fetch land, and crack it. That gives you two landfall triggers, which will mill over 6 cards, which is the same as if you were to Dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll. If the turn after you have another fetch land (which isn't unreasonable) you can mill another six. So in two turns you can get 4 Landfall triggers and mill over 12 cards in your deck. This is an entire fifth of your entire deck, which is HUGE. It actually being able to block is also super relevant. Not to mention being a 1 mana creature does help you get your Vengevines back later in the game.
magus of the bazaar is bad because for it to give you value you have to untap with it. the best deck in the format is grixis control. you will never get to untap with a magus on board. same with literal actual baby jace in this deck.
Honestly, this is an incredibly ridiculous argument. That is like saying Faithless Looting is a terrible card because your opponent can just counter it. Yes, there will be some times where your opponents are able to deal with your Magus of the Bazaar of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy before you can untap with it to use it. But the games where they can't immediately kill the creature, they let you get out of control and quickly. The "dies to Doom Blade" argument, which is basically what you're presenting here, isn't all that constructive to the discussion.
stubborn denial is pretty much useless because game one there rarely is anything worth countering that they won't pay for.
I agree, Stubborn Denial is not mainboard material. However it is amazing in the sideboard. Remember that Vengevine has 4 power so it turns your Denial into a 1 mana Negate. I know it is a card I have wanted multiple times when I just get obliterated to an Anger of the Gods. Not to mention it is still good early game if your opponent is just trying to slam a Rest in Peace on turn 2 and you have the mana up to cast the Denial. It has plenty of uses in the deck, though it is probably best as sideboard material.
I agree, it's casting cost is a little clunky. Personally I prefer having a singleton Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in the deck, though the life loss from it is quite a pain against Burn. Also being a 5/6 flier is such huge game against a LOT of decks.
jund is infinitely better. first, the color is a splash, prinarily for sideboard cards, looting, and lightning axe. faithless lootings lets you find needed lands, lets you ditch dredgers, bloodghasts and gravecrawlers a turn before hedron crab can, and it can be cast again, usually dredging grave trolls. it's core to the deck and there's not alot of reason not to be playing red. most people in this thread are on jund and it's probably safe to say people agree with me on this stance.
First off, most of the people in this thread who were also in the old thread have more or less agreed that Sultaivine and Jundvine are both viable ways to play the deck. The main difference is that you need to play each version of the deck completely differently from the other. Perhaps your play style fits how Judnvine works better than Sultaivine, and that's fine.
Now I completely agree with you that one of the main reasons Jundvine is so good is because of Faithless Looting. Hell it is because of how good Looting is that I've been running 4-Colours the past few months.
The problem with red in Dredgevine, is that outside of Looting, and Ancient Grudge for the sideboard, every card you could think about slotting into the deck is extremely underwhelming. Blue on the other hand does help fill a lot of the holes the deck has.
Also Bloodghast is just terrible for this deck, but that's my opinion
Finally, I would be interested in seeing the list you yourself are running. So if you could post it for me when you have the chance, that would be great
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The problem with red in Dredgevine, is that outside of Looting, and Ancient Grudge for the sideboard, every card you could think about slotting into the deck is extremely underwhelming. Blue on the other hand does help fill a lot of the holes the deck has.
I agree that there isn't a lot to sideboard in with red (Ancient Grudge is just incredibly good though), but when you mention blue fills holes I'm not sure what you're referring to, what exactly do you bring in with BUGvine?.
I agree that there isn't a lot to sideboard in with red (Ancient Grudge is just incredibly good though), but when you mention blue fills holes I'm not sure what you're referring to, what exactly do you bring in with BUGvine?.
I've found that the deck can run out of steam quickly, so having more ways to draw cards can help. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Magus of the Bazaar help fill that hole.
Sometimes you want to have a ridiculously explosive opening but need cheap easy ways to mill a lot of cards early on. Hedron Crab helps here.
These are all scenarios I have had to deal with on multiple occasions while playing Jundvine, and have been basically non-existant as issues for me with BUGVine.
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#PayThePros
Hello all! New poster to this thread, and new to the deck, so I have a few questions. I love to play grindy decks, and I mean love (Currently a BW Tokens player, so when I say grindy, I mean grindy). However, I am looking for something new, and I stumbled across this deck while examining the forums. After doing some reading, I think I found the pinnacle of grindiness! However, I have never played a graveyard-based deck before, and I'm nervous about constructing a deck without experience. Thus, I am coming to the experts for help. I'm wondering which sample list is recommended, or if there is another list somewhere that I can use as a starting point. My meta is very diverse, but the biggest decks I see are Twin variants and other popular combo decks. Merfolk is also on the rise, and quickly becoming a pest. I'm not trying to be lazy and not work out a list. I just don't want to build something out of inexperience. Any help is greatly appreciated!
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First of all welcome Always nice to have new sacrifices to...err....I mean nice to see new people interested in the deck. Yes <_< That's what I meant >_>
I think the biggest problem with the deck at the moment, is that as a collective we can't decide on what is the best base build. Some of use like BRG, others prefer UBG. I myself have been enjoying running UBRG.
But the base of what you'll find in every build looks like this:
You'll also want 20ish land. I myself run 21 because I use Ghost Quarter as mainboard help versus Tron and Amulet Bloom.
From the sounds of things, with you mentioning how you prefer grindy decks. As such [mana]UBG[/card] might be more to your liking as I've found it much better at playing the attrition game than other variants of the deck. My biggest pointer to give you though is don't jump into this deck blind. It unfortunately isn't a super cheap deck, and if you're gonna spend the money for it, make sure you know how it works, and if it's something you'd really enjoy or not.
Hope this helps
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#PayThePros
First of all welcome Always nice to have new sacrifices to...err....I mean nice to see new people interested in the deck. Yes <_< That's what I meant >_>
I think the biggest problem with the deck at the moment, is that as a collective we can't decide on what is the best base build. Some of use like BRG, others prefer UBG. I myself have been enjoying running UBRG.
But the base of what you'll find in every build looks like this:
You'll also want 20ish land. I myself run 21 because I use Ghost Quarter as mainboard help versus Tron and Amulet Bloom.
From the sounds of things, with you mentioning how you prefer grindy decks. As such [mana]UBG[/card] might be more to your liking as I've found it much better at playing the attrition game than other variants of the deck. My biggest pointer to give you though is don't jump into this deck blind. It unfortunately isn't a super cheap deck, and if you're gonna spend the money for it, make sure you know how it works, and if it's something you'd really enjoy or not.
Hope this helps
Sacrifices? Pfft, I'm a token player! More chump blockers! MOAR!!!!!
In all seriousness though, I can make something work. Honestly, going straight BG could be do able in a meta such as mine, but I don't see Blood Moon very often so I can't really see myself being punished for going three colors. I'll find some way to work around it. I'm not made of cash (most teens aren't) so I'll have to find something. I don't mind acquiring staples slowly. Thanks for the help! I'll post a lits before I proxy it up and see what you guys think!
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Ok, I've run into another problem and need some assistance. Due to the holiday season (try having a family of seven, and then tell me the holidays are expensive!), and given that I'm a teen wothout access to a job, my funds have been devoted to giving my family a Christmas. I'm wondering if straight GB is possible while I slowly upgrade the deck into BUGVine. BW Tokens has lost some of it's perks for me because I have been identified as "the BW Tokens guy" at my LGS, which is not good thing when you're playing a fair deck. Does anybody have any advice or perhaps a starting point for me? I'm not a very creative person, a skill I am extremely jealous of the people who have it.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Ok, I've run into another problem and need some assistance. Due to the holiday season (try having a family of seven, and then tell me the holidays are expensive!), and given that I'm a teen wothout access to a job, my funds have been devoted to giving my family a Christmas. I'm wondering if straight GB is possible while I slowly upgrade the deck into BUGVine. BW Tokens has lost some of it's perks for me because I have been identified as "the BW Tokens guy" at my LGS, which is not good thing when you're playing a fair deck. Does anybody have any advice or perhaps a starting point for me? I'm not a very creative person, a skill I am extremely jealous of the people who have it.
Playing straight GB lacks in the acceleration of looting/crab. I started out the same way with a limited budget and low skill but I just slowly traded for the pieces I didn't have using rewards from tournaments. What is the most price restrictive part for you at the time being, lands I'm assuming? If you could post a list of what you have for lands and what you're planning on buying in the core of the deck.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Ok, I've run into another problem and need some assistance. Due to the holiday season (try having a family of seven, and then tell me the holidays are expensive!), and given that I'm a teen wothout access to a job, my funds have been devoted to giving my family a Christmas. I'm wondering if straight GB is possible while I slowly upgrade the deck into BUGVine. BW Tokens has lost some of it's perks for me because I have been identified as "the BW Tokens guy" at my LGS, which is not good thing when you're playing a fair deck. Does anybody have any advice or perhaps a starting point for me? I'm not a very creative person, a skill I am extremely jealous of the people who have it.
Playing straight GB lacks in the acceleration of looting/crab. I started out the same way with a limited budget and low skill but I just slowly traded for the pieces I didn't have using rewards from tournaments. What is the most price restrictive part for you at the time being, lands I'm assuming? If you could post a list of what you have for lands and what you're planning on buying in the core of the deck.
I own nothing for this deck. And I mean nothing, except maybe a Lotleth Troll. Yes, the manabase is pretty restrictive for me. I would probably buy the fetches first because they are constantly getting more and more expensive.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Ok, I've run into another problem and need some assistance. Due to the holiday season (try having a family of seven, and then tell me the holidays are expensive!), and given that I'm a teen wothout access to a job, my funds have been devoted to giving my family a Christmas. I'm wondering if straight GB is possible while I slowly upgrade the deck into BUGVine. BW Tokens has lost some of it's perks for me because I have been identified as "the BW Tokens guy" at my LGS, which is not good thing when you're playing a fair deck. Does anybody have any advice or perhaps a starting point for me? I'm not a very creative person, a skill I am extremely jealous of the people who have it.
Playing straight GB lacks in the acceleration of looting/crab. I started out the same way with a limited budget and low skill but I just slowly traded for the pieces I didn't have using rewards from tournaments. What is the most price restrictive part for you at the time being, lands I'm assuming? If you could post a list of what you have for lands and what you're planning on buying in the core of the deck.
I own nothing for this deck. And I mean nothing, except maybe a Lotleth Troll. Yes, the manabase is pretty restrictive for me. I would probably buy the fetches first because they are constantly getting more and more expensive.
Fetches
Abrubt decay
Vengevine
Gravecrawler
Shocks
Gravetroll of you want him
That's the order I would do it in. I didn't pay more than $10 for anything I'm using because I was ahead of the curve on it and bought a lot of the stuff cheap but if you look closely and are patient you can find this stuff on ebay for a good price. Tips are to set a price you're going to pay per card shipping included and then never settle for less. Looks for sales ending during the workday or at night when people won't be bidding and you can find go prices there. Look for lp+ as they usually aren't that much different than nm and you can play with them and upgrade once you get more cash flow. For dredging I would use golgari thug or stink weed imp as you can save 10 bucks on Gravetroll. Skip blood ghastly the 50 bucks aren't wOrth their value. Gurmag angler and grisly salvage work well together so I would order them early too. Really order the small stuff. Anything under five and then slowly buy the rest when you find it at a good price. That's how you can maximize your finances. If you have trade stuff use the trading post on here and deckbox. It really waters down exspenses. Sorry for the non-related dredge vine stuff but I've been pretty low budget and I just want to help as much as I can.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Ok, I've run into another problem and need some assistance. Due to the holiday season (try having a family of seven, and then tell me the holidays are expensive!), and given that I'm a teen wothout access to a job, my funds have been devoted to giving my family a Christmas. I'm wondering if straight GB is possible while I slowly upgrade the deck into BUGVine. BW Tokens has lost some of it's perks for me because I have been identified as "the BW Tokens guy" at my LGS, which is not good thing when you're playing a fair deck. Does anybody have any advice or perhaps a starting point for me? I'm not a very creative person, a skill I am extremely jealous of the people who have it.
Playing straight GB lacks in the acceleration of looting/crab. I started out the same way with a limited budget and low skill but I just slowly traded for the pieces I didn't have using rewards from tournaments. What is the most price restrictive part for you at the time being, lands I'm assuming? If you could post a list of what you have for lands and what you're planning on buying in the core of the deck.
I own nothing for this deck. And I mean nothing, except maybe a Lotleth Troll. Yes, the manabase is pretty restrictive for me. I would probably buy the fetches first because they are constantly getting more and more expensive.
Fetches
Abrubt decay
Vengevine
Gravecrawler
Shocks
Gravetroll of you want him
That's the order I would do it in. I didn't pay more than $10 for anything I'm using because I was ahead of the curve on it and bought a lot of the stuff cheap but if you look closely and are patient you can find this stuff on ebay for a good price. Tips are to set a price you're going to pay per card shipping included and then never settle for less. Looks for sales ending during the workday or at night when people won't be bidding and you can find go prices there. Look for lp+ as they usually aren't that much different than nm and you can play with them and upgrade once you get more cash flow. For dredging I would use golgari thug or stink weed imp as you can save 10 bucks on Gravetroll. Skip blood ghastly the 50 bucks aren't wOrth their value. Gurmag angler and grisly salvage work well together so I would order them early too. Really order the small stuff. Anything under five and then slowly buy the rest when you find it at a good price. That's how you can maximize your finances. If you have trade stuff use the trading post on here and deckbox. It really waters down exspenses. Sorry for the non-related dredge vine stuff but I've been pretty low budget and I just want to help as much as I can.
Thanks a bunch! I'll see if I can cobble a list together but it may be several days. I've got midterm exams (I'm sure somebody here remembers that nightmare...) and with AP classes and the like, this is going to take my time away from Magic.
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(BUG version) I finally changed the Satyr, playing instead the 4th Tracker's Instincts. Satyr seemed a lot more random, while the 4th tracker seems more consistent. The rest of the list has no changes.
How do you deal against tron with the BUG version?
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BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
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YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
on mobile so i can't post my decklist, sorry.
wayfinder is absurd. gravecrawler is insane and is always mandatory, but sometimes the can't block cause is very relevant and same with the zombie clause. wayfinder not only triggers venvine, but can actually let you go off turn 3 if you've milled enough.
loam makes fetches and bloodghasts better, and it also mills cards. i've never seen a reason not to play it, but it's your discretion.
I don't really think Bloodghast is where I want to be in the Jund version, so I'm not quite as big on Life from the Loam.
Here's the thing with concerns to card selection and how "greedy" a decklist is.
Black and Green as must have colours for this deck due to the necessity to run 4 of Vengevine, Gravecrawler, and Lotleth Troll, all cards which kind of make this deck a thing. Now the question is if you go to other colours, what are the benefits?
The only benefits I see to red are Faithless Looting in the main, and Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. Hell, best part about Grudge is you don't even need to commit too much to red to use it as you can still just flash it back for G. Now I have seen some people running Slaughter Games, Lightning Axe, Flamewake Phoenix, and hell even Lightning Bolt. All these cards are good, but they aren't the best things you can be doing with your time and mana. Flamewake Phoenix is another great recursive threat, and hell I know I wouldn't run Jundvine without it, but it is another creature you can never block with, which is a huge issue this deck has. Slaughter Games is too slow and isn't what you want to be doing with this deck, which is spend time throwing out threats and exhausting your opponent's resources. If you have Slaughter Games for something like Tron or Bloom, just running Ghost Quarter and Life from the Loam in the sideboard will do more for you. Lightning Axe while being a discard outlet is honestly just worse than Murderous Cut.
Now what does blue offer? Hedron Crab, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Magus of the Bazaar, Skaab Ruinator, Stubborn Denial. Of all these cards, Hedron Crab is blue's Faithless Looting. It is the card that you include this colour for. All of the other cards I've listed, like the other red cards are negotiable inclusions, however in a lot of ways they add more to the deck then the cards offered in red. Jace, and Magus all help contribute to the decks' strategy by letting you dig deep and pitch all the things you want in your graveyard. Ruinator lets you be able to go off while having no creatures in play, which makes you able to just win through Wrath effects. And Stubborn Denial isn't that bad as sideboard against control or combo decks.
What is it about Dredgevine that you think makes the deck greedy? Is it the mana base? Is it how the deck itself works?
If it's the manabase, then yes I can see how you think the 4-Colour decks make the deck even greedier. But I want to know why you think the versions with Hedron Crab are just bad, and why you think they are overly greedy. A bit of an explanation is required sir. Especially because I have done better with the deck since using Crab than I have in just using Jund versions.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
dredgevine lists should almost always be playing 20 lands. how consistently can you trigger landfall? unfortunately, in my testing with the card, never enough. sure, crab blocks fine, but you will almost never want to block with it.
magus of the bazaar is bad because for it to give you value you have to untap with it. the best deck in the format is grixis control. you will never get to untap with a magus on board. same with literal actual baby jace in this deck.
stubborn denial is pretty much useless because game one there rarely is anything worth countering that they won't pay for.
skaab ruinator has a clunky manacost.
jund is infinitely better. first, the color is a splash, prinarily for sideboard cards, looting, and lightning axe. faithless lootings lets you find needed lands, lets you ditch dredgers, bloodghasts and gravecrawlers a turn before hedron crab can, and it can be cast again, usually dredging grave trolls. it's core to the deck and there's not alot of reason not to be playing red. most people in this thread are on jund and it's probably safe to say people agree with me on this stance.
saying that lightning axe is worse then murderous cut makes absoloutely zero sense. they both do completely different things and they both fulfill different roles.
cut is hard removal. enough said
lightning axe lets you pitch a card AND kill something most of the time. the best creatures in modern are young pyro, goyf and tasigur. axe can't always kill goyf but it certainly can if cast early enough.
another nice thing about wayfinder late game is that it triggers vengevine if you need that second trigger. so, it's solid in the late game too.
i liked your insight, though. great points.
it's rare you actually cast the ghast. it's a beater that gets pitched to troll and can sometimes just steal games because of the haste clause.
I agree, most Dredgevine lists should be running close to 20 lands. My list runs 21 because I like having a singleton Ghost Quarter in the main to help against Tron and Bloom.
With that being said, just how many landfall triggers can you hit? Well of those 20 lands you are running, at least 8-10 of them should be fetch lands to help you with your consistency. So at a bare minimum, you can play a Hedron Crab on turn 2, play a fetch land, and crack it. That gives you two landfall triggers, which will mill over 6 cards, which is the same as if you were to Dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll. If the turn after you have another fetch land (which isn't unreasonable) you can mill another six. So in two turns you can get 4 Landfall triggers and mill over 12 cards in your deck. This is an entire fifth of your entire deck, which is HUGE. It actually being able to block is also super relevant. Not to mention being a 1 mana creature does help you get your Vengevines back later in the game.
Honestly, this is an incredibly ridiculous argument. That is like saying Faithless Looting is a terrible card because your opponent can just counter it. Yes, there will be some times where your opponents are able to deal with your Magus of the Bazaar of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy before you can untap with it to use it. But the games where they can't immediately kill the creature, they let you get out of control and quickly. The "dies to Doom Blade" argument, which is basically what you're presenting here, isn't all that constructive to the discussion.
I agree, Stubborn Denial is not mainboard material. However it is amazing in the sideboard. Remember that Vengevine has 4 power so it turns your Denial into a 1 mana Negate. I know it is a card I have wanted multiple times when I just get obliterated to an Anger of the Gods. Not to mention it is still good early game if your opponent is just trying to slam a Rest in Peace on turn 2 and you have the mana up to cast the Denial. It has plenty of uses in the deck, though it is probably best as sideboard material.
I agree, it's casting cost is a little clunky. Personally I prefer having a singleton Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in the deck, though the life loss from it is quite a pain against Burn. Also being a 5/6 flier is such huge game against a LOT of decks.
First off, most of the people in this thread who were also in the old thread have more or less agreed that Sultaivine and Jundvine are both viable ways to play the deck. The main difference is that you need to play each version of the deck completely differently from the other. Perhaps your play style fits how Judnvine works better than Sultaivine, and that's fine.
Now I completely agree with you that one of the main reasons Jundvine is so good is because of Faithless Looting. Hell it is because of how good Looting is that I've been running 4-Colours the past few months.
The problem with red in Dredgevine, is that outside of Looting, and Ancient Grudge for the sideboard, every card you could think about slotting into the deck is extremely underwhelming. Blue on the other hand does help fill a lot of the holes the deck has.
Also Bloodghast is just terrible for this deck, but that's my opinion
Finally, I would be interested in seeing the list you yourself are running. So if you could post it for me when you have the chance, that would be great
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I agree that there isn't a lot to sideboard in with red (Ancient Grudge is just incredibly good though), but when you mention blue fills holes I'm not sure what you're referring to, what exactly do you bring in with BUGvine?.
I've found that the deck can run out of steam quickly, so having more ways to draw cards can help. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Magus of the Bazaar help fill that hole.
Sometimes you want to have a ridiculously explosive opening but need cheap easy ways to mill a lot of cards early on. Hedron Crab helps here.
There are times where you're running Abrupt Decay or Murderous Cut but you mill over them and wish you had been able to make use of them in the game. Jace, Telepath Unbound to the rescue.
And finally, sometimes you just need a way to say F&$% OFF! to Anger of the Gods and you want something cheaper than Golgari Charm. Stubborn Denial says hello
These are all scenarios I have had to deal with on multiple occasions while playing Jundvine, and have been basically non-existant as issues for me with BUGVine.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think the biggest problem with the deck at the moment, is that as a collective we can't decide on what is the best base build. Some of use like BRG, others prefer UBG. I myself have been enjoying running UBRG.
But the base of what you'll find in every build looks like this:
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
You'll also want 20ish land. I myself run 21 because I use Ghost Quarter as mainboard help versus Tron and Amulet Bloom.
From the sounds of things, with you mentioning how you prefer grindy decks. As such [mana]UBG[/card] might be more to your liking as I've found it much better at playing the attrition game than other variants of the deck. My biggest pointer to give you though is don't jump into this deck blind. It unfortunately isn't a super cheap deck, and if you're gonna spend the money for it, make sure you know how it works, and if it's something you'd really enjoy or not.
Hope this helps
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
In all seriousness though, I can make something work. Honestly, going straight BG could be do able in a meta such as mine, but I don't see Blood Moon very often so I can't really see myself being punished for going three colors. I'll find some way to work around it. I'm not made of cash (most teens aren't) so I'll have to find something. I don't mind acquiring staples slowly. Thanks for the help! I'll post a lits before I proxy it up and see what you guys think!
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Fetches
Abrubt decay
Vengevine
Gravecrawler
Shocks
Gravetroll of you want him
That's the order I would do it in. I didn't pay more than $10 for anything I'm using because I was ahead of the curve on it and bought a lot of the stuff cheap but if you look closely and are patient you can find this stuff on ebay for a good price. Tips are to set a price you're going to pay per card shipping included and then never settle for less. Looks for sales ending during the workday or at night when people won't be bidding and you can find go prices there. Look for lp+ as they usually aren't that much different than nm and you can play with them and upgrade once you get more cash flow. For dredging I would use golgari thug or stink weed imp as you can save 10 bucks on Gravetroll. Skip blood ghastly the 50 bucks aren't wOrth their value. Gurmag angler and grisly salvage work well together so I would order them early too. Really order the small stuff. Anything under five and then slowly buy the rest when you find it at a good price. That's how you can maximize your finances. If you have trade stuff use the trading post on here and deckbox. It really waters down exspenses. Sorry for the non-related dredge vine stuff but I've been pretty low budget and I just want to help as much as I can.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
How do you deal against tron with the BUG version?