I did some testing yesterday against Co-Co-Combo (very proud of that name) and found out two things (I'm talking about the Collected Company deck with the Vizier of Remedies and Devoted Druid combo, in case you're wondering. My friend also runs Retreat to Coralhelm and Knight of the Reliquary. The deck seems very consistent and interactive):
1. the matchup is not great for us. That's quite a big problem, considering how popular the deck is. We lack mb interaction and post-sb it doesn't get much better for us, because they bring in multiple Rest in Peaces. They also run a number of birds, which makes Blood Moon almost obsolete, should you play the red version of the deck.
2. I tested two Big Game Hunters in the mb and realised how terrible those are when they don't have a target on your opponent's board. It's not a may-ability, so recurring Vengevines off of it can be a problem... I put them in the sb, removed 3 Amalgams and added a Lightning Axe.
I also cut a Tasigur because I drew a lot of them in the last weeks, ever since I upped their count from 3 to 4. Skitza's calcuclations reinforced the decision to go back to 3. A one- or two-of of Liliana of the Veil was another consideration, but I just bought 3 japanese Thoughtseizes and sold my copy of her a while ago, so I didn't feel like getting a new one
I should also add that I was incredibly flooded 5 games in a row, even after shuffling the deck for 5 minutes straight (I drew over a dozen lands in all 5 games, never going below 35 cards in my library. In 2 games I had 13 lands in my top 20 cards, the other 7 being cantrips). I'm quite good at shuffling and use a lot of different styles, so I suppose I can't really do anything to prevent things like that. Luckily, we had enough time to play 8 games in total, so 3 of those I would call useful for testing. Nevertheless, I won none of them. I had very mediocre to bad hands in 2 games and got comboed out on t3 in the other one. All in all, the matchup feels terrible, but I'll have to do more testing to confirm that. Let me know what you think, I'd love to get some helpful insight and tips.
More likes Rest in Pieces am I right (oh god I'm hilarious).
I'm surprised the the CoCo deck gave you that much trouble since your list has both Fatal Push and Collective Brutality. I suppose to downside to those cards however is to use them you have to not advance your board, which kind of sucks.
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The deck needs removal and disruption I have come to this conclusion because the deck needs some sort of resiliance. This deck has really proven to be the epitome of glass cannon. If you dont dump your vines or cast any hollow ones the rest of the deck just struggles to get them out. The deck absolutely needs more resiliance perhaps some terminates, abrupt decays, thoughtseizes. I believe this deck would do best if treated like an abzan or jund aggro deck which runs alot of disruption and spells (thoughtseize, kolaghans command, abrupt decay) to protect the aggro strategy and to allow the gears to turn.
That is my opinion at least. I am currently just thinking of what to do with my varient and have considered going back to my original dredge vine/varolz decklist.
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After playing the deck quite a bit for the first time in months I agree that we need some kind of removal/disruption. I dont think it should be at the level of mid-range decks though. Im thinking back to about two years ago when i used to play three mainboard decays and a flex removal (lightning axe/murderous cut) just enough to let us push through our deck and just enough to temporarily disrupt combos allowing us to win. I have found so many mat ch es were just straight loss to easily disrupted combo's or a single card like spreading seas.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
If your going UR, is Cloudfin Raptor worth a look? If you have one in play, then go off with 2-3 Hollow One/Vengevine you'll have a fairly big evasive beater.
If your going UR, is Cloudfin Raptor worth a look? If you have one in play, then go off with 2-3 Hollow One/Vengevine you'll have a fairly big evasive beater.
The biggest a Cloudfin Raptor would ever get in this deck would be 3/4. And while I can see the value of it getting big with recurring Vines and such, what would you suggest I cut for it?
I would be willing to test it, though I don't think it is the best option available.
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Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
So a friend of mine made a suggestion for the RG List, Traverse the Ulvenwald. Obviously we need to see how quickly we can get Delirium (shouldn't be too hard honestly) but Traverse can be a way to get whatever we need in the situation we're in once that condition has been met. Worst case scenario it's a way for us to pull another land from our deck if we need the mana.
What does everyone else think?
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I've been testing it in place of the Goblin Guide, it started as an availability substitution, but the evasion has helped, it can quickly grow to a 4/5, Evolve looks at either attack/defense, I'm almost positive its incorrect, but I've won games off its back.
I've been testing with your UR suggestion, I like running 4x Looting, Reunion and Charm, but I've noticed two kind of real issues with this direction. Mana, having to cast a two drop looting spell, then 1-2 1 drops to trigger the Vines is difficult, and a lack of Green mana means you can't hard cast Vines.
I'm going to test a Temur manabase, see if that fixes the green issue, I can see Traverse the Ulvenwald helping with the mana issues with all the 2 drop loot spells.
I've been testing it in place of the Goblin Guide, it started as an availability substitution, but the evasion has helped, it can quickly grow to a 4/5, Evolve looks at either attack/defense, I'm almost positive its incorrect, but I've won games off its back.
I've been testing with your UR suggestion, I like running 4x Looting, Reunion and Charm, but I've noticed two kind of real issues with this direction. Mana, having to cast a two drop looting spell, then 1-2 1 drops to trigger the Vines is difficult, and a lack of Green mana means you can't hard cast Vines.
I'm going to test a Temur manabase, see if that fixes the green issue, I can see Traverse the Ulvenwald helping with the mana issues with all the 2 drop loot spells.
You are correct about Evolve. Cloudfin Raptor can actually get up to a 4/5, which definitely makes me more interested in it.
I can also understand why there would be an issue with that many 2 mana loot spells. I think a better number may be closer to 3 each for Cathartic Reunion and Izzet Charm. I think I'm going to get the cards to try out my Temur additions. You shouldn't have to ever hard-cast Vengevine so I personally consider that a non-issue. Even with the RG list I'm never intentionally getting more than 1 green source unless I want to be casting 2 Become Immense.
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#PayThePros
So initial goldfishing with a very basic list incorporating blue presents me with a problem with Cloudfin Raptor. Simply put, it has horrible synergy with Vengevine. Let me explain.
If Raptor is the first creature you cast in a turn, or is already in play, then recurring a bunch of Vengevines onto the board will most likely trigger it's Evolve multiple times, causing it to grow rather large. However, if instead it is the second creature you cast, every Vengevine in your graveyard will trigger and enter the battlefield before Raptor has resolved, meaning you want get any Evolve triggers. This means that Raptor is honestly quite restrictive with concerns to when you can cast it, which overall doesn't seem that great.
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Aha, your right. Sorry for wasting your gold-fishing time.
It sounds likely that I'm doing some fairly impressive misplays, although I keep running into UW Control, so have occasionally had to hard-cast a Vengevine and a 1 drop to trigger more Vines.
I think I will play some more games with the 'stock' list, and your UR version, see if I can improve my play.
Aha, your right. Sorry for wasting your gold-fishing time.
It sounds likely that I'm doing some fairly impressive misplays, although I keep running into UW Control, so have occasionally had to hard-cast a Vengevine and a 1 drop to trigger more Vines.
I think I will play some more games with the 'stock' list, and your UR version, see if I can improve my play.
Lol no problem man. At the very least it let me test some random things
And rather than making misplays, I'd say you maybe just aren't seeing certain lines you could be taking.
For example if my opening hand has: Faithless Looting, Insolent Neonate, Hollow One, and Vengevine some people would play the Looting on turn 1, so as to make efficient use of mana and so that they aren't doing nothing on turn 1. However, if you instead wait until Turn 2, cast the looting, and then cast Neonate, Neonate's discard effect will make Hollow One free to cast, which will trigger Vengevine.
That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.
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#PayThePros
That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.
Agreed, the deck is very unintuitive to play. That's why I like it so much. I can also attest to you forgetting things (still love you, though)
I reaaally like the idea of Traverse in this deck. Have you considered running more instants for it? That would go well with the higher number of mb interaction me and a few others have been advocating for. If you keep your list r/g to test Traverse, I'd suggest cutting Swiftspears for it, going down to 3 Reunions, and including 2 or 3 Pushes.
Ooooooooh, and I just noticed how great Traverse is with Shadow. It gets us Hollow Ones if we can cast them and Shadows if we're low enough on life. I think I'll do some testing myself! Combining Vines with a toolbox approach seems (in a low and content LSV voice) deeeece.
I moved the Brutalities to the sb, increased the number of Pushes (to have more instants), cut Gravecrawler and put in 3 Shadows and 2 Traverses.
I'm slightly worried about having Traverse and Tasigur in the same deck with so few cards to delve away, though.
I make misplays okay. I try to learn from them
I'm not a fan of running Lotleth Troll when you don't have Gravecrawler. Just seems bad imho. I'd rather have more one drops like Swiftspear or GG.
As for the nonbo that is Tasigur and Traverse, it's about as much of a nonbo as running Hooting Mandrills and Become Immense in the same deck is. I don't think it should be too much of an issue.
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What are everyone's thoughts on attempting to throw Memnites into the list. Alongside Hollow One they give you some additional 0 cost creatures to cast to recur Vengevine. I think they might be the next thing I test out.
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What are everyone's thoughts on attempting to throw Memnites into the list. Alongside Hollow One they give you some additional 0 cost creatures to cast to recur Vengevine. I think they might be the next thing I test out.
I've been waiting for someone to bring that up. I find them terrible, since they're virtually cards you discard to make 4/3s. I don't know if they'll be ok with the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo, but at that point, we'd be playing them because they're creatures. They're bad in the deck for the same reason Simian Spirit Guides are bad: too low-impact, terrible topdecks, card disadvantage.
I remember before when I played the full blown Dredgevine list they were horrible because if you wanted to make use of them you essentially had to also run 4 Ornithopter, which were even worse. But since you'd be using Hollow One as your other "free" creature, I think they're worth testing.
Plus honestly they might be worth it since we have the Become Immense + Temur Battle-Rage combo in the deck. They let you go wide enough with extra creatures you may be able to sneak in that win.
I also want to bring up Glitterfang, a card that someone mentioned to me in the "State of the Meta" thread. My opinion of it is that it looks cute, but isn't actually that good. But if anyone has tested it, let me know what you've thought of it.
Glitterfang hasn't been tested but I know that awhile back we discussed Lightning berserker, it seemed really lackluster but that was in a dredge based deck. It might be more useful in this newer version.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern: DredgeVine EDH: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Anima Standard:
Glitterfang hasn't been tested but I know that awhile back we discussed Lightning berserker, it seemed really lackluster but that was in a dredge based deck. It might be more useful in this newer version.
Berserker definitely seems better since it has the firebreathing. I may test them out, I'm not sure. As for now they're just another scribble in my notebook lol
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
More likes Rest in Pieces am I right (oh god I'm hilarious).
I'm surprised the the CoCo deck gave you that much trouble since your list has both Fatal Push and Collective Brutality. I suppose to downside to those cards however is to use them you have to not advance your board, which kind of sucks.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That is my opinion at least. I am currently just thinking of what to do with my varient and have considered going back to my original dredge vine/varolz decklist.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I'd suggest watching the wrap-up though as I go over a few of my ideas for how to change the RG List and what to do with it going forward.
I'm currently uploading everything, so I will edit this post later (or make a new post) with the playlist when everything is uploaded and ready to go.
Here is the playlist
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
The biggest a Cloudfin Raptor would ever get in this deck would be 3/4. And while I can see the value of it getting big with recurring Vines and such, what would you suggest I cut for it?
I would be willing to test it, though I don't think it is the best option available.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
What does everyone else think?
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I've been testing with your UR suggestion, I like running 4x Looting, Reunion and Charm, but I've noticed two kind of real issues with this direction. Mana, having to cast a two drop looting spell, then 1-2 1 drops to trigger the Vines is difficult, and a lack of Green mana means you can't hard cast Vines.
I'm going to test a Temur manabase, see if that fixes the green issue, I can see Traverse the Ulvenwald helping with the mana issues with all the 2 drop loot spells.
I think I'll go over my videos of the 2 Leagues I did and see how early I had delirium active first
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
You are correct about Evolve. Cloudfin Raptor can actually get up to a 4/5, which definitely makes me more interested in it.
I can also understand why there would be an issue with that many 2 mana loot spells. I think a better number may be closer to 3 each for Cathartic Reunion and Izzet Charm. I think I'm going to get the cards to try out my Temur additions. You shouldn't have to ever hard-cast Vengevine so I personally consider that a non-issue. Even with the RG list I'm never intentionally getting more than 1 green source unless I want to be casting 2 Become Immense.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
If Raptor is the first creature you cast in a turn, or is already in play, then recurring a bunch of Vengevines onto the board will most likely trigger it's Evolve multiple times, causing it to grow rather large. However, if instead it is the second creature you cast, every Vengevine in your graveyard will trigger and enter the battlefield before Raptor has resolved, meaning you want get any Evolve triggers. This means that Raptor is honestly quite restrictive with concerns to when you can cast it, which overall doesn't seem that great.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
It sounds likely that I'm doing some fairly impressive misplays, although I keep running into UW Control, so have occasionally had to hard-cast a Vengevine and a 1 drop to trigger more Vines.
I think I will play some more games with the 'stock' list, and your UR version, see if I can improve my play.
Lol no problem man. At the very least it let me test some random things
And rather than making misplays, I'd say you maybe just aren't seeing certain lines you could be taking.
For example if my opening hand has: Faithless Looting, Insolent Neonate, Hollow One, and Vengevine some people would play the Looting on turn 1, so as to make efficient use of mana and so that they aren't doing nothing on turn 1. However, if you instead wait until Turn 2, cast the looting, and then cast Neonate, Neonate's discard effect will make Hollow One free to cast, which will trigger Vengevine.
That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I make misplays okay. I try to learn from them
I'm not a fan of running Lotleth Troll when you don't have Gravecrawler. Just seems bad imho. I'd rather have more one drops like Swiftspear or GG.
As for the nonbo that is Tasigur and Traverse, it's about as much of a nonbo as running Hooting Mandrills and Become Immense in the same deck is. I don't think it should be too much of an issue.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I remember before when I played the full blown Dredgevine list they were horrible because if you wanted to make use of them you essentially had to also run 4 Ornithopter, which were even worse. But since you'd be using Hollow One as your other "free" creature, I think they're worth testing.
Plus honestly they might be worth it since we have the Become Immense + Temur Battle-Rage combo in the deck. They let you go wide enough with extra creatures you may be able to sneak in that win.
I also want to bring up Glitterfang, a card that someone mentioned to me in the "State of the Meta" thread. My opinion of it is that it looks cute, but isn't actually that good. But if anyone has tested it, let me know what you've thought of it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern:
EDH:
Standard:
Berserker definitely seems better since it has the firebreathing. I may test them out, I'm not sure. As for now they're just another scribble in my notebook lol
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I have found that to be the case for me
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB