Oh i agree that it needs to be left alone. If you read my comment i specifically say that there is speculation and arguements on the matter. I never said that I want the ban, i said if any of the two were going to be banned it should be wraith and this deck at this SCG proves my point that wraith is more ban worthy however, that does not mean it should be banned it only means that if anything is going to be banned I feel that its the card closest to being ban worthy though in my opinion nothing should be banned and nothing is ban worthy.
I was merely pointing out that if this deck continues like this and perhaps is built upon by pros than wraith will get banned as its already under the radar AND the card already has all the characteristics of the cards on the ban list and of what wizards is most cautious of.
I think modern is the healthiest its ever been and should be left as such. I am very happy with modern and i also believe it should be left untouched.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RUAffinityUR GMono Green StompyG CEldrazi TronC URWJeskai GeistWRU WRBoros BurnRW BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I used to use flamewake pheonix its honestly not that good.
Sure you can become immense it or whatever but its just not a good card imo. It doesnt bounce vine and hinestly it works best with what youre taking out (amalgam)
I would go goblin guide as it give most value. Swift spear is best when you have alot of spells for buffing creatures and the like. It will not see its full potential in your deck. Goblin on the other hand will.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RUAffinityUR GMono Green StompyG CEldrazi TronC URWJeskai GeistWRU WRBoros BurnRW BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
So I honestly feel that that R/G Vengevine list from the SCG Open this weekend is the direction this deck wants to go. At least with how the meta is right now. Here are my thoughts on why.
Which list seems like a better group of creatures for a hyper-aggressive deck? List B 100%! List B has more creatures that cost nothing, meaning it's easier to chain creatures and recur Vengevine. Not to mention that half of the listed creatures have Haste, meaning you are able to most swiftly pressure your opponent's life total. And the Haste factor also adds the bonus of a lot of draws also being able to just kill your opponent if they've used a sweeper or some other type of effect. Wrath of God but your opponent is at 2? Goblin Guide for the win baby!
Compare this with List A, which honestly has an extremely large setup cost. You don't cast [card}Bloodghast[/card], so those will never trigger Vengevine, and the Gravecrawler + Lotleth Troll recursive combo is BBG in casting cost, compared to a measly RR or RG in the other list. Then there is the fact that outside of Vengevine your only Haste creature is Bloodghast, but only when your opponent is below 10 life, this creature suite is a lot worse than the other one. I mean sure, Bloodghast having Haste at 10 or less life, definitely makes it meet the same benefit as the other list where they can help you close out the game with your opponent at a low life total. But because you need to get them to 10 or lower first, they aren't nearly as good at getting you that early aggressive start.
2) The Spells
Next is the fact that the RG List just has better support to finish off the opponent. The traditional lists we have been trying to run have been extremely spell light, usually only running Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. This is because by trying to jam so many graveyard matters creatures into the deck(Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Prized Amalgam) we essentially put in a lot of creatures we aren't casting to recur Vengevine. As such we need to devote more deck slots to having creatures we can actually cast. Since the RG list has a very minimalist approach to the graveyard by using Vengevine as the only recursive threat the deck is able to put more slots that help close the game like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, and Lightning Bolt. These closer cards are extremely important because they let the deck finish a game before the opponent can get their footing and stabilize.
3) The Sideboard
While the traditional list being BRG definitely allows for more sideboard options, restricting yourself to just RG gives you access to some single better sidebaord cards. A perfect example of this is Blood Moon. There is no way the Jund variant could run Moon in the sideboard, as it would hurt itself as much if not more than the opponent. However as a deck that is mainly red, and just very lightly splashing green, Blood Moon is an amazing sideboard card against the unfair decks like Tron.
Then there is the fact that the deck can essentially transform into a burn deck. Sideboard out the Delve cards, bring in another Goblin Guide, a Grim Lavamancer, some match ups specific burn sideboard cards, bam! Suddenly your opponent's anti-graveyard sideboard plan does literally nothing. They literally just made their deck worse against you by putting in dead cards. Again this is possible because of how small of a graveyard strategy the deck has running.
These are my thoughts after running about 5 1v1 matches on MTGO with the RG Vengevine list. I ended up going 4-1 with my only loss being to an Elf deck with an insane opener for Game 3. Because of what I mentioned above the deck feels so much more consistent, and so much more powerful than what we've been trying so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
So I honestly feel that that R/G Vengevine list from the SCG Open this weekend is the direction this deck wants to go. At least with how the meta is right now. Here are my thoughts on why.
So I honestly feel that that R/G Vengevine list from the SCG Open this weekend is the direction this deck wants to go. At least with how the meta is right now. Here are my thoughts on why.
Which list seems like a better group of creatures for a hyper-aggressive deck? List B 100%! List B has more creatures that cost nothing, meaning it's easier to chain creatures and recur Vengevine. Not to mention that half of the listed creatures have Haste, meaning you are able to most swiftly pressure your opponent's life total. And the Haste factor also adds the bonus of a lot of draws also being able to just kill your opponent if they've used a sweeper or some other type of effect. Wrath of God but your opponent is at 2? Goblin Guide for the win baby!
Compare this with List A, which honestly has an extremely large setup cost. You don't cast [card}Bloodghast[/card], so those will never trigger Vengevine, and the Gravecrawler + Lotleth Troll recursive combo is BBG in casting cost, compared to a measly RR or RG in the other list. Then there is the fact that outside of Vengevine your only Haste creature is Bloodghast, but only when your opponent is below 10 life, this creature suite is a lot worse than the other one. I mean sure, Bloodghast having Haste at 10 or less life, definitely makes it meet the same benefit as the other list where they can help you close out the game with your opponent at a low life total. But because you need to get them to 10 or lower first, they aren't nearly as good at getting you that early aggressive start.
2) The Spells
Next is the fact that the RG List just has better support to finish off the opponent. The traditional lists we have been trying to run have been extremely spell light, usually only running Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. This is because by trying to jam so many graveyard matters creatures into the deck(Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Prized Amalgam) we essentially put in a lot of creatures we aren't casting to recur Vengevine. As such we need to devote more deck slots to having creatures we can actually cast. Since the RG list has a very minimalist approach to the graveyard by using Vengevine as the only recursive threat the deck is able to put more slots that help close the game like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, and Lightning Bolt. These closer cards are extremely important because they let the deck finish a game before the opponent can get their footing and stabilize.
3) The Sideboard
While the traditional list being BRG definitely allows for more sideboard options, restricting yourself to just RG gives you access to some single better sidebaord cards. A perfect example of this is Blood Moon. There is no way the Jund variant could run Moon in the sideboard, as it would hurt itself as much if not more than the opponent. However as a deck that is mainly red, and just very lightly splashing green, Blood Moon is an amazing sideboard card against the unfair decks like Tron.
Then there is the fact that the deck can essentially transform into a burn deck. Sideboard out the Delve cards, bring in another Goblin Guide, a Grim Lavamancer, some match ups specific burn sideboard cards, bam! Suddenly your opponent's anti-graveyard sideboard plan does literally nothing. They literally just made their deck worse against you by putting in dead cards. Again this is possible because of how small of a graveyard strategy the deck has running.
These are my thoughts after running about 5 1v1 matches on MTGO with the RG Vengevine list. I ended up going 4-1 with my only loss being to an Elf deck with an insane opener for Game 3. Because of what I mentioned above the deck feels so much more consistent, and so much more powerful than what we've been trying so far.
I didnt even think about transforming into a burn deck to combat grave hate. A couple of things I dont like about the board is the leylines and domri. Just because not being able to cast the leylines and I have no idea what match I would want Rade in.
I didnt even think about transforming into a burn deck to combat grave hate. A couple of things I dont like about the board is the leylines and domri. Just because not being able to cast the leylines and I have no idea what match I would want Rade in.
I think you basically mirror most people's complaints about the deck at the moment. So from the games i played with the deck, this is what I can say.
While it is true you can't cast Leyline of the Void, I still think having 2 of them in your sideboard is fine. Best case scenario, you can auto win certain match ups that just concede to the card. Worst case scenario, you have a card you're 1000% okay with discarding to your Faithless Lootings, Cathartic Reunions or Insolent Neonates. With concerns to the risk/reward of running the 2 of, the floor isn't all that low, but the ceiling, in my opinion, is quite high. So definitely worth it in my opinion.
As for Domri Rade I was also confused at first. Personally it is the first card I would cut from the list but it does have some useful scenarios. First is against other creature decks (like the Elf one I lost to). Most creature decks play things smaller than our gigantic Vengevines or Hollow Ones, so being able to play Domri, have one of our creatures fight (and most likely kill) an opponent's creature, and have that be repeatable is pretty sweet. Second is against Control decks, where Rade can be an insane card advantage engine. If we manage to sneak him into play he can keep refueling our hand with creatures to continually pressure our opponent with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I played a few games with the scg list and was thoroughly disappointed overall.
One of the biggest issues I noticed is how poorly it "grinds."
Against bant eldrazi and eldrazi tron I felt hopeless as soon as they 'stabilized' with a larger board presence than I had, both drowner and endbringer are unbeatable when coupled with tks/smashers to block everything else. Dismember turns off the ability to 1 shot them via battlerage, domri rade was the only somewhat grindy card as it's + ability created card advantage and threatening the ult forced opp to extend into attacking/ballista'ing it back down.
It was 'meh' against burn, I think I lost this match due to lack of skill, the deck is much more difficult to pilot than it's aggressive appearance leads you to believe.
Was waaay too slow against affinity, I'm guessing the t3 kill rate with the deck is substantially less than it looked on camera.
I played a few games with the scg list and was thoroughly disappointed overall.
One of the biggest issues I noticed is how poorly it "grinds."
Against bant eldrazi and eldrazi tron I felt hopeless as soon as they 'stabilized' with a larger board presence than I had, both drowner and endbringer are unbeatable when coupled with tks/smashers to block everything else. Dismember turns off the ability to 1 shot them via battlerage, domri rade was the only somewhat grindy card as it's + ability created card advantage and threatening the ult forced opp to extend into attacking/ballista'ing it back down.
It was 'meh' against burn, I think I lost this match due to lack of skill, the deck is much more difficult to pilot than it's aggressive appearance leads you to believe.
Was waaay too slow against affinity, I'm guessing the t3 kill rate with the deck is substantially less than it looked on camera.
You elude to this later on but this isn't the easiest deck to pilot. It looks super straight forward (play dudes, smash face) but it isn't exactly that easy. There are some lines you need to keep in mind, such as when to play or not to play a creature, which creatures to play, how to line up your discarding/cycling appropriately, etc.
I know that with the 5 matches I played (extremely small sample size I know) I was killing my opponent on Turn 3 or 4 almost every single game. It takes knowing what hands you can and cannot keep. Despite what Julian said in the deck-tech, I think the deck mulligans decently well, though you don't ever want to go below 5 cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
For a long time I didn't know how to feel about the list that went 10-5 at the SCG Open, finishing at a decent 35th place (as a reminder, here's the list: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/rg_vengevine_with_julian_grace.html). After giving it some more thought, watching the list played a couple times, and discussing the configuration with a friend of mine whose opinion on all things Modern I value very highly (bloke has like 10 tier 1 to tier 2.5 Modern decks ready to be sleeved up), I feel like I can finally put the reasons Julian's version doesn't convince me into words.
First of all, the deck is, what we in German would call 'neither fish, nor meat', meaning it does two things, but none of them properly. It often seems to play out like a slow burn deck with bad lategame. Other times it's an agressive combo deck that could be even more consistent and faster if it would commit to being one. But it doesn't. I think the main reason I get this impression is because Swiftspear and Goblin Guide aren't cards you want sitting in your hand, a play you often have to make if you want to trigger Vengevine(s). At the same time, they're dead in the yard, which makes the other approach, cycling through your deck and recurring action from your yard with cheap Hollow Ones or small beaters, worse. To circumvent this, the list runs delve cards. Here the problem again is that you don't simply dump loads of cards into the gy because discarding with Looting or Reunion is a quite 'conscious' process, meaning you often only discard those cards you want to discard. In turn, you don't want to then exile those cards from your gy to make the ones you didn't discard cheaper. Mind you, I'm not making a point against running delve cards in this archetype, but I am cautioning against running too many and especially against running too many that don't actively help you pursue your gameplan. In this case, the weird 3/2 split of Become Immense and Hooting Mandrills. In my opinion, 3 to 4 Mandrills would help the deck be a little more streamlined.
First off, thanks for the great write up of your opinion on why you don't like Julian's RG Vengevine list. Now excuse me while I criticize it
To me, the 3/2 Become Immense/Hooting Mandrills split makes sense. To start, this is because, as you pointed out, you are discarding a lot of cards and are able to quickly stock up your graveyard. Now why the 3/2 split? Why not 2/3, or 4/1, etc? Well the problem with Delve cards is without a LOT of dedication to fueling them you aren't going to be able to cast multiples in a game. The list itself is geared more towards trying to kill your opponent as quickly as possible, with you specifically aiming to have your opponent dead by turn 3. Because of the aim at winning at such an early point in the game, you aren't going to have multiple turns to pitch multiple cards in the graveyard. As such on average you're going to be able to cast 1, maybe 2 Delve spells per game. With 5 total Delve cards in the deck the numbers are set up so that you should have one every single game. Honestly I feel like 5 is the perfect number in this case. With 6 or 7 Delve cards you run the risk of drawing too many and not being able to cast them. With 4 or less you run a higher risk of not drawing any at all. But with 5 you can reasonably plan to have a Delve spell to make use of by Turn 3. Now the question is why is the split 3/2 with there being more Become Immense than Hooting Mandrills? With the deck being focused around Vengevine, you would think that Mandrills would be the higher numbered card. However Mandrills aren't nearly as good at closing out the game as Become Immense is. In the same token, Mandrills is still important because it is a creature that can be cast to help recur your Vengevines. So you're in a situation where you want Become Immense more often than Hooting Mandrills because it helps you win the game faster, but don't want such a low number of Mandrills as to hardly ever draw them. Thus the 3/2 split.
This leads me to my next point:
The spell suite seems half-baked. It provides outs for a combo finish, but often lacks essential parts because it's more of a splash in a deck that looks to do other things. Temur Battle Rage can be a blowout, but it's at least as often just a card you discard; and one that doesn't provide value because of it at that. Suiting up a creature with +6/+6 and double strike in a meta rampant with 1-cmc removal spells is also absolutely not where I want to be. Additionally, I believe Lightning Bolt is at its weakest point ever in Modern right now. Yes, it does still bolt birds, but apart from that (and it's ability to go to the face), you're almost always better off going either black for Push or white for Path. I you don't utilise being able to finish off opponents with it on a regular basis (as, for example, Burn does), there's little reason to run it as cheap removal.
Any deck that runs the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo, run only 2 Battle Rage. This is because in most instances Battle Rage on it's own is just a garbage card. This deck does have the added benefit of having a lot of fourpowercreatures which helps turn on the Trample half of the card in most cases which can definitely help you win games against chump blockers. Now I honestly agree with your opinions on Lightning Bolt. Modern's current state is the worst possible meta for anyone to use Lightning Bolt in. There are just too few creatures that it can kill, and while it can go to the face, it does seem mediocre if it's your only real dedicated face card. However are are definitely merits to it being in a deck that, as I stated before, is trying to win by Turn 3. As it stands right now I would probably swap the Bolts with Atarka's Commands and see how they pan out. Being able to dome your opponent is definitely good, and the added benefit of a pump to your team for lethal seems quite strong.
Speaking about black as the better alternative:
You lose very little by going 3 colours and gain a whole lot, especially for the sideboarded games. Thoughtseize, Bloodghast, the bigger delve creatures in Tasigur and/or Angler (that stonewall Mandrills, btw), Abrupt Decay, Leyline, Collective Brutality, and even the ability to hardcast Street Wraith are enough reasons for me to be black. There are even arguments to be made to go into other colour combinations (like blue for Jace, Vrin's Prodigy), but few for only being in gruul. I have been continuously impressed by how difficult it is for many decks in the current meta to deal with fast, recurrsive threats, and things like Bloodghast or Gravecrawler are prime examples of that. I also cannot stress enough how great a package of Tasigurs is in this list. You delve away things to cast it, often for 1 to 3 mana in the first 3 turns, it triggers Vine, and its ability becomes quite relevant as our gy isn't littered with cards we don't want in our hand most of the time. It's a big body that compares very well to other threats in the format, supports our gameplan, and provides card advantage in the mid- to lategame. Admittedly, our opponent can return things like Vine if we mill it, but I'm not below casting them for the full four. I have won games off of topdecked 4/3 haste vegetables and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
There is one very important thing you do lose from going 3 colours that I think needs to be mentioned. One of the best ways in Modern to deal with decks that do fancy things with their lands (such as Amulet or Tron variants) is to use Blood Moon. It is one of the most devastating hate cards Modern has to offer (with Rest in Peace and Stony Silence being the only hate cards I would put above it on power level) and by being an almost mono-red deck, Blood Moon is a free inclusion for the sideboard. Without Blood Moon our match ups against unfair land decks become A LOT more difficult, and in my opinion, near impossible to win. Adding that third colour to the deck makes the mana base too greedy to run Blood Moon which I think is an essential card to deal with certain match ups.
As for using other colours, I have been toying around with the idea of running a UR style Vengevine List...
Obviously this is a very rough draft, but I like how blue adds access to Izzet Charm. Additionally this deck, similar to Grixis Shadow, is able ot basically always have the Ferocious mode of Stubborn Denial turned on, which is pretty sweet. The green splash for Become Immense in here is a concession to the fact that there are no Delve creatures outside of green or black, and I want to still have some Delve thing to do. Plus it makes it so I can still get full value out of an Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
Personally I am all for trying different colours with the deck, but I am of the firm belief that keeping the deck as close to mono red as possible is the best way to make a good version of the deck with a good sideboard plan.
All in all, I don't think Julian's list is the ideal iteration of this deck. It plays cards that make a deck which doesn't need to be weak to removal weak to removal, doesn't pursue a strict gamplan, but hedges between three diverging ones, and has a sb I would call sketchy at best. I do think it does introduce interesting ideas to the discussion, but overall it seems much more poorly positioned in the current meta and not set up as smoothly as I'd like a Modern deck to be. I feel like I forgot to mention one or two things I wanted to say, so maybe you see me edit this post as we go along. Please feel free to give me feedback on this little review. Julian has definitely assembled and piloted a list that needs to be talked about here thoroughly.
I really don't understand why people are so confused by Julian's sideboard plan. Perhaps it's because I've been playing so many games with my Vengeful One list, but I understand almost every sideboard card decision.
These 2 are part of a sort of transformational package in the sideboard. Against a lot of decks your Delve cards are very poor after game 1 because they are going to board in ways to deal with your graveyard like Relic of Progenitus or Rest in Peace. So you turn yourself into more of a Burn list, which helps to just blank their sideboard plans. And on the off chacne that they don't get their graveyard hate you are trading a sometime 1 mana creature (Mandrills) for 2 always 1 mana creatures.
As stated above, being essentially mono red makes this a free inclusion which helps make the unfair mana match ups more fair. We want to stop our opponent from doing unfair things, because we want to do all the unfair things. Obviously this card is better on the play than it is on the draw however.
The reason there aren't 4 of these is you don't want to be sideboarding a lot of cards. You want to keep your mainboard plan as intact as possible, so you don't want to be swapping around too many cards. 2 Leylines is fine as if you really thinkyou need them you can try mulliganing for them. Plus the deck at least has the added benefit of having a lot of discard outlets in case you draw them.
Now this is the card that confuses the f&$% out of everyone. Why Domri? What does he even do for the deck? Well a few things. First his plus can help us find more creatures, which is amazing if you are in top deck mode and you want to recur some Vengevines. His minus is basically removal since a lot of our creatures are 4 power, and a lot of creatures outside of Grixis Shadow aren't 4 toughness. And finally, while I doubt you'd ever use it, the ultimate is basically the "I win NOW" button since it just makes all your creatures bananas.
At the end of the day I agree that Julian's list isn't well refined, but it is definitely a great starting point. Perhaps you are right and black is better than green. In which case I may try out a RB Vine list and see how that rolls. But at this point I am at least convinced that keeping the deck as close to one colour as possible is the correct decision.
(If there are any typos or grammar errors, point them out and I'll fix them later. I am too damn tired right now to go over everything I just wrote lol)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Thanks as always for the fast and insightful comment, Skizta You make a bunch of valid points and I'm intrigued to see them unfold should you continue to develop your own version of this deck. I'll stay in Jund for the moment and do some testing. It's probably best to have at least two different approaches pursued in this thread, anyways, so that we get the most use out of everyone's comments. I'll keep reporting back. Let me/us know how your testing goes. I'm also always in for more videos
Anytime
My next couple sets of videos will probably be me just playing Julian's list so I can get a better feel of it before making changes. But as I keep saying, when I have time to do them depends on how damn tired I am after work. Is it sad I am looking forward to my college semester starting back up so I can work less?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Thanks as always for the fast and insightful comment, Skizta You make a bunch of valid points and I'm intrigued to see them unfold should you continue to develop your own version of this deck. I'll stay in Jund for the moment and do some testing. It's probably best to have at least two different approaches pursued in this thread, anyways, so that we get the most use out of everyone's comments. I'll keep reporting back. Let me/us know how your testing goes. I'm also always in for more videos
Anytime
My next couple sets of videos will probably be me just playing Julian's list so I can get a better feel of it before making changes. But as I keep saying, when I have time to do them depends on how damn tired I am after work. Is it sad I am looking forward to my college semester starting back up so I can work less?
No, that's normal. A friend of mine is in his late 20s and can't finish his Bachelor's because he has to work so much to finance his Bachelor's in the first place. And we don't even have to pay tuition in Germany...
Thankfully Tuition in Canada isn't that bad. My next semester is only $2200.
But back to the main topic of conversation....
If I were to take Julian's list and make it BR instead of RG what are cards you would suggest outside of Fatal Push and Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I still like 2 mainboard Brutalies against an unknown field. Other than that, Thoughtseize has been great for me as a 3-of in the side. The same goes for one or two Darkblast against CoCo decks. I've also been considering Big Game Hunter as a new sb option.
I'm gonna have to do some testing to see how BGH works with Hollow One.
You see, strictly speaking, in paper Magic, you need to discard BGH in order to cast him for the Madness cost, meaning that Hollow One will still get the 2 mana discount.
HOWEVER.
Will it work on MTGO? I am curious because if it does, then 1-2 copies of BGH might actually be good mainboard since casting it for the Madness cost still counts as casting a creature to get back your Vengevines. And when you add that you're getting the Madness off of discarding it, which decreases Hollow One's cost, well....
*CHOO CHOO* ALL ABOARD! WE'RE HEADED STRAIGHT TO SYNERGY STATION
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was merely pointing out that if this deck continues like this and perhaps is built upon by pros than wraith will get banned as its already under the radar AND the card already has all the characteristics of the cards on the ban list and of what wizards is most cautious of.
I think modern is the healthiest its ever been and should be left as such. I am very happy with modern and i also believe it should be left untouched.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Sure you can become immense it or whatever but its just not a good card imo. It doesnt bounce vine and hinestly it works best with what youre taking out (amalgam)
I would go goblin guide as it give most value. Swift spear is best when you have alot of spells for buffing creatures and the like. It will not see its full potential in your deck. Goblin on the other hand will.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
1) The creatures
Look at these two lists of creatures:
1x Gravecrawler
1x Lotleth Troll
1x Bloodghast
1x Goblin Guide
1x Monastery Swiftspear
1x Hooting Mandrills
Compare this with List A, which honestly has an extremely large setup cost. You don't cast [card}Bloodghast[/card], so those will never trigger Vengevine, and the Gravecrawler + Lotleth Troll recursive combo is BBG in casting cost, compared to a measly RR or RG in the other list. Then there is the fact that outside of Vengevine your only Haste creature is Bloodghast, but only when your opponent is below 10 life, this creature suite is a lot worse than the other one. I mean sure, Bloodghast having Haste at 10 or less life, definitely makes it meet the same benefit as the other list where they can help you close out the game with your opponent at a low life total. But because you need to get them to 10 or lower first, they aren't nearly as good at getting you that early aggressive start.
2) The Spells
Next is the fact that the RG List just has better support to finish off the opponent. The traditional lists we have been trying to run have been extremely spell light, usually only running Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. This is because by trying to jam so many graveyard matters creatures into the deck(Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Prized Amalgam) we essentially put in a lot of creatures we aren't casting to recur Vengevine. As such we need to devote more deck slots to having creatures we can actually cast. Since the RG list has a very minimalist approach to the graveyard by using Vengevine as the only recursive threat the deck is able to put more slots that help close the game like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, and Lightning Bolt. These closer cards are extremely important because they let the deck finish a game before the opponent can get their footing and stabilize.
3) The Sideboard
While the traditional list being BRG definitely allows for more sideboard options, restricting yourself to just RG gives you access to some single better sidebaord cards. A perfect example of this is Blood Moon. There is no way the Jund variant could run Moon in the sideboard, as it would hurt itself as much if not more than the opponent. However as a deck that is mainly red, and just very lightly splashing green, Blood Moon is an amazing sideboard card against the unfair decks like Tron.
Then there is the fact that the deck can essentially transform into a burn deck. Sideboard out the Delve cards, bring in another Goblin Guide, a Grim Lavamancer, some match ups specific burn sideboard cards, bam! Suddenly your opponent's anti-graveyard sideboard plan does literally nothing. They literally just made their deck worse against you by putting in dead cards. Again this is possible because of how small of a graveyard strategy the deck has running.
These are my thoughts after running about 5 1v1 matches on MTGO with the RG Vengevine list. I ended up going 4-1 with my only loss being to an Elf deck with an insane opener for Game 3. Because of what I mentioned above the deck feels so much more consistent, and so much more powerful than what we've been trying so far.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Can you link to the deck your talking about? I looked at all the Opens Decklists and i cant find any list that is running monastery swiftspear and GG
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I didnt even think about transforming into a burn deck to combat grave hate. A couple of things I dont like about the board is the leylines and domri. Just because not being able to cast the leylines and I have no idea what match I would want Rade in.
I think you basically mirror most people's complaints about the deck at the moment. So from the games i played with the deck, this is what I can say.
While it is true you can't cast Leyline of the Void, I still think having 2 of them in your sideboard is fine. Best case scenario, you can auto win certain match ups that just concede to the card. Worst case scenario, you have a card you're 1000% okay with discarding to your Faithless Lootings, Cathartic Reunions or Insolent Neonates. With concerns to the risk/reward of running the 2 of, the floor isn't all that low, but the ceiling, in my opinion, is quite high. So definitely worth it in my opinion.
As for Domri Rade I was also confused at first. Personally it is the first card I would cut from the list but it does have some useful scenarios. First is against other creature decks (like the Elf one I lost to). Most creature decks play things smaller than our gigantic Vengevines or Hollow Ones, so being able to play Domri, have one of our creatures fight (and most likely kill) an opponent's creature, and have that be repeatable is pretty sweet. Second is against Control decks, where Rade can be an insane card advantage engine. If we manage to sneak him into play he can keep refueling our hand with creatures to continually pressure our opponent with.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
One of the biggest issues I noticed is how poorly it "grinds."
Against bant eldrazi and eldrazi tron I felt hopeless as soon as they 'stabilized' with a larger board presence than I had, both drowner and endbringer are unbeatable when coupled with tks/smashers to block everything else. Dismember turns off the ability to 1 shot them via battlerage, domri rade was the only somewhat grindy card as it's + ability created card advantage and threatening the ult forced opp to extend into attacking/ballista'ing it back down.
It was 'meh' against burn, I think I lost this match due to lack of skill, the deck is much more difficult to pilot than it's aggressive appearance leads you to believe.
Was waaay too slow against affinity, I'm guessing the t3 kill rate with the deck is substantially less than it looked on camera.
You elude to this later on but this isn't the easiest deck to pilot. It looks super straight forward (play dudes, smash face) but it isn't exactly that easy. There are some lines you need to keep in mind, such as when to play or not to play a creature, which creatures to play, how to line up your discarding/cycling appropriately, etc.
I know that with the 5 matches I played (extremely small sample size I know) I was killing my opponent on Turn 3 or 4 almost every single game. It takes knowing what hands you can and cannot keep. Despite what Julian said in the deck-tech, I think the deck mulligans decently well, though you don't ever want to go below 5 cards.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Honestly the reason I've been talking about it is that because it is a twist on my Dredgevine list that I had been testing the last few weeks.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I can see most people bringing in graveyard hate, so boarding in more graveyard-matters cards seems like a horrible plan.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
First off, thanks for the great write up of your opinion on why you don't like Julian's RG Vengevine list. Now excuse me while I criticize it
To me, the 3/2 Become Immense/Hooting Mandrills split makes sense. To start, this is because, as you pointed out, you are discarding a lot of cards and are able to quickly stock up your graveyard. Now why the 3/2 split? Why not 2/3, or 4/1, etc? Well the problem with Delve cards is without a LOT of dedication to fueling them you aren't going to be able to cast multiples in a game. The list itself is geared more towards trying to kill your opponent as quickly as possible, with you specifically aiming to have your opponent dead by turn 3. Because of the aim at winning at such an early point in the game, you aren't going to have multiple turns to pitch multiple cards in the graveyard. As such on average you're going to be able to cast 1, maybe 2 Delve spells per game. With 5 total Delve cards in the deck the numbers are set up so that you should have one every single game. Honestly I feel like 5 is the perfect number in this case. With 6 or 7 Delve cards you run the risk of drawing too many and not being able to cast them. With 4 or less you run a higher risk of not drawing any at all. But with 5 you can reasonably plan to have a Delve spell to make use of by Turn 3. Now the question is why is the split 3/2 with there being more Become Immense than Hooting Mandrills? With the deck being focused around Vengevine, you would think that Mandrills would be the higher numbered card. However Mandrills aren't nearly as good at closing out the game as Become Immense is. In the same token, Mandrills is still important because it is a creature that can be cast to help recur your Vengevines. So you're in a situation where you want Become Immense more often than Hooting Mandrills because it helps you win the game faster, but don't want such a low number of Mandrills as to hardly ever draw them. Thus the 3/2 split.
Any deck that runs the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo, run only 2 Battle Rage. This is because in most instances Battle Rage on it's own is just a garbage card. This deck does have the added benefit of having a lot of four power creatures which helps turn on the Trample half of the card in most cases which can definitely help you win games against chump blockers. Now I honestly agree with your opinions on Lightning Bolt. Modern's current state is the worst possible meta for anyone to use Lightning Bolt in. There are just too few creatures that it can kill, and while it can go to the face, it does seem mediocre if it's your only real dedicated face card. However are are definitely merits to it being in a deck that, as I stated before, is trying to win by Turn 3. As it stands right now I would probably swap the Bolts with Atarka's Commands and see how they pan out. Being able to dome your opponent is definitely good, and the added benefit of a pump to your team for lethal seems quite strong.
There is one very important thing you do lose from going 3 colours that I think needs to be mentioned. One of the best ways in Modern to deal with decks that do fancy things with their lands (such as Amulet or Tron variants) is to use Blood Moon. It is one of the most devastating hate cards Modern has to offer (with Rest in Peace and Stony Silence being the only hate cards I would put above it on power level) and by being an almost mono-red deck, Blood Moon is a free inclusion for the sideboard. Without Blood Moon our match ups against unfair land decks become A LOT more difficult, and in my opinion, near impossible to win. Adding that third colour to the deck makes the mana base too greedy to run Blood Moon which I think is an essential card to deal with certain match ups.
As for using other colours, I have been toying around with the idea of running a UR style Vengevine List...
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
5x Mountain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
4x Faithless Looting
4x Izzet Charm
3x Become Immense
3x Cathartic Reunion
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
Obviously this is a very rough draft, but I like how blue adds access to Izzet Charm. Additionally this deck, similar to Grixis Shadow, is able ot basically always have the Ferocious mode of Stubborn Denial turned on, which is pretty sweet. The green splash for Become Immense in here is a concession to the fact that there are no Delve creatures outside of green or black, and I want to still have some Delve thing to do. Plus it makes it so I can still get full value out of an Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
Personally I am all for trying different colours with the deck, but I am of the firm belief that keeping the deck as close to mono red as possible is the best way to make a good version of the deck with a good sideboard plan.
I really don't understand why people are so confused by Julian's sideboard plan. Perhaps it's because I've been playing so many games with my Vengeful One list, but I understand almost every sideboard card decision.
1x Goblin Guide
1x Grim Lavamancer
These 2 are part of a sort of transformational package in the sideboard. Against a lot of decks your Delve cards are very poor after game 1 because they are going to board in ways to deal with your graveyard like Relic of Progenitus or Rest in Peace. So you turn yourself into more of a Burn list, which helps to just blank their sideboard plans. And on the off chacne that they don't get their graveyard hate you are trading a sometime 1 mana creature (Mandrills) for 2 always 1 mana creatures.
2x Blood Moon
As stated above, being essentially mono red makes this a free inclusion which helps make the unfair mana match ups more fair. We want to stop our opponent from doing unfair things, because we want to do all the unfair things. Obviously this card is better on the play than it is on the draw however.
2x Leyline of the Void
The reason there aren't 4 of these is you don't want to be sideboarding a lot of cards. You want to keep your mainboard plan as intact as possible, so you don't want to be swapping around too many cards. 2 Leylines is fine as if you really thinkyou need them you can try mulliganing for them. Plus the deck at least has the added benefit of having a lot of discard outlets in case you draw them.
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Destructive Revelry
I don't think I really need to explain these ones. Artifact/Enchantment removal is good, and these spells are pretty premium.
2x Feed the Clan
Burn is a deck, basically.
2x Roast
Kills Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, plus a slew of other creatures that could otherwise brick wall our deck. Gets my stamp of approval.
1x DOmri Rade
Now this is the card that confuses the f&$% out of everyone. Why Domri? What does he even do for the deck? Well a few things. First his plus can help us find more creatures, which is amazing if you are in top deck mode and you want to recur some Vengevines. His minus is basically removal since a lot of our creatures are 4 power, and a lot of creatures outside of Grixis Shadow aren't 4 toughness. And finally, while I doubt you'd ever use it, the ultimate is basically the "I win NOW" button since it just makes all your creatures bananas.
At the end of the day I agree that Julian's list isn't well refined, but it is definitely a great starting point. Perhaps you are right and black is better than green. In which case I may try out a RB Vine list and see how that rolls. But at this point I am at least convinced that keeping the deck as close to one colour as possible is the correct decision.
(If there are any typos or grammar errors, point them out and I'll fix them later. I am too damn tired right now to go over everything I just wrote lol)
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Anytime
My next couple sets of videos will probably be me just playing Julian's list so I can get a better feel of it before making changes. But as I keep saying, when I have time to do them depends on how damn tired I am after work. Is it sad I am looking forward to my college semester starting back up so I can work less?
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Thankfully Tuition in Canada isn't that bad. My next semester is only $2200.
But back to the main topic of conversation....
If I were to take Julian's list and make it BR instead of RG what are cards you would suggest outside of Fatal Push and Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I'm gonna have to do some testing to see how BGH works with Hollow One.
You see, strictly speaking, in paper Magic, you need to discard BGH in order to cast him for the Madness cost, meaning that Hollow One will still get the 2 mana discount.
HOWEVER.
Will it work on MTGO? I am curious because if it does, then 1-2 copies of BGH might actually be good mainboard since casting it for the Madness cost still counts as casting a creature to get back your Vengevines. And when you add that you're getting the Madness off of discarding it, which decreases Hollow One's cost, well....
*CHOO CHOO* ALL ABOARD! WE'RE HEADED STRAIGHT TO SYNERGY STATION
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard: