I've found Big Zoo to have a very positive MU vs. Grixis DS.
It would explain Big Zoo's most recent finish (with a list that I think is not very good, although I do like Elspeth, Knight-Errant against CoCo decks). Grixis wasn't as big in Baltimore, where I made day 2 and then had a pitiful finish -- largely getting ranched by aggressive affinity draws, storm, and Counters CoCo -- but since it's emergence as top dog, I'd say that Big Zoo is an excellent predator.
You go just as tall as they do and your removal forces then to use their mana inefficiently to hold up Stubborn Denial -- all the while you can develop your board and force them into situations where their discard is bad, their counters are bad, they're flooding out, and they need a Terminate.
Anyway, I do have an updated list but it mostly involves changes to the SB. I think that's where my list was weakest. I needed something like Kataki or Ancient Grudge, to keep Affinity off of their Master of Etherium draws -- which where the ones I lost to.
The 11th place list only had one Eidolon of Rhetoric. I think that's probably wrong, depending on storms share of the room. Thalia doesn't do what she used to do against storm (constrict their mana) since they now have 8 Electromancer effects. I'd play 2x or a 1x Eidolon 1x Ethersworn Canonistsplit -- although Eidolon is much better vs. snapcaster control decks.
I like Fiery Justice. It's not as good vs. certain draws from coco but it deals with go-wide regardless. It's a 3 mana answer to a Tasigur or a Gurmag -- which interestingly also turns off their DS but I'm not sure I want a 3 mana removal spell in that MU. After playing events with Bonfire, a card I've always despised but felt I needed recently due to Counters CoCo, I'm ready to make the switch back from this miracle nonsense. I played Justice for a bit but was finding it was redundant with Declaration in Stone. I can probably cut one of those and get myself on 1x Dec.
I'm MDing Avens. It may seem like a lot but the card just is flexible and evasive. Bolt isn't really good right now so it's not outrageous to play. It snags all the pieces it normally did and even can keep your DS opponent from dealing an extra 2 to themselves.
I'm all on 2x Tracker and not 1x. If your opponent lets you untap they usually lose (unless they're combo).
Play 3x Blood Moon -- it's the best chance you have in a lot of MUs and ppl forget about it in 3 color midrange decks. Snow-Covered Mountain? They're expecting it. Horizon Canopy? Nope.
I'm just going to play 2x Harsh Mentor in the board. It could be terrible but I need to find out. Our counters coco MU is a joke. And one that's not funny for us.
I like Fiery Justice. It's not as good vs. certain draws from coco but it deals with go-wide regardless. It's a 3 mana answer to a Tasigur or a Gurmag -- which interestingly also turns off their DS but I'm not sure I want a 3 mana removal spell in that MU. After playing events with Bonfire, a card I've always despised but felt I needed recently due to Counters CoCo, I'm ready to make the switch back from this miracle nonsense. I played Justice for a bit but was finding it was redundant with Declaration in Stone. I can probably cut one of those and get myself on 1x Dec.
Play 3x Blood Moon -- it's the best chance you have in a lot of MUs and ppl forget about it in 3 color midrange decks. Snow-Covered Mountain? They're expecting it. Horizon Canopy? Nope.
I'm just going to play 2x Harsh Mentor in the board. It could be terrible but I need to find out. Our counters coco MU is a joke. And one that's not funny for us.
Personally I've opted to go with Kozilek's Return with the rise of Counters CoCo, you really want to be able to react with them at instant speed and it pretty much kills everything in their deck.
What matchups are you boarding Blood Moon in against? The only matchup I used to board it in against was Scapeshift, so I've essentially removed it from my boarding strategy, because I'd much rather use other options in the Tron/Eldrazi matchups and don't need it against 3c midrange decks where I can just go grindier. With the speed of the format I've cut tracker because it's too slow and am testing a MD Lavamancer in the list.
What matchups are you boarding Blood Moon in against? The only matchup I used to board it in against was Scapeshift, so I've essentially removed it from my boarding strategy, because I'd much rather use other options in the Tron/Eldrazi matchups and don't need it against 3c midrange decks where I can just go grindier. With the speed of the format I've cut tracker because it's too slow and am testing a MD Lavamancer in the list.
I board it in vs. Eldrazi Tron and regular tron. Neither is particularly good at beating it. Sometimes they can stick a collar and Walking Ballista underneath but but in most cases they end up with a hand full of mana inefficient cards -- which they can play since they have 2 wastes and can easily Map to -- they're just forced to play on curve with inefficient beaters.
I generally dislike Kozilek's Return since it is somewhat of a mana development battle though I understand it's application. I prefer trying to kill a few things and push past their defenses. Harsh Mentor forces their hand in finding removal, which they sorely lack, which lets your Knight have a turn or two unhindered. We probably take very different approaches to the MU.
I get your original complaint about Tracker but then I also see you're playing a Domri Rade, which is somewhat contradictory to me.
I think Smiter is long the crappiest card in Naya zoo. It's wording is rarely relevant, it's smaller than DS, Gurmag, Tasigur, can't interact with affinities fliers, coco's combo... the list goes on. I play Smiter because it's the most efficient way to play a 3 drop idiot and get your opponent dead.
I've also been long anti-Voice of Resurgence. It's good in a Fatal Push world but bad against threats. It also hits like a wuss. We likely have different playstyles.
What matchups are you boarding Blood Moon in against? The only matchup I used to board it in against was Scapeshift, so I've essentially removed it from my boarding strategy, because I'd much rather use other options in the Tron/Eldrazi matchups and don't need it against 3c midrange decks where I can just go grindier. With the speed of the format I've cut tracker because it's too slow and am testing a MD Lavamancer in the list.
I board it in vs. Eldrazi Tron and regular tron. Neither is particularly good at beating it. Sometimes they can stick a collar and Walking Ballista underneath but but in most cases they end up with a hand full of mana inefficient cards -- which they can play since they have 2 wastes and can easily Map to -- they're just forced to play on curve with inefficient beaters.
I generally dislike Kozilek's Return since it is somewhat of a mana development battle though I understand it's application. I prefer trying to kill a few things and push past their defenses. Harsh Mentor forces their hand in finding removal, which they sorely lack, which lets your Knight have a turn or two unhindered. We probably take very different approaches to the MU.
I get your original complaint about Tracker but then I also see you're playing a Domri Rade, which is somewhat contradictory to me.
I think Smiter is long the crappiest card in Naya zoo. It's wording is rarely relevant, it's smaller than DS, Gurmag, Tasigur, can't interact with affinities fliers, coco's combo... the list goes on. I play Smiter because it's the most efficient way to play a 3 drop idiot and get your opponent dead.
I've also been long anti-Voice of Resurgence. It's good in a Fatal Push world but bad against threats. It also hits like a wuss. We likely have different playstyles.
3x Scooze is a lot of Scooze.
I agree about Smiter, his time to shine is definitely in a land full of bolts and b/u decks. He's great when it's tough to stick creatures to the board and offers great p/t to boot, but it may be correct to trim 1-2 for Trackers.
Domri is a beast in almost every matchup. He's the 5th path to exile and 4th company. Voice is also great for reasons you say Moon is, he makes any interactive deck play on your terms. Scooze was a 2of but now 3 because of the uptick in dredge, witness, and snapcasters. We probably do have different play styles that reflect in our selections.
Look, if were talkin' big dumb 3 maana idiots... Woolly Thoctar is the biggest and dumbest. NO utlity what so ever, but hey. Pure Beef.
Although based off these new leaks, looks like the dinosaurs in a year from now are naya colored! Maybe well get the beef we sorely need to make E1 and Rhonas really good.
Look, if were talkin' big dumb 3 maana idiots... Woolly Thoctar is the biggest and dumbest. NO utlity what so ever, but hey. Pure Beef.
Although based off these new leaks, looks like the dinosaurs in a year from now are naya colored! Maybe well get the beef we sorely need to make E1 and Rhonas really good.
Look, if were talkin' big dumb 3 maana idiots... Woolly Thoctar is the biggest and dumbest. NO utlity what so ever, but hey. Pure Beef.
Can't fetch basics and t2 him off a t1 Hierarch.
One of the reasons that I'm at least lukewarm to Loxodon Smiter is that he's a brick wall vs. a deck like Burn and you don't have to fetch + shock to get him into play early.
I wasnt suggesting he was good. I like him because I like him, kinda how I like Gourgeist in pokemon. I just brought him up because realistically, if we are saying that the text on smiter doesnt matter, than Wooly is, except niche reasons, just an upgrade to him.
Zoo has always sorta had this weird Utlity vs game endingness scale in its 3 cmcs. Knight, smitter stand on the top of the others by virtue of not needing work to do its thing. Wooly kinda needs trample and more butt, Anafenza, the Foremost, Geist of St Traft, Doran, the Siege Towerare all off color, and Rhonas the Indomitable has a restriction, which to date the pool doesnt just support a turn 3 play and work of him.
Id wager Rhonas will be the future of these deck in a few years, once they keep doing these goyf like pushes on 2 drops we've seen.
Id wager Rhonas will be the future of these deck in a few years, once they keep doing these goyf like pushes on 2 drops we've seen.
We haven't had a Goyf type card since goyf. And I think they learned their lesson that they can't make a 2cmc creature with 4 power unless it has a drastic drawback like Jotun Grunt, Greenwheel Liberator and the likes.
Taking the old trusty tribal zoo on a field trip tomorrow. New store, new meta, hopefully a Saturday full of fun modern games! I'll let yall know how it goes.
On another subject, that 4 mana path of wrath instant sweeper from ixalan is going to suck to play against next year.
Update on the event: We had 20 something people, I went 2-0 vs elves, 2-0 vs bg rock, 2-0 vs goblins, and then in the finals match I lost 1-2 to bant spirits. Game one we each went turn one noble, turn two geist hahaha. I won that one. Games two and three I had the turn two geist and he had the untap, cast phantasmal image copying my geist. Pretty funny I lost to my own deck but it was fun none the less. Had him dead to any topdecked version of bolt both of those games.
Taking the old trusty tribal zoo on a field trip tomorrow. New store, new meta, hopefully a Saturday full of fun modern games! I'll let yall know how it goes.
On another subject, that 4 mana path of wrath instant sweeper from ixalan is going to suck to play against next year.
Shesh. Just saw that, been drafting all day. Yeah, thats pretty gross, even with rhonas. Were likely gunna fall for that everytime too. I mean you can hold back creatures incase, but then you miss out on damage. Thats a lose lose.
Rallier is a really good card, been playing it for months but never really dedicated deck slots to really exploit rallier synergies like this guy did.
The package of rally-able permanents both main and side are spicy, but I'm a bit iffy on 3 colorless lands and the main deck mindcensor. Will take it out for a spin soon.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Wins were vs jund, burn, 8rack, eldrazitron, revolt zoo, junk, infect. Lost to kci and jund.
Tribal Zoo video series
It would explain Big Zoo's most recent finish (with a list that I think is not very good, although I do like Elspeth, Knight-Errant against CoCo decks). Grixis wasn't as big in Baltimore, where I made day 2 and then had a pitiful finish -- largely getting ranched by aggressive affinity draws, storm, and Counters CoCo -- but since it's emergence as top dog, I'd say that Big Zoo is an excellent predator.
You go just as tall as they do and your removal forces then to use their mana inefficiently to hold up Stubborn Denial -- all the while you can develop your board and force them into situations where their discard is bad, their counters are bad, they're flooding out, and they need a Terminate.
Anyway, I do have an updated list but it mostly involves changes to the SB. I think that's where my list was weakest. I needed something like Kataki or Ancient Grudge, to keep Affinity off of their Master of Etherium draws -- which where the ones I lost to.
The 11th place list only had one Eidolon of Rhetoric. I think that's probably wrong, depending on storms share of the room. Thalia doesn't do what she used to do against storm (constrict their mana) since they now have 8 Electromancer effects. I'd play 2x or a 1x Eidolon 1x Ethersworn Canonistsplit -- although Eidolon is much better vs. snapcaster control decks.
I like Fiery Justice. It's not as good vs. certain draws from coco but it deals with go-wide regardless. It's a 3 mana answer to a Tasigur or a Gurmag -- which interestingly also turns off their DS but I'm not sure I want a 3 mana removal spell in that MU. After playing events with Bonfire, a card I've always despised but felt I needed recently due to Counters CoCo, I'm ready to make the switch back from this miracle nonsense. I played Justice for a bit but was finding it was redundant with Declaration in Stone. I can probably cut one of those and get myself on 1x Dec.
I'm MDing Avens. It may seem like a lot but the card just is flexible and evasive. Bolt isn't really good right now so it's not outrageous to play. It snags all the pieces it normally did and even can keep your DS opponent from dealing an extra 2 to themselves.
I'm all on 2x Tracker and not 1x. If your opponent lets you untap they usually lose (unless they're combo).
Play 3x Blood Moon -- it's the best chance you have in a lot of MUs and ppl forget about it in 3 color midrange decks. Snow-Covered Mountain? They're expecting it. Horizon Canopy? Nope.
I'm just going to play 2x Harsh Mentor in the board. It could be terrible but I need to find out. Our counters coco MU is a joke. And one that's not funny for us.
Anyway, here's the 75:
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Loxodon Smiter
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Collected Company
4x Windswept Heath
4x Arid Mesa
2x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Forest
1x Plains
2x Stony Silence
3x Blood Moon
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Harsh Mentor
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Personally I've opted to go with Kozilek's Return with the rise of Counters CoCo, you really want to be able to react with them at instant speed and it pretty much kills everything in their deck.
What matchups are you boarding Blood Moon in against? The only matchup I used to board it in against was Scapeshift, so I've essentially removed it from my boarding strategy, because I'd much rather use other options in the Tron/Eldrazi matchups and don't need it against 3c midrange decks where I can just go grindier. With the speed of the format I've cut tracker because it's too slow and am testing a MD Lavamancer in the list.
Here's where I'm at right now:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer
//spells 12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Domri Rade
3 Collected Company
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Sigarda, host of herons
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Stony Silence
1 Ancient Grudge
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
I board it in vs. Eldrazi Tron and regular tron. Neither is particularly good at beating it. Sometimes they can stick a collar and Walking Ballista underneath but but in most cases they end up with a hand full of mana inefficient cards -- which they can play since they have 2 wastes and can easily Map to -- they're just forced to play on curve with inefficient beaters.
I generally dislike Kozilek's Return since it is somewhat of a mana development battle though I understand it's application. I prefer trying to kill a few things and push past their defenses. Harsh Mentor forces their hand in finding removal, which they sorely lack, which lets your Knight have a turn or two unhindered. We probably take very different approaches to the MU.
I get your original complaint about Tracker but then I also see you're playing a Domri Rade, which is somewhat contradictory to me.
I think Smiter is long the crappiest card in Naya zoo. It's wording is rarely relevant, it's smaller than DS, Gurmag, Tasigur, can't interact with affinities fliers, coco's combo... the list goes on. I play Smiter because it's the most efficient way to play a 3 drop idiot and get your opponent dead.
I've also been long anti-Voice of Resurgence. It's good in a Fatal Push world but bad against threats. It also hits like a wuss. We likely have different playstyles.
3x Scooze is a lot of Scooze.
I agree about Smiter, his time to shine is definitely in a land full of bolts and b/u decks. He's great when it's tough to stick creatures to the board and offers great p/t to boot, but it may be correct to trim 1-2 for Trackers.
Domri is a beast in almost every matchup. He's the 5th path to exile and 4th company. Voice is also great for reasons you say Moon is, he makes any interactive deck play on your terms. Scooze was a 2of but now 3 because of the uptick in dredge, witness, and snapcasters. We probably do have different play styles that reflect in our selections.
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
Although based off these new leaks, looks like the dinosaurs in a year from now are naya colored! Maybe well get the beef we sorely need.
Although based off these new leaks, looks like the dinosaurs in a year from now are naya colored! Maybe well get the beef we sorely need to make E1 and Rhonas really good.
Although based off these new leaks, looks like the dinosaurs in a year from now are naya colored! Maybe well get the beef we sorely need to make E1 and Rhonas really good.
Can't fetch basics and t2 him off a t1 Hierarch.
One of the reasons that I'm at least lukewarm to Loxodon Smiter is that he's a brick wall vs. a deck like Burn and you don't have to fetch + shock to get him into play early.
Zoo has always sorta had this weird Utlity vs game endingness scale in its 3 cmcs. Knight, smitter stand on the top of the others by virtue of not needing work to do its thing. Wooly kinda needs trample and more butt, Anafenza, the Foremost, Geist of St Traft, Doran, the Siege Towerare all off color, and Rhonas the Indomitable has a restriction, which to date the pool doesnt just support a turn 3 play and work of him.
Id wager Rhonas will be the future of these deck in a few years, once they keep doing these goyf like pushes on 2 drops we've seen.
We haven't had a Goyf type card since goyf. And I think they learned their lesson that they can't make a 2cmc creature with 4 power unless it has a drastic drawback like Jotun Grunt, Greenwheel Liberator and the likes.
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
On another subject, that 4 mana path of wrath instant sweeper from ixalan is going to suck to play against next year.
Update on the event: We had 20 something people, I went 2-0 vs elves, 2-0 vs bg rock, 2-0 vs goblins, and then in the finals match I lost 1-2 to bant spirits. Game one we each went turn one noble, turn two geist hahaha. I won that one. Games two and three I had the turn two geist and he had the untap, cast phantasmal image copying my geist. Pretty funny I lost to my own deck but it was fun none the less. Had him dead to any topdecked version of bolt both of those games.
Tribal Zoo video series
Shesh. Just saw that, been drafting all day. Yeah, thats pretty gross, even with rhonas. Were likely gunna fall for that everytime too. I mean you can hold back creatures incase, but then you miss out on damage. Thats a lose lose.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Collected Company
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
60 Cards
2 Blood Moon
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tormod's Crypt
Rallier is a really good card, been playing it for months but never really dedicated deck slots to really exploit rallier synergies like this guy did.
The package of rally-able permanents both main and side are spicy, but I'm a bit iffy on 3 colorless lands and the main deck mindcensor. Will take it out for a spin soon.
His list looks like it's better against counters company since it leaves removal in play and doesn't have to hold mana up.
Naya Zoo has been, across the board, fairly decent vs. Grixis DS -- so he doesn't really need a ton of tech there.