So i played through a couple leagues with the deck I posted earlier and it felt very underwhelming on a fundamental level. It just feels like 1 mana 3/3's are just too far below rate in modern now. I mean we are jumping through some hoops to make our 1 mana 3/3's online when other decks put the same effort or less into getting 0 mana 4/4's or 1 mana 5/5's. I have seen the bushwhacker zoo decks with pelt collector and too me they are a worse all in aggro deck compared to hollow one or bridge vine and less consistent than burn. Im gonna tweak and run it through some more games but I feel that barring getting a bunch of upgrades like UW control did recently, Zoo will continue to not be competitively viable we are just too fair
Its not genericly powerful. Its the kind of creature that for it to be powerful its going to need to be in the right kind of list. Its more likely that Knight of Autumn fits a natural big zoo list than it is for Pelt Collector to just naturally fit a zoo list.
This said, I do think he is powerful and has capability. I just don't know how many adjustments and how much focus its going to take on making him good it will take and if said list will be good enough or not.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It's slow and rebuys nacatls and other, slightly smaller, idiots -- maybe Death's Shadow builds are interested in something like that but it's been legal as long as DS has been played in Modern and hasn't really seen any use there.
I was trying to avoid going down the bushwhacker route. I mentioned the reasoning in my other post " I have seen the bushwhacker zoo decks with pelt collector and too me they are a worse all in aggro deck compared to hollow one or bridge vine and less consistent than burn"
EDIT: That is, assuming they use hierarch. I assumed they did because BBE is 4 cmc, but looking at what I could find some brews do and some don't. Even if it's fine not to use mana dorks though, I'd still like a more current and defined example then what I can find through google
I would not recommend playing big zoo without Hierach.
If I wanted to play Utopia Sprawl, I'd look to other sprawl decks -- which occasionally splash white for sideboard cards or Path to Exile.
Is it possible to play it without tarmogoyf instead? I assumed it would be easier to replace Heirarch, but if I can't replace either then it's likely I'll never have the budget to play zoo in general. (I wasn't talking about sprawl because I wanted to play it- I was talking about it because I believed it to be the best replacement for heirarch).
The best budget zoo is small zoo. The best budget midrange zoo is like tier 18 or something.
Well, this is just a bad match up. I've beaten GBx decks before, but you need to be pretty lucky. Not much to say other than goyfs, scavenging ooze, and the variety of control leave us in a terrible position if we can't close the game before turn 4.
G Tron 2 - 0
I was unsure about his match up but I had a good feeling. Turns out tron is really advantageous for us, even if they can assemble tron they have no way of stopping an army of animals from battering their face. Game two he played Spellskite, but unfortunately he used to block goblin guide allowing me to bolt it out of the way for the rest of the game.
WU Control 2 - 0
Again I had high hopes for this match up, although I won both games it felt very tense both times. Game one he resolved a terminus and multiple paths into snap casters to clear the board, I had him at one health. Top decked a goblin guide, gets countered. Top decked a bolt, gets countered. Top decked a Bushwhacker and he couldn't remove it.
Game two was similar, many paths and snapcasters let him two for one some of my creatures. The upside of path however is it fetches me extra lands, allowing me to play devastating summons for 3 and still keep some land in case I top decked anything else.
Thoughts
Overall I'm having a lot of fun with this deck, it's fast and allows for explosive turns that almost win the game on the spot, although the vexing devil combo is not happening nearly as often as I would like. My favorite plays are casting Devastating Summons and Reckless Bushwhacker on the same turn or any combination of Burning-Tree Emissary.
Many games feel like a lottery of match-ups, where games are very one-sided. I'm more used to slower decks with more even match-ups I guess.
I'm not really impressed with Experiment One, most of the time that's the card to side out. I feel the regenerate cause is somewhat less useful when I'm planning on going wide rather than any kind of grind. I'm not sure what I would replace it with though.
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Decks - Modern Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
Okay Zoo nerds, it's been a while since I've posted because I've been waiting for Assassin's Trophy to throw in my list. It's been absolutely amazing so far. I've gone 8-3 in the last three tournaments. I took my old list and essentially and made the following changes: -2 Helix, -1 Path for +3 Assassin's Trophy. The full list is below:
Regardless of what happens, only one deck functions in this MU typically. His deck didn't.
0-2 4c Thopter Foundry
Dude kept on topdecking his way out it -- ripping damnations and assembling the combo on turn 4 through discard. I flood out both games.
2-1 Boggles.
This is an oddly interactive MU. I had a Spellskite game 3 and it was lights out.
2-0 Grixis Control. Should be a bad MU. I crushed him. Dude didn't even have a shot. Their cantips just prove too clunky. They need to use their mana proactively every turn.
1-2 Green Tron. I thought this should be an easy MU. I win game 1 and then super flood games 2 and 3. I start both games on 6 with one land. Then I just cantrip into lands and die on turn 6 with 3 lands in my hand both games.
Deck is fine.
It can't really deal with flood at all. Not sure how to address that. I had 5 lost games on the day. 4 of them I aggressively flooded in the midgame when you need to not be shuffling 3 lands back and forth.
I would replace experiment one with hidden herbalist, and kird ape with better death touch kird ape narnam renegade.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
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Decks - Modern Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
I would replace experiment one with hidden herbalist, and kird ape with better death touch kird ape narnam renegade.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
Late game they're both crap, so go all in for the early game.
I would replace experiment one with hidden herbalist, and kird ape with better death touch kird ape narnam renegade.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
Late game they're both crap, so go all in for the early game.
@Soot: I agree with the changes mentioned, though personally i would run a non zero amount of Ghor-Clan Rampager. This card closes games in combat and late-game, if you would get to 4 mana, it doubles up on Pelt Collector.
I would replace experiment one with hidden herbalist, and kird ape with better death touch kird ape narnam renegade.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
Late game they're both crap, so go all in for the early game.
If you're blocking with this deck, you're most likely going to lose anyway so it literally doesn't matter if Narnam Renegade is slightly less crap than kird ape in a specific late game scenario.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I would replace experiment one with hidden herbalist, and kird ape with better death touch kird ape narnam renegade.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
Late game they're both crap, so go all in for the early game.
If you're blocking with this deck, you're most likely going to lose anyway so it literally doesn't matter if Narnam Renegade is slightly less crap than kird ape in a specific late game scenario.
While this statement is true in most situations, a non hasty, well timed Narnam Renegade can buy you that one turn where you can break boardstalls. Whereas Kird Ape would have just died without taking anyting with it.
Also, i would attack my 1/2 deathtouch creature in a wall of big blockers and take one for the team rather than play Kird Ape and be unable to do anything with it.
What exactly are we wrong about? They're both crap late, which was the initial point being made. Just because one is slightly less crap doesn't take away from the fact that they're both crap.
Did you completely miss the point or are you just being pedantic for the sake of it?
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Not at all. No need to get upset about it. Please note the smilies.
It was the original poster of the decklist who needed some convincing on the matter Narnam Renegade vs Kird Ape and his concerns were about late game value.
Just putting the matter off with "both are bad lategame" (since the deck has very poor lategame anyways, and anything apart from Bolt, Command or Rampager of the top is bad), is not really helping his understanding of the two cards. So i tried to make a constructive point about the matter and be helpful.
Ran this list last night for modern monday at my lgs. Went 4-0 beating Abzan, Izzet Wizards, Humans, and Burn
The deck felt pretty good, with the Buglers putting in a lot of work. I feel like this version of the deck is a little better than traditional big zoo in the more controlling or more aggressive matchups, but suffers against the big mana decks because it is not as fast and decks that run walking ballista like tron and hardened scales affinity can roll over most of you creatures because of low toughness. Combo feels about the same, but the main deck Thalias do help. The interaction between Aurelia and Knight of the reliquary is quite good because it allows you to give the knight vigilance and swing then tap it to get your kessig wolf run and trample over as well. Knight of autumn was great as well, it really helped in the burn and izzet wizards match, while still feeling great against humans. Still probably needs a lot of work, and I am not sure about the Figures, they felt pretty meh most of the time.
I got another 3-1 last FNM with Dark Zoo. I beat a Jeskai/Fevered Visions deck, UR Thing in the Ice, and Mardu Pyromancer. Lost to Titanshift, because well I didn't realize anyone would play it so I skimmed down to only 1 Alpine Moon in the board. Assassin's Trophy, while making the mana very clunky, has been an absolute beast in the deck. Here's the list I've been running:
FWIW, those playing Big Zoo right now -- Big Zoo is very very good against Dredge. Throw a Gaddock Teeg or two in the sideboard and suddenly they're up a creek. MD Tarmogoyf, Scooze, and Knight of the Reliquary and they have a problem game 1. I think you're very favored, just make sure you do the Creeping Chill math before you get too aggressive.
I'd much rather dedicate slots in my SB to big mana decks than to dredge. Incidental hate like Gaddock Teeg and Declaration in Stone should do the trick. Sometimes they'll go underneath you but I think you have to take your lumps there -- the deck doesn't do it all that often.
I still really like Remorseful Cleric, especially if you're also fighting KCI, Snapcaster decks, and storm.
I still don't have a strong SB worked out. I hate playing Gaddock Teeg and 4cmc walkers in the same deck but maybe they're necessary. It makes me wonder if History of Benalia would just be as effective against UW as Gideon, despite being obviously less powerful.
Its not genericly powerful. Its the kind of creature that for it to be powerful its going to need to be in the right kind of list. Its more likely that Knight of Autumn fits a natural big zoo list than it is for Pelt Collector to just naturally fit a zoo list.
This said, I do think he is powerful and has capability. I just don't know how many adjustments and how much focus its going to take on making him good it will take and if said list will be good enough or not.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I wouldn't bother.
It's slow and rebuys nacatls and other, slightly smaller, idiots -- maybe Death's Shadow builds are interested in something like that but it's been legal as long as DS has been played in Modern and hasn't really seen any use there.
The best budget zoo is small zoo. The best budget midrange zoo is like tier 18 or something.
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4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (32)
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Experiment One
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Pelt Collector
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Atarka's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (1)
1 Devastating Summons
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Remorseful Cleric
2 Alpine Moon
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Path to Exile
1 Forked Bolt
FNM Report
Overall 2 - 1
Jund 1 - 2
Well, this is just a bad match up. I've beaten GBx decks before, but you need to be pretty lucky. Not much to say other than goyfs, scavenging ooze, and the variety of control leave us in a terrible position if we can't close the game before turn 4.
G Tron 2 - 0
I was unsure about his match up but I had a good feeling. Turns out tron is really advantageous for us, even if they can assemble tron they have no way of stopping an army of animals from battering their face. Game two he played Spellskite, but unfortunately he used to block goblin guide allowing me to bolt it out of the way for the rest of the game.
WU Control 2 - 0
Again I had high hopes for this match up, although I won both games it felt very tense both times. Game one he resolved a terminus and multiple paths into snap casters to clear the board, I had him at one health. Top decked a goblin guide, gets countered. Top decked a bolt, gets countered. Top decked a Bushwhacker and he couldn't remove it.
Game two was similar, many paths and snapcasters let him two for one some of my creatures. The upside of path however is it fetches me extra lands, allowing me to play devastating summons for 3 and still keep some land in case I top decked anything else.
Thoughts
Overall I'm having a lot of fun with this deck, it's fast and allows for explosive turns that almost win the game on the spot, although the vexing devil combo is not happening nearly as often as I would like. My favorite plays are casting Devastating Summons and Reckless Bushwhacker on the same turn or any combination of Burning-Tree Emissary.
Many games feel like a lottery of match-ups, where games are very one-sided. I'm more used to slower decks with more even match-ups I guess.
I'm not really impressed with Experiment One, most of the time that's the card to side out. I feel the regenerate cause is somewhat less useful when I'm planning on going wide rather than any kind of grind. I'm not sure what I would replace it with though.
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Path to Exile
2 Domri Rade
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
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What does your SB look like?
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Death's Shadow
3x Tarmogoyf
4x Street Wraith
3x Thoughtseize
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Temur Battle Rage
4x Mutagenic Growth
3x Become Immense
1x Apostle's Blessing
1x Dismember
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Blood Crypt
I played this at a 1k. Went 3-2. It's fine.
2-0 Bridgevine
Regardless of what happens, only one deck functions in this MU typically. His deck didn't.
0-2 4c Thopter Foundry
Dude kept on topdecking his way out it -- ripping damnations and assembling the combo on turn 4 through discard. I flood out both games.
2-1 Boggles.
This is an oddly interactive MU. I had a Spellskite game 3 and it was lights out.
2-0 Grixis Control. Should be a bad MU. I crushed him. Dude didn't even have a shot. Their cantips just prove too clunky. They need to use their mana proactively every turn.
1-2 Green Tron. I thought this should be an easy MU. I win game 1 and then super flood games 2 and 3. I start both games on 6 with one land. Then I just cantrip into lands and die on turn 6 with 3 lands in my hand both games.
Deck is fine.
It can't really deal with flood at all. Not sure how to address that. I had 5 lost games on the day. 4 of them I aggressively flooded in the midgame when you need to not be shuffling 3 lands back and forth.
I've thought about narnam renegade, my concern then is that you lose some of the synergy from vexing devil. Later game a top decked kird ape is still a 2/3 but a narnam renegade will be a 1/1.
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
Late game they're both crap, so go all in for the early game.
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Wrong! Sorry
Lategame Narnam Renegade blocks, and kills!, any big dumb thing like Tarmogoyf, Hollow One, Gurmag Angler. just to name a few.
(Good)Eldrazi players prioritize removal and disruption on Narnam Renegade.
@Soot: I agree with the changes mentioned, though personally i would run a non zero amount of Ghor-Clan Rampager. This card closes games in combat and late-game, if you would get to 4 mana, it doubles up on Pelt Collector.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
If you're blocking with this deck, you're most likely going to lose anyway so it literally doesn't matter if Narnam Renegade is slightly less crap than kird ape in a specific late game scenario.
While this statement is true in most situations, a non hasty, well timed Narnam Renegade can buy you that one turn where you can break boardstalls. Whereas Kird Ape would have just died without taking anyting with it.
Also, i would attack my 1/2 deathtouch creature in a wall of big blockers and take one for the team rather than play Kird Ape and be unable to do anything with it.
So… Still wrong.
Narnam Renegade > Kird Ape
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Did you completely miss the point or are you just being pedantic for the sake of it?
It was the original poster of the decklist who needed some convincing on the matter Narnam Renegade vs Kird Ape and his concerns were about late game value.
Just putting the matter off with "both are bad lategame" (since the deck has very poor lategame anyways, and anything apart from Bolt, Command or Rampager of the top is bad), is not really helping his understanding of the two cards. So i tried to make a constructive point about the matter and be helpful.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Mountain
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Figure of Destiny
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aurelia, Exemplar of Justice
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Militia Bugler
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Lightning Helix
2 Rest in Peace
2 Knight of Autumn
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Alpine Moon
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
Ran this list last night for modern monday at my lgs. Went 4-0 beating Abzan, Izzet Wizards, Humans, and Burn
The deck felt pretty good, with the Buglers putting in a lot of work. I feel like this version of the deck is a little better than traditional big zoo in the more controlling or more aggressive matchups, but suffers against the big mana decks because it is not as fast and decks that run walking ballista like tron and hardened scales affinity can roll over most of you creatures because of low toughness. Combo feels about the same, but the main deck Thalias do help. The interaction between Aurelia and Knight of the reliquary is quite good because it allows you to give the knight vigilance and swing then tap it to get your kessig wolf run and trample over as well. Knight of autumn was great as well, it really helped in the burn and izzet wizards match, while still feeling great against humans. Still probably needs a lot of work, and I am not sure about the Figures, they felt pretty meh most of the time.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Path to Exile
2 Domri Rade
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Remorseful Cleric
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Collective Brutality
2 Stony Silence
1 Alpine Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
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I'd much rather dedicate slots in my SB to big mana decks than to dredge. Incidental hate like Gaddock Teeg and Declaration in Stone should do the trick. Sometimes they'll go underneath you but I think you have to take your lumps there -- the deck doesn't do it all that often.
I still really like Remorseful Cleric, especially if you're also fighting KCI, Snapcaster decks, and storm.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of Autumn
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (22)
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Arid Mesa
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Remorseful Cleric
2 Kraul Harpooner
1 Stony Silence
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Damping Sphere
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I've been thinking a lot about Naya again.
I still don't have a strong SB worked out. I hate playing Gaddock Teeg and 4cmc walkers in the same deck but maybe they're necessary. It makes me wonder if History of Benalia would just be as effective against UW as Gideon, despite being obviously less powerful.