I guess he competes with Elspeth. But i think he has uses vs removal heavy decks like Grixis and GBx.
I'm running Rallier and the recursion is very strong in those matches. Ajani can double up on this while also growing your beasts when needed. The ultimate is doors shut vs grounded decks.
with bloodbraid elf OR collected company, wouldn't you rather run 4x mantis rider or 4x reflector mage instead of the spell quellers? spell queller's ability can be very underwhelming if cascaded/coco'd into.
So the point is to see if it helps give game against bad matchups, while probably only marginally making the good smiter matchups a little bit worse. Yes CoCo makes more sense with Queller, but BBE makes more sense with the other 71 cards, especially since I rely on a lot of non-creature permanents out of the board.
Mantis Rider/Reflector Mage serve a completely different use, although it was fun playing Mantis Rider in 5c Tribal Flames zoo. BBE -> Mantis Rider = GGGGGG
In my own personal list, there were a few cards I definitely wanted to consider, but I felt that ended up putitng the total CMC too high. One card I did include was Huntmaster of the Fells, more because it's one of my favorite cards. If I were to decide to make everything cascade from BBE, Kitchen Finks seems like a more likely candidate. That said, my current list is as stands (given a few cards that can be resolved to flex slots.)
Okok I see, nothing wrong with a little bit of testing! I'd love to know it ends up feeling for you. I'm currently on the 5c Tribal build with Mantis Rider and CANNOT wait to cascade into him, and of course burn face for 5 this FNM.
So far, that 3cmc spot for me belongs to either 4x Mantis Rider in the Tribal Flames version because blue is easy to splash with the Noble Hierarchs, or 4x Tireless Trackers/4x KotR for all the value in the non-Tribal Flames version. in the non-Tribal Flames version, I also try with and without BBE replacing her with some walkers and a strombreath, which gives me some more endgame.
Mantis Rider is one of my favorite cards and I love that that Tribal Flames grows Tarmogoyf so I'll likely stick to this for a while.
Does my mana base need some tweaking? I have two black sources since land destruction seems relevant... but is it worth it? Does a Steam Vents fit better somewhere?
And the 2x Tireless Tracker can flex to either Rabblemasters or Geists of St. Traft. What's another faster 3-drop?
The flex spot most likely being Loxodon Smiter? Can replace him x3 with a mixed toolbox of the cards you mentioned plus maybe Tireless Tracker/Thalia, Heretic Cathar/Kitchen Finks. The possibilities are almost endless! Although Mindcensor can hurt you a little bit..
I really like the Rhonas though. Kessig Wolf Run shouldn't be only way to ensure damage getting in.
My flex slots are due to uncertainties regarding Any card (except BBE) over 4 mana and Lightning Helix (since I think just a path and Bolt package can do given enough creature-based life gain.)
Cards and reasons
Kitchen finks Immune to non-path removal first turn, provides life gain for potentially bad match ups Arlin Kord Has a master of the wild-hunt type effect, but is a planeswalker so has more staying power. Aven Mindcensor Flying and stops shennigans Matter Reshaper A weird addition, but is a "BBE number 2" with 3 cmc permanents. Even if it hits a spell or land, that card will just go to the hand providing its own level of card advantage. Plus, I've always enjoyed completely unsuspecting additions to decks such as an Eldrazi in zoo.
Rhonas: Potential to be absolutely insane. 5/5 indestructible death touch for 3 mana. Not only that, but it provides a pump. It has the "cavaet" of needing a 4 power or higher creature to be activated, but with Knight, Nacatl, and Loxodon that should not even be a problem. Selfless Spirit 2/1 is kind of bad since it can be blocked by Mardu's tokens, but flying for 2 mana makes it a lot better. There can be situations where UW sweeps the board or removal is pointed at a creature. Since the deck can be somewhat soft to spot removal, this card COULD potentially solve this problem. The weakest of the mentions, but I brought it up anyway. Tireless TrackerI mean this card has low value but I guess we can try it? Its effect will be doubled with Knight of the Reliquary but it just seems slow. The point of the deck is to provide high value cards with more or less immediate value. It seems hefty to play a 3 cmc creature, have to then play a fetchland, create a token, then pay another 2 mana to sacrifice the token to put a counter on him...no thanks. Gideon of the Trials Yeah, it's not Elspeth or Ajani, but it's a 3 cmc planeswalker cascaded into from BBE. It's more important to consider this if going the Rhonas route, since it is a free, indestructible 4/4 every turn. Its first effect could possibly save face in a few situations. However, I can see where people would say this card is bad.
I can't really think of anything worth it beyond these. The only other 4 cmc card I would ever even consider is Thrun, the Last Troll.
Edit: I forgot Collected Company was a thing. Actually, my first build involved this card since I think it's actually better than Bloodbraid Elf for a lot of reasons. Has anyone experimented with it directly?
My flex slots are due to uncertainties regarding Any card (except BBE) over 4 mana and Lightning Helix (since I think just a path and Bolt package can do given enough creature-based life gain.)
Cards and reasons
Kitchen finks Immune to non-path removal first turn, provides life gain for potentially bad match ups Arlin Kord Has a master of the wild-hunt type effect, but is a planeswalker so has more staying power. Aven Mindcensor Flying and stops shennigans Matter Reshaper A weird addition, but is a "BBE number 2" with 3 cmc permanents. Even if it hits a spell or land, that card will just go to the hand providing its own level of card advantage. Plus, I've always enjoyed completely unsuspecting additions to decks such as an Eldrazi in zoo.
Rhonas: Potential to be absolutely insane. 5/5 indestructible death touch for 3 mana. Not only that, but it provides a pump. It has the "cavaet" of needing a 4 power or higher creature to be activated, but with Knight, Nacatl, and Loxodon that should not even be a problem. Selfless Spirit 2/1 is kind of bad since it can be blocked by Mardu's tokens, but flying for 2 mana makes it a lot better. There can be situations where UW sweeps the board or removal is pointed at a creature. Since the deck can be somewhat soft to spot removal, this card COULD potentially solve this problem. The weakest of the mentions, but I brought it up anyway. Tireless TrackerI mean this card has low value but I guess we can try it? Its effect will be doubled with Knight of the Reliquary but it just seems slow. The point of the deck is to provide high value cards with more or less immediate value. It seems hefty to play a 3 cmc creature, have to then play a fetchland, create a token, then pay another 2 mana to sacrifice the token to put a counter on him...no thanks. Gideon of the Trials Yeah, it's not Elspeth or Ajani, but it's a 3 cmc planeswalker cascaded into from BBE. It's more important to consider this if going the Rhonas route, since it is a free, indestructible 4/4 every turn. Its first effect could possibly save face in a few situations. However, I can see where people would say this card is bad.
I can't really think of anything worth it beyond these. The only other 4 cmc card I would ever even consider is Thrun, the Last Troll.
Edit: I forgot Collected Company was a thing. Actually, my first build involved this card since I think it's actually better than Bloodbraid Elf for a lot of reasons. Has anyone experimented with it directly?
You should refer to either zulander's or my Naya Zoo lists as about the best frameworks for Naya Zoo in this format.
A lot of the cards that you've suggested have been played ad nauseam in Big Zoo at some point in time. If you do something as simple as use the thread search bar you can find OG Zoo posters like Lantern, Osackpo, zulander, and my thoughts on the cards.
I played Rhonas when Grixis DS was a big deal. I attempted to play a Rhonas/Domri lock. It was bad but I thought it was the best way to answer that meta. I would not bother with the card now. This deck doesn't need more 3cmc conditional big dumb idiots. Rather, when spoilers drop, I'm looking for 2cmc hatebears in GWR.
I suppose you are right. I was getting a bit concerned about my own 3 cmc creature base and thought splitting Knight, Loxodon, Finks and Rhonas was too much. It seems to me Knight and Loxodon were the two that stood out without anything else being as beneficial.
What kind of cards would you be suggesting in the hatebears category?
I suppose you are right. I was getting a bit concerned about my own 3 cmc creature base and thought splitting Knight, Loxodon, Finks and Rhonas was too much. It seems to me Knight and Loxodon were the two that stood out without anything else being as beneficial.
What kind of cards would you be suggesting in the hatebears category?
What decks do you want to beat?
Right now, I don't maindeck any "hatebears" outside of Voice of Resurgence. There's always a variety of hatebear idiots in the board.
Lantern's primer is still up to date. A lot of your general questions can be answered there, on page 1 of this thread.
Hey guys! Sorry haven't posted this week, been a bit hectic with some work. Anyways here's the Queller Zoo list I've been playing this week to a 6-1 record. The only loss was to Affinity because of drawing forest/sacred foundry while having a bunch of lightning helix in hand and no creatures. That was an awkward game lol.
Spell Queller has been great in some matchups, single handedly beating two burn players. Also moving the dromoka's to the main has been great. I've only hit BBE into Queller twice, but never felt like it sucked as much as it sounds like it would.
Hi guys. Looking at getting into modern a little (side format), so looking for something that can randomly steal wins, is decent and not too pricey.
I saw Jeff Hoogland playing a revolt zoo list on stream yesterday and thought that it looked pretty fun. I had a quick look through the thread and didn't find anything on it (primer and a couple of pages back).
I'm running Rallier and the recursion is very strong in those matches. Ajani can double up on this while also growing your beasts when needed. The ultimate is doors shut vs grounded decks.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
New ajani is ok. He's got a lot to compete with and isn't more aggressive than elspeth and doesnt double as removal like chandra tod or vengeant.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Path to Exile
1 Domri Rade
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
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with bloodbraid elf OR collected company, wouldn't you rather run 4x mantis rider or 4x reflector mage instead of the spell quellers? spell queller's ability can be very underwhelming if cascaded/coco'd into.
Mantis Rider/Reflector Mage serve a completely different use, although it was fun playing Mantis Rider in 5c Tribal Flames zoo. BBE -> Mantis Rider = GGGGGG
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4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
Lands:
22 Lands
Flex slots resolve to Aven Mindcensor Arlin Kord and Domri Rade
So far, that 3cmc spot for me belongs to either 4x Mantis Rider in the Tribal Flames version because blue is easy to splash with the Noble Hierarchs, or 4x Tireless Trackers/4x KotR for all the value in the non-Tribal Flames version. in the non-Tribal Flames version, I also try with and without BBE replacing her with some walkers and a strombreath, which gives me some more endgame.
Mantis Rider is one of my favorite cards and I love that that Tribal Flames grows Tarmogoyf so I'll likely stick to this for a while.
Here's my list:
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mantis Rider
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Wild Nacatl
-SPELLS (13)
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tribal Flames
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
-LANDS (23)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Arid Mesa
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Damping Sphere
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Worship
1 Stony Silence
3 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Natural State
Does my mana base need some tweaking? I have two black sources since land destruction seems relevant... but is it worth it? Does a Steam Vents fit better somewhere?
And the 2x Tireless Tracker can flex to either Rabblemasters or Geists of St. Traft. What's another faster 3-drop?
I really like the Rhonas though. Kessig Wolf Run shouldn't be only way to ensure damage getting in.
My flex slots are due to uncertainties regarding Any card (except BBE) over 4 mana and Lightning Helix (since I think just a path and Bolt package can do given enough creature-based life gain.)
Cards and reasons
Kitchen finks Immune to non-path removal first turn, provides life gain for potentially bad match ups
Arlin Kord Has a master of the wild-hunt type effect, but is a planeswalker so has more staying power.
Aven Mindcensor Flying and stops shennigans
Matter Reshaper A weird addition, but is a "BBE number 2" with 3 cmc permanents. Even if it hits a spell or land, that card will just go to the hand providing its own level of card advantage. Plus, I've always enjoyed completely unsuspecting additions to decks such as an Eldrazi in zoo.
Rhonas: Potential to be absolutely insane. 5/5 indestructible death touch for 3 mana. Not only that, but it provides a pump. It has the "cavaet" of needing a 4 power or higher creature to be activated, but with Knight, Nacatl, and Loxodon that should not even be a problem.
Selfless Spirit 2/1 is kind of bad since it can be blocked by Mardu's tokens, but flying for 2 mana makes it a lot better. There can be situations where UW sweeps the board or removal is pointed at a creature. Since the deck can be somewhat soft to spot removal, this card COULD potentially solve this problem. The weakest of the mentions, but I brought it up anyway.
Tireless TrackerI mean this card has low value but I guess we can try it? Its effect will be doubled with Knight of the Reliquary but it just seems slow. The point of the deck is to provide high value cards with more or less immediate value. It seems hefty to play a 3 cmc creature, have to then play a fetchland, create a token, then pay another 2 mana to sacrifice the token to put a counter on him...no thanks.
Gideon of the Trials Yeah, it's not Elspeth or Ajani, but it's a 3 cmc planeswalker cascaded into from BBE. It's more important to consider this if going the Rhonas route, since it is a free, indestructible 4/4 every turn. Its first effect could possibly save face in a few situations. However, I can see where people would say this card is bad.
I can't really think of anything worth it beyond these. The only other 4 cmc card I would ever even consider is Thrun, the Last Troll.
Edit: I forgot Collected Company was a thing. Actually, my first build involved this card since I think it's actually better than Bloodbraid Elf for a lot of reasons. Has anyone experimented with it directly?
You should refer to either zulander's or my Naya Zoo lists as about the best frameworks for Naya Zoo in this format.
A lot of the cards that you've suggested have been played ad nauseam in Big Zoo at some point in time. If you do something as simple as use the thread search bar you can find OG Zoo posters like Lantern, Osackpo, zulander, and my thoughts on the cards.
I played Rhonas when Grixis DS was a big deal. I attempted to play a Rhonas/Domri lock. It was bad but I thought it was the best way to answer that meta. I would not bother with the card now. This deck doesn't need more 3cmc conditional big dumb idiots. Rather, when spoilers drop, I'm looking for 2cmc hatebears in GWR.
__________________________________
Of note, you can play Arlinn Kord but I would not recommend it in a format where the best deck plays 4x Mantis Rider and 3-4x Phantasmal Image.
Remorseful Reverend
These are the two so far that stick out to me.
Remorseful Reverend is the type of card we always wanted instead of RIP.
Seems excellent to bully your opponent in the rare Knight of the Reliquary mirror.
GY strategies aren't prevalent in the current state but it's easy to imagine, in 6 months, that reality.
Edit: Remorseful Reverend is spill-over tech against Snapcaster decks too! : DDDDDDD
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Also Hi everyone.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
What kind of cards would you be suggesting in the hatebears category?
What decks do you want to beat?
Right now, I don't maindeck any "hatebears" outside of Voice of Resurgence. There's always a variety of hatebear idiots in the board.
Lantern's primer is still up to date. A lot of your general questions can be answered there, on page 1 of this thread.
Burn: 3-0
Affinity: 0-1
Esper Death Shadow: 1-0
BW Eldrazi bears: 1-0
Humans: 1-0
Spell Queller has been great in some matchups, single handedly beating two burn players. Also moving the dromoka's to the main has been great. I've only hit BBE into Queller twice, but never felt like it sucked as much as it sounds like it would.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
//disruption
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Domri Rade
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Lightning Helix
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
2 Damping Sphere
1 Grafdigger's Cage
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Idk but I feel like this will be the best one drop zoo creature from m19.
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I saw Jeff Hoogland playing a revolt zoo list on stream yesterday and thought that it looked pretty fun. I had a quick look through the thread and didn't find anything on it (primer and a couple of pages back).
What are peoples thoughts on it?
List for reference
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Hidden Herbalists
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
Land (18)
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Path to Exile
4 Boros Charm
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I'm basically missing goblin guides, goblin bushwacker, 3 nacatl, 3 apes and a couple of sideboard cards (kataki and stoney).
Played this at a tiny tiny modern event in Corning. $30 but less than 16 people so cut to top 4.
I waltzed into first seed and we chopped.
2-0 Coralhelm Company
2-0 Jund
2-1 GR Madcap Experiment
2-0 Merfolk
Everything was on EZ mode. I only dropped a game to Madcap cause he had the nut draw game 1. Wrecked him games 2 and 3.