Yeah 4 Become Immense means no more semi-consistent turn 3 wins, and drawing multiples early hurts a lot I'd wager...
@Kovo: I see, maybe it was just that I had to battle through spellskite turn 2 every single game (except for RDW) that made me feel I was slow, but I guess UG has just as much, if not more trouble with that (no Decays). Well, I hope an event will fire again next week Can't go to this week's event sadly...
Where are you located?
And yes, BUG does offer access to AD, and discard (for combo).
I've been playing the PT lists some, and I really really like the 4 Become Immense. The real reason to play four is that BI plus any other pump spell ends the game. It's obviously not great in multiples, but you pretty much always want one for racing matchups so 4 it is.
If you really don't like it, main three and put the fourth in the sideboard for combo or affinity or something.
The thing is my list has little issue killing turn 3-4. And does okay in longer games. So I still cant see why its worth the risk. BI in the opening hand is a dead card for at least 2-3 turns.
I wouldn't want to deviate from protecting my dudes rather than pumping them up, since 8 of them have evasion anyway in U Infect. My prototype list still has 4 Apostle's Blessing and 4 Vines of Vastwood, and possibly 1-2 Spellskites MD. Even a 1-of Become Immense is something that I'm still not used to, but might have to learn eventually.
The thing is my list has little issue killing turn 3-4. And does okay in longer games. So I still cant see why its worth the risk. BI in the opening hand is a dead card for at least 2-3 turns.
All I'm saying is that it serves purpose - I have noticed the biggest difference after a mulligan or two where you can end up short of needed cards. BI helps a lot because it brings you from needing three pumps to two. Your best draws will likely be unaffected or even slightly worse, but of course Infect doesn't struggle when it draws well.
Give the PT lists a shot, I think you'll like it. I certainly have.
I wouldn't want to deviate from protecting my dudes rather than pumping them up, since 8 of them have evasion anyway in U Infect. My prototype list still has 4 Apostle's Blessing and 4 Vines of Vastwood, and possibly 1-2 Spellskites MD. Even a 1-of Become Immense is something that I'm still not used to, but might have to learn eventually.
My feeling is that if you can't kill (or at least do the vast majority of damage) in one shot it probably doesn't matter if you can protect them anyways. BI just helps you get there in a single attack.
The PT list is 3 days old. Lets give it a shot before we jump to conclusions. Especially since my list has been doing great for me over the past 2 months.
Also, I may be going blond, but BI becomes immensely (yea, I went there) worse in an opening hand after 1-2 mulligans. Or even in the first couple of draws after a 5-6 card starting hand.
The more I analyze the infect games in the PT, the more I want to conclude that BI hurt them more than it helped them.
I saw 2 games in round 15-16 where Finkel or Austin could have won if they had another pump spell other than BI (because they lacked the mana or GY size to cast it).
But again, it needs testing. If a few of you run it, let us know after a few events.
When I was running it as a 1-of, I almost always didnt need it/couldn’t use it when I drew it or had it in my opening hand.
The more I analyze the infect games in the PT, the more I want to conclude that BI hurt them more than it helped them.
I saw 2 games in round 15-16 where Finkel or Austin could have won if they had another pump spell other than BI (because they lacked the mana or GY size to cast it).
But again, it needs testing. If a few of you run it, let us know after a few events.
When I was running it as a 1-of, I almost always didnt need it/couldn’t use it when I drew it or had it in my opening hand.
You're totally right about the list as a whole needing more testing, and it's totally possible that some split of Groundswell and BI is optimal. I have been playing the PT lists the last couple of days and have enjoyed it, but I was playing a BUG list before on MODO and also thought it was great.
Didn't mean to come off as writing off BUG, just was trying to explain where I had found utility in BI.
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
--------------------------
wit that said 99.9% of infect lists are budget mono-green
might of old krosa is a $5-6 card...that is an instant buy for most real tier 1 decks however there is a 15 page argument over whether or not it's necessary because most players are too poor to buy the playset.
this is not tier 1 discussion in a format with LOTV and $200+ tarmogoyf in the format.
even the U/G green lists argue over running misty rainforest because it's too expensive, complain about wooded foothills the $8 cards
nobody here owns a single copy of noble hierarch
i mean cmon this ***** isn't how tier 1 players with a tier 1 deck act
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
--------------------------
wit that said 99.9% of infect lists are budget mono-green
might of old krosa is a $5-6 card...that is an instant buy for most real tier 1 decks however there is a 15 page argument over whether or not it's necessary because most players are too poor to buy the playset.
this is not tier 1 discussion in a format with LOTV and $200+ tarmogoyf in the format.
even the U/G green lists argue over running misty rainforest because it's too expensive, complain about wooded foothills the $8 cards
nobody here owns a single copy of noble hierarch
i mean cmon this ***** isn't how tier 1 players with a tier 1 deck act
infect is a budget/poor people deck
Speak for yourself. I run bug. 8 fetches. And the deck is foiled (yes Noble included). Budget does not mean tier 2, it seems. Welcome to the new modern.
The more I analyze the infect games in the PT, the more I want to conclude that BI hurt them more than it helped them.
I saw 2 games in round 15-16 where Finkel or Austin could have won if they had another pump spell other than BI (because they lacked the mana or GY size to cast it).
But again, it needs testing. If a few of you run it, let us know after a few events.
When I was running it as a 1-of, I almost always didnt need it/couldn’t use it when I drew it or had it in my opening hand.
You're totally right about the list as a whole needing more testing, and it's totally possible that some split of Groundswell and BI is optimal. I have been playing the PT lists the last couple of days and have enjoyed it, but I was playing a BUG list before on MODO and also thought it was great.
Didn't mean to come off as writing off BUG, just was trying to explain where I had found utility in BI.
No worries. Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. All lists need testing
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
Infect is 2% of the MTGO metagame, which alone puts it solidly at tier 2 with Jund, Merfolk, UWR Midrange, etc.
Then it's at 4% of the paper metagame, which makes it the 7th most played paper deck ahead of even UR Twin.
If we look at the day 2 metagame at the PT, it was the third most-played archetype at 7.5%
And finally, if we look at the T8/T16 decks that had the highest score in the Modern portion only, we see Infect appear 3 times. This includes Tyler Hill with 27 constructed points, Finkel with 24 constructed points, and Josh Ravitz also with 24 points. Note that this is not the same as the Overall T8 which definitely included players who were carried by drafts. Seth Manfield, for example, only had 19 constructed points.
All of those factors combine to push Infect into tier 1.
I don't think that I'm ready to run 4 Become Immense. I split 2 and 2 with Groundswell and it seems about right. I'll be at the Baltimore Open with it later this month and I'll post a report after.
Especially strange because of the claim that Finkel Ravitz and Hill were held out by poor constructed records when they went 8-2, 8-2, 9-1, respectively.
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Where are you located?
And yes, BUG does offer access to AD, and discard (for combo).
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
If you really don't like it, main three and put the fourth in the sideboard for combo or affinity or something.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
All I'm saying is that it serves purpose - I have noticed the biggest difference after a mulligan or two where you can end up short of needed cards. BI helps a lot because it brings you from needing three pumps to two. Your best draws will likely be unaffected or even slightly worse, but of course Infect doesn't struggle when it draws well.
Give the PT lists a shot, I think you'll like it. I certainly have.
My feeling is that if you can't kill (or at least do the vast majority of damage) in one shot it probably doesn't matter if you can protect them anyways. BI just helps you get there in a single attack.
Also, I may be going blond, but BI becomes immensely (yea, I went there) worse in an opening hand after 1-2 mulligans. Or even in the first couple of draws after a 5-6 card starting hand.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Woohoo! Bring on the SB hate!
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I saw 2 games in round 15-16 where Finkel or Austin could have won if they had another pump spell other than BI (because they lacked the mana or GY size to cast it).
But again, it needs testing. If a few of you run it, let us know after a few events.
When I was running it as a 1-of, I almost always didnt need it/couldn’t use it when I drew it or had it in my opening hand.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
You're totally right about the list as a whole needing more testing, and it's totally possible that some split of Groundswell and BI is optimal. I have been playing the PT lists the last couple of days and have enjoyed it, but I was playing a BUG list before on MODO and also thought it was great.
Didn't mean to come off as writing off BUG, just was trying to explain where I had found utility in BI.
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
--------------------------
wit that said 99.9% of infect lists are budget mono-green
might of old krosa is a $5-6 card...that is an instant buy for most real tier 1 decks however there is a 15 page argument over whether or not it's necessary because most players are too poor to buy the playset.
this is not tier 1 discussion in a format with LOTV and $200+ tarmogoyf in the format.
even the U/G green lists argue over running misty rainforest because it's too expensive, complain about wooded foothills the $8 cards
nobody here owns a single copy of noble hierarch
i mean cmon this ***** isn't how tier 1 players with a tier 1 deck act
infect is a budget/poor people deck
Speak for yourself. I run bug. 8 fetches. And the deck is foiled (yes Noble included). Budget does not mean tier 2, it seems. Welcome to the new modern.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
No worries. Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. All lists need testing
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Infect is 2% of the MTGO metagame, which alone puts it solidly at tier 2 with Jund, Merfolk, UWR Midrange, etc.
Then it's at 4% of the paper metagame, which makes it the 7th most played paper deck ahead of even UR Twin.
If we look at the day 2 metagame at the PT, it was the third most-played archetype at 7.5%
And finally, if we look at the T8/T16 decks that had the highest score in the Modern portion only, we see Infect appear 3 times. This includes Tyler Hill with 27 constructed points, Finkel with 24 constructed points, and Josh Ravitz also with 24 points. Note that this is not the same as the Overall T8 which definitely included players who were carried by drafts. Seth Manfield, for example, only had 19 constructed points.
All of those factors combine to push Infect into tier 1.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon