For the Chalice of the Void problem I thought about a good old friend Hurkyl's Recall we can get rid of both Spellskite and Chalice and useful against affinty and lantern control, it's certainly a temporary solution but it can be enough for us to kill the next turn, what do you guys think ?
I have been looking at Hurkyl's Recall too. Being able to sweep both Chalice and Spellskite does seem good. I am just trying to decide if a more permanent solution is better or not.
Looking for some advice or ideas. I'm running a pretty stock UG Infect list and do quite well in my local META. Lots of Affinity/Tron and other larger creature based decks. I consistently X-1 which gets me a top 4 finish.
However, I seem to keep running into the same BW Tokens player. The sheer amount of removal and/or Lingering Souls is just back breaking.
No matter how much Vines/Pierce/Apostle's Blessing I hold up, I simply cannot survive or get through.
Anybody else have a similar experience? Any suggestions?
How often should we be mulliganning? Owen Turtenwald recently tweeted that in modern he mulls 50% of the time because there's so little time in modern to draw out of a bad hand.
Hello I just started playing infect as a change up to my lantern control deck. I was wondering what you guys think of my list and if you had any pointers.
An update on what I think is the best 2 mana answer to Chalice of the Void. It's Naturalize. I have come up against a RW Prison deck both online and face to face, which runs Chalice of the Void, Ghostly Prison, and Blood Moon. I was running Tel-Jilad Justice and it really needed to be Naturalize. This match-up is going to be more common now, and I think that if you are going to run a 2 mana answer, then you need it to deal with both artifacts and enchantments. Naturalize is the winner at least from my perspective.
I have also been testing Stonewood Invocation, as both Chalice of the Void and Spellskite don't stop it. Even though it costs 4 mana, it is essentially several spells rolled into one, and has been a great finisher surprisingly! Not sure yet if it will be included in my tourney deck.
I'm partial to Seal of Primordium. You can invest in it up-front, and cash in whenever you truly need it.
It does hit both artifacts and enchantments. They do know it's coming though, which could change what they decide to do in their turn. Although with seal you can invest early and have mana open for later. Either way, the added advantage of hitting enchantments seems very relevant.
Because abrupt decay does work. Dismember does work. Crusader still doesn't suck despite being slightly weaker, but gut shot is a thing now apparently, so good luck with that. But it's not about crusader vs eldrazi, but it lines up better than gelf or b. agent. it's about sideboarding, and UG can't run anything good that's relevant besides what its always run.
So across the 75:
-No abrupt decay
-No dismember
-no darkblast
-no thoughtseize
Just for starters.
The list for good black vs eldrazi is longer than anything blue or green can supply. I mean, Seal of primordium? I just can't get behind suggestions like this.
UG doesn't interact with Eldrazi much on purpose, just kill them. The Bg build is more tempo based and needs to clear the way of blockers and remove problematic cards. UG however, just doesn't care. Swing with unblockable and get in as much poison as fast as you can. Main deck Viridian Corrupter deals with problematic cards like Chalice of the Void and Spellskite. Dismember is still a popular card in the UG build, despite the lack of black mana. But mostly the UG build just wants to race and in the face of an opposing Chalice can still grind out counters with Exalted triggers from Noble Hierarch or Buffs from Wild Defiance.
Please don't try to explain anything, you're just making this worse. I know full well what both decks do and how, i play both. They both do the same thing; they count to 10 as fast as humanly possible. There is no functional difference between the 2 decks beyond the variations to accomplish their goals, which again, are exactly the same. Count to 10 ASAP.
What I'M saying is that UG is worse at counting to 10 than BG. Its worse than BG at sideboarding. It's just plain worse.
BG cuts speed for answers. That is a very large functional difference. UG doesn't care what you resolve most of the time, the object is still kill you. BG however needs to clear the way of blockers. The only removal Ug plays is Twisted image and maybe a singleton Dismember or Viridian Corrupter. BG on the other hand plays Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize & Dismember. The difference in T1 Noble, T2 Blighted Agent with protection is vastly different than T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Plague Stinger. That is the problem with the BG version, sometimes a single well placed blocker loses you the game. BG is much less count to 10 ASAP and is more calculated with well placed killspells.
There is no cut for speed. I don't understand where you are coming up with these responses. BG runs just as many pump spells, and has just as many if not more evasive creatures. If anything, UG durdles more with gitaxian probe (do nothing) and spell pierce (extremely situational). The difference between t1 noble --> t2 crusader is functionally identical to noble into blighted agent in 95% of matches played,except blighted agent dies to everything and crusader is so much harder to answer. The list that others play runs Inquisition over thoughtseize, which is important because thoughtseize should be run over inquisition 100% of the time if it's a choice between the 2, and I feel strongly that it should be in the side, not main.
Therefore, it seems like these responses you keep posting are nonsense. Look at the BG list I posted. The things you are refuting are non existent. I kill on t2/3 slightly less often than a UG list, with the benefit of more staying power and more interaction and way more evasion. The lists i see posted run 6ish non-pump, as does mine. The rest of the list is all business, as is mine. My BG list has more business because it has 4 more creatures than the UG lists, adding more consistency, and the non pump spells durdle or don't do anything sometimes (I'm looking at you spell pierce).
You have yet to state any credible reason why/how UG isn't the sinking boat that BG isn't.
BG cuts speed for answers. That is a very large functional difference. UG doesn't care what you resolve most of the time, the object is still kill you. BG however needs to clear the way of blockers. The only removal Ug plays is Twisted image and maybe a singleton Dismember or Viridian Corrupter. BG on the other hand plays Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize & Dismember. The difference in T1 Noble, T2 Blighted Agent with protection is vastly different than T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Plague Stinger. That is the problem with the BG version, sometimes a single well placed blocker loses you the game. BG is much less count to 10 ASAP and is more calculated with well placed killspells.
+1.
In what meta GB could theoretically do better then GU?
Removal heavy metas where Phyrexian Crusader shines against Lightning Bolt, Path of Exile, and similar spells.
There is no cut for speed. I don't understand where you are coming up with these responses. BG runs just as many pump spells, and has just as many if not more evasive creatures. If anything, UG durdles more with gitaxian probe (do nothing) and spell pierce (extremely situational). The difference between t1 noble --> t2 crusader is functionally identical to noble into blighted agent in 95% of matches played,except blighted agent dies to everything and crusader is so much harder to answer. The list that others play runs Inquisition over thoughtseize, which is important because thoughtseize should be run over inquisition 100% of the time if it's a choice between the 2, and I feel strongly that it should be in the side, not main.
Therefore, it seems like these responses you keep posting are nonsense. Look at the BG list I posted. The things you are refuting are non existent. I kill on t2/3 slightly less often than a UG list, with the benefit of more staying power and more interaction and way more evasion. The lists i see posted run 6ish non-pump, as does mine. The rest of the list is all business, as is mine. My BG list has more business because it has 4 more creatures than the UG lists, adding more consistency, and the non pump spells durdle or don't do anything sometimes (I'm looking at you spell pierce).
You have yet to state any credible reason why/how UG isn't the sinking boat that BG isn't.
BG builds play cards like Abrupt Decay & Thoughtseize main, cards that do not win you the game. Almost every single card in UG does something towards you winning the game. Even Git Probe draws you a card for no mana, and lets you see what removal you need to play around, and feeds become immense. UG cuts cards that actually interact with board state so that they can swing in for the win, hopefully with a protection spell backup. Who needs to deal with Tarmogoyf when you can pump Blighted Agent for the win? BG Plays actual removal that directly interacts with board state. There is a strong fundamental difference in the builds because the UG build is much more glass cannon. It uses every single mana to attempt to kill you. For 3 mana UG can cast 2 pump spells and keep up a protection spell. BG actually cares about the cards you resolve. BG wants to Abrupt Decay your Goyf and then swing, hopefully leaving up protection. On T1, UG wants to play Git Probe, then play Elf if it is safe, Noble if it is not. BG Wants to Thoughtseize and take your problematic cards.
Plague Stinger & Phyrexian Crusader do have evasion, but are not straight up unblockable like Blighted Agent. A single well placed Tarmogoyf can block Crusader and sometimes live to block multiple times. Plague Stinger gets blocked by literally any flyer or reach card. Both cards simple get blocked sometimes, when can be the deciding factor in a game.
BG has more diverse builds as well. I have seen people play different combinations of the removal suite, depending on the expected meta. Some people play hand removal main, some do not. Different combinations of Abrupt Decay, Dismember, Go for the Throat and even a Virulent Wound here or there. The UG List is more tight needing cards like Git Probe to get there.
I don't see how either build could be a sinking ship when the meta isn't even clearly defined yet. The Eldrazi decks performance at the pro tour clearly shows the meta is still evolving after the ban update. Even Tom Ross himself has been switching between the UG & BG builds recently. Both builds have pros and cons. But they are not the same deck. The UG list plays more like a combo deck, needing certain pieces to win. The BG deck plays like a Aggro/Tempo build, building pressure and removing problematic cards from the board. Sure, you can replace the blighted agent with plague stinger and just call the deck BG, but it isn't the best idea. BUG Infect isn't a thing anymore for a reason.
Eldrazi: couldn't care less for phyrexian crusader, and can't handle well blighted agent.
affinity: see above.
RDW: BG and UG infect try to race, but UG have better SB against it.
Zoo: maybe the only MU where BG have a better chances. post SB maybe same chances.
BGx: spell pierce shines against lili, pulse etc, and so do blighted agent.
Tron: and good MU to BG and UG.
against living death and reanimator pierce and dispel also shine.
Can't really see how GB is in a better position.
Also, stating that casting t1 noble into t2 crusader is better than t1 noble into t2 blighted agent with counter or vines/ apostle's blessing ready to be cast is lying to yourself.
-So what is eldrazi doing against inkmoth/plague stinger again? Focusing on one dude when i have 12 others is foolishness. Don't do this anymore.
-All i see here is UG crying about the burn matchup. The sb is NOT better, and t2 crusader vs burn is lights out much of the time. There is NO equivalent in the UG list, just like there's no equivalent for vampiric link.
Don't bring this matchup up again please, it's disingenuous.
-BGx abrupt decay dismember and thoughtseize from the side do loads of work. But i have a hard time believing your matchup is anything but abysmal vs Jund and Abzan.
-Living death isn't a thing, i don't know why you brought it up.
-I NEVER SAID it was better, i said, 95% of the time a t2 crusader is FUNCTIONALLY EQUIVALENT to a t2 b.agent, because previously, before our new eldrazi overlords took up camp, wth was most decks to do about a t2 crusader? terminate? path? bolt? Electrolyze? the whole point was that b agent needs protection whereas most days crusader doesn't. and in the same matchups where crusader needs protecting, so does all of the UG list. So stop tying to get all upset because I'm saying things you don't necessarily want to hear.
So again, if you can speak from a non-delusional point, where are all these supposed edges? Because again, I've played infect in all its iterations and still do from time to time. I know the lists, i PLAY BOTH lists. the UG lists are going under, and you're here trying (and failing) to cherry pick what you think might be bad match ups when the reality is you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you come in here attempting to lecture me poorly about things you have no clue. Because if you did, you wouldn't have said half the things you said.
As a U/G Infect player, I have never lost a sanctioned match against burn also I think that guy meant Living End.
I know, it still isn't a thing tho.I mean, i suppose the deck is ok, but it sees practically zero play. I'm not going to get all worked up over a practically fictional matchup when the eldrazi are everywhere now, yanno?
Hi CmdrSlayer! Have you really never lost to Burn/RDW? I feel it is a horrible match-up for UG Infect. So much point removal and Eidolon just almost wins by itself. Can I see your List please? TIA
"As a U/G Infect player, I have never lost a sanctioned match against burn also I think that guy meant Living End."
If you are 100% committed to building Infect, buy the most expensive cards first.
If you aren't sure, you need to figure out a plan B in terms of either decks you'd like to play or in terms of how easy the cards are to trade out. Nobles are played in more decks than Inkmoths, so I'd probably start with Nobles.
UG has a tough matchup against Burn. But it isn't unwinnable. Spell Pierce, Leyline of Sanctity & Nature's Claim out of the side do tons of work post board. The matchup is very skill testing because you have to weight how much life for things like Apostle's Blessing, Git Probe & Mutagenic Growth, vs how much Burn you think they have.
I'm considering cutting two Apostle's Blessing because it is becoming more and more useless every week. Any thoughts on replacements? I'm considering Slip Through Space or possibly Distortion Strike or just mainboarding two Twisted Image. My list for reference -
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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Looking for some advice or ideas. I'm running a pretty stock UG Infect list and do quite well in my local META. Lots of Affinity/Tron and other larger creature based decks. I consistently X-1 which gets me a top 4 finish.
However, I seem to keep running into the same BW Tokens player. The sheer amount of removal and/or Lingering Souls is just back breaking.
No matter how much Vines/Pierce/Apostle's Blessing I hold up, I simply cannot survive or get through.
Anybody else have a similar experience? Any suggestions?
4 glistener elf
4 noble hierarch
4 blighted agent
2 spellskite
1 viridian corrupter
spells : 25
4 gitaxian probe
1 groundswell
4 might of old krosa
3 mutagenic growth
1 slip through space
2 spell pierce
4 vines of vastwood
2 apostle's blessing
3 become immense
1 wild defiance
2 breeding pool
3 forest
4 inkmoth nexus
2 pendelhaven
1 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
1 dryad arbor
2 dispel
3 nature's claim
1 twisted image
2 hurkyl's recall
2 wall of roots
2 dismember
1 viridian corrupter
1 wild defiance
I should add that Viridian Corrupter has been brilliant, and I have even had the satisfaction of hitting Chalice of the Void with it on turn 2 after a turn 1 Noble Hierarch.
I have also been testing Stonewood Invocation, as both Chalice of the Void and Spellskite don't stop it. Even though it costs 4 mana, it is essentially several spells rolled into one, and has been a great finisher surprisingly! Not sure yet if it will be included in my tourney deck.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
BG cuts speed for answers. That is a very large functional difference. UG doesn't care what you resolve most of the time, the object is still kill you. BG however needs to clear the way of blockers. The only removal Ug plays is Twisted image and maybe a singleton Dismember or Viridian Corrupter. BG on the other hand plays Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize & Dismember. The difference in T1 Noble, T2 Blighted Agent with protection is vastly different than T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Plague Stinger. That is the problem with the BG version, sometimes a single well placed blocker loses you the game. BG is much less count to 10 ASAP and is more calculated with well placed killspells.
Therefore, it seems like these responses you keep posting are nonsense. Look at the BG list I posted. The things you are refuting are non existent. I kill on t2/3 slightly less often than a UG list, with the benefit of more staying power and more interaction and way more evasion. The lists i see posted run 6ish non-pump, as does mine. The rest of the list is all business, as is mine. My BG list has more business because it has 4 more creatures than the UG lists, adding more consistency, and the non pump spells durdle or don't do anything sometimes (I'm looking at you spell pierce).
You have yet to state any credible reason why/how UG isn't the sinking boat that BG isn't.
Removal heavy metas where Phyrexian Crusader shines against Lightning Bolt, Path of Exile, and similar spells.
BG builds play cards like Abrupt Decay & Thoughtseize main, cards that do not win you the game. Almost every single card in UG does something towards you winning the game. Even Git Probe draws you a card for no mana, and lets you see what removal you need to play around, and feeds become immense. UG cuts cards that actually interact with board state so that they can swing in for the win, hopefully with a protection spell backup. Who needs to deal with Tarmogoyf when you can pump Blighted Agent for the win? BG Plays actual removal that directly interacts with board state. There is a strong fundamental difference in the builds because the UG build is much more glass cannon. It uses every single mana to attempt to kill you. For 3 mana UG can cast 2 pump spells and keep up a protection spell. BG actually cares about the cards you resolve. BG wants to Abrupt Decay your Goyf and then swing, hopefully leaving up protection. On T1, UG wants to play Git Probe, then play Elf if it is safe, Noble if it is not. BG Wants to Thoughtseize and take your problematic cards.
Plague Stinger & Phyrexian Crusader do have evasion, but are not straight up unblockable like Blighted Agent. A single well placed Tarmogoyf can block Crusader and sometimes live to block multiple times. Plague Stinger gets blocked by literally any flyer or reach card. Both cards simple get blocked sometimes, when can be the deciding factor in a game.
BG has more diverse builds as well. I have seen people play different combinations of the removal suite, depending on the expected meta. Some people play hand removal main, some do not. Different combinations of Abrupt Decay, Dismember, Go for the Throat and even a Virulent Wound here or there. The UG List is more tight needing cards like Git Probe to get there.
I don't see how either build could be a sinking ship when the meta isn't even clearly defined yet. The Eldrazi decks performance at the pro tour clearly shows the meta is still evolving after the ban update. Even Tom Ross himself has been switching between the UG & BG builds recently. Both builds have pros and cons. But they are not the same deck. The UG list plays more like a combo deck, needing certain pieces to win. The BG deck plays like a Aggro/Tempo build, building pressure and removing problematic cards from the board. Sure, you can replace the blighted agent with plague stinger and just call the deck BG, but it isn't the best idea. BUG Infect isn't a thing anymore for a reason.
-So what is eldrazi doing against inkmoth/plague stinger again? Focusing on one dude when i have 12 others is foolishness. Don't do this anymore.
-All i see here is UG crying about the burn matchup. The sb is NOT better, and t2 crusader vs burn is lights out much of the time. There is NO equivalent in the UG list, just like there's no equivalent for vampiric link.
Don't bring this matchup up again please, it's disingenuous.
-BGx abrupt decay dismember and thoughtseize from the side do loads of work. But i have a hard time believing your matchup is anything but abysmal vs Jund and Abzan.
-Living death isn't a thing, i don't know why you brought it up.
-I NEVER SAID it was better, i said, 95% of the time a t2 crusader is FUNCTIONALLY EQUIVALENT to a t2 b.agent, because previously, before our new eldrazi overlords took up camp, wth was most decks to do about a t2 crusader? terminate? path? bolt? Electrolyze? the whole point was that b agent needs protection whereas most days crusader doesn't. and in the same matchups where crusader needs protecting, so does all of the UG list. So stop tying to get all upset because I'm saying things you don't necessarily want to hear.
So again, if you can speak from a non-delusional point, where are all these supposed edges? Because again, I've played infect in all its iterations and still do from time to time. I know the lists, i PLAY BOTH lists. the UG lists are going under, and you're here trying (and failing) to cherry pick what you think might be bad match ups when the reality is you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you come in here attempting to lecture me poorly about things you have no clue. Because if you did, you wouldn't have said half the things you said.
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
I know, it still isn't a thing tho.I mean, i suppose the deck is ok, but it sees practically zero play. I'm not going to get all worked up over a practically fictional matchup when the eldrazi are everywhere now, yanno?
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
"As a U/G Infect player, I have never lost a sanctioned match against burn also I think that guy meant Living End."
If you aren't sure, you need to figure out a plan B in terms of either decks you'd like to play or in terms of how easy the cards are to trade out. Nobles are played in more decks than Inkmoths, so I'd probably start with Nobles.
4x Blighted Agent
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Breeding Pool
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Forest
2x Pendelhaven
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Mutagenic Growth
3x Might of Old Krosa
3x Become Immense
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Serum Visions
2x Spell Pierce
2x Apostle's Blessing
3x Spellskite
3x Twisted Image
2x Dismember
2x Spell Pierce
1x Wild Defiance
1x Viridian Corruptor
3x Nature's Claim