I've decided to move from Mana Leak to Rune Snag because they get better as you use them.
There are a few problems with Rune Snag over Mana Leak. First is the obvious all in plan you kind of need to accompany Rune Snag. In order for Rune Snag to be good, you want to see more than one every game, which means you'll want to run 4. Most decks I have seen run 3 Mana Leak, so you need to remove another card to clear up that slot for the fourth Snag. Second is the information you give your opponent. If you play a Mana Leak your opponent doesn't know how many you have in the deck. Is it a miser's one of? Do you have a full play set? It's unknown information to them. When you cast a Rune Snag however your opponent immediately knows you have 4 of them in the deck because of the nature of how the card works. Then there is the issue of Snapcaster. Now I know our deck isn't all in on Tiago like other decks, but Snaps does help us use the spells we have already used when we need them again in a pinch. If you need to Snap a Rune Snag when you only have 1 in the yard, it's just strictly worse than Snapping a Mana Leak.
I think to compare the two we need to look at them like this:
Mana Leak - Counters unless they pay 3 100% of the time
Rune Snag - Counters unless they pay 2 70% of the time, counters unless they pay 4 30% of the time
I don't see anyone ever banking on being able to counter for 6 or 8, that is just silly wishful thinking, and Magical Christmas Land. Our best case scenarios with Snag are to be able to cast one or Snap one while already having used one (used 2 in the case of Snapping). Best case with Mana Leak is to just have the damn thing.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
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The more aggressive and tempo based versions run it (usually accompanied by scion.)
This actually brings me to Gerry Thompson's article on the premium side of scg. He discusses how mtg is now about virtual card advantage, which is defined by him as curving out with permanents. I find it interesting how this forum as slowly went away from the strict "all in control version" of faeries.
Some people are now accepting scion as an option or more planeswalkers. Obviously we still don't know the optimal build, but I was excited to see something like the aethervial, scion, phatasmal image version of faeries do well. Its not exactly my play style, but its something I've always considered trying out.
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I read that article too, I thought it was pretty interesting. What is nice to note is that a lot of the cards in the Faerie archetype give us virtual card advtange.
Bitterblossom provides us with dudes every single turn.
Spellstutter Sprite technically acts as a 2 for 1 being both a counter spell and a creature
Same goes for Scion if we use it in response to any form of removal.
Mistbind Clique gives us an entire turn of advantage through stopping our opponent from casting anything
And the many modes on Cryptic Command just have oodles of value.
I think once we find an optimal build for this deck it's going to break into tier 1 with a vengeance, as there is so much power behind the cards the deck plays.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
A whole bunch of people in the beginning of this thread suggested cards that were disregarded with a whim (Scion, Aether Vial, Lily, etc) only to be brought up again by the same people who denied their playability in the first place. As magic players and participants in competitive play everyone shouldn't be such bandwagon **** riders. We all know some cards die to bolt, most everything dies to abrupt decay, thoughtseize messes up plans, and aven mindcensor and blood moon are going to school you at some point in your life. Having said that all threads, not just this one should take a different avenue in how they call so many ideas rubish. Just because someone placed with a certain build doesn't make it the definitive version, it means that they are on the right track (or one of many right tracks). All roads connect and it is up to players who have time to test certain ideas who end up becoming victorious. I've piloted many of the versions of the deck (with scion tempo, sword/lily control, rat at various numbers, time warp, UB, UW, UR, UBw gift fae) all in all I think the deck can go in any of those directions and with the proper build could top and win, the main thing is if we want to be T1 we should adapt the core to whatever the meta call is. We aren't going to win against burn and affinity regularly with control UB list we have a shot, but it is typically a long shot beating them each round when they are naturally faster then us. UR fae would have an easier matchup against those expected decks due to sideboard option and overall card selection represented in those colors. If you want to get willy nilly and just swing flying with a sword then UG with a ramp into timewarp is probably your best plan to win fast.
Overall I think the perfect version of this deck has yet to be found or that the perfect version of this deck varies from tournament to tournament designed to specifically target the decks we'd expect to be highly represented. Being that faeries are glass cannons we won't always have perfect matchups and alot of stuff can shut our main strategy down so finding a backup plan is of the upmost importance. Bitterblossom can't be our only crutch whenever abrupt decay is running rampant unless we play a scion version to protect said enchantment. Also lingering souls in Rock, Junk, and BW are always gonna give us a run for our money. We should spend our time better constructing a list of cards that absolutely scare us then from that list find cards that would give us more of an upperhand or at least a fighting chance when we encounter those expected threats.
Having said that I currently feel the strongest color combo would be UG though we'd lose Blossom, seize, etc. We'd allow for quicker play and options for artifact decks Fracturing Gust could be pumped out fast against affinity, we'd have access to a ground beater like Goyf, a graveyard and life manipulator in ooze from sideboard, and a good manabase that could still support mutavault and tec edges. UR is also an option for racing and land hate molten rain and could abuse tectonic as well as other mana denial with snapcaster providing quick face damage, White is another option for pretty much the strongest hate cards in the game (though no one has been attempting the UW build at all)
I play currently with Control Fae (lily and sword) and have a great time saying "No" then pecking at the enemy until they are dead while at the same time dwindling my own life total via Blossom. However sometimes I wish I could say "No" a couple of times and then just take their life in a couple of swings which is how I felt when playing UG. The deck is subject to change because it has such an amazing core of tribal ETB effects and now that Hushwing Gryff is a card we can expect anything with white to have access to such a oppressing force.
So now that my rant is over, what are some cards that you all fear in your matchups against specific decks? Lets build a list of things that need attention and then offer suggestions on how to avoid or deal with those problematic situations. I would love to see us come together and try to make the strongest deck rather then listen to the same ideas get tossed back and forth and hear the same "dies to this, losses to that" argument every card has a kryptonite so just saying it losses out to one card is a weak argument and stand point. We run blue and almost everything in the format losses to blue and or black a couple times each match, still I never hear "That cards great but mana leak is a card" "Liliana is alright but dang it loses to thoughtseize" "Oh yeah, Tarmo would be good but spell snare eats it" "why are you playing affinity? Stoney SilenceKrosan gripNaturalizeAncient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall just wreck us" Still people continue suite. So I ask you fellow faerie pilots which list do you feel has the most comfortable matchup against not just most of the field, but which list would provide us a equal opportunity in all of our matchups?
I've decided to move from Mana Leak to Rune Snag because they get better as you use them.
There are a few problems with Rune Snag over Mana Leak. First is the obvious all in plan you kind of need to accompany Rune Snag. In order for Rune Snag to be good, you want to see more than one every game, which means you'll want to run 4. Most decks I have seen run 3 Mana Leak, so you need to remove another card to clear up that slot for the fourth Snag. Second is the information you give your opponent. If you play a Mana Leak your opponent doesn't know how many you have in the deck. Is it a miser's one of? Do you have a full play set? It's unknown information to them. When you cast a Rune Snag however your opponent immediately knows you have 4 of them in the deck because of the nature of how the card works. Then there is the issue of Snapcaster. Now I know our deck isn't all in on Tiago like other decks, but Snaps does help us use the spells we have already used when we need them again in a pinch. If you need to Snap a Rune Snag when you only have 1 in the yard, it's just strictly worse than Snapping a Mana Leak.
I think to compare the two we need to look at them like this:
Mana Leak - Counters unless they pay 3 100% of the time
Rune Snag - Counters unless they pay 2 70% of the time, counters unless they pay 4 30% of the time
I don't see anyone ever banking on being able to counter for 6 or 8, that is just silly wishful thinking, and Magical Christmas Land. Our best case scenarios with Snag are to be able to cast one or Snap one while already having used one (used 2 in the case of Snapping). Best case with Mana Leak is to just have the damn thing.
That's solid math, and more thinking that I did about it. Right now I'm running 4 snag, 2 snare, and 3 Cryptic. So far it's a pretty balanced set of denial, along with 4 SSS. I don't feel bad if I have to discard a card at some point and snag is in hand. It also turns out to be a great card to pitch to make a pack rat (which in some recent testing is just great). Something to keep in mind, I'm not using any hand disruption, so there's room for some extra stuff.
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A whole bunch of people in the beginning of this thread suggested cards that were disregarded with a whim (Scion, Aether Vial, Lily, etc) only to be brought up again by the same people who denied their playability in the first place. As magic players and participants in competitive play everyone shouldn't be such bandwagon **** riders. We all know some cards die to bolt, most everything dies to abrupt decay, thoughtseize messes up plans, and aven mindcensor and blood moon are going to school you at some point in your life. Having said that all threads, not just this one should take a different avenue in how they call so many ideas rubish. Just because someone placed with a certain build doesn't make it the definitive version, it means that they are on the right track (or one of many right tracks). All roads connect and it is up to players who have time to test certain ideas who end up becoming victorious. I've piloted many of the versions of the deck (with scion tempo, sword/lily control, rat at various numbers, time warp, UB, UW, UR, UBw gift fae) all in all I think the deck can go in any of those directions and with the proper build could top and win, the main thing is if we want to be T1 we should adapt the core to whatever the meta call is. We aren't going to win against burn and affinity regularly with control UB list we have a shot, but it is typically a long shot beating them each round when they are naturally faster then us. UR fae would have an easier matchup against those expected decks due to sideboard option and overall card selection represented in those colors. If you want to get willy nilly and just swing flying with a sword then UG with a ramp into timewarp is probably your best plan to win fast.
Overall I think the perfect version of this deck has yet to be found or that the perfect version of this deck varies from tournament to tournament designed to specifically target the decks we'd expect to be highly represented. Being that faeries are glass cannons we won't always have perfect matchups and alot of stuff can shut our main strategy down so finding a backup plan is of the upmost importance. Bitterblossom can't be our only crutch whenever abrupt decay is running rampant unless we play a scion version to protect said enchantment. Also lingering souls in Rock, Junk, and BW are always gonna give us a run for our money. We should spend our time better constructing a list of cards that absolutely scare us then from that list find cards that would give us more of an upperhand or at least a fighting chance when we encounter those expected threats.
Having said that I currently feel the strongest color combo would be UG though we'd lose Blossom, seize, etc. We'd allow for quicker play and options for artifact decks Fracturing Gust could be pumped out fast against affinity, we'd have access to a ground beater like Goyf, a graveyard and life manipulator in ooze from sideboard, and a good manabase that could still support mutavault and tec edges. UR is also an option for racing and land hate molten rain and could abuse tectonic as well as other mana denial with snapcaster providing quick face damage, White is another option for pretty much the strongest hate cards in the game (though no one has been attempting the UW build at all)
I play currently with Control Fae (lily and sword) and have a great time saying "No" then pecking at the enemy until they are dead while at the same time dwindling my own life total via Blossom. However sometimes I wish I could say "No" a couple of times and then just take their life in a couple of swings which is how I felt when playing UG. The deck is subject to change because it has such an amazing core of tribal ETB effects and now that Hushwing Gryff is a card we can expect anything with white to have access to such a oppressing force.
So now that my rant is over, what are some cards that you all fear in your matchups against specific decks? Lets build a list of things that need attention and then offer suggestions on how to avoid or deal with those problematic situations. I would love to see us come together and try to make the strongest deck rather then listen to the same ideas get tossed back and forth and hear the same "dies to this, losses to that" argument every card has a kryptonite so just saying it losses out to one card is a weak argument and stand point. We run blue and almost everything in the format losses to blue and or black a couple times each match, still I never hear "That cards great but mana leak is a card" "Liliana is alright but dang it loses to thoughtseize" "Oh yeah, Tarmo would be good but spell snare eats it" "why are you playing affinity? Stoney SilenceKrosan gripNaturalizeAncient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall just wreck us" Still people continue suite. So I ask you fellow faerie pilots which list do you feel has the most comfortable matchup against not just most of the field, but which list would provide us a equal opportunity in all of our matchups?
I love your rant and you were a lot more frank about pointing out how many people are bandwagon riders. I think we should first decide what type of meta we are trying to defeat. Some people are only building for fnms. I would like to focus on gps and protours(not that I would ever make it to that level, but I can dream. )
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
@WalksWithThunder: Wonderful speech sir. Take a bow, that was very well written.
I think if we want to try to formulate the "best faerie deck" we need to put in testing.
Question: Who here has Magic Online and has a Faerie deck on it? If someone is willing to start grinding Modern Dailies and Modern Events we can get some good results in. Here's the thing though. If you want to grind a deck for testing, you need to change something in the deck approximately every 5 to 10 rounds. This way you can get some decent testing in with different things you are trying. and with waiting 5 to 10 rounds between changes you get up to 15 to 30 games to try out whatever new tech you are throwing in.
As for anyone who doesn't have Magic Online, or owns exactly zero cards for the deck on Magic Online (like myself) we should probably try to grind whatever events we can in our areas. If in grinding simple things like FNMs we find some other people who are also grinding decks for testing for large events, we can put together our own playtesting groups to try stuff with.
Again, all of this can be done but only if people have the time to. I don't expect anyone to drop their lives for us trying to figure out the Faerie deck if you don't want to.
We should probably go back over the thread and see what cards we have just kind of laughed off, and see if we think any of them deserve reconsidering (in fact, I'll do that myself right now). Best thing about this, is that we aren't doing this for a Standard deck, so this thing isn't rotating away in 2 months
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
A whole bunch of people in the beginning of this thread suggested cards that were disregarded with a whim (Scion, Aether Vial, Lily, etc) only to be brought up again by the same people who denied their playability in the first place. As magic players and participants in competitive play everyone shouldn't be such bandwagon **** riders. We all know some cards die to bolt, most everything dies to abrupt decay, thoughtseize messes up plans, and aven mindcensor and blood moon are going to school you at some point in your life. Having said that all threads, not just this one should take a different avenue in how they call so many ideas rubish. Just because someone placed with a certain build doesn't make it the definitive version, it means that they are on the right track (or one of many right tracks). All roads connect and it is up to players who have time to test certain ideas who end up becoming victorious. I've piloted many of the versions of the deck (with scion tempo, sword/lily control, rat at various numbers, time warp, UB, UW, UR, UBw gift fae) all in all I think the deck can go in any of those directions and with the proper build could top and win, the main thing is if we want to be T1 we should adapt the core to whatever the meta call is. We aren't going to win against burn and affinity regularly with control UB list we have a shot, but it is typically a long shot beating them each round when they are naturally faster then us. UR fae would have an easier matchup against those expected decks due to sideboard option and overall card selection represented in those colors. If you want to get willy nilly and just swing flying with a sword then UG with a ramp into timewarp is probably your best plan to win fast.
Overall I think the perfect version of this deck has yet to be found or that the perfect version of this deck varies from tournament to tournament designed to specifically target the decks we'd expect to be highly represented. Being that faeries are glass cannons we won't always have perfect matchups and alot of stuff can shut our main strategy down so finding a backup plan is of the upmost importance. Bitterblossom can't be our only crutch whenever abrupt decay is running rampant unless we play a scion version to protect said enchantment. Also lingering souls in Rock, Junk, and BW are always gonna give us a run for our money. We should spend our time better constructing a list of cards that absolutely scare us then from that list find cards that would give us more of an upperhand or at least a fighting chance when we encounter those expected threats.
Having said that I currently feel the strongest color combo would be UG though we'd lose Blossom, seize, etc. We'd allow for quicker play and options for artifact decks Fracturing Gust could be pumped out fast against affinity, we'd have access to a ground beater like Goyf, a graveyard and life manipulator in ooze from sideboard, and a good manabase that could still support mutavault and tec edges. UR is also an option for racing and land hate molten rain and could abuse tectonic as well as other mana denial with snapcaster providing quick face damage, White is another option for pretty much the strongest hate cards in the game (though no one has been attempting the UW build at all)
I play currently with Control Fae (lily and sword) and have a great time saying "No" then pecking at the enemy until they are dead while at the same time dwindling my own life total via Blossom. However sometimes I wish I could say "No" a couple of times and then just take their life in a couple of swings which is how I felt when playing UG. The deck is subject to change because it has such an amazing core of tribal ETB effects and now that Hushwing Gryff is a card we can expect anything with white to have access to such a oppressing force.
So now that my rant is over, what are some cards that you all fear in your matchups against specific decks? Lets build a list of things that need attention and then offer suggestions on how to avoid or deal with those problematic situations. I would love to see us come together and try to make the strongest deck rather then listen to the same ideas get tossed back and forth and hear the same "dies to this, losses to that" argument every card has a kryptonite so just saying it losses out to one card is a weak argument and stand point. We run blue and almost everything in the format losses to blue and or black a couple times each match, still I never hear "That cards great but mana leak is a card" "Liliana is alright but dang it loses to thoughtseize" "Oh yeah, Tarmo would be good but spell snare eats it" "why are you playing affinity? Stoney SilenceKrosan gripNaturalizeAncient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall just wreck us" Still people continue suite. So I ask you fellow faerie pilots which list do you feel has the most comfortable matchup against not just most of the field, but which list would provide us a equal opportunity in all of our matchups?
I would probably play BUG Fae before UG Fae. Having access to both Goyf and Bitterblossom is too good to pass up. However, I personally still prefer Esper because I still love the Gifts sideboard plan.
I know it's heretical, but has anyone tested a list without Mutavault? Mutavault is fundamentally incompatable with the manabase of a deck that wants Turn 1 Thoughtseize -> Turn 2 Bitterblossom -> or counter -> Turn 3 Vendilion Clique and -> Turn 4 Cryptic Command. Unless you run no basics and accept folding to Blood Moon, there's no way to make the numbers for this deck work (according to Frank Karsten's recent model) while running Mutavault. Yes, I'm well aware of the many upsides of Mutavault. But I'm not aware of anyone actually testing to see if the downside of the mana is actually worth it.
So, has anyone seriously tried Fae with good mana?
I know it's heretical, but has anyone tested a list without Mutavault? Mutavault is fundamentally incompatable with the manabase of a deck that wants Turn 1 Thoughtseize -> Turn 2 Bitterblossom -> or counter -> Turn 3 Vendilion Clique and -> Turn 4 Cryptic Command. Unless you run no basics and accept folding to Blood Moon, there's no way to make the numbers for this deck work (according to Frank Karsten's recent model) while running Mutavault. Yes, I'm well aware of the many upsides of Mutavault. But I'm not aware of anyone actually testing to see if the downside of the mana is actually worth it.
So, has anyone seriously tried Fae with good mana?
Mutavault does things that outweigh its non-color. It acts like a faerie, boosting spellstutter or giving you an out for a champion. I'm dabbling with pack rat and it boosts rats too. Very versatile. If it was an issue you could cut river of tears and add a couple urborg, at least mutavault could tap for black then.
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Hi guys, been playing faeries for a while now and keeping up with this thread since the BB unbanning. I know people have been using Jace for card draw, but has anyone here considered Dictate of Kruphix? It has the same mana cost, and has flash to help so we can play it end step giving us first advantage, and being an enchantment, it would be harder to deal with once it hits. It seeme that giving our opponents another card is usually irrelevant since our draws have more of an impact on the game.
It doesn't give us first advantage because we have to invest a card in it. For example -
T3 opponent's end step cast Dictate (-1 card)
T4 our draw step proc Dictate (+1 card for net 0 cards)
T4 opponent's draw step proc Dictate (+1 card advantage to opponent)
etc
Dictate can be used in some decks, but I would suggest it is incorrect in Faeries.
A whole bunch of people in the beginning of this thread suggested cards that were disregarded with a whim (Scion, Aether Vial, Lily, etc) only to be brought up again by the same people who denied their playability in the first place. As magic players and participants in competitive play everyone shouldn't be such bandwagon **** riders. We all know some cards die to bolt, most everything dies to abrupt decay, thoughtseize messes up plans, and aven mindcensor and blood moon are going to school you at some point in your life. Having said that all threads, not just this one should take a different avenue in how they call so many ideas rubish. Just because someone placed with a certain build doesn't make it the definitive version, it means that they are on the right track (or one of many right tracks). All roads connect and it is up to players who have time to test certain ideas who end up becoming victorious. I've piloted many of the versions of the deck (with scion tempo, sword/lily control, rat at various numbers, time warp, UB, UW, UR, UBw gift fae) all in all I think the deck can go in any of those directions and with the proper build could top and win, the main thing is if we want to be T1 we should adapt the core to whatever the meta call is. We aren't going to win against burn and affinity regularly with control UB list we have a shot, but it is typically a long shot beating them each round when they are naturally faster then us. UR fae would have an easier matchup against those expected decks due to sideboard option and overall card selection represented in those colors. If you want to get willy nilly and just swing flying with a sword then UG with a ramp into timewarp is probably your best plan to win fast.
Overall I think the perfect version of this deck has yet to be found or that the perfect version of this deck varies from tournament to tournament designed to specifically target the decks we'd expect to be highly represented. Being that faeries are glass cannons we won't always have perfect matchups and alot of stuff can shut our main strategy down so finding a backup plan is of the upmost importance. Bitterblossom can't be our only crutch whenever abrupt decay is running rampant unless we play a scion version to protect said enchantment. Also lingering souls in Rock, Junk, and BW are always gonna give us a run for our money. We should spend our time better constructing a list of cards that absolutely scare us then from that list find cards that would give us more of an upperhand or at least a fighting chance when we encounter those expected threats.
Having said that I currently feel the strongest color combo would be UG though we'd lose Blossom, seize, etc. We'd allow for quicker play and options for artifact decks Fracturing Gust could be pumped out fast against affinity, we'd have access to a ground beater like Goyf, a graveyard and life manipulator in ooze from sideboard, and a good manabase that could still support mutavault and tec edges. UR is also an option for racing and land hate molten rain and could abuse tectonic as well as other mana denial with snapcaster providing quick face damage, White is another option for pretty much the strongest hate cards in the game (though no one has been attempting the UW build at all)
I play currently with Control Fae (lily and sword) and have a great time saying "No" then pecking at the enemy until they are dead while at the same time dwindling my own life total via Blossom. However sometimes I wish I could say "No" a couple of times and then just take their life in a couple of swings which is how I felt when playing UG. The deck is subject to change because it has such an amazing core of tribal ETB effects and now that Hushwing Gryff is a card we can expect anything with white to have access to such a oppressing force.
So now that my rant is over, what are some cards that you all fear in your matchups against specific decks? Lets build a list of things that need attention and then offer suggestions on how to avoid or deal with those problematic situations. I would love to see us come together and try to make the strongest deck rather then listen to the same ideas get tossed back and forth and hear the same "dies to this, losses to that" argument every card has a kryptonite so just saying it losses out to one card is a weak argument and stand point. We run blue and almost everything in the format losses to blue and or black a couple times each match, still I never hear "That cards great but mana leak is a card" "Liliana is alright but dang it loses to thoughtseize" "Oh yeah, Tarmo would be good but spell snare eats it" "why are you playing affinity? Stoney SilenceKrosan gripNaturalizeAncient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall just wreck us" Still people continue suite. So I ask you fellow faerie pilots which list do you feel has the most comfortable matchup against not just most of the field, but which list would provide us a equal opportunity in all of our matchups?
I would probably play BUG Fae before UG Fae. Having access to both Goyf and Bitterblossom is too good to pass up. However, I personally still prefer Esper because I still love the Gifts sideboard plan.
This is what I'm talking about! Esper faeries seems to me to be the key to success all around because we could completely shift our game plan post board and catch them off guard and Elesh Norn seems like a ridiculous card alongside an ever growing army of faeries. I'd also add one whip in the SB in that kind of build mainly because it is a nice tag alongside gifts. The only problem I'd find in that color base is trying to justify mainly faeries in the build there are so many viable options in creatures in Esper and I feel like the shell would look a little lack luster in comparison to those who are trying to use faeries tribal theme more so. Two color is the way we'd be able to keep the shell of faeries intact without letting other great cards push their way into our supply of ammo. UBG on the other hand is kind of an exception because it does offer some beastly cards in Abrupt Decay, Goyf, Blossom, and Ooze. Unfortunately and fortunately that is a lot of competition vying for the 2 CMC slot.
Lets play theory for a second if you had a hand in UBg that looked something like (Land, Fetch, Goyf, blossom, Seize, M.Clique, SSS) What would you do on your first two turns and why? (obviously this is a nuts draw, but it allows us to look at a staple game plan) Do you see Lily in a list like this? What kind of removal/denial package would you run and what creatures would you run seeing as we want a solid 12 creatures that will allow us to play the right proactive and reactive gameplan?
A mock list I'd imagine is something like
4 Goyf (obviously)
1 V.Clique (is double blue always gonna be viable for more?)
4 Spellstutter (we don't really need mana leak now with blossom and decay)
3 Mistbind Clique (timewalk for win seems obvious with a beater on the ground and in the sky)
4 Blossom
3 Decay (siding the fourth because we have SSS for lower costed mofo's)
4 Thoughtseize (we want to get rid of whatever isn't as easy to deny with SSS and Decay)
2 IoK (why not make sure we get rid of stuff up to 3 CMC?)
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast?
2 Remand (stall em out and draw)
2/3 Lily (This list wants to deny our control matchup of answers)
Swords or no swords?
What else would you run? I could see mana dorks in a list like this instead of random land we really only want 4CMC for affinity hate in green and mistbind clique so our curve is fairly low.
When I have more time I'll make a full list of both color combos and see what you'd do differently.
I can already tell you in Esper PtE, Lingering souls, and Lily are gonna be there for me because of their overall usability and synergies. Blossom and lingering souls in the same deck seems amazing from the start and being able to be so proactive mainboard and reactive and "Sneaky" post board with gifts would be insanity.
Thanks for listening to my rant before fellas. I just want to pick everyones brain a bit more and get things snowballing into more creative strategies with such a creative group of cards the possibilities seem endless.
Ever since hearing the notion of gifts/norn in esper fae I've been considering it. I really like the idea.
Trust me, it is good. I made a list back in February for it and it was amazing. If you draw the Gifts, you win against almost every top deck in the format. Elesh Norn kills every creature in Affinity. It does almost exactly the same thing to Melira Pod with the very small chance of them drawing Shriekmaw without you having a counterspell. Same goes for Twin. And Iona against BGx on black almost completely stops them.
I know it's heretical, but has anyone tested a list without Mutavault? Mutavault is fundamentally incompatable with the manabase of a deck that wants Turn 1 Thoughtseize -> Turn 2 Bitterblossom -> or counter -> Turn 3 Vendilion Clique and -> Turn 4 Cryptic Command. Unless you run no basics and accept folding to Blood Moon, there's no way to make the numbers for this deck work (according to Frank Karsten's recent model) while running Mutavault. Yes, I'm well aware of the many upsides of Mutavault. But I'm not aware of anyone actually testing to see if the downside of the mana is actually worth it.
So, has anyone seriously tried Fae with good mana?
As long as you are playing 2 color, its realy unproblematic. If you have 25 lands and just 4 mutavaults, you can have 21 sources of blue and 15-16 of black. There are seldom decks that have such good manabases. You can even run like 1 tec. edge in that example and still be totaly fine.
And i realy don't get your example, t1 thoughseize or t2 bitterblossom don't hinder follow up vendillion cliques or cryptic commands at all, since all black manasources produce blue aswell.
According to Frank Karsten, at 60 card deck with 24 lands needs 14 black sources to get one on T1 and 22 blue sources to get UUU on T4 90% of the time. I don't believe anyone has built a manabase for Modern Faeries that hits those numbers. And the manabases we do use rely heavily on lands that ETB tapped at least some of the time.
Anyway, I'm not looking for arguments for Mutavault. Obviously Mutavault is amazing, and I'm well aware of that. I'm just asking if anyone has tried cleaning up the mana and seeing how that plays.
I think looking at the statistics is very important when building a manabase. Whenever I play 3 plus cryptic I shave on a mutavault or 2(and this is a manabase with no tec edges). I honestly miss the fourth mutavault more than the 3rd/fourth cryptic in most cases. Four mana and triple blue is still a lot in modern. I'm not saying that is right, but we are attempting to keep our minds open.
Bgx has established itself as one of the (if not THE) top deck in modern(again). I honestly haven't played the matchup often(especially the lingering souls version.) I know that we have bombs and expolosives boarded, but souls seems annoying. I also think a deck with 7-8 discard spells post board will be difficult to deal with. (People with more experience in the matchup may disagree.) How would we go about dealing with a meta full of this deck? I'm personally not a big fan of hand disruption against them, but it feels necessary to try to hit abrupt decays and pulses. What do you guys think?
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I've been tinkering with mana by adding a few Cavern of Souls. It will cast black for bitterblossom, blue for everything else, and makes SSS as hard a counter as there is. It won't help cast cryptics UUU, but consider that you can slam mistbind on opponents upkeep with no counter response, cavern makes a lot of cards dead in their hands, temporarily at least.
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How does Cavern of Souls give black for Bitterblossom?
It's a decent card, but I think Mutavault and Tectonic Edge are more important to have in the deck.
My mistake, it doesn't work for bitterblossom. Mutavault are great, but Tec Edge is just not as good to me. Sure, it hammers tron and other manlands, but Cavern ensures I get the guys on the board when I want them for the effect I want.
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There are a few problems with Rune Snag over Mana Leak. First is the obvious all in plan you kind of need to accompany Rune Snag. In order for Rune Snag to be good, you want to see more than one every game, which means you'll want to run 4. Most decks I have seen run 3 Mana Leak, so you need to remove another card to clear up that slot for the fourth Snag. Second is the information you give your opponent. If you play a Mana Leak your opponent doesn't know how many you have in the deck. Is it a miser's one of? Do you have a full play set? It's unknown information to them. When you cast a Rune Snag however your opponent immediately knows you have 4 of them in the deck because of the nature of how the card works. Then there is the issue of Snapcaster. Now I know our deck isn't all in on Tiago like other decks, but Snaps does help us use the spells we have already used when we need them again in a pinch. If you need to Snap a Rune Snag when you only have 1 in the yard, it's just strictly worse than Snapping a Mana Leak.
I think to compare the two we need to look at them like this:
Mana Leak - Counters unless they pay 3 100% of the time
Rune Snag - Counters unless they pay 2 70% of the time, counters unless they pay 4 30% of the time
I don't see anyone ever banking on being able to counter for 6 or 8, that is just silly wishful thinking, and Magical Christmas Land. Our best case scenarios with Snag are to be able to cast one or Snap one while already having used one (used 2 in the case of Snapping). Best case with Mana Leak is to just have the damn thing.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The more aggressive and tempo based versions run it (usually accompanied by scion.)
This actually brings me to Gerry Thompson's article on the premium side of scg. He discusses how mtg is now about virtual card advantage, which is defined by him as curving out with permanents. I find it interesting how this forum as slowly went away from the strict "all in control version" of faeries.
Some people are now accepting scion as an option or more planeswalkers. Obviously we still don't know the optimal build, but I was excited to see something like the aethervial, scion, phatasmal image version of faeries do well. Its not exactly my play style, but its something I've always considered trying out.
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Bitterblossom provides us with dudes every single turn.
Spellstutter Sprite technically acts as a 2 for 1 being both a counter spell and a creature
Same goes for Scion if we use it in response to any form of removal.
Mistbind Clique gives us an entire turn of advantage through stopping our opponent from casting anything
And the many modes on Cryptic Command just have oodles of value.
I think once we find an optimal build for this deck it's going to break into tier 1 with a vengeance, as there is so much power behind the cards the deck plays.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Overall I think the perfect version of this deck has yet to be found or that the perfect version of this deck varies from tournament to tournament designed to specifically target the decks we'd expect to be highly represented. Being that faeries are glass cannons we won't always have perfect matchups and alot of stuff can shut our main strategy down so finding a backup plan is of the upmost importance. Bitterblossom can't be our only crutch whenever abrupt decay is running rampant unless we play a scion version to protect said enchantment. Also lingering souls in Rock, Junk, and BW are always gonna give us a run for our money. We should spend our time better constructing a list of cards that absolutely scare us then from that list find cards that would give us more of an upperhand or at least a fighting chance when we encounter those expected threats.
Having said that I currently feel the strongest color combo would be UG though we'd lose Blossom, seize, etc. We'd allow for quicker play and options for artifact decks Fracturing Gust could be pumped out fast against affinity, we'd have access to a ground beater like Goyf, a graveyard and life manipulator in ooze from sideboard, and a good manabase that could still support mutavault and tec edges. UR is also an option for racing and land hate molten rain and could abuse tectonic as well as other mana denial with snapcaster providing quick face damage, White is another option for pretty much the strongest hate cards in the game (though no one has been attempting the UW build at all)
I play currently with Control Fae (lily and sword) and have a great time saying "No" then pecking at the enemy until they are dead while at the same time dwindling my own life total via Blossom. However sometimes I wish I could say "No" a couple of times and then just take their life in a couple of swings which is how I felt when playing UG. The deck is subject to change because it has such an amazing core of tribal ETB effects and now that Hushwing Gryff is a card we can expect anything with white to have access to such a oppressing force.
So now that my rant is over, what are some cards that you all fear in your matchups against specific decks? Lets build a list of things that need attention and then offer suggestions on how to avoid or deal with those problematic situations. I would love to see us come together and try to make the strongest deck rather then listen to the same ideas get tossed back and forth and hear the same "dies to this, losses to that" argument every card has a kryptonite so just saying it losses out to one card is a weak argument and stand point. We run blue and almost everything in the format losses to blue and or black a couple times each match, still I never hear "That cards great but mana leak is a card" "Liliana is alright but dang it loses to thoughtseize" "Oh yeah, Tarmo would be good but spell snare eats it" "why are you playing affinity? Stoney Silence Krosan grip Naturalize Ancient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall just wreck us" Still people continue suite. So I ask you fellow faerie pilots which list do you feel has the most comfortable matchup against not just most of the field, but which list would provide us a equal opportunity in all of our matchups?
That's solid math, and more thinking that I did about it. Right now I'm running 4 snag, 2 snare, and 3 Cryptic. So far it's a pretty balanced set of denial, along with 4 SSS. I don't feel bad if I have to discard a card at some point and snag is in hand. It also turns out to be a great card to pitch to make a pack rat (which in some recent testing is just great). Something to keep in mind, I'm not using any hand disruption, so there's room for some extra stuff.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I love your rant and you were a lot more frank about pointing out how many people are bandwagon riders. I think we should first decide what type of meta we are trying to defeat. Some people are only building for fnms. I would like to focus on gps and protours(not that I would ever make it to that level, but I can dream. )
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I think if we want to try to formulate the "best faerie deck" we need to put in testing.
Question: Who here has Magic Online and has a Faerie deck on it? If someone is willing to start grinding Modern Dailies and Modern Events we can get some good results in. Here's the thing though. If you want to grind a deck for testing, you need to change something in the deck approximately every 5 to 10 rounds. This way you can get some decent testing in with different things you are trying. and with waiting 5 to 10 rounds between changes you get up to 15 to 30 games to try out whatever new tech you are throwing in.
As for anyone who doesn't have Magic Online, or owns exactly zero cards for the deck on Magic Online (like myself) we should probably try to grind whatever events we can in our areas. If in grinding simple things like FNMs we find some other people who are also grinding decks for testing for large events, we can put together our own playtesting groups to try stuff with.
Again, all of this can be done but only if people have the time to. I don't expect anyone to drop their lives for us trying to figure out the Faerie deck if you don't want to.
We should probably go back over the thread and see what cards we have just kind of laughed off, and see if we think any of them deserve reconsidering (in fact, I'll do that myself right now). Best thing about this, is that we aren't doing this for a Standard deck, so this thing isn't rotating away in 2 months
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I would probably play BUG Fae before UG Fae. Having access to both Goyf and Bitterblossom is too good to pass up. However, I personally still prefer Esper because I still love the Gifts sideboard plan.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
So, has anyone seriously tried Fae with good mana?
Mutavault does things that outweigh its non-color. It acts like a faerie, boosting spellstutter or giving you an out for a champion. I'm dabbling with pack rat and it boosts rats too. Very versatile. If it was an issue you could cut river of tears and add a couple urborg, at least mutavault could tap for black then.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
It doesn't give us first advantage because we have to invest a card in it. For example -
T3 opponent's end step cast Dictate (-1 card)
T4 our draw step proc Dictate (+1 card for net 0 cards)
T4 opponent's draw step proc Dictate (+1 card advantage to opponent)
etc
Dictate can be used in some decks, but I would suggest it is incorrect in Faeries.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
This is what I'm talking about! Esper faeries seems to me to be the key to success all around because we could completely shift our game plan post board and catch them off guard and Elesh Norn seems like a ridiculous card alongside an ever growing army of faeries. I'd also add one whip in the SB in that kind of build mainly because it is a nice tag alongside gifts. The only problem I'd find in that color base is trying to justify mainly faeries in the build there are so many viable options in creatures in Esper and I feel like the shell would look a little lack luster in comparison to those who are trying to use faeries tribal theme more so. Two color is the way we'd be able to keep the shell of faeries intact without letting other great cards push their way into our supply of ammo. UBG on the other hand is kind of an exception because it does offer some beastly cards in Abrupt Decay, Goyf, Blossom, and Ooze. Unfortunately and fortunately that is a lot of competition vying for the 2 CMC slot.
Lets play theory for a second if you had a hand in UBg that looked something like (Land, Fetch, Goyf, blossom, Seize, M.Clique, SSS) What would you do on your first two turns and why? (obviously this is a nuts draw, but it allows us to look at a staple game plan) Do you see Lily in a list like this? What kind of removal/denial package would you run and what creatures would you run seeing as we want a solid 12 creatures that will allow us to play the right proactive and reactive gameplan?
A mock list I'd imagine is something like
4 Goyf (obviously)
1 V.Clique (is double blue always gonna be viable for more?)
4 Spellstutter (we don't really need mana leak now with blossom and decay)
3 Mistbind Clique (timewalk for win seems obvious with a beater on the ground and in the sky)
4 Blossom
3 Decay (siding the fourth because we have SSS for lower costed mofo's)
4 Thoughtseize (we want to get rid of whatever isn't as easy to deny with SSS and Decay)
2 IoK (why not make sure we get rid of stuff up to 3 CMC?)
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast?
2 Remand (stall em out and draw)
2/3 Lily (This list wants to deny our control matchup of answers)
Swords or no swords?
What else would you run? I could see mana dorks in a list like this instead of random land we really only want 4CMC for affinity hate in green and mistbind clique so our curve is fairly low.
When I have more time I'll make a full list of both color combos and see what you'd do differently.
I can already tell you in Esper PtE, Lingering souls, and Lily are gonna be there for me because of their overall usability and synergies. Blossom and lingering souls in the same deck seems amazing from the start and being able to be so proactive mainboard and reactive and "Sneaky" post board with gifts would be insanity.
Thanks for listening to my rant before fellas. I just want to pick everyones brain a bit more and get things snowballing into more creative strategies with such a creative group of cards the possibilities seem endless.
Trust me, it is good. I made a list back in February for it and it was amazing. If you draw the Gifts, you win against almost every top deck in the format. Elesh Norn kills every creature in Affinity. It does almost exactly the same thing to Melira Pod with the very small chance of them drawing Shriekmaw without you having a counterspell. Same goes for Twin. And Iona against BGx on black almost completely stops them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
According to Frank Karsten, at 60 card deck with 24 lands needs 14 black sources to get one on T1 and 22 blue sources to get UUU on T4 90% of the time. I don't believe anyone has built a manabase for Modern Faeries that hits those numbers. And the manabases we do use rely heavily on lands that ETB tapped at least some of the time.
Anyway, I'm not looking for arguments for Mutavault. Obviously Mutavault is amazing, and I'm well aware of that. I'm just asking if anyone has tried cleaning up the mana and seeing how that plays.
Bgx has established itself as one of the (if not THE) top deck in modern(again). I honestly haven't played the matchup often(especially the lingering souls version.) I know that we have bombs and expolosives boarded, but souls seems annoying. I also think a deck with 7-8 discard spells post board will be difficult to deal with. (People with more experience in the matchup may disagree.) How would we go about dealing with a meta full of this deck? I'm personally not a big fan of hand disruption against them, but it feels necessary to try to hit abrupt decays and pulses. What do you guys think?
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
My mistake, it doesn't work for bitterblossom. Mutavault are great, but Tec Edge is just not as good to me. Sure, it hammers tron and other manlands, but Cavern ensures I get the guys on the board when I want them for the effect I want.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins