I don't know how much we should go in either direction. Is a tempo based strategy, like the current builds, the correct way, or is Faeries now just worse than playing straight UB Control?
I think this might be an arguable opinion, but I think Faeries is definitely a preferential choice and not one based on playing the strongest deck in the archetype or even in the colour pair.
As for the rest of your post, you bring up a good point about Vendilion Clique. It definitely adds another axis of risk in the sense that you don't want to flip their Bloodbraid into something better, or even the case of BBE into Jace. I think the simplest solution is to bring in Thoughtseize, which the lists tend to avoid because we take a lot of incidental damage and life loss already.
Yea, I liked avoiding Thoughtseize before due to the life loss, but now I think playing some number is correct. Being able to hit the opposing Jace or BBE, or even clearing the way for our Jace is just too good to ignore. I think Jace can now help us close the game out before the life loss becomes an issue, though we can even toss in one or two Collective Brutality if it becomes a problem.
Cutting bitterblossom for thoughtseize seems silly to me. If you're at the point where you're cutting bitterblossoms, you should just play U/B control.
I think that jace will not likely be a mainboard card in faeries. In the board for grindy matchups seems more likely.
At the very least, no deck should be playing both mistbind and jace. You either focus more on tempo with mbc, or more on control with jace.
That being said, I think straight U/B control might be viable now, so don't be afraid to drop the faeries and try it out. It might end up being good.
Cutting bitterblossom for thoughtseize seems silly to me. If you're at the point where you're cutting bitterblossoms, you should just play U/B control.
I think that jace will not likely be a mainboard card in faeries. In the board for grindy matchups seems more likely.
At the very least, no deck should be playing both mistbind and jace. You either focus more on tempo with mbc, or more on control with jace.
That being said, I think straight U/B control might be viable now, so don't be afraid to drop the faeries and try it out. It might end up being good.
I can't think of many better set-ups than Jace hiding behind BB tokens
Cutting bitterblossom for thoughtseize seems silly to me. If you're at the point where you're cutting bitterblossoms, you should just play U/B control.
I think that jace will not likely be a mainboard card in faeries. In the board for grindy matchups seems more likely.
At the very least, no deck should be playing both mistbind and jace. You either focus more on tempo with mbc, or more on control with jace.
That being said, I think straight U/B control might be viable now, so don't be afraid to drop the faeries and try it out. It might end up being good.
I can't think of many better set-ups than Jace hiding behind BB tokens
I agree. I think Faeries is one of the better decks for main board Jace, though probably not in the 4 of amount. I think 3 is probably good, though 2 may turn out to be better after testing.
My other thinking is, do we want to still play cards like Opt, or turn our focus to Serum Visions or Ancestral Vision? Should we be a tap out, play something every turn style deck, with Collective Brutality, Thoughtseize, maybe even some number of Liliana (either version), or a more reactive style deck?
Here's a version of the tap out style I'm talking about:
I know I sound like a broken record, but Ancestral Vision is so divisive for me. We're a deck that either plays a delay game until you win via tokens, or maybe you stall long enough to get a Vendilion/Mistbind on the board and protect it the rest of the game. They aren't a "slam win" closer like most successful decks have, and come with some downsides of their own. I love Ancestral turn 1. If it's my turn 2 play, I would have prefered Bitterblossom or leaving up mana for Spellstutter which can turn into Opt + Push if there is nothing to counter (if you're on the draw for example). Turn 3 I would prefer to play nearly anything else: a counter, removal, Vendilion, Liliana (if you play her). Turn 4 or ahead, it's a death sentence to draw when needing answers. Maybe my meta is too aggressive and my experience is different, but when I always have to side out a card game 2 against all matchups, I begin to question whether it deserves a slot. There's that turn 1 AV that really feels good though.
The closing speed has historically dictated how I build my faeries decks (3 vendlions, 3 mistbind, 3+ tarpits usually). I value being able to end the game in this deck.
On the other hand, jace does not demand we play a fast clock. A U/B midrange or control deck with jace, and perhaps with bitterblossom, is fine. You could play things like tasigur if you wanted more things to hit people with, but as I suggested in my previous post, we're better off either committing more to an aggressive build (with no mainboard jace) or more to a control build (more like U/B control).
What I am missing in the recent lists is something that gives a fast clock and can finish the game when it lands. I mean, we have Bitterblossom, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and maybe Creeping Tar Pit but they are slow in my opinion.
Sure, an unchecked Bitterblossom basically wins all by itself, but how often does that happen? Jace is amazing, but hes more of a facilitator. His -12 takes 9 turns in which he can be answered.
Tar Pits are very mana intensive. 4 Lands to frequently swing for 3 is an expensive plan. I'm not convinced that Vendillion Clique is enough to make that strategy viable.
Am I not seeing the obvious?
We're a slower tempo deck, not fast tempo like a delver deck would be. That said, we play a significantly higher percentage of disruption than most other tempo decks because all of our creatures are also disruptive, and every time we use one we speed up our clock a bit.
That said, I think you may be underestimating how fast our clock really is. Bitterblossom may be a 7-turn clock, but it's a 7-turn clock that is virtually impossible to remove in Modern right now. Tasigur may be a faster clock on paper (5 turns instead of 7) but a single removal spell turns it off entirely, where a removal spell against BB buys at most an extra turn. I've actually come to see Vendilion Clique as my 5-7 copies of BB, since it provides the same 7-turn clock, with the advantage that you can save Vendilion for when your opponent tries to play around your mana leak.
Creeping Tar pit isn't one of our major tempo threats because of the mana investment, but it is a great closer, shaving 1-2 turns off our clock. Besides, when you get to turn 10 and have 7-8 lands in play, what else are you spending all your mana on that you can't afford to send Tar Pit in for 3 extra damage? Many opponents don't really factor in tar pit when they think about how much time they have left, so finding out that you have 1 more turn instead of 3 to answer the board can be a nasty surprise, and often make the difference between a win and a loss.
My stance when I'm playing is "let my clock (BB, Vendilion) do its work, everything else is there to help push my advantage when my opponent tries to answer the clock." Be aware of how demoralizing it is for the opponent to play against this sort of strategy. Every time they don't play a spell to play around countermagic, they get hit for 3 and have to play the same game again next turn. Every time they play into your countermagic, you flash down an answer (SSS, snapcaster, Mistbind) and suddenly your clock is a turn faster than it was before. The opponent has no choice but to let you do what you want, because every time they try to fight it just makes things worse for them.
Pretty much every card in faeries is good at buying time for us to get in another attack, so I think you'd be surprised at how much time you really have to finish the game with this deck.
I added a Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire, as I only have one basic Swamp, and I’d prefer if my fetches got the most possible targets. It may be better to play a 3/2 split of basics, but I’m not sure. All I know is I wanted an extra one to help vs all the Field of Ruin and Path to Exile going around.
The other questionable choice is the full 4 Cryptic Command. I’ll admit, I’m most likely wrong here, I just love this card too much.
What do you think? Is this a good way going forward?
definitely not saying it looks bad but it looks painful. 4 thoughtseize, dismember, bitterblossom. I guess as long as they're preventing more damage than they causing then its irrelevant but that has the potential to be a bunch of self inflicted damage. That being said would love to here your thoughts after playing cause no one yet has really written about how they found jace to actually play out in faeries.
I added a Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire, as I only have one basic Swamp, and I’d prefer if my fetches got the most possible targets. It may be better to play a 3/2 split of basics, but I’m not sure. All I know is I wanted an extra one to help vs all the Field of Ruin and Path to Exile going around.
The other questionable choice is the full 4 Cryptic Command. I’ll admit, I’m most likely wrong here, I just love this card too much.
What do you think? Is this a good way going forward?
I'm going to be kind of critical, but don't interpret that as me not liking the list. I like a lot of the choices you've made (the removal suite and manabase in particular) in this list. Think of this as me saying "based on my experience with the deck, here's some problems I could see you having." As always, though, Faeries is one of the most customizable decks you can play, and different playstyles will want different card choices. At the end of the day you play what works for you.
I've got nothing against running 4 cryptic, it's a great card. That said, 24 lands with no opt is asking to have trouble casting your 4-drops reliably. I'm not a fan of Liliana for a similar reason. You're playing 8 4-drops, so in Liliana games you're going to be "spending" a lot of powerful cards without getting any benefit from them, especially since most of them want to sit in your hand and wait for your opponent to make a move. Liliana is best when you can proactively deploy all your threats and answers before using her to mitigate the downside of her +1. It's really anti-synergistic with Jace and the Faeries package (including cryptic), which want you to be holding cards on your opponent's turn to interact.
It's been a while since I last gave the "discard talk" on here, but the gist of it is that I think discard spells are a necessary evil in this deck, not a strong point like in jund or shadow. True you get information and can proactively deal with an opponent's cards, but you're spending your time and mana to answer a card that you opponent hasn't invested any of their time or mana into, which leaves them free to deploy something else. Think of the early game against a deck like humans (traditionally aggro decks are our hardest matchups). If you T1 discard, you may be able to take their vial or champion of the parish, but they'll just be able to play something else on their turn and you'll begin falling behind on board (that's the most common reason we lose games by far). If you have a fatal push instead, then they have to commit to playing one of their creatures and you trade their entire turn for your turn answering it, which lets you maintain board parity. Discard is also a horrible draw late, while fatal push is still live. Historically, I've had a lot of success playing with no discard in the main, so even though I think it's necessary to pack some now, it's a supplement to my tempo gameplan, not a major piece of it.
If you'd asked me to re-build your maindeck, here's how I'd do it.
and I'd swap the 2 inquisitions with the 2 collective brutality. I'd also recommend playing a 3rd tar pit as a 25th land over the 3rd opt. Bringing Brutality main over inquisition allows us to treat them as duress/disfigure split cards, which takes some pressure off our removal without compromising the discard numbers (it's also a maindeck hedge against burn, since that's still not a fun matchup). This lets us cut one fatal push for an opt, and we can cut 1 thoughtseize and 1 cryptic for the other two (the cryptic and the opts will take a lot of pressure off your manabase). I'm also cutting Liliana for Mana leak, since we want to be holding up answers and forcing our opponent to take the initiative in our interactions (we're playing tempo, not aggro or midrange). You'll notice that I've cut 3 sorcery-speed cards for instants, which allows you to play the flash game that faeries is so well-known (and feared) for. If you still want the 4th cryptic, be sure to play the 25th land and then include it as a 61st card for testing. As you test you'll figure out what card is the one you want the least.
definitely not saying it looks bad but it looks painful. 4 thoughtseize, dismember, bitterblossom. I guess as long as they're preventing more damage than they causing then its irrelevant but that has the potential to be a bunch of self inflicted damage. That being said would love to here your thoughts after playing cause no one yet has really written about how they found jace to actually play out in faeries.
Yea, it may be a little dicey. I wanted Thoughtseize to fight opposing Jaces and Bloodbraid Elf, a Dismember to take down any big threats, or dorks that are hard to Push (I'm thinking Hazoret may see more play in some red decks out of the sideboard, I know a few locals who like the idea), and Bitterblossom is good at protecting us/ planeswalkers and just grinding. It's also good to land a Bitterblossom after a Thoughtseize, cause you have the chance to just run away with the game. Also, it's not as if we'll cast all four Thoughtseizes, or even all the Bitterblossoms in a game, especially with Liliana and Jace to filter through them.
I just wanted to be doing something proactive right now, until we know which decks are better or worse and what threats get played, I didn't want to have Spell Snares or random counterspells yet. It's better to make the opponent react to you. Everything in the deck is good against the majority of decks, with enough interaction to compete. I'm hoping to get some games in between draft rounds at FNM tonight, so I'll keep things updated.
People write how they feel about jace in the discord all the time.
Daut - Today at 11:31 AM
Jace gives us insane draw power in his 0
A pseudo-lock with his +2 to make sure we can interact with our opponents cards
A pseudo-lock with mistbind clique and his -1 ability
As well as a game finisher
Not to mention he can shuffle away bad excess bitterblossoms with a fetch and a 0 activation
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Axel_kh - Today at 11:46 AM
His -1 can work with mistbind, spellstutter, snapcaster...
Daut - Today at 11:46 AM
It also gives us a win condition in the main against infinite lifegain.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
People write how they feel about jace in the discord all the time.
Daut - Today at 11:31 AM
Jace gives us insane draw power in his 0
A pseudo-lock with his +2 to make sure we can interact with our opponents cards
A pseudo-lock with mistbind clique and his -1 ability
As well as a game finisher
Not to mention he can shuffle away bad excess bitterblossoms with a fetch and a 0 activation
NEW MESSAGES
Axel_kh - Today at 11:46 AM
His -1 can work with mistbind, spellstutter, snapcaster...
Daut - Today at 11:46 AM
It also gives us a win condition in the main against infinite lifegain.
They're not wrong. The problem we have is that Faeries lacks an endgame finisher other than Mistbind (if it can even be considered that). The question is not "is Jace strong?", that's undeniable. The question is whether adding another card into our 4 slot that isn't a closer, worth it for this deck. If it is, what modifications are needed? Faeries disrupts very well. It delays very well. But does it finish games well? In my experience, if it wins, it's been a long game and you win by slowly chipping at the opponent. This is precisely why the deck is not among the top of the format, because the longer your game plan (without any form of lock on the opponent) the more time the opponent has to find answers and recover.
Piproberts is streaming his list of Faeries on twitch and he's found that cutting cryptic command is where he wants to be, as far as dealing with the abundance of 4cmc cards; he talks about how you want to be able to race the field and that mistbind helps doing that while jace bounces problem cards and digs for your answers. You have to find the right time to land the jace on the right turn in the faeries deck most times though.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I added a Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire, as I only have one basic Swamp, and I’d prefer if my fetches got the most possible targets. It may be better to play a 3/2 split of basics, but I’m not sure. All I know is I wanted an extra one to help vs all the Field of Ruin and Path to Exile going around.
The other questionable choice is the full 4 Cryptic Command. I’ll admit, I’m most likely wrong here, I just love this card too much.
What do you think? Is this a good way going forward?
I'm going to be kind of critical, but don't interpret that as me not liking the list. I like a lot of the choices you've made (the removal suite and manabase in particular) in this list. Think of this as me saying "based on my experience with the deck, here's some problems I could see you having." As always, though, Faeries is one of the most customizable decks you can play, and different playstyles will want different card choices. At the end of the day you play what works for you.
I've got nothing against running 4 cryptic, it's a great card. That said, 24 lands with no opt is asking to have trouble casting your 4-drops reliably. I'm not a fan of Liliana for a similar reason. You're playing 8 4-drops, so in Liliana games you're going to be "spending" a lot of powerful cards without getting any benefit from them, especially since most of them want to sit in your hand and wait for your opponent to make a move. Liliana is best when you can proactively deploy all your threats and answers before using her to mitigate the downside of her +1. It's really anti-synergistic with Jace and the Faeries package (including cryptic), which want you to be holding cards on your opponent's turn to interact.
It's been a while since I last gave the "discard talk" on here, but the gist of it is that I think discard spells are a necessary evil in this deck, not a strong point like in jund or shadow. True you get information and can proactively deal with an opponent's cards, but you're spending your time and mana to answer a card that you opponent hasn't invested any of their time or mana into, which leaves them free to deploy something else. Think of the early game against a deck like humans (traditionally aggro decks are our hardest matchups). If you T1 discard, you may be able to take their vial or champion of the parish, but they'll just be able to play something else on their turn and you'll begin falling behind on board (that's the most common reason we lose games by far). If you have a fatal push instead, then they have to commit to playing one of their creatures and you trade their entire turn for your turn answering it, which lets you maintain board parity. Discard is also a horrible draw late, while fatal push is still live. Historically, I've had a lot of success playing with no discard in the main, so even though I think it's necessary to pack some now, it's a supplement to my tempo gameplan, not a major piece of it.
If you'd asked me to re-build your maindeck, here's how I'd do it.
and I'd swap the 2 inquisitions with the 2 collective brutality. I'd also recommend playing a 3rd tar pit as a 25th land over the 3rd opt. Bringing Brutality main over inquisition allows us to treat them as duress/disfigure split cards, which takes some pressure off our removal without compromising the discard numbers (it's also a maindeck hedge against burn, since that's still not a fun matchup). This lets us cut one fatal push for an opt, and we can cut 1 thoughtseize and 1 cryptic for the other two (the cryptic and the opts will take a lot of pressure off your manabase). I'm also cutting Liliana for Mana leak, since we want to be holding up answers and forcing our opponent to take the initiative in our interactions (we're playing tempo, not aggro or midrange). You'll notice that I've cut 3 sorcery-speed cards for instants, which allows you to play the flash game that faeries is so well-known (and feared) for. If you still want the 4th cryptic, be sure to play the 25th land and then include it as a 61st card for testing. As you test you'll figure out what card is the one you want the least.
Thanks for the critique bud!
I had worries about not playing Opt, I thought about it, I tried to make it work in the current list, and just decided to go for the discard spells and be proactive. I get your point on the discard spells, and I was probably a little too focused on 'force through Bitterblossom and Jace, or take their own Jace' thinking. I also agree with your thoughts on Liliana. Looking back now, it seems like i'm trying to make the deck more Jund like, which isn't the way to go.
I'm not the hugest person for Collective Brutality though. In the past, I haven't liked it as much in the maindeck, as I'd prefer to hold up a counterspell, or a catch all removal spell, and the escalate on Brutality sometimes meant awkward positions in the early game if you needed to deal with something quick. I've found it to be sub-optimal in some matchups, such as Humans (their stuff can grow out of range, and they have few spells), U/x control decks (two mana sorcery speed half Duress is kinda mediocre), where as I'd rather as many of my maindeck cards do something, regardless of the opponent's deck. I've found that vs Burn, game 1 is still just so bad regardless of Brutality in the main (unless its 2+, then you're good).
I do want to play the full set of Cryptic Commands though, it's a personal preference (it's gotten me out of many jams, and I love the card to death). That being said, I do like your idea of playing 25 lands. I'll see if I can make that work in a future list (of course, that means I'll need a third signed foil Tar Pit #humblebag)
I took some of your advice, and although it looks weird to me to only be playing 3 Fatal Push and 3 Opt, it's completely possible that it's correct. I also hedged a bit on the counterspells. Mana Leak is good early, and Logic Knot is good late, especially with the extra fetchland and cheap spells. I may have made a mistake cutting the Inquisitions completely out, but I think Thoughtseize is the discard spell I'd want the most, and without Liliana, we won't be discarding dead copies. I think 4 discard spells looks right. It's also totally possible that I'm misinterpreting your ideas and internalizing biases, but who knows? What do you think of this new version?
Now that we have Jace, could it be a good idea to try Sword of Feast and Famine again? As a replacement for Mistbind
I mean it's a (tiny) bit of relieve to our mana curve and free to equip if it connects. It also allows us to animate our Tar Pits earlier due to the land untap.
At the same time it will push towards the +2 Jace softlock and give one of our quirky dudes some beef.
Question is how easy it is to protect...
Question is more; which m/u does this solve? MBC beats big mana decks, humans and helps us race. Not really sure where SoFaF really helps us, to be honest.
I took some of your advice, and although it looks weird to me to only be playing 3 Fatal Push and 3 Opt, it's completely possible that it's correct. I also hedged a bit on the counterspells. Mana Leak is good early, and Logic Knot is good late, especially with the extra fetchland and cheap spells. I may have made a mistake cutting the Inquisitions completely out, but I think Thoughtseize is the discard spell I'd want the most, and without Liliana, we won't be discarding dead copies. I think 4 discard spells looks right. It's also totally possible that I'm misinterpreting your ideas and internalizing biases, but who knows? What do you think of this new version?
New version looks pretty solid. It looks like you caught what I was saying. I'd love to hear how it performs for you.
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Yea, I liked avoiding Thoughtseize before due to the life loss, but now I think playing some number is correct. Being able to hit the opposing Jace or BBE, or even clearing the way for our Jace is just too good to ignore. I think Jace can now help us close the game out before the life loss becomes an issue, though we can even toss in one or two Collective Brutality if it becomes a problem.
Collective brutality will be a must.
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I think that jace will not likely be a mainboard card in faeries. In the board for grindy matchups seems more likely.
At the very least, no deck should be playing both mistbind and jace. You either focus more on tempo with mbc, or more on control with jace.
That being said, I think straight U/B control might be viable now, so don't be afraid to drop the faeries and try it out. It might end up being good.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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I agree. I think Faeries is one of the better decks for main board Jace, though probably not in the 4 of amount. I think 3 is probably good, though 2 may turn out to be better after testing.
My other thinking is, do we want to still play cards like Opt, or turn our focus to Serum Visions or Ancestral Vision? Should we be a tap out, play something every turn style deck, with Collective Brutality, Thoughtseize, maybe even some number of Liliana (either version), or a more reactive style deck?
Here's a version of the tap out style I'm talking about:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Fatal Push
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cryptic Command
1 Hero’s Downfall
1 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Collective Brutality
4 Polluted Delta
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
2 Watery Grave
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
And here's the more reactive build:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Fatal Push
4 Cryptic Command
4 Opt
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Hero’s Downfall
1 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Countersquall
4 Polluted Delta
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
2 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
On the other hand, jace does not demand we play a fast clock. A U/B midrange or control deck with jace, and perhaps with bitterblossom, is fine. You could play things like tasigur if you wanted more things to hit people with, but as I suggested in my previous post, we're better off either committing more to an aggressive build (with no mainboard jace) or more to a control build (more like U/B control).
We're a slower tempo deck, not fast tempo like a delver deck would be. That said, we play a significantly higher percentage of disruption than most other tempo decks because all of our creatures are also disruptive, and every time we use one we speed up our clock a bit.
That said, I think you may be underestimating how fast our clock really is. Bitterblossom may be a 7-turn clock, but it's a 7-turn clock that is virtually impossible to remove in Modern right now. Tasigur may be a faster clock on paper (5 turns instead of 7) but a single removal spell turns it off entirely, where a removal spell against BB buys at most an extra turn. I've actually come to see Vendilion Clique as my 5-7 copies of BB, since it provides the same 7-turn clock, with the advantage that you can save Vendilion for when your opponent tries to play around your mana leak.
Creeping Tar pit isn't one of our major tempo threats because of the mana investment, but it is a great closer, shaving 1-2 turns off our clock. Besides, when you get to turn 10 and have 7-8 lands in play, what else are you spending all your mana on that you can't afford to send Tar Pit in for 3 extra damage? Many opponents don't really factor in tar pit when they think about how much time they have left, so finding out that you have 1 more turn instead of 3 to answer the board can be a nasty surprise, and often make the difference between a win and a loss.
My stance when I'm playing is "let my clock (BB, Vendilion) do its work, everything else is there to help push my advantage when my opponent tries to answer the clock." Be aware of how demoralizing it is for the opponent to play against this sort of strategy. Every time they don't play a spell to play around countermagic, they get hit for 3 and have to play the same game again next turn. Every time they play into your countermagic, you flash down an answer (SSS, snapcaster, Mistbind) and suddenly your clock is a turn faster than it was before. The opponent has no choice but to let you do what you want, because every time they try to fight it just makes things worse for them.
Pretty much every card in faeries is good at buying time for us to get in another attack, so I think you'd be surprised at how much time you really have to finish the game with this deck.
Jace Faeries
4 Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures (10)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Mistbind Clique
Spells (20)
4 Fatal Push
4 Cryptic Command
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hero’s Downfall
1 Dismember
Lands (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Island
2 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
Sideboard
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana’s Defeat
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ravenous Trap
I added a Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire, as I only have one basic Swamp, and I’d prefer if my fetches got the most possible targets. It may be better to play a 3/2 split of basics, but I’m not sure. All I know is I wanted an extra one to help vs all the Field of Ruin and Path to Exile going around.
The other questionable choice is the full 4 Cryptic Command. I’ll admit, I’m most likely wrong here, I just love this card too much.
What do you think? Is this a good way going forward?
I'm going to be kind of critical, but don't interpret that as me not liking the list. I like a lot of the choices you've made (the removal suite and manabase in particular) in this list. Think of this as me saying "based on my experience with the deck, here's some problems I could see you having." As always, though, Faeries is one of the most customizable decks you can play, and different playstyles will want different card choices. At the end of the day you play what works for you.
I've got nothing against running 4 cryptic, it's a great card. That said, 24 lands with no opt is asking to have trouble casting your 4-drops reliably. I'm not a fan of Liliana for a similar reason. You're playing 8 4-drops, so in Liliana games you're going to be "spending" a lot of powerful cards without getting any benefit from them, especially since most of them want to sit in your hand and wait for your opponent to make a move. Liliana is best when you can proactively deploy all your threats and answers before using her to mitigate the downside of her +1. It's really anti-synergistic with Jace and the Faeries package (including cryptic), which want you to be holding cards on your opponent's turn to interact.
It's been a while since I last gave the "discard talk" on here, but the gist of it is that I think discard spells are a necessary evil in this deck, not a strong point like in jund or shadow. True you get information and can proactively deal with an opponent's cards, but you're spending your time and mana to answer a card that you opponent hasn't invested any of their time or mana into, which leaves them free to deploy something else. Think of the early game against a deck like humans (traditionally aggro decks are our hardest matchups). If you T1 discard, you may be able to take their vial or champion of the parish, but they'll just be able to play something else on their turn and you'll begin falling behind on board (that's the most common reason we lose games by far). If you have a fatal push instead, then they have to commit to playing one of their creatures and you trade their entire turn for your turn answering it, which lets you maintain board parity. Discard is also a horrible draw late, while fatal push is still live. Historically, I've had a lot of success playing with no discard in the main, so even though I think it's necessary to pack some now, it's a supplement to my tempo gameplan, not a major piece of it.
If you'd asked me to re-build your maindeck, here's how I'd do it.
-2 Liliana
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Fatal push
-1 Cryptic Command
+3 opt
+2 mana leak
and I'd swap the 2 inquisitions with the 2 collective brutality. I'd also recommend playing a 3rd tar pit as a 25th land over the 3rd opt. Bringing Brutality main over inquisition allows us to treat them as duress/disfigure split cards, which takes some pressure off our removal without compromising the discard numbers (it's also a maindeck hedge against burn, since that's still not a fun matchup). This lets us cut one fatal push for an opt, and we can cut 1 thoughtseize and 1 cryptic for the other two (the cryptic and the opts will take a lot of pressure off your manabase). I'm also cutting Liliana for Mana leak, since we want to be holding up answers and forcing our opponent to take the initiative in our interactions (we're playing tempo, not aggro or midrange). You'll notice that I've cut 3 sorcery-speed cards for instants, which allows you to play the flash game that faeries is so well-known (and feared) for. If you still want the 4th cryptic, be sure to play the 25th land and then include it as a 61st card for testing. As you test you'll figure out what card is the one you want the least.
Yea, it may be a little dicey. I wanted Thoughtseize to fight opposing Jaces and Bloodbraid Elf, a Dismember to take down any big threats, or dorks that are hard to Push (I'm thinking Hazoret may see more play in some red decks out of the sideboard, I know a few locals who like the idea), and Bitterblossom is good at protecting us/ planeswalkers and just grinding. It's also good to land a Bitterblossom after a Thoughtseize, cause you have the chance to just run away with the game. Also, it's not as if we'll cast all four Thoughtseizes, or even all the Bitterblossoms in a game, especially with Liliana and Jace to filter through them.
I just wanted to be doing something proactive right now, until we know which decks are better or worse and what threats get played, I didn't want to have Spell Snares or random counterspells yet. It's better to make the opponent react to you. Everything in the deck is good against the majority of decks, with enough interaction to compete. I'm hoping to get some games in between draft rounds at FNM tonight, so I'll keep things updated.
Daut - Today at 11:31 AM
Jace gives us insane draw power in his 0
A pseudo-lock with his +2 to make sure we can interact with our opponents cards
A pseudo-lock with mistbind clique and his -1 ability
As well as a game finisher
Not to mention he can shuffle away bad excess bitterblossoms with a fetch and a 0 activation
NEW MESSAGES
Axel_kh - Today at 11:46 AM
His -1 can work with mistbind, spellstutter, snapcaster...
Daut - Today at 11:46 AM
It also gives us a win condition in the main against infinite lifegain.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
They're not wrong. The problem we have is that Faeries lacks an endgame finisher other than Mistbind (if it can even be considered that). The question is not "is Jace strong?", that's undeniable. The question is whether adding another card into our 4 slot that isn't a closer, worth it for this deck. If it is, what modifications are needed? Faeries disrupts very well. It delays very well. But does it finish games well? In my experience, if it wins, it's been a long game and you win by slowly chipping at the opponent. This is precisely why the deck is not among the top of the format, because the longer your game plan (without any form of lock on the opponent) the more time the opponent has to find answers and recover.
K lets revise that to no one has really shared jace experiences here (not everyone is on the discord)
I second this. I do most of my posting here while I'm at work between calls, and don't have access to Discord.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Thanks for the critique bud!
I had worries about not playing Opt, I thought about it, I tried to make it work in the current list, and just decided to go for the discard spells and be proactive. I get your point on the discard spells, and I was probably a little too focused on 'force through Bitterblossom and Jace, or take their own Jace' thinking. I also agree with your thoughts on Liliana. Looking back now, it seems like i'm trying to make the deck more Jund like, which isn't the way to go.
I'm not the hugest person for Collective Brutality though. In the past, I haven't liked it as much in the maindeck, as I'd prefer to hold up a counterspell, or a catch all removal spell, and the escalate on Brutality sometimes meant awkward positions in the early game if you needed to deal with something quick. I've found it to be sub-optimal in some matchups, such as Humans (their stuff can grow out of range, and they have few spells), U/x control decks (two mana sorcery speed half Duress is kinda mediocre), where as I'd rather as many of my maindeck cards do something, regardless of the opponent's deck. I've found that vs Burn, game 1 is still just so bad regardless of Brutality in the main (unless its 2+, then you're good).
I do want to play the full set of Cryptic Commands though, it's a personal preference (it's gotten me out of many jams, and I love the card to death). That being said, I do like your idea of playing 25 lands. I'll see if I can make that work in a future list (of course, that means I'll need a third signed foil Tar Pit #humblebag)
4 Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creatures (9)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Mistbind Clique
Spells (20)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Thoughtseize
3 Opt
3 Fatal Push
1 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hero’s Downfall
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Island
2 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana’s Defeat
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ravenous Trap
I took some of your advice, and although it looks weird to me to only be playing 3 Fatal Push and 3 Opt, it's completely possible that it's correct. I also hedged a bit on the counterspells. Mana Leak is good early, and Logic Knot is good late, especially with the extra fetchland and cheap spells. I may have made a mistake cutting the Inquisitions completely out, but I think Thoughtseize is the discard spell I'd want the most, and without Liliana, we won't be discarding dead copies. I think 4 discard spells looks right. It's also totally possible that I'm misinterpreting your ideas and internalizing biases, but who knows? What do you think of this new version?
Question is more; which m/u does this solve? MBC beats big mana decks, humans and helps us race. Not really sure where SoFaF really helps us, to be honest.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678New version looks pretty solid. It looks like you caught what I was saying. I'd love to hear how it performs for you.