Nice report. I'm going to try Dodecapod soon to see if it gives me enough points vs. Jund. The Abzan anecdote sold me! For the record, I don't bring in the Mountain for that matchup, since the games generally go long. Also, Mono-Green Stompy is a real deck (if a horrible one), not a homebrew. You never felt like you were flooding on Bolts with Seal and double FB? Why not a Tarfire to diversify?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
abzan and coco have always been big here. I like seal vs coco and forked bolt is awesome against affinity, coco, spirit tokens and even infect. Never felt like flooding to me.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
The 14th Ill be going to a 70+ people tournament. I know for a fact that 25% will be playing Tron, even after the banning of Eye.
Any ideas how I could wedge the main or side for a better Tron matchup without dismantling the balance to much? My first thought was cutting Forked Bolt for either another Mana Leak or a Spell Snare.
We already have a good matchup against Tron. Spell Snare is not great against them. Simic Charm, Denial, and Scour are all cards you can max out on in the main to improve your matchup without hurting yourself elsewhere. Make sure you keep 3 Moons in the side, and pack a full Revelry package of 2 Grudge and 2 other artifact removal spells, and you should have a great run.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So today I played a few games vs Jund. Bad matchup I know. What made it worse are the slow starts. If this deck doesn't explode out the gate with a creature, I feel like I'm playing from behind from T1 on. Is my assessment correct?
So we would mulligan until we get an explosive start?
I want to add another land to the main deck. Should it be basic mountain or wooded foothills?
This is covered in the primer. You should read that before posting here, since it answers most FAQs.
@tradejoe: You're mostly right in your assessment. Mulling kind of sucks against them too, since an IOK can end us if we go to 5 and they have a removal spell. To hedge against this deck, you can shore up the mainboard, running Snapcaster and Curiosity. Also make sure to pack four Huntmasters and three Moons in the side. We get a lot better post-board.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I want to add another land to the main deck. Should it be basic mountain or wooded foothills?
This is covered in the primer. You should read that before posting here, since it answers most FAQs.
@tradejoe: You're mostly right in your assessment. Mulling kind of sucks against them too, since an IOK can end us if we go to 5 and they have a removal spell. To hedge against this deck, you can shore up the mainboard, running Snapcaster and Curiosity. Also make sure to pack four Huntmasters and three Moons in the side. We get a lot better post-board.
I meant in general. Should generally mull for that explosive hand? Is there ever a time where we want to keep a slower no threat hand?
I want to add another land to the main deck. Should it be basic mountain or wooded foothills?
This is covered in the primer. You should read that before posting here, since it answers most FAQs.
@tradejoe: You're mostly right in your assessment. Mulling kind of sucks against them too, since an IOK can end us if we go to 5 and they have a removal spell. To hedge against this deck, you can shore up the mainboard, running Snapcaster and Curiosity. Also make sure to pack four Huntmasters and three Moons in the side. We get a lot better post-board.
I meant in general. Should generally mull for that explosive hand? Is there ever a time where we want to keep a slower no threat hand?
On the draw, I actually like threatless hands against them. Something with a couple Serum Visions, two lands, a Denial, and a Bolt is a definite keep. These kinds of hands "dodge" IoK and Thoughtseize, causing those spells to miss on creatures.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Learning when to mulligan and when to keep is perhaps one of the most important skills to learn in this deck (or any deck really). Our game plan can change drastically depending on the match-up. You might be pressing a more aggressive role against some, while you might be leaning on disruption during others.
Since game 1 often ends up being a race, unless I know exactly what my opponent is playing, I almost always auto-mull a hand that has no threat in it. Unless it has some amount of dig spells and early interaction. A hand that has a threat and "relevant" interaction is really how you want your opening hand to look like. I say "relevant" here because each deck you play against requires different interaction. It really just takes some time putting in games with this deck to become more and more comfortable at looking at your opener and evaluating the question "Can I win with this start?"
I have to say that my favorite opener (against an unknown) is: 2 fetches, 1 Thoughtscour, 1 Hooting Mandrills, 1 Stubborn Denial, 1 Disrupting Shoal, 1 Serum Visions.
It allows you a turn 2 Mandrills with Stubborn Denial backup on the turn you summon him, with Shoal/Serum Visions as interaction for their turn 1 play.
So Jason;with the mountain in the sideboard I see you would want it to get the Blood Moon on time. But then that would mean you swap it out for Breeding Pool only in those instances?
Also in your 2nd article from the states report you point out your mistake of siding out free cards and information in the form of Probe when you faced infect. But then you'd end up @ 64 cards main. By my own rationale I figured I'd cut Snapcaster Mage as the 7th card (1-3 Thought and 4-6 Stubborn) and bring in 2 Blood Moon, 2 Grudges, 2 Pyroclasms and the Mountain in.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
TLDR: Why not run a basic island or forest in the basic mountain's (Jordan's most recent sideboard addition) place? It replaces Breeding Pool just as well- if not better when you want a fast Blood Moon, and enable Huntmaster of the Fells about as easily.
I have always run 18 lands in RUG delver. This probably stems from when I was running UR delver. I recently began to test 17 lands, and thus far I have been impressed by the deck's ability to run smoothly, while fitting an extra action card in the deck. Jordan's mention of the two respective land counts when he spoke of basic mountain in his most recent article (part of this was in comments0, has made me very interested in discussing the land.
I hate basic mountain in this deck. I hate it a lot. The reason is two-fold. Basic mountain is nearly useless with and against Blood Moon. Unless you land one of each basic by turn three (or have more basics in hand- a bit unlikely), your Blood Moon will cut you off of a colour. Being cut off of a colour is not fun, and I don't want to build my manabase around cutting myself off of colours. The second part is Simic Charm. UG. You will never cast a Simic Charm with two lands if one of those lands is a basic mountain. NEVER. I love Simic Charm. It is one of the best reasons to play RUG over other URX decks. We often end up on two lands. Therefore, basic mountain is bad.
Now I will talk about Breeding Pool. Breeding Pool is the best and worst land in the deck. How many hands have you kept with a fetch as your only land? If the other cards in the hands consisted of mostly blue and green cards, you probably went to find that one-of Breeding Pool. Let's say you mulled to six and kept fetch, delver, goyf, shoal, visions, denial. That sort of hand has justified running Breeding Pool time and time again for me. This is important for me because I initially hated Breeding Pool. We boast of our Burn matchup to Grixis players who have to fetch, shock; fetch, shock to cast their spells, but Breeding Pool does the same to us! Without that mountain (which kills Simic Charm), Breeding Pool will probably make us shock twice. It also plays quite badly with Blood Moon. I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. Breeding Pool makes this impossible when it shows up.
Overall, I would say that Breeding Pool has earned its slot for me due to the tight margins of mana that we run on.
Mountain has not, but I have never given it a chance. It is simply too clunky.
Then Jordan said he put a mountain in his sideboard.
I thought this was a waste of a slot. Why would you want a land that kills one of our best spells? T1 mountain also notably prevents us from playing the highly coveted T2 Hooting Mandrills with Stubborn Denial up. After more thoroughly reading the articles though, I have come to appreciate this idea.
The mountain is said to come in in two scenarios: When you want to land Blood Moon ASAP, and when missing a land drop will get you killed. I can see this being useful against Tron, GBX, decks that try to get away with five colours, and decks that can't use R. The second point applies to aggressive decks that will kill you if you miss a beat.
Now that I understand the rationale behind the basic land, I kind of like it. Having just switched to 17 lands, I can imagine needing an extra to hit early land drops reliably. I think this is most relevant when you board in Huntmaster of the Fells. Our resident four drop has given even my 18 land deck trouble sometimes, so the extra land could be helpful. I won't know until I run more games with 17 lands.
My concerns about Simic Charm being turned off are also gone as long as the Breeding Pool stays in. Adding a land doesn't worsen your mana (unless you keep bad hands because of it). Even if the Breeding Pool comes out, the interactive nature of post-board games makes hitting a third land, and turning Simic Charm back on, more likely.
The part of this that I am most interested in is the role of the mountain to land Blood Moon early. Jordan said that he often takes out Breeding Pool for this purpose. The mountain replaces Breeding Pool because you can't go Breeding Pool, island, forest, Blood Moon. Mountain enables this line. But why stop with mountain? I think that the other basic lands could do an even better job of this. As I said above, I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. The downside to this is that you have to shock, while mountain allows your life total to remain intact. But our life total is not that relevant in most of the matchups that call for early Blood Moon. Abzan and Jund spend most of their time not applying pressure, and dedicated control decks (Tron, Grixis, UW) don't know what pressure is. I think the two life is well worth the versatility here. Especially because you are decently likely to draw a shock in the first three lands. The extra island/forest also will tap for the right colour if drawn later.
What do you guys think of changing the basic mountain to a forest or island? Am I still missing something? Also, shout out to anyone who took the time to read that.
TLDR: Why not run a basic island or forest in the basic mountain's (Jordan's most recent sideboard addition) place? It replaces Breeding Pool just as well- if not better when you want a fast Blood Moon, and enable Huntmaster of the Fells about as easily.
I have always run 18 lands in RUG delver. This probably stems from when I was running UR delver. I recently began to test 17 lands, and thus far I have been impressed by the deck's ability to run smoothly, while fitting an extra action card in the deck. Jordan's mention of the two respective land counts when he spoke of basic mountain in his most recent article (part of this was in comments0, has made me very interested in discussing the land.
I hate basic mountain in this deck. I hate it a lot. The reason is two-fold. Basic mountain is nearly useless with and against Blood Moon. Unless you land one of each basic by turn three (or have more basics in hand- a bit unlikely), your Blood Moon will cut you off of a colour. Being cut off of a colour is not fun, and I don't want to build my manabase around cutting myself off of colours. The second part is Simic Charm. UG. You will never cast a Simic Charm with two lands if one of those lands is a basic mountain. NEVER. I love Simic Charm. It is one of the best reasons to play RUG over other URX decks. We often end up on two lands. Therefore, basic mountain is bad.
Now I will talk about Breeding Pool. Breeding Pool is the best and worst land in the deck. How many hands have you kept with a fetch as your only land? If the other cards in the hands consisted of mostly blue and green cards, you probably went to find that one-of Breeding Pool. Let's say you mulled to six and kept fetch, delver, goyf, shoal, visions, denial. That sort of hand has justified running Breeding Pool time and time again for me. This is important for me because I initially hated Breeding Pool. We boast of our Burn matchup to Grixis players who have to fetch, shock; fetch, shock to cast their spells, but Breeding Pool does the same to us! Without that mountain (which kills Simic Charm), Breeding Pool will probably make us shock twice. It also plays quite badly with Blood Moon. I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. Breeding Pool makes this impossible when it shows up.
Overall, I would say that Breeding Pool has earned its slot for me due to the tight margins of mana that we run on.
Mountain has not, but I have never given it a chance. It is simply too clunky.
Then Jordan said he put a mountain in his sideboard.
I thought this was a waste of a slot. Why would you want a land that kills one of our best spells? T1 mountain also notably prevents us from playing the highly coveted T2 Hooting Mandrills with Stubborn Denial up. After more thoroughly reading the articles though, I have come to appreciate this idea.
The mountain is said to come in in two scenarios: When you want to land Blood Moon ASAP, and when missing a land drop will get you killed. I can see this being useful against Tron, GBX, decks that try to get away with five colours, and decks that can't use R. The second point applies to aggressive decks that will kill you if you miss a beat.
Now that I understand the rationale behind the basic land, I kind of like it. Having just switched to 17 lands, I can imagine needing an extra to hit early land drops reliably. I think this is most relevant when you board in Huntmaster of the Fells. Our resident four drop has given even my 18 land deck trouble sometimes, so the extra land could be helpful. I won't know until I run more games with 17 lands.
My concerns about Simic Charm being turned off are also gone as long as the Breeding Pool stays in. Adding a land doesn't worsen your mana (unless you keep bad hands because of it). Even if the Breeding Pool comes out, the interactive nature of post-board games makes hitting a third land, and turning Simic Charm back on, more likely.
The part of this that I am most interested in is the role of the mountain to land Blood Moon early. Jordan said that he often takes out Breeding Pool for this purpose. The mountain replaces Breeding Pool because you can't go Breeding Pool, island, forest, Blood Moon. Mountain enables this line. But why stop with mountain? I think that the other basic lands could do an even better job of this. As I said above, I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. The downside to this is that you have to shock, while mountain allows your life total to remain intact. But our life total is not that relevant in most of the matchups that call for early Blood Moon. Abzan and Jund spend most of their time not applying pressure, and dedicated control decks (Tron, Grixis, UW) don't know what pressure is. I think the two life is well worth the versatility here. Especially because you are decently likely to draw a shock in the first three lands. The extra island/forest also will tap for the right colour if drawn later.
What do you guys think of changing the basic mountain to a forest or island? Am I still missing something? Also, shout out to anyone who took the time to read that.
To specify, Mountain is for when we bring in Huntmaster against aggro decks. We also bring Huntmaster in against midrange decks, and we don't really want an 18th land in those matchups - sometimes, we even want to board one out and play 16 (vs. UWx and Abzan, grindy decks that rely on Path to Exile to remove our Delvers early). You mentioned Jund in your post - it's incorrect to bring in another land against that deck, but I like to swap Pool for the Mountain there because it improves Moons. As you said, Pool makes Moons pretty bad, and I only bring in the Mountain and Moon AND keep Pool in a few matchups for which we want Huntmaster and Moon and expect to get aggressed early, like Suicide Zoo and other greedy aggro decks.
Since the main reason for playing a basic in the side was to shore up aggressive matchups, I decided on Mountain over Island because you can fetch it without shocking yourself. Against decks like Burn and Affinity, you absolutely have to get a red source untapped in most games so you can start removing their threats. We also have a ton of red cards in the deck post-board against these decks, as well as colorless-requiring cards like Goyf, Mandrills, and Leak, so the Mountain rarely doesn't tap for any mana. Mountain also shines when we bring in Blood Moon against aggressive decks. Consider this not-unlikely scenario: turn one fetch Island and play Delver/Serum; turn two fetch Forest and play Goyf/Leak/Scour+Mandrills; turn three fetch a red source and play Moon. Alternatively, I often cast a Bolt on turn one or two against many aggressive decks, so Island or even Forest can be the third land for that Moon (something like turn one fetch a red source and Bolt; turn two fetch Forest and Goyf; turn three fetch Island and Moon). Against aggro, it's nice to be able to get a red source that doesn't shock us, since Vents or Stomping Ground will just be a Mountain once Moon resolves anyway.
As for Mountain interfering with Simic Charm: Charm isn't a card we cast early, and it isn't a card we even keep in against some aggressive decks, like Burn. We also usually want to pitch Charm to Shoal against most aggressive decks a good chunk of the time, since the Snare effect is so great against those decks and we don't have much removal or Tasigurs to worry about. By the time we do want to cast Simic against them, we'll likely have 3+ lands in my experience, so having a Mountain on the board won't change anything. Keep in mind that boarded games invariably take longer in Modern (and in Magic generally), since people board out parts of their linear strategy - or chunks of less-relevant interaction - for more effective interaction. When people interact more, they kill each other more slowly, and everyone has time to draw into more lands, including us. That can also mean we want all the fetches we draw to still find something; I can see cutting a fetchland for the sideboard Mountain in postboard games against something like UW Control, where we're guaranteed to make a ton of land drops. The only argument against that strategy is that Breeding Pool might slow down our Moons, so it's probably better to cut Pool than fetch in that case, but it's something to keep in mind regardless as the meta changes and new decks appear (something similar that we don't want Moon against could show up eventually).
That's the rationale behind having an 18th land in the sideboard, but that land doesn't have to be Mountain, by any means. Another land can definitely work in its place, and I recommend basic Island for those wary of what Mountain can do to some of our openers. A second Forest has all the same problems as Mountain and more, since it doesn't have any of its benefits other than being an 18th land. (Do you expect to cast Blood Moon off a shock and two Islands and then hope you naturally draw one of your two Forests? Seems like way too narrow a reason to run Forest over Mountain to me.) I can also see a Wooded Foothills or even a Sulfur Falls in that spot (both options explained in the primer - fetch helps our mana against faster decks, but hurts against attrition; Falls blows as the only land in an opener, but untaps under Choke and provides painless red once the game gets going). I reason that since it's an "extra" land, opening a Mountain-only hand would have been a mulligan if we'd played any card besides a land in that sideboard slot anyway. But there's certainly an argument for getting a "free" opportunity to not mulligan in that instance if we play Island or Foothills in the side instead.
For the record, I would never advise anyone play Mountain in the mainboard in this deck. That's always wrong. Also for the record, Breeding Pool is a necessary evil in this deck for the reasons you listed, and nobody should try to cut them.
But as you posit, Mountain isn't a definite inclusion in the sideboard for a number of reasons. It can still be good in some metagames, though. To recap, you want Mountain in the side if:
- You expect many aggressive decks, or decks you need to pressure very reliably in the early game (Grishoalbrand, Tron)
- You want to resolve Huntmaster or Blood Moon against many of these decks, and the games will probably be short enough you can't count on having ten draw steps to draw enough of your 17 lands for that to happen consistently
- These decks mostly pressure your life total (Burn, Suicide Zoo) and not "something else" (Infect, Ad Nauseam). If they don't pressure your life total, you'd prefer something like another Island
Hope this helps! I'll put a link to this post in the primer, in the "extra land" section.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I totally agree that the mountain doesn't hinder simic charm post-board because games are slower. My only issue with mountain is when it is preboard because it will screw with our mana.
The mountain seems to be favoured against agressive decks due to the ability to not shock for red. I agree that the two life is very relevant.
With regards to landing Huntmaster, I think most lands are about as good as mountain. You can add the foothills just to up your land count, and your mana will likely be a little smoother. Of course, we want huntmaster against agressive decks, so the ability to not shock for red applies here too.
For landing blood moon, I still like island more than mountain unless you want to avoid shocking. I prefer shock, basic, basic to dropping all three basics. It is a little more flexible on the first couple of turns (especially if you don't have all three lands in hand), and is less likely to alert the opponent to your moon plan. The other benefit is that you are left with an extra island in your deck, instead of a shock that will enter as a strictly worse mountain.
I totally agree that the mountain doesn't hinder simic charm post-board because games are slower. My only issue with mountain is when it is preboard because it will screw with our mana.
Right, that's what I was afraid you were saying. To be absolutely clear, I have never advocated for a mainboard Mountain in this deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
New RUG Delver player here. I've played Grixis and Bant Delver before and I mostly play Jund, but just recently decide to try out RUG and ran it for the first time tonight to a 3-1 finish for 2nd. My matchups were: Infect (2-1), Burn (2-1), Naya Zoo (2-0) and losing to a RW Norin Deck (1-2).
I realize the manabase and lack of Shoals isn't ideal, as well as the hastily thrown together board without Blood Moon. It was however, my favorite version of the Delver variants to play by far, and I look forward to picking up the rest of the pieces and tuning.
I recommend you try something closer to a stock list before doing weird stuff like plying more than two Snapcaster Mage (one of the weakest cards in the deck and mostly a metagame call for attrition/synergy-creature-based metagames) and cutting Denials for Pierces. Welcome!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yea, Snap is not something you want to draw more than once with this deck, in my opinion.
Depends entirely on the matchup and how many land drops you made in the game. Against Jund, you'd be happy to draw 3 Snaps. In most Game 1 situations against faster decks, you don't even want one.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
P.S. part II of my report is live: http://modernnexus.com/holding-grudges-temur-delver-scg-states-part-2/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
So we would mulligan until we get an explosive start?
@tradejoe: You're mostly right in your assessment. Mulling kind of sucks against them too, since an IOK can end us if we go to 5 and they have a removal spell. To hedge against this deck, you can shore up the mainboard, running Snapcaster and Curiosity. Also make sure to pack four Huntmasters and three Moons in the side. We get a lot better post-board.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I meant in general. Should generally mull for that explosive hand? Is there ever a time where we want to keep a slower no threat hand?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
My bad. I just read the primer and it was very insightful. Keep up the good work!
Since game 1 often ends up being a race, unless I know exactly what my opponent is playing, I almost always auto-mull a hand that has no threat in it. Unless it has some amount of dig spells and early interaction. A hand that has a threat and "relevant" interaction is really how you want your opening hand to look like. I say "relevant" here because each deck you play against requires different interaction. It really just takes some time putting in games with this deck to become more and more comfortable at looking at your opener and evaluating the question "Can I win with this start?"
I have to say that my favorite opener (against an unknown) is: 2 fetches, 1 Thoughtscour, 1 Hooting Mandrills, 1 Stubborn Denial, 1 Disrupting Shoal, 1 Serum Visions.
It allows you a turn 2 Mandrills with Stubborn Denial backup on the turn you summon him, with Shoal/Serum Visions as interaction for their turn 1 play.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
TLDR: Why not run a basic island or forest in the basic mountain's (Jordan's most recent sideboard addition) place? It replaces Breeding Pool just as well- if not better when you want a fast Blood Moon, and enable Huntmaster of the Fells about as easily.
I have always run 18 lands in RUG delver. This probably stems from when I was running UR delver. I recently began to test 17 lands, and thus far I have been impressed by the deck's ability to run smoothly, while fitting an extra action card in the deck. Jordan's mention of the two respective land counts when he spoke of basic mountain in his most recent article (part of this was in comments0, has made me very interested in discussing the land.
I hate basic mountain in this deck. I hate it a lot. The reason is two-fold. Basic mountain is nearly useless with and against Blood Moon. Unless you land one of each basic by turn three (or have more basics in hand- a bit unlikely), your Blood Moon will cut you off of a colour. Being cut off of a colour is not fun, and I don't want to build my manabase around cutting myself off of colours. The second part is Simic Charm. UG. You will never cast a Simic Charm with two lands if one of those lands is a basic mountain. NEVER. I love Simic Charm. It is one of the best reasons to play RUG over other URX decks. We often end up on two lands. Therefore, basic mountain is bad.
Now I will talk about Breeding Pool. Breeding Pool is the best and worst land in the deck. How many hands have you kept with a fetch as your only land? If the other cards in the hands consisted of mostly blue and green cards, you probably went to find that one-of Breeding Pool. Let's say you mulled to six and kept fetch, delver, goyf, shoal, visions, denial. That sort of hand has justified running Breeding Pool time and time again for me. This is important for me because I initially hated Breeding Pool. We boast of our Burn matchup to Grixis players who have to fetch, shock; fetch, shock to cast their spells, but Breeding Pool does the same to us! Without that mountain (which kills Simic Charm), Breeding Pool will probably make us shock twice. It also plays quite badly with Blood Moon. I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. Breeding Pool makes this impossible when it shows up.
Overall, I would say that Breeding Pool has earned its slot for me due to the tight margins of mana that we run on.
Mountain has not, but I have never given it a chance. It is simply too clunky.
Then Jordan said he put a mountain in his sideboard.
I thought this was a waste of a slot. Why would you want a land that kills one of our best spells? T1 mountain also notably prevents us from playing the highly coveted T2 Hooting Mandrills with Stubborn Denial up. After more thoroughly reading the articles though, I have come to appreciate this idea.
The mountain is said to come in in two scenarios: When you want to land Blood Moon ASAP, and when missing a land drop will get you killed. I can see this being useful against Tron, GBX, decks that try to get away with five colours, and decks that can't use R. The second point applies to aggressive decks that will kill you if you miss a beat.
Now that I understand the rationale behind the basic land, I kind of like it. Having just switched to 17 lands, I can imagine needing an extra to hit early land drops reliably. I think this is most relevant when you board in Huntmaster of the Fells. Our resident four drop has given even my 18 land deck trouble sometimes, so the extra land could be helpful. I won't know until I run more games with 17 lands.
My concerns about Simic Charm being turned off are also gone as long as the Breeding Pool stays in. Adding a land doesn't worsen your mana (unless you keep bad hands because of it). Even if the Breeding Pool comes out, the interactive nature of post-board games makes hitting a third land, and turning Simic Charm back on, more likely.
The part of this that I am most interested in is the role of the mountain to land Blood Moon early. Jordan said that he often takes out Breeding Pool for this purpose. The mountain replaces Breeding Pool because you can't go Breeding Pool, island, forest, Blood Moon. Mountain enables this line. But why stop with mountain? I think that the other basic lands could do an even better job of this. As I said above, I want to get a red shock, a forest, and an island when I land Blood Moon on curve. The downside to this is that you have to shock, while mountain allows your life total to remain intact. But our life total is not that relevant in most of the matchups that call for early Blood Moon. Abzan and Jund spend most of their time not applying pressure, and dedicated control decks (Tron, Grixis, UW) don't know what pressure is. I think the two life is well worth the versatility here. Especially because you are decently likely to draw a shock in the first three lands. The extra island/forest also will tap for the right colour if drawn later.
What do you guys think of changing the basic mountain to a forest or island? Am I still missing something? Also, shout out to anyone who took the time to read that.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Since the main reason for playing a basic in the side was to shore up aggressive matchups, I decided on Mountain over Island because you can fetch it without shocking yourself. Against decks like Burn and Affinity, you absolutely have to get a red source untapped in most games so you can start removing their threats. We also have a ton of red cards in the deck post-board against these decks, as well as colorless-requiring cards like Goyf, Mandrills, and Leak, so the Mountain rarely doesn't tap for any mana. Mountain also shines when we bring in Blood Moon against aggressive decks. Consider this not-unlikely scenario: turn one fetch Island and play Delver/Serum; turn two fetch Forest and play Goyf/Leak/Scour+Mandrills; turn three fetch a red source and play Moon. Alternatively, I often cast a Bolt on turn one or two against many aggressive decks, so Island or even Forest can be the third land for that Moon (something like turn one fetch a red source and Bolt; turn two fetch Forest and Goyf; turn three fetch Island and Moon). Against aggro, it's nice to be able to get a red source that doesn't shock us, since Vents or Stomping Ground will just be a Mountain once Moon resolves anyway.
As for Mountain interfering with Simic Charm: Charm isn't a card we cast early, and it isn't a card we even keep in against some aggressive decks, like Burn. We also usually want to pitch Charm to Shoal against most aggressive decks a good chunk of the time, since the Snare effect is so great against those decks and we don't have much removal or Tasigurs to worry about. By the time we do want to cast Simic against them, we'll likely have 3+ lands in my experience, so having a Mountain on the board won't change anything. Keep in mind that boarded games invariably take longer in Modern (and in Magic generally), since people board out parts of their linear strategy - or chunks of less-relevant interaction - for more effective interaction. When people interact more, they kill each other more slowly, and everyone has time to draw into more lands, including us. That can also mean we want all the fetches we draw to still find something; I can see cutting a fetchland for the sideboard Mountain in postboard games against something like UW Control, where we're guaranteed to make a ton of land drops. The only argument against that strategy is that Breeding Pool might slow down our Moons, so it's probably better to cut Pool than fetch in that case, but it's something to keep in mind regardless as the meta changes and new decks appear (something similar that we don't want Moon against could show up eventually).
That's the rationale behind having an 18th land in the sideboard, but that land doesn't have to be Mountain, by any means. Another land can definitely work in its place, and I recommend basic Island for those wary of what Mountain can do to some of our openers. A second Forest has all the same problems as Mountain and more, since it doesn't have any of its benefits other than being an 18th land. (Do you expect to cast Blood Moon off a shock and two Islands and then hope you naturally draw one of your two Forests? Seems like way too narrow a reason to run Forest over Mountain to me.) I can also see a Wooded Foothills or even a Sulfur Falls in that spot (both options explained in the primer - fetch helps our mana against faster decks, but hurts against attrition; Falls blows as the only land in an opener, but untaps under Choke and provides painless red once the game gets going). I reason that since it's an "extra" land, opening a Mountain-only hand would have been a mulligan if we'd played any card besides a land in that sideboard slot anyway. But there's certainly an argument for getting a "free" opportunity to not mulligan in that instance if we play Island or Foothills in the side instead.
For the record, I would never advise anyone play Mountain in the mainboard in this deck. That's always wrong. Also for the record, Breeding Pool is a necessary evil in this deck for the reasons you listed, and nobody should try to cut them.
But as you posit, Mountain isn't a definite inclusion in the sideboard for a number of reasons. It can still be good in some metagames, though. To recap, you want Mountain in the side if:
- You expect many aggressive decks, or decks you need to pressure very reliably in the early game (Grishoalbrand, Tron)
- You want to resolve Huntmaster or Blood Moon against many of these decks, and the games will probably be short enough you can't count on having ten draw steps to draw enough of your 17 lands for that to happen consistently
- These decks mostly pressure your life total (Burn, Suicide Zoo) and not "something else" (Infect, Ad Nauseam). If they don't pressure your life total, you'd prefer something like another Island
Hope this helps! I'll put a link to this post in the primer, in the "extra land" section.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The mountain seems to be favoured against agressive decks due to the ability to not shock for red. I agree that the two life is very relevant.
With regards to landing Huntmaster, I think most lands are about as good as mountain. You can add the foothills just to up your land count, and your mana will likely be a little smoother. Of course, we want huntmaster against agressive decks, so the ability to not shock for red applies here too.
For landing blood moon, I still like island more than mountain unless you want to avoid shocking. I prefer shock, basic, basic to dropping all three basics. It is a little more flexible on the first couple of turns (especially if you don't have all three lands in hand), and is less likely to alert the opponent to your moon plan. The other benefit is that you are left with an extra island in your deck, instead of a shock that will enter as a strictly worse mountain.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I realize the manabase and lack of Shoals isn't ideal, as well as the hastily thrown together board without Blood Moon. It was however, my favorite version of the Delver variants to play by far, and I look forward to picking up the rest of the pieces and tuning.
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Vapor Snag
4x Thought Scour
3x Spell Pierce
1x Stubborn Denial
3x Mana Leak
3x Remand
2x Simic Charm
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
Enchantment (1)
1x Seal of Fire
1x Forest
3x Island
2x Breeding Pool
2x Steam Vents
2x Stomping Ground
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wooded Foothills
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Hooting Mandrills
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Destructive Revelry
2x Pyroclasm
1x Radiant Flames
1x Roast
2x Feed the Clan
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Savage Knuckleblade
1x Curiosity
1x Spider Umbra
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy