the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
How reckless are you guys with early Probes? I find that when I am playing against an unknown deck, I will cast Gitaxian Probe as soon as possible to cantrip and get that wonderful information. This generally means Probe is the first spell I cast, as that allows me to choose my line as early as possible.
I have been doing some practice against Burn and find that early Probes make me cringe. I've had games in which not Probing could have kept me alive ling enough to close the game out.
This is only really relevant on the play because most of Burn's T1 plays are iconic. I don't really want to Probe after a Goblin Guide or suspended Rift Bolt.
My problem is that if I Probe against an unknown opponent and see a hand full of burn spells, I'm going to have a bad time.
Should I be Probing T2 on the play to be safe? Is there a threshold of Burn's meta percentage at which I should stop Probing T1 and instead Probe T2?
Probe is useful when knowing whats in your opponents hand is vital, or when life does not matter (combo or infect, for example).
Knowing your opponent has a lightning helix and a goblin guide wont do you much, since you could have already guessed that. Aggro is not where probe wants to be.
How reckless are you guys with early Probes? I find that when I am playing against an unknown deck, I will cast Gitaxian Probe as soon as possible to cantrip and get that wonderful information. This generally means Probe is the first spell I cast, as that allows me to choose my line as early as possible.
I have been doing some practice against Burn and find that early Probes make me cringe. I've had games in which not Probing could have kept me alive ling enough to close the game out.
This is only really relevant on the play because most of Burn's T1 plays are iconic. I don't really want to Probe after a Goblin Guide or suspended Rift Bolt.
My problem is that if I Probe against an unknown opponent and see a hand full of burn spells, I'm going to have a bad time.
Should I be Probing T2 on the play to be safe? Is there a threshold of Burn's meta percentage at which I should stop Probing T1 and instead Probe T2?
There are lots of resources in the primer that deal with questions like this one. From this article:
A few reasons to hold them in your hand include transforming Ravager of the Fells back into Huntmaster, having a card to exile to Disrupting Shoal, gaining additional info from Gitaxian Probe, digging for a specific answer with scry after your opponent presents a certain threat, and waiting to mess up up your opponent’s scry with Thought Scour. As a rule, if you have other things to do with your mana and like your hand and board positioning, don’t cantrip.
I only cast Probe when I open it about half the time. If I have a Stoping Ground and an Island, and a Delver and a Goyf, and no Shoal or other one drop, I have no reason to cast Probe. I know I want to play Delver this turn, so I'll do that, and then if I Probe next turn I'll have a whole extra card of additional info from my opponent. And if he goes Mountain, Lava Spike, I'll know not to cast that Probe at all until I can pay mana for it.
Let's say, though, that I only have one threat in my hand: Delver of Secrets. I have Probe and Serum Visions, too. I want to Probe here before playing the Delver (if you're going to cantrip, always do it before doing anything else, unless you have a fetch to crack and are going to cast Serum Visions). My opponent could have Lightning Bold and no other turn one play, so I can gain tempo on him by casting Visions instead of Delver to try finding a Shoal for his Bolt next turn or a Goyf to get around it. Or I might blind-draw Shoal off the Probe and be able to cast my Delver scot-free. On the play against and unknown deck, unless I have Shoal for Lightning Bolt or a hundred Goyfs, I'll Probe before playing my Delver every time.
Basically, every situation is different. Putting in reps with the deck will help you understand when it's best to cast Probe or not. I like to wait as long as possible before Probing since it costs 0 mana and the benefits tend to stack higher when you wait. Some other examples of being rewarded for waiting: you might have extra mana lying around later, allowing you not to pay life; you might draw a Serum Visions, which will let you cast a pseudo-Preordain; etc.
As for boarding it out, I take out Probe in these matchups among others:
- Jund: They fill our graveyard for Mandrills naturally, and usually they run out of cards. That's their gameplan, anyway. We also have too much to bring in against them to keep Probe.
- Burn: Can't afford to pay the life.
I keep Probe in most of the time, but it's especially insane in these matchups:
- Tron: Gives us game-winning information about when to hold up Leak.
- Ad Nauseam and other combo decks: Same here. The 2 life isn't even relevant in these matchups most of the time.
- Infect: Literally lets us play a 56-card deck. (Don't worry too much about dying to a Hierarch or Arbor; if you know that win condition exists, it usually won't happen to you.)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It'll probably be in his weekly article at Modern Nexus. Too bad I missed that one, I wanted to play against him in a mirror. We all know Im the better delver player (not).
Why would you play a 3/2 for 3 that *might* ping your opponent for 1 or 2 during your upkeep?
It's probably the trap that people mistake the devil for an larger, evasive dark confidant that damages the opponent Wich it isn't. It's to frail for it's cmc and hardly ever gives you the card you want.
@ Ashton/Jordan,
Congrats on the top8! I was wondering, did you step off of the Traverse package completely? I like that mountain in the side for hitting huntmaster more consistently. Personally, i'm not a fan of snapcaster in this deck, did you not wish it was an extra forked bolt/tarfire/seal?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
Why would you play a 3/2 for 3 that *might* ping your opponent for 1 or 2 during your upkeep?
It's probably the trap that people mistake the devil for an larger, evasive dark confidant that damages the opponent Wich it isn't. It's to frail for it's cmc and hardly ever gives you the card you want.
@ Ashton/Jordan,
Congrats on the top8! I was wondering, did you step off of the Traverse package completely? I like that mountain in the side for hitting huntmaster more consistently. Personally, i'm not a fan of snapcaster in this deck, did you not wish it was an extra forked bolt/tarfire/seal?
Thanks. I like Snap especially for midrange matchups, and we really would rather have the 2/1 + flashback than another Bolt there. It's just nice that he's also relevant against aggro decks. I am off the Traverse package, more on that on Friday. Mountain is simply the best card in Magic and every deck should play at least one side.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I understand the justifiable fear of SB goblin Spelunkers that people might throw at you game two after boarding in that mountain, but coming in play untapped and furthering your mana development by one stage makes it risk worth taking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
Disagree with removing Traverse, it's true that it doesn't work with Hooting Mandrils but it's also true that it puts even bigger threats on the board. I've had pretty good results with it.
Another small question is about Pyroclasm. Isn't Rough/Tumbe just better? or is there a flying creature that you wanna kill?
Thanks for your help
lingering souls, ornithopter, vault skirge, etc
@Azadan: Depends what you expect to play against. Traverse is great against attrition decks like BGx and downright horrible against linear decks (including Tron).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
ahh correct. Just forgot about Affinity. Do you have any advices in the U/R/X Control-MatchUps? I will look on your artices to gain some help, but maybe you have another trick
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yes, i'm still reading thats why i ask. Please look at your post #2060 where you mentioned a situation regarding Delver and Probe. What are you do when you don't have the Probe here? For Example you are on the Draw and your Opponent starts with Steam Vents->Go. Do you just Slam the Delver on Turn 1? Even if you don't have a Shoal?
If you have a Stubborn Denial in hand, does that change anything? Like playin the Delver turn 2 with Denial up?
i feel like i lost too many games to EoT Bolt my Delver and then Mana Leak my Tarmogoyf
If you're tired of losing Delvers to Steam Vents -> Bolt, don't slam the Delver. A ton of other factors are involved like the other cards in hand, the overall metagame spread at the time of the tournament, how my opponent is acting, etc. The information you're giving me is not enough to make a decision. If you gave me a seven-card hand to work with, I would have more to say.
But just curious, how does a Denial do anything? Unless you're expecting Helix, opponents can just pay for the Denial on turn two. Delver doesn't turn on ferocious.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've been drifting away from the traverse package myself. While it's phenomenal vs BGX decks, it subpar vs the rest of the field. In the side it takes to many SB slots and if you play them main they make your deck less streamlined game 1.
I took the following list to a 50 man'ish tournament yesterday and came in 4th.
Since my SB allowed some extra cards again, i opted to try Ashton's mountain to help smooth my landdrops vs BGx and to replace the breeding pools when i need moon ASAP.
I'm still liking dodecapod. They simply can't + Lilliana on an empty board if they've seen it beforehand. If they haven't, you have a 5/5 golem that mangles their Goyf or wrecks their Lilly. Besides Terminate and Lilly, they can't kill it. The 2 forked bolts did help me a great deal vs all the coco and affinity decks.
Round 1 vs affinity. 2-1
Game one he dumped his hand turn 1 with the help of two moxen. G2 and g3 he got blown out by huntmasters and removal.
Round 2 vs mono green homebrew stomp. 2-1
At first i thought he was playing Nykthos Green. However, his game plan was dropping a t2 leatherback baloth or that 2/1 haste, undying spirit thingy. With flash freeze, send to sleep and huntmaster from the board i took game 2 with ease. G3 i won on the back of a quick delver with simic charm dealing with his baloth while Goyf stalled the ground for his undying army.
Round 3 coco 2-0
2 forked bolt and seal of fire main and flash freeze and claim form the side made this a walk in the park
Round 4 Abzan 2-0
Forked Bolt and a monkey with denial backup gave me a quick game 1 vs the lingering menace. Trample ftw. Game 2 i brought in the moons, pods and huntmasters, destructive revelry and mountain. He pathed my t1 delver, wich i was fine with. My turn 3 moon got decayed. He cast a Lilly on an empty board and discarded a lingering souls. I discarded dodecapod. Dodecapod took out his lilly and got a friend in huntmaster. hunmaster eats a path and he cast a 5/6 goyf. i visioned and found simic charm. I got in for 7 and a spell snare on his Goyf left his flashback spirit tokens open for forked bolt in my next turn.
Round 5 CoCo 2-1
Same as round 3, but he did manage to combo me out with spike feeder + angel game 2.
Round 6 Grishoalbrand.
He had a hard time dealing with my denials g1. G2 i boarded in dodecapods because he was playing 4 lilliana's. (I knew the guy) G2 i won on the back of a delver that flipped after 5 turns and thought scour. His grave was full and he attempted a Goryo's vengeance on Griselbrand. In response i double thought scoured him, revealing emrakul. We both laughed. Delver flips and closes the game.
Top 8
First round of the top 8 placed me against Boggles. Shoal is the baws. 2-1
Second round was vs jund 0-2
G1 he out Junded me. G2 i never got to 4 mana for hunt master. Even after 2 visions and boarding in the extra mountain. Oh well, 4th place got me my entrance fee back + some modern master boosters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I have been doing some practice against Burn and find that early Probes make me cringe. I've had games in which not Probing could have kept me alive ling enough to close the game out.
This is only really relevant on the play because most of Burn's T1 plays are iconic. I don't really want to Probe after a Goblin Guide or suspended Rift Bolt.
My problem is that if I Probe against an unknown opponent and see a hand full of burn spells, I'm going to have a bad time.
Should I be Probing T2 on the play to be safe? Is there a threshold of Burn's meta percentage at which I should stop Probing T1 and instead Probe T2?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Knowing your opponent has a lightning helix and a goblin guide wont do you much, since you could have already guessed that. Aggro is not where probe wants to be.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Let's say, though, that I only have one threat in my hand: Delver of Secrets. I have Probe and Serum Visions, too. I want to Probe here before playing the Delver (if you're going to cantrip, always do it before doing anything else, unless you have a fetch to crack and are going to cast Serum Visions). My opponent could have Lightning Bold and no other turn one play, so I can gain tempo on him by casting Visions instead of Delver to try finding a Shoal for his Bolt next turn or a Goyf to get around it. Or I might blind-draw Shoal off the Probe and be able to cast my Delver scot-free. On the play against and unknown deck, unless I have Shoal for Lightning Bolt or a hundred Goyfs, I'll Probe before playing my Delver every time.
Basically, every situation is different. Putting in reps with the deck will help you understand when it's best to cast Probe or not. I like to wait as long as possible before Probing since it costs 0 mana and the benefits tend to stack higher when you wait. Some other examples of being rewarded for waiting: you might have extra mana lying around later, allowing you not to pay life; you might draw a Serum Visions, which will let you cast a pseudo-Preordain; etc.
As for boarding it out, I take out Probe in these matchups among others:
- Jund: They fill our graveyard for Mandrills naturally, and usually they run out of cards. That's their gameplan, anyway. We also have too much to bring in against them to keep Probe.
- Burn: Can't afford to pay the life.
I keep Probe in most of the time, but it's especially insane in these matchups:
- Tron: Gives us game-winning information about when to hold up Leak.
- Ad Nauseam and other combo decks: Same here. The 2 life isn't even relevant in these matchups most of the time.
- Infect: Literally lets us play a 56-card deck. (Don't worry too much about dying to a Hierarch or Arbor; if you know that win condition exists, it usually won't happen to you.)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
It's probably the trap that people mistake the devil for an larger, evasive dark confidant that damages the opponent Wich it isn't. It's to frail for it's cmc and hardly ever gives you the card you want.
@ Ashton/Jordan,
Congrats on the top8! I was wondering, did you step off of the Traverse package completely? I like that mountain in the side for hitting huntmaster more consistently. Personally, i'm not a fan of snapcaster in this deck, did you not wish it was an extra forked bolt/tarfire/seal?
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
However, i find your lack of dodecapods disturbing.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
@Azadan: Depends what you expect to play against. Traverse is great against attrition decks like BGx and downright horrible against linear decks (including Tron).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
But just curious, how does a Denial do anything? Unless you're expecting Helix, opponents can just pay for the Denial on turn two. Delver doesn't turn on ferocious.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I took the following list to a 50 man'ish tournament yesterday and came in 4th.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
Enchantment (1)
1 seal of fire
Sorceries (10)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Forked Bolt
Instants (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thought Scour
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mana Leak
1 spell snare
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Simic Charm
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 dodecapod
2 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
1 send to sleep
1 flashfreeze
1 Natural State
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain
Since my SB allowed some extra cards again, i opted to try Ashton's mountain to help smooth my landdrops vs BGx and to replace the breeding pools when i need moon ASAP.
I'm still liking dodecapod. They simply can't + Lilliana on an empty board if they've seen it beforehand. If they haven't, you have a 5/5 golem that mangles their Goyf or wrecks their Lilly. Besides Terminate and Lilly, they can't kill it. The 2 forked bolts did help me a great deal vs all the coco and affinity decks.
Round 1 vs affinity. 2-1
Game one he dumped his hand turn 1 with the help of two moxen. G2 and g3 he got blown out by huntmasters and removal.
Round 2 vs mono green homebrew stomp. 2-1
At first i thought he was playing Nykthos Green. However, his game plan was dropping a t2 leatherback baloth or that 2/1 haste, undying spirit thingy. With flash freeze, send to sleep and huntmaster from the board i took game 2 with ease. G3 i won on the back of a quick delver with simic charm dealing with his baloth while Goyf stalled the ground for his undying army.
Round 3 coco 2-0
2 forked bolt and seal of fire main and flash freeze and claim form the side made this a walk in the park
Round 4 Abzan 2-0
Forked Bolt and a monkey with denial backup gave me a quick game 1 vs the lingering menace. Trample ftw. Game 2 i brought in the moons, pods and huntmasters, destructive revelry and mountain. He pathed my t1 delver, wich i was fine with. My turn 3 moon got decayed. He cast a Lilly on an empty board and discarded a lingering souls. I discarded dodecapod. Dodecapod took out his lilly and got a friend in huntmaster. hunmaster eats a path and he cast a 5/6 goyf. i visioned and found simic charm. I got in for 7 and a spell snare on his Goyf left his flashback spirit tokens open for forked bolt in my next turn.
Round 5 CoCo 2-1
Same as round 3, but he did manage to combo me out with spike feeder + angel game 2.
Round 6 Grishoalbrand.
He had a hard time dealing with my denials g1. G2 i boarded in dodecapods because he was playing 4 lilliana's. (I knew the guy) G2 i won on the back of a delver that flipped after 5 turns and thought scour. His grave was full and he attempted a Goryo's vengeance on Griselbrand. In response i double thought scoured him, revealing emrakul. We both laughed. Delver flips and closes the game.
Top 8
First round of the top 8 placed me against Boggles. Shoal is the baws. 2-1
Second round was vs jund 0-2
G1 he out Junded me. G2 i never got to 4 mana for hunt master. Even after 2 visions and boarding in the extra mountain. Oh well, 4th place got me my entrance fee back + some modern master boosters.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath