Alright, so I just wanted to bring back my list for discussion. I have been testing this list a lot, and it is doing extremely well. I am not 100% sure on every slot, and SB. What do you guys think?
Cards I kind of want to test:
Young Pyromancer
Huntmaster of the Fells (in SB)
More Pillar of Flames or Flame Slash
Less Izzet Charms
Main Deck Blood Moons
Less Shadow of Doubt in SB
How good is Electrolyze?
Alright, so I just wanted to bring back my list for discussion. I have been testing this list a lot, and it is doing extremely well. I am not 100% sure on every slot, and SB. What do you guys think?
Cards I kind of want to test:
Young Pyromancer
Huntmaster of the Fells (in SB)
More Pillar of Flames or Flame Slash
Less Izzet Charms
Main Deck Blood Moons
Less Shadow of Doubt in SB
How good is Electrolyze?
I've considered a grim lavamancer but I'm worried about shrinking my goyfs. As for ooze I'm not sure if I personally run enough green sources due to my shackles and blood moon plan. But I could see other versions playing ooze to great
Success.
@TakeYourShoesOff I run Scooze cuz i don't have any goyfs, so i run 5 islands and 3 Breeding Pool, that makes 5 green mana sources, and still the same numbers for the shakles.
The biggest problem, i guess, lies on the Blood Moon at the side, it makes scooze a weak choice from this point of wiew.
@TakeYourShoesOff I run Scooze cuz i don't have any goyfs, so i run 5 islands and 3 Breeding Pool, that makes 5 green mana sources, and still the same numbers for the shakles.
The biggest problem, i guess, lies on the Blood Moon at the side, it makes scooze a weak choice from this point of wiew.
What to do in this case?!
I'm not really sure if five green mana sources is really enough to take advantage of scooze. I usually end the game with no more than two green sources in play and activating ooze once or twice a turn doesn't seem super strong. I am not sure what you mean by what do in this case? Can you be a little more specific :).
The main problem I have with this deck is, why not simply play RUG Twin? As I said before, I played RUG Delver about a year ago, and it was good. Then Jund and abrupt decay came, and the deck became unplayable, mainly because shackles wasn't as good as before and Delver was never very good to begin with.
About 4 months ago, long before the Pro Tour, I started playing RUG Twin (without Oozes tho, hadn't ocurred to me) and seeing it was similar to RUG Delver but much more powerful from my point of view, I sticked with it.
We really need Ponder for this deck to become top tier again
I mean what can i do to still playing RUG like i'm trying but with no Goyfs, actually, i was planning to use the scoozes for the job but with your exp. i guess it wont be viable.
Especially when you have the Blood Moon at the sb for g2 when you have only 1 green mana source because of the moon, i guess i get your point right here.
So the deck played surprisingly much better than I expected for a first draft. I did not win the die roll in any of my games and I believe it would of made a huge difference in all of them. I played vs. 2 UWR Control, 1 Melira Pod and 1 Affinity.
Match 1: vs. UWR Control
Game 1
I had a quick start with double delver and spell pierce into snare/remand and basically shut him down the first 5-6 turns of the game. Unfortunately I ended up drawing 12 lands and 6-7 spells that game and my delvers just didn't flip. I got him down to 1 life and couldn't draw anything to seal the game and he ended up killing me with collonade and 3 burn spells. Very frustrating loss since variance just pooped on me.
Game 2
Turn 1 he plays Leyline of Sanctity and I look in my hand of 2 bolts and a snap and just shake my head. I end up getting him to 3 life and had the win next turn and he top decks ajani to helix to keep him alive, draws a path for my goyf and stabalizes to win the game. This game I had drawn about 10 lands and 6-8 spells.
Both games I flooded and was still super close to winning. The leyline on turn 1 won him the game.
0-1
Match 2: vs. Melira Pod
Game 1
He lands a turn 2 pod and proceeds to flood the board as I remove everything and start bashing in with a goyf. We get into a board state where I have a delver, 2x goyf and snapcaster and have the win next turn and he top decks a seer to combo off. Another annoying game where I got him to 2 life, but what can you do.
Game 2
I end up killing his dork turn 1 and he follows it with 2 more dorks and I play a goyf and he lands a pod. The game becomes grindy with me killing everything and beating in with a goyf. I end up flipping a delver and using firespout to wipe his board and swing for lethal. Pillar of Flame is such an all-star vs their deck.
Game 3
We both mull down to 5 and I end up piercing his turn 2 pod and he plays another pod on turn 3. I ride a delver and snapcaster to victory while I burn/kill each creature he pods into and counter the ones he draws.
A very grindy matchup that centers around cards like pod and ooze on their side and goyf on my side. He was able to land a pod all 3 times and I was still able to push through. He is also an experienced pod player who has been playing the deck for over 4-5 months and I know is quite good. He made day 2 at GP Richmond and had a record of 8-1 going into day 2 and ended up dropping after going 9-3.
1-1
Match 3: vs UWR Control
Game 1
I am able to just tempo him out by sticking a threat and just winning counter wars. I had kept a one lander with serum visions on the draw and didnt draw a land until turn 3 and was still able to win. At one point I had a goyf in play and a hand of 2 spell pierce, 2 spell snare, 1 remand, 1 snapcaster mage, 1 goyf with 3 lands out.
Game 2
Had some crazy counter wars but was able to get some good damage in with delver, some more damage with snapcaster and eventually sealed it out with goyf. We are def favored in this matchup. Its not a cake walk because they have so much removal but we can tempo them out fairly well.
2-1
Match 3: vs. Affinity
Game 1
This game was crazy. I lost the die roll and he had an ok start with inkmoth into vault and 2 ornithopters. I played a delver and he landed a plating. From that moment on, all I did was kill the platings creature and swung back with snap. He even landed a steel overseer. I was able to do exact damage to kill him when I had a turn where visions and had a snag in hand with 4 lands in play and a bolt and clique on top. I lived with 9 poison counters and 3 life.
Sideboard
+2 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Pillar of Flame, +1 Spell Pierce. -4 Remand, -4 Mana Leak.
Game 2
I ran him over with an opening hand of land, visions, snap, goyf, bolt, grudge, pillar. I drew another land and went to town. I won at over 10 life and 0 poison and I was even able to kill an etched champion by killing 2 artifacts and him losing metal craft for a turn.
3-1
The deck was solid and I really enjoyed it. When the deck works, it really works. Aside from match 1, the deck work as planned where I got to 3-4 mana for the first 6-7 turns and visioned away any extra lands. I never really got over 5-6 mana outside of the first match. The deck rewards tight play and proper sequencing of spells. I do not think it is quite Tier 1 in its current form, it feels better than any Tier 1.5 deck I have played thus far though.
As for changes, I think I should drop down to 3/2 leak/remand split. I could also see going down a land to 19 (but 20 is fine). I could see doing something like adding either some sleight of hand/gitaxian probe/forked bolt/maybe electrolyze. There are a lot of cards to try out. The sideboard could use some extra work, I really want to try boom/bust (I didn't draw it when I sided it in yesterday) but it seems better than molten rain imo but required further testing. I think I could go down to 2 combust and the firespouts and engineered explosives both might be better as something else.
I also went 3-1 last night. I split with my finals opponent but we played for fun. I losses so that's why I say I went 3-1. I beat merfolk 2-0 affinity 2-0 and twin 2-0. Last round was against melira pod. I lost 1-2 but it definitely felt winnable. I will put up a more detailed report after work. I did change my list a little. I cut pillar and Izzet charm for two remand. In the sb I cut shadow of doubt for a shatterstorm. I did feel like I had too many counters. That's something I'll work on. I also want to try a grim lavamancer. Oh and a sidenote shackles is insane.
I played another 3 round Modern tournament today and went 3-0. I won't give a full tournament report since it seems as if this thread is fairly inactive. I played 4 games vs UWR and 3 games vs affinity before the tournament and went 2-2 vs UWR and 2-1 vs affinity both pre-board. As for the tournament, I played burn (2-0), melira pod (2-1) and UWR twin (2-1).
This deck seems strong and much more consistent than i thought it would be. I had one game where I flooded and one game where I was stuck on land for a turn. The only real change I could see is maybe adding some sleight of hand. I know people have said it does nothing, but when your running less lands and drawing more gas than everyone else, its great to be able to filter to find the higher impact cards in your deck. Snag has been kind of lackluster but I guess I haven't played vs many goyf decks, pillar has been situational and I might have 1-3 too many counters. Although its great having a goyf/delver on the board and sitting back on a hand of 4-6 counters. This deck is def not like legacy rug delver or true tempo decks since you play the control game when you don't have an early delver or have a way to play and put goyf out of bolt range, but you still get down a threat on turn 3-5 and ride it or the next one to victory.
I thoroughly enjoy this deck and I do think that going shackleless and crypticless is the way to go. You want cheap answers and the ability to operate on 3-4 mana. If you try to play the control game for too long you will just lose since your only real source of CA is goyf/snap with everything else trading 1 for 1.
I also want to try a version where I cut the basic mountain and forest, play 18 lands, cut 2 remands and the 2 snags and add 4 sleight of hands and 2 gitaxian probes but I think that may be getting too greedy haha.
Or cutting those two lands, the 2 snags and 2 cliques for 4 sleights and 2 probes bringing me up to legacy rug delver numbers but that is also probably too greedy.
Yeah I think going down on lands and cliques isn't a great idea. Personally i love shackles. I could see cutting command but it's such a high impact card that has so much value in the game. I do think I have too many counters as well. I would like to cut a couple counters for more threating spells. I just don't know what. Perhaps vapor snags.
I also want to try a version where I cut the basic mountain and forest, play 18 lands, cut 2 remands and the 2 snags and add 4 sleight of hands and 2 gitaxian probes but I think that may be getting too greedy haha.
Or cutting those two lands, the 2 snags and 2 cliques for 4 sleights and 2 probes bringing me up to legacy rug delver numbers but that is also probably too greedy.
Sleight of Hand really isn't that good. The main reason why Serum Visions is good is because it helps to set up Delver of Secrets, which slight of hand doesn't do.
Sleight of Hand really isn't that good. The main reason why Serum Visions is good is because it helps to set up Delver of Secrets, which slight of hand doesn't do.
Yea I get that. Its just so I can get to 30 spells and have 18 lands in the deck and still be able to hit my land drops/act as a spell/and dig through my deck. If could set up the top of our deck we would be running 8 cantrips like the preordain/ponder combo in standard or the brainstorm/ponder combo in legacy. Unfortunately, all we have is serum visions which is the worst of the lot.
Maybe I should give up on trying to get to 30 spells/18 lands and just accept that their is no way I can get this to be even half as effecient as legacy rug delver.
Yeah I dont think the 30 spells 18 lands will ever be a good idea. We dont have cards like Stifle, Daze, FoW, and Wasteland to tax our opponent as well.
Side comment: Its a little unfortunate how inactive this thread is, with the success you (Chaam) and I have had with the deck. Its very well positioned right now and the only bad match up I have had with it is affinity which is still very winable. Game one is just a little hard for me. Every other match up I am very comfortable in.
Yeah I dont think the 30 spells 18 lands will ever be a good idea. We dont have cards like Stifle, Daze, FoW, and Wasteland to tax our opponent as well.
Side comment: Its a little unfortunate how inactive this thread is, with the success you (Chaam) and I have had with the deck. Its very well positioned right now and the only bad match up I have had with it is affinity which is still very winable. Game one is just a little hard for me. Every other match up I am very comfortable in.
It could be worse. I'd say that the meta is good for WUR Delver right now too, and its primer is dead and everyone who played it or wants to play it either is playing something else or doesn't own blue fetchlands (or just doesn't post in the thread).
Built a rug delver list then came here to compare.
The big difference I noticed is my list has 4 yp and 4 probe in the place of clique, mana leak, and spell pierce/ shackles.
Has anyone tested young pyromancer yet? I don't wanna test something already proved lacking
I am running yp in my build its been good so far I think he needs more testing
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
I really appreciate your list.
I'm not a big fan of 4 Snapcaster Mage in Main Deck, maybe -1 Snapcaster Mage, and +1 Grim Lavamancer should be an option as long as you're running 8 Fetch Lands.
Anybody testing Scavenging Ooze?
I've considered a grim lavamancer but I'm worried about shrinking my goyfs. As for ooze I'm not sure if I personally run enough green sources due to my shackles and blood moon plan. But I could see other versions playing ooze to great
Success.
The biggest problem, i guess, lies on the Blood Moon at the side, it makes scooze a weak choice from this point of wiew.
What to do in this case?!
I'm not really sure if five green mana sources is really enough to take advantage of scooze. I usually end the game with no more than two green sources in play and activating ooze once or twice a turn doesn't seem super strong. I am not sure what you mean by what do in this case? Can you be a little more specific :).
About 4 months ago, long before the Pro Tour, I started playing RUG Twin (without Oozes tho, hadn't ocurred to me) and seeing it was similar to RUG Delver but much more powerful from my point of view, I sticked with it.
We really need Ponder for this deck to become top tier again
Yea, my bad.
I mean what can i do to still playing RUG like i'm trying but with no Goyfs, actually, i was planning to use the scoozes for the job but with your exp. i guess it wont be viable.
Especially when you have the Blood Moon at the sb for g2 when you have only 1 green mana source because of the moon, i guess i get your point right here.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (6)
4 Serum Visions
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Combust
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
2 Boom // Bust
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Spell Pierce
So the deck played surprisingly much better than I expected for a first draft. I did not win the die roll in any of my games and I believe it would of made a huge difference in all of them. I played vs. 2 UWR Control, 1 Melira Pod and 1 Affinity.
Match 1: vs. UWR Control
Game 1
I had a quick start with double delver and spell pierce into snare/remand and basically shut him down the first 5-6 turns of the game. Unfortunately I ended up drawing 12 lands and 6-7 spells that game and my delvers just didn't flip. I got him down to 1 life and couldn't draw anything to seal the game and he ended up killing me with collonade and 3 burn spells. Very frustrating loss since variance just pooped on me.
Sideboard
+2 Combust, +2 Boom // Bust, +1 Spell Pierce. -2 Pillar of Flame -2 Vapor Snag, -1 Remand.
Game 2
Turn 1 he plays Leyline of Sanctity and I look in my hand of 2 bolts and a snap and just shake my head. I end up getting him to 3 life and had the win next turn and he top decks ajani to helix to keep him alive, draws a path for my goyf and stabalizes to win the game. This game I had drawn about 10 lands and 6-8 spells.
Both games I flooded and was still super close to winning. The leyline on turn 1 won him the game.
0-1
Match 2: vs. Melira Pod
Game 1
He lands a turn 2 pod and proceeds to flood the board as I remove everything and start bashing in with a goyf. We get into a board state where I have a delver, 2x goyf and snapcaster and have the win next turn and he top decks a seer to combo off. Another annoying game where I got him to 2 life, but what can you do.
Sideboard
+2 Firespout, +1 Pillar of Flame. -2 Vapor Snag, -1 Spell Snare.
Game 2
I end up killing his dork turn 1 and he follows it with 2 more dorks and I play a goyf and he lands a pod. The game becomes grindy with me killing everything and beating in with a goyf. I end up flipping a delver and using firespout to wipe his board and swing for lethal. Pillar of Flame is such an all-star vs their deck.
Sideboard
-2 Remand, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare.
Game 3
We both mull down to 5 and I end up piercing his turn 2 pod and he plays another pod on turn 3. I ride a delver and snapcaster to victory while I burn/kill each creature he pods into and counter the ones he draws.
A very grindy matchup that centers around cards like pod and ooze on their side and goyf on my side. He was able to land a pod all 3 times and I was still able to push through. He is also an experienced pod player who has been playing the deck for over 4-5 months and I know is quite good. He made day 2 at GP Richmond and had a record of 8-1 going into day 2 and ended up dropping after going 9-3.
1-1
Match 3: vs UWR Control
Game 1
I am able to just tempo him out by sticking a threat and just winning counter wars. I had kept a one lander with serum visions on the draw and didnt draw a land until turn 3 and was still able to win. At one point I had a goyf in play and a hand of 2 spell pierce, 2 spell snare, 1 remand, 1 snapcaster mage, 1 goyf with 3 lands out.
Sideboard
+2 Combust, +2 Boom // Bust, +1 Spell Pierce. -2 Vapor Snag, -2 Pillar of Flames, -1 Remand.
Game 2
Had some crazy counter wars but was able to get some good damage in with delver, some more damage with snapcaster and eventually sealed it out with goyf. We are def favored in this matchup. Its not a cake walk because they have so much removal but we can tempo them out fairly well.
2-1
Match 3: vs. Affinity
Game 1
This game was crazy. I lost the die roll and he had an ok start with inkmoth into vault and 2 ornithopters. I played a delver and he landed a plating. From that moment on, all I did was kill the platings creature and swung back with snap. He even landed a steel overseer. I was able to do exact damage to kill him when I had a turn where visions and had a snag in hand with 4 lands in play and a bolt and clique on top. I lived with 9 poison counters and 3 life.
Sideboard
+2 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Pillar of Flame, +1 Spell Pierce. -4 Remand, -4 Mana Leak.
Game 2
I ran him over with an opening hand of land, visions, snap, goyf, bolt, grudge, pillar. I drew another land and went to town. I won at over 10 life and 0 poison and I was even able to kill an etched champion by killing 2 artifacts and him losing metal craft for a turn.
3-1
The deck was solid and I really enjoyed it. When the deck works, it really works. Aside from match 1, the deck work as planned where I got to 3-4 mana for the first 6-7 turns and visioned away any extra lands. I never really got over 5-6 mana outside of the first match. The deck rewards tight play and proper sequencing of spells. I do not think it is quite Tier 1 in its current form, it feels better than any Tier 1.5 deck I have played thus far though.
As for changes, I think I should drop down to 3/2 leak/remand split. I could also see going down a land to 19 (but 20 is fine). I could see doing something like adding either some sleight of hand/gitaxian probe/forked bolt/maybe electrolyze. There are a lot of cards to try out. The sideboard could use some extra work, I really want to try boom/bust (I didn't draw it when I sided it in yesterday) but it seems better than molten rain imo but required further testing. I think I could go down to 2 combust and the firespouts and engineered explosives both might be better as something else.
This deck seems strong and much more consistent than i thought it would be. I had one game where I flooded and one game where I was stuck on land for a turn. The only real change I could see is maybe adding some sleight of hand. I know people have said it does nothing, but when your running less lands and drawing more gas than everyone else, its great to be able to filter to find the higher impact cards in your deck. Snag has been kind of lackluster but I guess I haven't played vs many goyf decks, pillar has been situational and I might have 1-3 too many counters. Although its great having a goyf/delver on the board and sitting back on a hand of 4-6 counters. This deck is def not like legacy rug delver or true tempo decks since you play the control game when you don't have an early delver or have a way to play and put goyf out of bolt range, but you still get down a threat on turn 3-5 and ride it or the next one to victory.
I thoroughly enjoy this deck and I do think that going shackleless and crypticless is the way to go. You want cheap answers and the ability to operate on 3-4 mana. If you try to play the control game for too long you will just lose since your only real source of CA is goyf/snap with everything else trading 1 for 1.
Or cutting those two lands, the 2 snags and 2 cliques for 4 sleights and 2 probes bringing me up to legacy rug delver numbers but that is also probably too greedy.
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (12)
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
5 Island
Or instead of 2 lavamancer and 2 cliques, run 1 lavamancer and 3 snaps and put the 2 cliques in the sb. Maybe even 1 lavamancer, 2 snaps and 1 clique.
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (10)
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
5 Island
Sleight of Hand really isn't that good. The main reason why Serum Visions is good is because it helps to set up Delver of Secrets, which slight of hand doesn't do.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yea I get that. Its just so I can get to 30 spells and have 18 lands in the deck and still be able to hit my land drops/act as a spell/and dig through my deck. If could set up the top of our deck we would be running 8 cantrips like the preordain/ponder combo in standard or the brainstorm/ponder combo in legacy. Unfortunately, all we have is serum visions which is the worst of the lot.
Maybe I should give up on trying to get to 30 spells/18 lands and just accept that their is no way I can get this to be even half as effecient as legacy rug delver.
Side comment: Its a little unfortunate how inactive this thread is, with the success you (Chaam) and I have had with the deck. Its very well positioned right now and the only bad match up I have had with it is affinity which is still very winable. Game one is just a little hard for me. Every other match up I am very comfortable in.
It could be worse. I'd say that the meta is good for WUR Delver right now too, and its primer is dead and everyone who played it or wants to play it either is playing something else or doesn't own blue fetchlands (or just doesn't post in the thread).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The big difference I noticed is my list has 4 yp and 4 probe in the place of clique, mana leak, and spell pierce/ shackles.
Has anyone tested young pyromancer yet? I don't wanna test something already proved lacking
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
--Laboratory notes, final entry