To some points on the list,as stated dragons claw was just too slow and will be cut for sure. Hibernation was insane in the sb,its good against zoo,pod and boggles,dont cut it! Tarmogoyf is the best creature and without it you shouldnt play this deck. You really need it to win the pseudo-"ur delver" mirror,race combodecks like scapeshift/twin and against affinity its also much better than swiftspear. Molten rain maybe seems to slow,but it isnt,it can win you the game against many decks,not only scapeshift.
We are testing already for gp milano as patrick tomelitsch and bernhard lehner have to top8 and we have some slight changes to the sb and main but i cant post them as we want to have a surpise factor at the gp.
Ps.: @spooly tomelitsch,lehner and i played same 75 at the gp
Thanks for the insight! I'm 100% with you on Goyf - love him in the pseudo-mirror and as a threat that doesn't die to all of the burn vs, well, everyone these days. Could you explain your reasoning for 0 Snapcaster and 4 Young Pyromancer though?
Simply not enough time to test it out as we would have wished and as he was crucial on winning preboard against hatebears and sometimes affinity we let 4 pyromancer stay,also against ur delver he was kinda ok as they didnt play electrickery usually.
Simply not enough time to test it out as we would have wished and as he was crucial on winning preboard against hatebears and sometimes affinity we let 4 pyromancer stay,also against ur delver he was kinda ok as they didnt play electrickery usually.
I look forward to see what you guys come up with! My next real modern event is GP Omaha, which is the next modern GP after Milan, and I'm helping a friend test for the next PT, so I'll be watching closely.
Simply not enough time to test it out as we would have wished and as he was crucial on winning preboard against hatebears and sometimes affinity we let 4 pyromancer stay,also against ur delver he was kinda ok as they didnt play electrickery usually.
Did any of you secretly slip in an Aura of Silence just prior to registration, just in case you encountered another member of your group in the field?
Ooze is godawful in this deck. Having more than one green mana in play is a luxury, and casting him with the ability to grow him past a bolt is a dream right now. Also, theres no way a deck with 19 lands is keeping any deck off its delve spells. I would be to happy if my opponent playing 19 lands was spending all of his mana doing....nothing.
I understand the issues you're pointing out, but suffice to say that the mana hasn't been that much of an issue for me. I'm also not trying to keep my opponents completely off their delve spells - just make theirs cost more than mine.
This isn't bad. Ooze is good in this deck but just in the Midrange-y version. That version certainly wants Dig Through Time. I think we can split the deck into Dig variants (which should more closely resemble classical lists with Shackles) and Cruise lists (which bear more similarity to UR Delver and run Young Pyromancer). Wizards must understand that Cruise is safe by now, having seen the results of GP Madrid (I mean, right?!), but I'll wait until the next banlist announcement to right a novel about this in the Primer.
A proposed list, off the top of my head (untested):
You don't want to run tap lands though. You do still occasionally get value out of the bounce though - deprive on your own turn replay a land can sometimes be nice as a pseudo ritual. It doesn't come up often, but it's sweet when it does.
I haven't played Modern in about two months. I am going to try Immanual Gerschenson list tomorrow night at my LGS. Can anyone give me sideboarding advice (ie not just what to put in but what to take out) for Pod, Affinity, UR Delver, and Burn? Thank you!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Now Playing Modern RUBW Affinity BGR Midrange UWR Control RG Titan Shift RW Burn GW Bogles G Tron
In the first 3 rounds of modern, they went a combined 6-3, 5-2 if you exclude the 75 card mirror. Other two losses were to UR Delver (Chapin) and Junk (Edel). The last round results weren't posted when I was typing this, but I'll update when I see them.
EDIT: Final round results are in: 8-4, 7-3 in non-mirrors. Other loss was to Ascendancy (Wraptor) while the other wins were against Ascendancy (PV) and Storm (Jensen).
We can't draw too strong of conclusions since the metagame is weird in a 24 man tournament where you have a pretty good idea of what several people are playing, but I think we can learn a lot from this list. This is an aggressive version with Swiftspears over Pyromancers and Snapcasters. I like how resilient this makes the deck to things like Electrolyze and Forked Bolt. If you're going to go aggressive, this might be the way to go in order to dodge the hate. Even Pyroclasm is pretty poor if you leave can leave up a lowly Thought Scour to protect Swiftspear. Speaking of Thought Scour, I like it in this build specifically because it's so aggressive and also trying to play Tarmogoyf - this list wants Treasure Cruise since it's on the Swiftspear plan, so it expects to pay the minimum for it's Delve spell, which necessitates Scour to fill the gaps a bit. I like the counter package in this list, though I would be tempted to try a single Deprive MD over... something. Maybe a Remand. The SB eschews Blood Moon for Molten Rain, which we've already seen before and seems reasonable in a 3 color deck vs. a format filled with all 10 fetches now, and it makes a lot of sense in order to slow down Junk and kill a manland in the process instead of maybe just trading a card for an Abrupt Decay. The Ooze looks good for the same reason that I've been trying to MD it - sometimes you want lifegain, sometimes you want GY hate, and sometimes you just need a threat that at least fades Lightning Bolt sometimes. I particularly like it vs. UWR for example. The Knuckleblade is the most interesting card. Presumably it comes in the grindy matchups like Junk and UWR as a haymaker that can't be killed very easily, impacts the board, and comes down early if need be. The usual haymakers - Batterskull and Keranos - are lacking in this regard and much less aggressive compared to the stance this list is trying to take.
Suppose you expect a lot of Scapeshift, Storm, and/or Jeskai Ascendancy. Then you want to be as aggressive as possible in order to get pressure on early, then be able to hold up counter magic in order to interact. In that case, I think this list is exactly where you want to be. Well, this or UR with Pyromancer instead of Goyf (i.e. Chapin/Rietzl's list or Cifka/Floch's list from this event) but there's still an argument for Goyf in order to make your threats more resilient to the commonly played hate cards. It turns out that 10/24 decks in the event were Scapeshift, Storm, or Ascendancy, so this list was well positioned. Also notice that Scapeshift was MDing Pyroclasm which seems very reasonable and makes Goyf look a little better relative to Pyromancer.
I really like this list and would start here if I were looking to play an aggressive version of RU(G) Delver - and maybe I should be given the prevalence of Scapeshift right now and the new version of Ascendancy. I'm not 100% sold on the SB, but I'd need to think about it a lot more to really draw any solid conclusions. The MD, however, is very hard to argue with given what the deck is trying to accomplish.
You have an unnatural affinity for Deprive I think Spooly.
I had just finished sleeving up the GP Madrid list when I saw these Worlds versions yesterday and got even more excited. It's not that I don't love Pyromancer, but he is a little played out right now, and I really love Swiftspear. Having more one-drops is also preferable in any Delver list. I also like the 1-of Snapcaster.
In any case, I'm just now rejoining Modern and hoping to get some testing in this next week with the RUG Delver builds. I'll likely try out the Pyro version first, but can see myself switching over to the Japanese maindecks before too long. I even kept a 1-of Knuckleblade while trading in a buncha standard chaff yesterday, just because of this list. He seems pretty good, given the flexibility and lower mana cost than the usual haymakers, and it's a nice way to mitigate flooding in a long game. Scavenging Ooze seems less good in a wide open meta given our 2 green sources, but I can see the value in the expected metagame at worlds, given the GY decks and so many mirrors, and he makes a decent Goyf impression if you can fade Bolt for a couple turns. I do also like Thought Scour, but I might shave one for more business, depending. Either way, glad to see RUG Delver back in action in Modern.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
You have an unnatural affinity for Deprive I think Spooly.
The first deprive is just so good.
Scavenging Ooze seems less good in a wide open meta given our 2 green sources, but I can see the value in the expected metagame at worlds, given the GY decks and so many mirrors, and he makes a decent Goyf impression if you can fade Bolt for a couple turns.
Yeah, my first instinct was to cut an Island for another Breeding Pool when I saw the list.
Yeah I'll have to try out a Deprive I guess, though likely in the SB over something like Negate. I also might add a Breeding Pool over Island to squeeze in Scooze.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
With just Swiftspear and no Pyromancer, you probably have to really want Growth or Gut Shot for other reasons - e.g. if Growth saves your creatures from removal often enough or there are enough 1 toughness creatures to kill when you're tapped out. But both Growth and Gut Shot are really bad in some pretty common spots.
I had sleeved up the GP Madrid list and haven't even had a chance to test it, but I'm already leaning toward the worlds list that the Japanese pioneered. I will likely test out some copies of Mutagenic Growth, but probably not Gut Shot. Growth can always be cashed in for a shock-level burn spell at the right time, and protects our own creatures. Gut Shot is really good in some narrow spots, but is one of those cards that's really variable and can just plain suck at the wrong point in the game or in certain matchups. 2-of Mutagenic Growth seems like a cute way to mess with people without taking over too many other spell slots. I'll likely have to cut a Spell Snare and a Thought Scour to fit them in.
I'll let you guys know how it goes next week after I test the deck some more. There is a tournament tomorrow but I'm not sure I'll make it.
Here's what I'm thinking, though board will likely change somewhat:
Any thoughts on changes to the sb for an open meta?
That's the great part of playing a "fair deck" there is very little the deck just strait up losses to. I would say cover the bases. Some number of dragons claw, combo hate and land disruption/destruction, and some more burn or counters and electrikery for the mirror
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
With all the counterspells and draw to find Tarmogoyf, I think Feed the Clan and a pair of Skites are better here than the Claw.
Claw is particularly bad at catching you up when you're already behind. And Feed the Clan looks even better if, like the Japanese, you put a Knuckleblade or 2 in your SB. Taking out Delver - which is susceptible to Searing Blaze / Searing Blood anyway - isn't the worst idea in the world. I don't know if this idea is good or not, but it certainly seems reasonable to me in theory. I am still worried about having enough ways to trigger ferocious for Feed the Clan to be worthwhile though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Thanks for the insight! I'm 100% with you on Goyf - love him in the pseudo-mirror and as a threat that doesn't die to all of the burn vs, well, everyone these days. Could you explain your reasoning for 0 Snapcaster and 4 Young Pyromancer though?
I look forward to see what you guys come up with! My next real modern event is GP Omaha, which is the next modern GP after Milan, and I'm helping a friend test for the next PT, so I'll be watching closely.
When you are running deprive, do you think its a good idea to run maybe 1 halamar depths? Just to get the most value out of your bounce?
Modern
RUBW Affinity
BGR Midrange
UWR Control
RG Titan Shift
RW Burn
GW Bogles
G Tron
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
Sorcery (13)
2 Forked Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Instant (16)
2 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thought Scour
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Mountain
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Deprive
1 Magma Spray
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Molten Rain
1 Dispel
In the first 3 rounds of modern, they went a combined 6-3, 5-2 if you exclude the 75 card mirror. Other two losses were to UR Delver (Chapin) and Junk (Edel). The last round results weren't posted when I was typing this, but I'll update when I see them.
EDIT: Final round results are in: 8-4, 7-3 in non-mirrors. Other loss was to Ascendancy (Wraptor) while the other wins were against Ascendancy (PV) and Storm (Jensen).
We can't draw too strong of conclusions since the metagame is weird in a 24 man tournament where you have a pretty good idea of what several people are playing, but I think we can learn a lot from this list. This is an aggressive version with Swiftspears over Pyromancers and Snapcasters. I like how resilient this makes the deck to things like Electrolyze and Forked Bolt. If you're going to go aggressive, this might be the way to go in order to dodge the hate. Even Pyroclasm is pretty poor if you leave can leave up a lowly Thought Scour to protect Swiftspear. Speaking of Thought Scour, I like it in this build specifically because it's so aggressive and also trying to play Tarmogoyf - this list wants Treasure Cruise since it's on the Swiftspear plan, so it expects to pay the minimum for it's Delve spell, which necessitates Scour to fill the gaps a bit. I like the counter package in this list, though I would be tempted to try a single Deprive MD over... something. Maybe a Remand. The SB eschews Blood Moon for Molten Rain, which we've already seen before and seems reasonable in a 3 color deck vs. a format filled with all 10 fetches now, and it makes a lot of sense in order to slow down Junk and kill a manland in the process instead of maybe just trading a card for an Abrupt Decay. The Ooze looks good for the same reason that I've been trying to MD it - sometimes you want lifegain, sometimes you want GY hate, and sometimes you just need a threat that at least fades Lightning Bolt sometimes. I particularly like it vs. UWR for example. The Knuckleblade is the most interesting card. Presumably it comes in the grindy matchups like Junk and UWR as a haymaker that can't be killed very easily, impacts the board, and comes down early if need be. The usual haymakers - Batterskull and Keranos - are lacking in this regard and much less aggressive compared to the stance this list is trying to take.
Suppose you expect a lot of Scapeshift, Storm, and/or Jeskai Ascendancy. Then you want to be as aggressive as possible in order to get pressure on early, then be able to hold up counter magic in order to interact. In that case, I think this list is exactly where you want to be. Well, this or UR with Pyromancer instead of Goyf (i.e. Chapin/Rietzl's list or Cifka/Floch's list from this event) but there's still an argument for Goyf in order to make your threats more resilient to the commonly played hate cards. It turns out that 10/24 decks in the event were Scapeshift, Storm, or Ascendancy, so this list was well positioned. Also notice that Scapeshift was MDing Pyroclasm which seems very reasonable and makes Goyf look a little better relative to Pyromancer.
I really like this list and would start here if I were looking to play an aggressive version of RU(G) Delver - and maybe I should be given the prevalence of Scapeshift right now and the new version of Ascendancy. I'm not 100% sold on the SB, but I'd need to think about it a lot more to really draw any solid conclusions. The MD, however, is very hard to argue with given what the deck is trying to accomplish.
I had just finished sleeving up the GP Madrid list when I saw these Worlds versions yesterday and got even more excited. It's not that I don't love Pyromancer, but he is a little played out right now, and I really love Swiftspear. Having more one-drops is also preferable in any Delver list. I also like the 1-of Snapcaster.
In any case, I'm just now rejoining Modern and hoping to get some testing in this next week with the RUG Delver builds. I'll likely try out the Pyro version first, but can see myself switching over to the Japanese maindecks before too long. I even kept a 1-of Knuckleblade while trading in a buncha standard chaff yesterday, just because of this list. He seems pretty good, given the flexibility and lower mana cost than the usual haymakers, and it's a nice way to mitigate flooding in a long game. Scavenging Ooze seems less good in a wide open meta given our 2 green sources, but I can see the value in the expected metagame at worlds, given the GY decks and so many mirrors, and he makes a decent Goyf impression if you can fade Bolt for a couple turns. I do also like Thought Scour, but I might shave one for more business, depending. Either way, glad to see RUG Delver back in action in Modern.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The first deprive is just so good.
Yeah, my first instinct was to cut an Island for another Breeding Pool when I saw the list.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'll let you guys know how it goes next week after I test the deck some more. There is a tournament tomorrow but I'm not sure I'll make it.
Here's what I'm thinking, though board will likely change somewhat:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Forked Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thought Scour
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
2 Mutagenic Growth
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Mountain
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Deprive
1 Magma Spray
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Molten Rain
1 Dispel
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's the great part of playing a "fair deck" there is very little the deck just strait up losses to. I would say cover the bases. Some number of dragons claw, combo hate and land disruption/destruction, and some more burn or counters and electrikery for the mirror
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Claw is particularly bad at catching you up when you're already behind. And Feed the Clan looks even better if, like the Japanese, you put a Knuckleblade or 2 in your SB. Taking out Delver - which is susceptible to Searing Blaze / Searing Blood anyway - isn't the worst idea in the world. I don't know if this idea is good or not, but it certainly seems reasonable to me in theory. I am still worried about having enough ways to trigger ferocious for Feed the Clan to be worthwhile though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy