Lemonbuster, I have a question about one-off bullets, Traverse, and Thought Scour. You only run one Huntmaster in the board, probably because you can tutor for it with Traverse, essentially giving you four copies.
Are there any matchups in which you want Huntmaster and Thought Scour, but board out Thought Scour so that you don't mill your only Huntmaster? Or is that risk low enough that you are better off having Thought Scour anyways?
Huntmaster is the kind of card that is best against creature decks with sparce removal (merfolk, affinity, d&t, elves, ect) in which case having access to a simulated 'four copies' is ideal because you have a good deal of access to the card but you'll never draw a redundant second copy (as they generally struggle to kill the first) and it lets you drop your curve tremendously. Running a second copy to help improve matchups like burn and removal-heavy decks is always an option and that would help with the self-milling issue. It's a one-of for me simply because of deck space and less of that I see it as a 'bullet' though.
I have previously expressed my disdain for Thought Scour as the deck has limited fetch land targets and you can seriously ruin your own day with blood moon in hand and basics in the graveyard. Unfortunately even with Bauble I think at least three is necessary with three mandrills and frankly I very rarely board out mandrills, and therefore generally leave all my cantrips in. Honestly though, I cannot remember a single instance in which I milled a particular creature and lost because of it, aside from snapcaster mage. I have lost several games to milling a particular land so I suppose it's always been a known risk in this deck.
Been seriously considering a Pulse of Murasa in the board to combat this but I can't realistically see myself bringing it in most of the time I bring moon in, so it probably isnt a perfect fix.
Hi guys!
Made top 8 this weekend with RUG delver at the 1k! Everyone decided to split and I walked out with 125 dollars cash!
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments and in depth discussion on the deck. This was my first time cashing out of an event and I have you all to thank. I'll post my list and matchups!
round 1: BW aristocrats? his first comp REL event. 2-0.
round 2: Slivers. tough matchup but not something to really feel bad about losing to, some decks are just gonna meme on you. I also made a pretty significant error due to lack of sleep that allegedly lost me game two (not traversing before casting bloodmoon) 0-2
round 3: GR TitanScapeshift. I play a lot of scapeshift so I knew what to do and what to expect. Game one I win on the back of delver. Game two he wins through bloodmoon with titan, baloth, and chandra. Game three he kept a hand full of ETB tapped lands. He could of stabilized if I did not counter his tribe elder. 2-1
Round 4: UB shadow. The premier matchup. Game one my opponent has what must of been a slower start. Our creatures do a lot of trading and the interactions between goyf and my oponents graveyard are interesting to play around. I had an amazing thought scour where I ended up putting creature and sorcery into my graveyard, making my goyf a 5/6, able to swing into/block his angler. My opponent didn't see a deaths shadow until late in the game, where I let them die to their own bitterblossom. Game two I saw my MB tech for the matchup. I was able to bolt 2 deaths shadows out of the game, blocked a gurmag angler with narnam renegade, and countered a deaths shadow with disrupting shoal while tapped out. The shoal left them open for lethal. 2-0
@Donkin nice looking list. On paper it addresses the problems I've had with the other lists in here I've tried---3+ Deprive was always too many for me; 0 Leak was always too few; 4 Shoal was always too many too, since the Probe ban. I like your splits a lot. The one thing I want to ask you about is the Sanctum over Steam Vents #2; I really hate BS in this deck because of it gives you twice as many "dead lands" on a Moon plan (between BS and Pool). Did this ever come up for you?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@Donkin nice looking list. On paper it addresses the problems I've had with the other lists in here I've tried---3+ Deprive was always too many for me; 0 Leak was always too few; 4 Shoal was always too many too, since the Probe ban. I like your splits a lot. The one thing I want to ask you about is the Sanctum over Steam Vents #2; I really hate BS in this deck because of it gives you twice as many "dead lands" on a Moon plan (between BS and Pool). Did this ever come up for you?
Congrats on the tournament.
Thanks so much for the feedback (this is asdf9660asdf from cockatrice BTW, we've chatted there a few times before).
The BS is a rather recent addition. I found that there were games where I wanted to have another UG source so that I could run out two green threats in one turn. I think this became more of a relevant issue when I added narnam renegade. In the past it was very unlikely to run out 2 goyf or 2 mandrils etc in the same turn, but now running out Narnam and Mandrils on two lands is a real line and I never wanted to fetch stomping grounds as my second land for it.
The sanctum does ok! The only time it actually hurt me was when it wasn't a second fetchland to run out mandrils with counter backup. Also, Sometimes we want to fetch before casting serum or fetch to fuel delve/goyf and we miss our efficient window to play the sanctum. Overall, I think it has more merits than a third wooded foothills. As far as the blood moon scenario, it hasn't come up yet.
Moving forward, I'm still looking for more effective MB/SB answers to grixis deaths shadow. Right now my ideas are:
Adding in more shoal, cutting down on snares. If going down/dropping snares is correct, threads of disloyalty could return to our SB. Going up more surgical extraction in the sb, cutting ???. Lastly, maybe some amount of vapor snag in the MB, they're a great way to deal with delve creatures and helps get them closer to bolt range. Lets get brainstorming, and thankyou all for your kind words!
I feel you on wanting a second Green source. Renegade plus a bigger threat seems like a line you'd want access to. I've mostly felt the same strain with Traverse out a threat and play it, and play a threat and hold up Simic Charm. How helpful is Botanical Sanctum for this though? It seems unlikely that you'd draw that specific land when you want to take a double Green line. I think I actually have fetched Stomping Ground as the second land (after already shocking). I don't like not having double Blue after shocking twice, but sometimes you need that Green more. This could also be a result of playing Traverse instead of Slight (less likely to need the double Blue and less likely to stay on two lands forever).
Edit: I just realized that you have 19 lands in the 75. The "stuck on two lands" thing is a lot less applicable.
Let's tune to beat Grixis!
I have liked Dismember here. Unlike against DSJ, it straight up kills the non-Shadow threats.
I think Snapcaster is a good top end for finishing the opponent (particularly postboard for you with Traverse to tutor, and the greater likelihood of hitting land drops postboard) while also being good when we aren't the beatdown.
Blood Moon can lock them out hard if they don't have Denial up,but I haven't enjoyed Spreading Seas that much here.
Huntmaster is great for making bodies to chump and letting us sort of go wide.
Renegade can make their attacks garbage (I really like Blood Moon into Renegade because they will have trouble removing it).
I'm curious as to why you crossed out the Vapor Snag suggestion. I like it more against DSJ (mainly due to trouble Dismembering Goyfs), but I think it is good here.
How have you guys been using Surgical here? Maybe I'm just not used to the card (or it just isn't my cup of tea), but I haven't liked it much. For graveyard hate against other matchups, I am thinking of using Pillar of Flame. It looks good against Dredge (probably not the same as Surgicaling all the Amalgams), while also giving us good game against Voice, Finks, and friends.
A note on Shoal: are you boarding them out here? I like them game 1, but I think we bring in too many non-Blue cards to keep them in.
I think Threads is far better against DSJ than Grixis (which has counters and high CMC threats), but could still be good.
That's all I have off the top of my head. Opinions and other options?
Thankyou for the kind words Mnesci!
Wanting double green and double blue is exactly why I ran botanical. Do we not always draw it? sure, but the frequency of that line was somewhat low to begin with. Basically I chose BS because I didn't want to fetch shock for it. Idk, maybe another breeding pool is right. When I looked into adding pool it just felt too greedy lifewise.
I will ad dismember to my list of things to try. My only doubt is that it deals so much damage to us. I usually take 5-6 damage off lands already, meaning any normal game where I dismember means I can only allow ~2 swings to get through. thats a little too close for comfort. that being said, I understand the power of the card and am willing to try it.
In what you said about snap, I think Narnam is just better. I don't want to touch my creature suite, I think its the most solid thing in my deck right now.
I always side in blood moon as they usually aren't developing threats turns 1 and 2. shoal is great her for helping us run out an on curve blood moon.
Huntmaster is good, but he is also slow. I've stopped siding him in as I usually want to be dropping a threat and leaving counter magic up. Perhaps I'm wrong though and should revisit our friendly four drop
Renegade is great. Shout out to Blaze for convincing me to play it.
I crossed out vapor snag because I had done some testing last night and I just was not enjoying the card at all. I just don't think it disrupts the opponent enough, and its also a dead card in some matchups. It would be better if I was on snapcaster.
Surgical is a great card because DSJ relies on a small suite of creatures and instants to get anything done. If your opponent thought scours a key card into the GY, you can steal a game. You can rip key cards, you can surgical snap targets, and you can even use it to run out mandrils and take a peak at their hand (much like a banned card we all know). Seemed like a great card for this MU and I wanted more.
I would 100% leave shoal in just to counter a DS, push, or denial. Having a force of will against all the best cards in their deck is awesome, even if it becomes a little less consistent.
My comment about threads wasn't really about how awesome it is against the grixis shadow matchup, but more about how terrible snare is in this MU (and maybe even the meta, its often a card I side out a lot). Not having a spell snare in the deck means we have more live draws against shadow, thats the logic for the cut. The logic for threads is that we'll have more targets for it if we don't counter their 2drop creature.
Moving forward, I was testing an interesting build last night. I used my original list but I cut 2 snare, 1 sanctum.I added 1 shoal 2 simic charm. In the sideboard I cut 1 EE, 1 mountain, and 1Destructive revelry, for 1 surgical and 2threads.
The logic behind these changes is that snare is not a good card right now. This is my opinion, and overall would love to talk more about snare and our counter suite in general. secondly, I want more shoal. I love the lines it gives us and also the security it can give our more aggressive lines. Thirdly, I don't want to lose the ability to counter two drops early. To do this and not play snare, I needed to add more blue 2drops to our gameplan. finally, I decided to go up 2 simic charm. I know thats pretty bold, but the card is just so good in my opinion. bouncing a tassigur after it blocks our mandrils, or pumping goyf to kill a shadow. giving hexproof? it does so much good for our deck in my opinion. That being said, three might be too bold. Needs to be tested more.
In the sideboard we get more surgical which I wanted, and I also added 2 threads. I think 1 might be the correct number, but I just want to draw them for now and see if they're worth testing.
@Donkin and Blaze: congratulations both of you! Glad to hear good news.
@Blaze: I checked the standings during the last couple of rounds on Sunday looking for your results and I was amazed. Surely was better day one, but great results overall in any case. Was your first GP or did you attend other before?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I agree with you on your points for best players and worst. Delver is tempting to keep because if it survives, it is important to us closing out games.
Narnam will be chumped for days by many decks, whereas Delver has plenty of evasion.
With the Probe ban we were able to move away from Helix, and with Bolt dropping in number we were able to move away from Muta, which allowed us to run Shoal alongside Sleight (which serves as a sorcery for Goyf with Probe gone). The result is a deck that Mikefon correctly described as resembling the recent Temur Delver lists in this thread, but trading Moon and Renegade for Path and Nacatl.
In terms of Renegade vs Nacatl, Path covers for Renegade's deathtouch aspect quite well, and having eight one-drop + three-power beaters is awesome. I have also seen some players cut the basic Forest (moving it to the sideboard usually) for a second Steam Vents (probably better to run another fetch instead now that we play Pool). Personally I like having Forest in most of my decks, but I think if you want to cut it from RUG (and in doing so lose Moon anyway), you might want to try Counter-Cat instead.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
On switching Delvers to Renegades, won't this slow down the clock by a good chunk? I know Delver isn't always a 3/2, but once it transforms, the damage can pile on quickly. In the combo matchups, I think Renegade is worse due to a lack of removal and Delver killing faster. With regards to killing through removal, Tarfire and Kolaghan's Command are the only played removal (that I can think of right now) that kill Delver but not Renegade when Revolted. If you rely on Renegade to clock, I think it will be dying about as much as Delver does. In creature-based matchups, I think Renegade will be chumped/traded with more often than it gets in (as Kovo mentioned). I do think that running Renegades over Delvers would probably help the Shadow (and other fatty) matchups. The flip side to that is racing them when their life total gets low will be a bit harder, but I think Renegade is a plus overall for those matchups.
I think you will end up harming your good matchups in exchange for bolstering your bad ones, which is actually quite interesting. You could end up with a Jund-esque 50/50 deck. Maybe even better depending on the changes you make once you don't need to build around Delver.
I don't understand why people say that Delver is a bad topdeck. Could you elaborate? Isn't the chance to transform about the same in the late-game as on turn 2?
With the Probe ban we were able to move away from Helix, and with Bolt dropping in number we were able to move away from Muta, which allowed us to run Shoal alongside Sleight (which serves as a sorcery for Goyf with Probe gone). The result is a deck that Mikefon correctly described as resembling the recent Temur Delver lists in this thread, but trading Moon and Renegade for Path and Nacatl.
In terms of Renegade vs Nacatl, Path covers for Renegade's deathtouch aspect quite well, and having eight one-drop + three-power beaters is awesome. I have also seen some players cut the basic Forest (moving it to the sideboard usually) for a second Steam Vents (probably better to run another fetch instead now that we play Pool). Personally I like having Forest in most of my decks, but I think if you want to cut it from RUG (and in doing so lose Moon anyway), you might want to try Counter-Cat instead.
Why pierce over denial? Is it because only seven 4+ power creatures are played (instead of eight) and they are sligtly slower to came down due to playing few scours? I liked pierce so far but I miss the hard counter denial is late game.
About cutting Delvers. I think it's wrong. They are the reason why renegades are strong. Opponents must spend removal on both and simply they can't thanks to our counter suite. If you cut them there are less lightning rod and removal will be only for them. In addition I agree with mnesci: 2 damage on the ground are far less than 3 on the air.
This is my opinion, but only test will tell us the right way
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Yeah, that's why. Pierce is a very good card to chase one-drops with and we play a lot more than Temur has access to. It's ideal when we're applying pressure; Counter-Cat is more aggressive.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Revolt isn't exactly tough to get, but even in my list with 9 fetches and 4 bauble there are many occasions where I have to choose between playing out a 1/2 or holding it my hand when it could otherwise be beating. Delver gives you an opportunity to race linear decks even if it's a gamble, but a Kird Ape is not a good enough body to be a singular threat carrying the load, which delver often does because it has to. Delver is often the last threat standing because goyf and mandrills so frequently demand opposing removal spells. I think some of us are forgetting renegade clocks an opponent at the same rate snapcaster Mage does, yet people balk at how 'slow' that card is. I don't see how this deck would benefit from slowing down and dropping delver for anything.
I've played temur delver for a long time (since THAT modern nexus article from 2015 introducing the deck to the world). I've been lurking for a while on this thread and can't help but wonder: Why isn't there any discussion on Cryptic Serpent? (Its a card from amonkhet)
I mean without Probe this card can't really get on board really early, and the only way you can possibly cast it early is with a really lucky thought scour.
But it has a much stronger body than mandrills, and that's kinda relavant in this meta with so many big boys (Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron). It also doesn't anti-synergise with Goyf like Mandrills does. (Although like most of you guys already know, this deck usually has enough cards in the yard to delve such that you don't need to shrink your goyfs).
I've been playing with it as a one-of, and I've been a little impressed with it. Fetching it up with traverse in the late game means its almost always only costs UU. I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would love some feedback on whether it is a viable card to add to the deck in some specific metas.
I've played temur delver for a long time (since THAT modern nexus article from 2015 introducing the deck to the world). I've been lurking for a while on this thread and can't help but wonder: Why isn't there any discussion on Cryptic Serpent? (Its a card from amonkhet)
I mean without Probe this card can't really get on board really early, and the only way you can possibly cast it early is with a really lucky thought scour.
But it has a much stronger body than mandrills, and that's kinda relavant in this meta with so many big boys (Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron). It also doesn't anti-synergise with Goyf like Mandrills does. (Although like most of you guys already know, this deck usually has enough cards in the yard to delve such that you don't need to shrink your goyfs).
I've been playing with it as a one-of, and I've been a little impressed with it. Fetching it up with traverse in the late game means its almost always only costs UU. I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would love some feedback on whether it is a viable card to add to the deck in some specific metas.
How long have you been lurking exactly? It was brought up and discussed during spoiler season.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've played temur delver for a long time (since THAT modern nexus article from 2015 introducing the deck to the world). I've been lurking for a while on this thread and can't help but wonder: Why isn't there any discussion on Cryptic Serpent? (Its a card from amonkhet)
I mean without Probe this card can't really get on board really early, and the only way you can possibly cast it early is with a really lucky thought scour.
But it has a much stronger body than mandrills, and that's kinda relavant in this meta with so many big boys (Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron). It also doesn't anti-synergise with Goyf like Mandrills does. (Although like most of you guys already know, this deck usually has enough cards in the yard to delve such that you don't need to shrink your goyfs).
I've been playing with it as a one-of, and I've been a little impressed with it. Fetching it up with traverse in the late game means its almost always only costs UU. I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would love some feedback on whether it is a viable card to add to the deck in some specific metas.
How long have you been lurking exactly? It was brought up and discussed during spoiler season.
Oh really? Well then I probably missed those few posts
The main problem is that even if it's big, it get chumped for days by blockers. If it had flying like delver or trample like mandrills (or even menace would be good enough imho) then I think it would see more play.
Yeah that was one of the problems was that it usually was just an expensive Goyf #5. It was big but no evasion. Oh well time to cut it I guess.
The main problem is that even if it's big, it get chumped for days by blockers. If it had flying like delver or trample like mandrills (or even menace would be good enough imho) then I think it would see more play.
Yeah that was one of the problems was that it usually was just an expensive Goyf #5. It was big but no evasion. Oh well time to cut it I guess.
What did you cut for your one-off Serpent? Has the Serpent been better than that card? It's possible it is playable in a small number. I don't think anyone tested it, so it may very well be good.
That said, I don't think it is good. I've never played it, but in theory, I don't like it. Serpent has a few issues that add up.
It lacks evasion. That means that once you go through the effort of enabling it, you have to get through their board before you can get damage in. Affinity, Dredge, Company, Bant Eldrazi, and even Burn can make plenty of chump blockers. Death's Shadow also gives incentive for people to pack more chump blockers. Lingering Souls is also fairly common currently, so I'd pack an answer to it so that Serpent can get through.
But we play Goyf, which doesn't have evasion either. Evasion isn't essential. However, Goyf comes down reliably on turn 2. That means Goyf has way more time to work it's way through blockers, or to get damage in before they come down.
Costing UU is a serious downside. Either you'll shock more, or you'll have trouble cantriping and countering. Also, Blood Moon. Unless you side this out when you bring Moon in.
I don't think Serpent's stats are actually that good in the meta. I mean, a 6/5 for UU Is a good rate, but Modern is the land of good rates! It doesn't survive combat with Angler, 5/6 Goyfs, Reality Smasher, or Exalted Thought-Knot Seer. Trading with those is a start, but I don't think it is what you need. Angler was great back when everyone was running around with 4/5s. When the common fatties have 5 or more power, 5 toughness doesn't shine through.
Are there any matchups in which you want Huntmaster and Thought Scour, but board out Thought Scour so that you don't mill your only Huntmaster? Or is that risk low enough that you are better off having Thought Scour anyways?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I have previously expressed my disdain for Thought Scour as the deck has limited fetch land targets and you can seriously ruin your own day with blood moon in hand and basics in the graveyard. Unfortunately even with Bauble I think at least three is necessary with three mandrills and frankly I very rarely board out mandrills, and therefore generally leave all my cantrips in. Honestly though, I cannot remember a single instance in which I milled a particular creature and lost because of it, aside from snapcaster mage. I have lost several games to milling a particular land so I suppose it's always been a known risk in this deck.
Been seriously considering a Pulse of Murasa in the board to combat this but I can't realistically see myself bringing it in most of the time I bring moon in, so it probably isnt a perfect fix.
Made top 8 this weekend with RUG delver at the 1k! Everyone decided to split and I walked out with 125 dollars cash!
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments and in depth discussion on the deck. This was my first time cashing out of an event and I have you all to thank. I'll post my list and matchups!
round 1: BW aristocrats? his first comp REL event. 2-0.
round 2: Slivers. tough matchup but not something to really feel bad about losing to, some decks are just gonna meme on you. I also made a pretty significant error due to lack of sleep that allegedly lost me game two (not traversing before casting bloodmoon) 0-2
round 3: GR TitanScapeshift. I play a lot of scapeshift so I knew what to do and what to expect. Game one I win on the back of delver. Game two he wins through bloodmoon with titan, baloth, and chandra. Game three he kept a hand full of ETB tapped lands. He could of stabilized if I did not counter his tribe elder. 2-1
Round 4: UB shadow. The premier matchup. Game one my opponent has what must of been a slower start. Our creatures do a lot of trading and the interactions between goyf and my oponents graveyard are interesting to play around. I had an amazing thought scour where I ended up putting creature and sorcery into my graveyard, making my goyf a 5/6, able to swing into/block his angler. My opponent didn't see a deaths shadow until late in the game, where I let them die to their own bitterblossom. Game two I saw my MB tech for the matchup. I was able to bolt 2 deaths shadows out of the game, blocked a gurmag angler with narnam renegade, and countered a deaths shadow with disrupting shoal while tapped out. The shoal left them open for lethal. 2-0
Round 5: ID. Total record 3-1-1
Top 8 decided to split.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Narnam Renegade
// 22 Instant
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Deprive
1 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Disrupting Shoal
1 Simic Charm
3 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Botanical Sanctum
// 6 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Blood Moon
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Mountain
2 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Surgical Extraction
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Congrats on the tournament.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Thanks so much for the feedback (this is asdf9660asdf from cockatrice BTW, we've chatted there a few times before).
The BS is a rather recent addition. I found that there were games where I wanted to have another UG source so that I could run out two green threats in one turn. I think this became more of a relevant issue when I added narnam renegade. In the past it was very unlikely to run out 2 goyf or 2 mandrils etc in the same turn, but now running out Narnam and Mandrils on two lands is a real line and I never wanted to fetch stomping grounds as my second land for it.
The sanctum does ok! The only time it actually hurt me was when it wasn't a second fetchland to run out mandrils with counter backup. Also, Sometimes we want to fetch before casting serum or fetch to fuel delve/goyf and we miss our efficient window to play the sanctum. Overall, I think it has more merits than a third wooded foothills. As far as the blood moon scenario, it hasn't come up yet.
Moving forward, I'm still looking for more effective MB/SB answers to grixis deaths shadow. Right now my ideas are:
Adding in more shoal, cutting down on snares. If going down/dropping snares is correct, threads of disloyalty could return to our SB. Going up more surgical extraction in the sb, cutting ???. Lastly,
maybe some amount of vapor snag in the MB, they're a great way to deal with delve creatures and helps get them closer to bolt range. Lets get brainstorming, and thankyou all for your kind words!I feel you on wanting a second Green source. Renegade plus a bigger threat seems like a line you'd want access to. I've mostly felt the same strain with Traverse out a threat and play it, and play a threat and hold up Simic Charm. How helpful is Botanical Sanctum for this though? It seems unlikely that you'd draw that specific land when you want to take a double Green line. I think I actually have fetched Stomping Ground as the second land (after already shocking). I don't like not having double Blue after shocking twice, but sometimes you need that Green more. This could also be a result of playing Traverse instead of Slight (less likely to need the double Blue and less likely to stay on two lands forever).
Edit: I just realized that you have 19 lands in the 75. The "stuck on two lands" thing is a lot less applicable.
Let's tune to beat Grixis!
I have liked Dismember here. Unlike against DSJ, it straight up kills the non-Shadow threats.
I think Snapcaster is a good top end for finishing the opponent (particularly postboard for you with Traverse to tutor, and the greater likelihood of hitting land drops postboard) while also being good when we aren't the beatdown.
Blood Moon can lock them out hard if they don't have Denial up,but I haven't enjoyed Spreading Seas that much here.
Huntmaster is great for making bodies to chump and letting us sort of go wide.
Renegade can make their attacks garbage (I really like Blood Moon into Renegade because they will have trouble removing it).
I'm curious as to why you crossed out the Vapor Snag suggestion. I like it more against DSJ (mainly due to trouble Dismembering Goyfs), but I think it is good here.
How have you guys been using Surgical here? Maybe I'm just not used to the card (or it just isn't my cup of tea), but I haven't liked it much. For graveyard hate against other matchups, I am thinking of using Pillar of Flame. It looks good against Dredge (probably not the same as Surgicaling all the Amalgams), while also giving us good game against Voice, Finks, and friends.
A note on Shoal: are you boarding them out here? I like them game 1, but I think we bring in too many non-Blue cards to keep them in.
I think Threads is far better against DSJ than Grixis (which has counters and high CMC threats), but could still be good.
That's all I have off the top of my head. Opinions and other options?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Wanting double green and double blue is exactly why I ran botanical. Do we not always draw it? sure, but the frequency of that line was somewhat low to begin with. Basically I chose BS because I didn't want to fetch shock for it. Idk, maybe another breeding pool is right. When I looked into adding pool it just felt too greedy lifewise.
I will ad dismember to my list of things to try. My only doubt is that it deals so much damage to us. I usually take 5-6 damage off lands already, meaning any normal game where I dismember means I can only allow ~2 swings to get through. thats a little too close for comfort. that being said, I understand the power of the card and am willing to try it.
In what you said about snap, I think Narnam is just better. I don't want to touch my creature suite, I think its the most solid thing in my deck right now.
I always side in blood moon as they usually aren't developing threats turns 1 and 2. shoal is great her for helping us run out an on curve blood moon.
Huntmaster is good, but he is also slow. I've stopped siding him in as I usually want to be dropping a threat and leaving counter magic up. Perhaps I'm wrong though and should revisit our friendly four drop
Renegade is great. Shout out to Blaze for convincing me to play it.
I crossed out vapor snag because I had done some testing last night and I just was not enjoying the card at all. I just don't think it disrupts the opponent enough, and its also a dead card in some matchups. It would be better if I was on snapcaster.
Surgical is a great card because DSJ relies on a small suite of creatures and instants to get anything done. If your opponent thought scours a key card into the GY, you can steal a game. You can rip key cards, you can surgical snap targets, and you can even use it to run out mandrils and take a peak at their hand (much like a banned card we all know). Seemed like a great card for this MU and I wanted more.
I would 100% leave shoal in just to counter a DS, push, or denial. Having a force of will against all the best cards in their deck is awesome, even if it becomes a little less consistent.
My comment about threads wasn't really about how awesome it is against the grixis shadow matchup, but more about how terrible snare is in this MU (and maybe even the meta, its often a card I side out a lot). Not having a spell snare in the deck means we have more live draws against shadow, thats the logic for the cut. The logic for threads is that we'll have more targets for it if we don't counter their 2drop creature.
Moving forward, I was testing an interesting build last night. I used my original list but I cut 2 snare, 1 sanctum.I added 1 shoal 2 simic charm. In the sideboard I cut 1 EE, 1 mountain, and 1Destructive revelry, for 1 surgical and 2threads.
The logic behind these changes is that snare is not a good card right now. This is my opinion, and overall would love to talk more about snare and our counter suite in general. secondly, I want more shoal. I love the lines it gives us and also the security it can give our more aggressive lines. Thirdly, I don't want to lose the ability to counter two drops early. To do this and not play snare, I needed to add more blue 2drops to our gameplan. finally, I decided to go up 2 simic charm. I know thats pretty bold, but the card is just so good in my opinion. bouncing a tassigur after it blocks our mandrils, or pumping goyf to kill a shadow. giving hexproof? it does so much good for our deck in my opinion. That being said, three might be too bold. Needs to be tested more.
In the sideboard we get more surgical which I wanted, and I also added 2 threads. I think 1 might be the correct number, but I just want to draw them for now and see if they're worth testing.
@Blaze: I checked the standings during the last couple of rounds on Sunday looking for your results and I was amazed. Surely was better day one, but great results overall in any case. Was your first GP or did you attend other before?
Modern:
Narnam will be chumped for days by many decks, whereas Delver has plenty of evasion.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Thought Scour
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
Sorceries (7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Pyroclasm
2 Spreading Seas
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
In terms of Renegade vs Nacatl, Path covers for Renegade's deathtouch aspect quite well, and having eight one-drop + three-power beaters is awesome. I have also seen some players cut the basic Forest (moving it to the sideboard usually) for a second Steam Vents (probably better to run another fetch instead now that we play Pool). Personally I like having Forest in most of my decks, but I think if you want to cut it from RUG (and in doing so lose Moon anyway), you might want to try Counter-Cat instead.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
On switching Delvers to Renegades, won't this slow down the clock by a good chunk? I know Delver isn't always a 3/2, but once it transforms, the damage can pile on quickly. In the combo matchups, I think Renegade is worse due to a lack of removal and Delver killing faster. With regards to killing through removal, Tarfire and Kolaghan's Command are the only played removal (that I can think of right now) that kill Delver but not Renegade when Revolted. If you rely on Renegade to clock, I think it will be dying about as much as Delver does. In creature-based matchups, I think Renegade will be chumped/traded with more often than it gets in (as Kovo mentioned). I do think that running Renegades over Delvers would probably help the Shadow (and other fatty) matchups. The flip side to that is racing them when their life total gets low will be a bit harder, but I think Renegade is a plus overall for those matchups.
I think you will end up harming your good matchups in exchange for bolstering your bad ones, which is actually quite interesting. You could end up with a Jund-esque 50/50 deck. Maybe even better depending on the changes you make once you don't need to build around Delver.
I don't understand why people say that Delver is a bad topdeck. Could you elaborate? Isn't the chance to transform about the same in the late-game as on turn 2?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Why pierce over denial? Is it because only seven 4+ power creatures are played (instead of eight) and they are sligtly slower to came down due to playing few scours? I liked pierce so far but I miss the hard counter denial is late game.
About cutting Delvers. I think it's wrong. They are the reason why renegades are strong. Opponents must spend removal on both and simply they can't thanks to our counter suite. If you cut them there are less lightning rod and removal will be only for them. In addition I agree with mnesci: 2 damage on the ground are far less than 3 on the air.
This is my opinion, but only test will tell us the right way
Modern:
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've played temur delver for a long time (since THAT modern nexus article from 2015 introducing the deck to the world). I've been lurking for a while on this thread and can't help but wonder: Why isn't there any discussion on Cryptic Serpent? (Its a card from amonkhet)
I mean without Probe this card can't really get on board really early, and the only way you can possibly cast it early is with a really lucky thought scour.
But it has a much stronger body than mandrills, and that's kinda relavant in this meta with so many big boys (Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron). It also doesn't anti-synergise with Goyf like Mandrills does. (Although like most of you guys already know, this deck usually has enough cards in the yard to delve such that you don't need to shrink your goyfs).
I've been playing with it as a one-of, and I've been a little impressed with it. Fetching it up with traverse in the late game means its almost always only costs UU. I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would love some feedback on whether it is a viable card to add to the deck in some specific metas.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Oh really? Well then I probably missed those few posts
Yeah that was one of the problems was that it usually was just an expensive Goyf #5. It was big but no evasion. Oh well time to cut it I guess.
What did you cut for your one-off Serpent? Has the Serpent been better than that card? It's possible it is playable in a small number. I don't think anyone tested it, so it may very well be good.
That said, I don't think it is good. I've never played it, but in theory, I don't like it. Serpent has a few issues that add up.
It lacks evasion. That means that once you go through the effort of enabling it, you have to get through their board before you can get damage in. Affinity, Dredge, Company, Bant Eldrazi, and even Burn can make plenty of chump blockers. Death's Shadow also gives incentive for people to pack more chump blockers. Lingering Souls is also fairly common currently, so I'd pack an answer to it so that Serpent can get through.
But we play Goyf, which doesn't have evasion either. Evasion isn't essential. However, Goyf comes down reliably on turn 2. That means Goyf has way more time to work it's way through blockers, or to get damage in before they come down.
Costing UU is a serious downside. Either you'll shock more, or you'll have trouble cantriping and countering. Also, Blood Moon. Unless you side this out when you bring Moon in.
I don't think Serpent's stats are actually that good in the meta. I mean, a 6/5 for UU Is a good rate, but Modern is the land of good rates! It doesn't survive combat with Angler, 5/6 Goyfs, Reality Smasher, or Exalted Thought-Knot Seer. Trading with those is a start, but I don't think it is what you need. Angler was great back when everyone was running around with 4/5s. When the common fatties have 5 or more power, 5 toughness doesn't shine through.
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