A new member but long time reader and rug-player here. I feel that the meta is all about fatal push and path so I still play 4 Disrupting Shoals.
I am excited about the new Nissa:
She can be pitched to Shoal to stop 2-drops, she can scry to flip delvers and if the game turns into a stalemate of goyf wars she can ulti for some explosive damage. Any thoughts about her?
Again, its a card that looks cool, but I cannot imagine what I would take out to make room for her, and still have a meaningful impact. The issue is she cannot defend herself, and this deck does not do well, durddling around with its creatures. So I think she too is a miss for temur delver.
As for Push/Path, I do not run Shoal anymore and I still find it alright. I mean, if my opponent has 3 pushes in hand, well then gg, he got lucky. Not muich we can do, even with shoal
I think the jury is still out on Shoal. Sometimes it sucks, but sometimes it does things no other counter can do.
In other news, I have killed a goyf, Death's Shadow, and two Puresteel Paladins with Pongify. The lulz part of it is, I died to a frog token once. I've been trying to join Mr. Mnes in making RUG vids but I keep having players quit or time out from slow play. Did get a solid match vs Shadow Jund.
I think the jury is still out on Shoal. Sometimes it sucks, but sometimes it does things no other counter can do.
In other news, I have killed a goyf, Death's Shadow, and two Puresteel Paladins with Pongify. The lulz part of it is, I died to a frog token once. I've been trying to join Mr. Mnes in making RUG vids but I keep having players quit or time out from slow play. Did get a solid match vs Shadow Jund.
I think that playing or not shoal is a matter of playstyle. I find shoal lists fit better with my playstyle and whenever I play a deck without them I miss them too much. But watching videos of shoal-less lists I see that they work pretty well anyway.
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Decks played: Modern:
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URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
A new member but long time reader and rug-player here. I feel that the meta is all about fatal push and path so I still play 4 Disrupting Shoals.
I am excited about the new Nissa:
She can be pitched to Shoal to stop 2-drops, she can scry to flip delvers and if the game turns into a stalemate of goyf wars she can ulti for some explosive damage. Any thoughts about her?
Again, its a card that looks cool, but I cannot imagine what I would take out to make room for her, and still have a meaningful impact. The issue is she cannot defend herself, and this deck does not do well, durddling around with its creatures. So I think she too is a miss for temur delver.
As for Push/Path, I do not run Shoal anymore and I still find it alright. I mean, if my opponent has 3 pushes in hand, well then gg, he got lucky. Not muich we can do, even with shoal
On Nissa, she just doesn't seem great here to me. She can pitch to Shoal for 2, but if you cut something that can't also pitch for 2 (Snapcaster, Simic Charm), you are raising the curve, which could be dangerous. Also, there is no way you cut either of those for her.
Maybe she could be a sideboard thing for slower matchups where the card selection could help, but scrying 2 is probably worth less than a card, and we have Serum Visions for such a role. She also costs us st least 3 mana, which is a lot. If you hit enough land drops, she basically just wins the game when you cast her, but that is niche. You also need to cut something for her, and whatever you pick probably wins you more games.
On Path/Push vs Shoal, nothing will help us if our opponent just gets the removal nut-draw. I don't think we should ever even worry about those games, because they are very rare and very lopsided. Where Shoal helps is letting you get an extra counter in when they have a couple spells that deal with the threat. Playing a Goyf on turn 3 with Shoal pitch something, plus Denial in hand is very powerful. I know you already know this, Kovo, but I wanted to say it for other people reading about the Shoal debate. The main downside I see with Shoal is that if you draw too many, you run out of gas almost immediately (pitching to itself does help this somewhat).
I think the jury is still out on Shoal. Sometimes it sucks, but sometimes it does things no other counter can do.
In other news, I have killed a goyf, Death's Shadow, and two Puresteel Paladins with Pongify. The lulz part of it is, I died to a frog token once. I've been trying to join Mr. Mnes in making RUG vids but I keep having players quit or time out from slow play. Did get a solid match vs Shadow Jund.
I think that playing or not shoal is a matter of playstyle. I find shoal lists fit better with my playstyle and whenever I play a deck without them I miss them too much. But watching videos of shoal-less lists I see that they work pretty well anyway.
I think this is the best way we can describe Shoal. If you want to be a little faster and be able to "tap-out" a bit more often, run Shoal. If you want to be slower (waiting to play threats until you have mana up to interact) and more resilient, don't play Shoal. I don't think the decision significantly affects your win percentage as long as you play with that choice in mind.
I have been running exactly one Shoal in my list for a little while, and I like where its at. I don't see it too often, but when it is there, it usually does work. I kind of want to squeeze in a second to make it show up a little more often, but all of our cards are just so good.
I think the jury is still out on Shoal. Sometimes it sucks, but sometimes it does things no other counter can do.
In other news, I have killed a goyf, Death's Shadow, and two Puresteel Paladins with Pongify. The lulz part of it is, I died to a frog token once. I've been trying to join Mr. Mnes in making RUG vids but I keep having players quit or time out from slow play. Did get a solid match vs Shadow Jund.
Assuming you are talking about Xmage, you could try decreasing the allowed quit percentage of players joining. After a few people quit in a row (after sideboarding too! It's like they are trying to waste my time), I got pissed off and dropped it to 30%. I haven't had it there for long, but I think it has helped.
For slow play, you could try mentioning it in the title of your game. I don't find I run into it very often though. When people are a bit slow, I just try to think of something to talk about to keep from having dead air time.
@mnesci: Just watched a video. In g2 against Burn did you forget about Stomping? Could have taken 4 from Devil, fetched a tapped Ground, fetched Island and gone Scour, Hooting. Instead you Shoaled his Devil and pitched the Scour, which didn't let you establish a clock until turn 3. Why get Vents with the first fetch when you'll be forced to shock to have green the following turn?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@mnesci: Just watched a video. In g2 against Burn did you forget about Stomping? Could have taken 4 from Devil, fetched a tapped Ground, fetched Island and gone Scour, Hooting. Instead you Shoaled his Devil and pitched the Scour, which didn't let you establish a clock until turn 3. Why get Vents with the first fetch when you'll be forced to shock to have green the following turn?
BTW I quite like Scour in this matchup!
I think the way I fetched revolved around Shoaling the Devil. I could get the Steam Vents tapped, and probably wouldn't need to shock turn two because it was unlikely I'd end up playing multiple spells.
If I went for Scour into Mandrills, I think I'd get Island and Stomping Ground. In hindsight, I should have just taken the Devil damage and gotten the clock down.
I like Scour in general, but against aggressive decks I usually take an amount out to make room for more removal which will indirectly fill the yard. Scour is a bit better against Burn due to us needing a clock, but if the removal in the board is good enough against them, I'm willing to drop some Scours.
I have some questions about the general rug vs jund/junk/dsjund matchups that feels very rough.
I feel that I absolutely need to stop Liliana of the Veil or it´s basically scoop and go to game 2 and I usually feel that i MUST keep spell pierce/stubborn/leak etc up on my opponent's third turn but that makes the first turns messed up and I don't dare to apply pressure. A prime example is a situation like this:
My opponent is on the play and on his second turn he has something like Overgrown Tomb, Swamp and a Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer and passes the turn.
I untap and now I have a Breeding Pool and an Island in play.
My hand is: Goyf, Delver, Mana Leak, Serum Vision.
I need to apply pressure with a Goyf but if he lands a Lily then the game feels unwinnable since he will kill my goyf and even if I land another creature the next turn he has a blocker to protect Lily. If I keep Mana Leak up I can hinder his next play but then the Bob/Grim will put me under pressure and dig into more removals. What is the best line of play?
I almost always play around Lili. Against Shadow, I usually ignore the possibility of a turn 3 Lili because it is far rarer than against the slower versions, and they usually run Lili Last Hope for threat recursion, which is much less of a beating.
In the situation you described, we are severely disadvantaged. You basically have to hold up Leak and pray to top deck a land. If you put the shields down, they can resolve Lili and you basically just lose. Or you put the shields down, they don't have Lili, but they probably have a removal spell, putting you back in the same spot next turn.
Being on the play is far more forgiving because you can tap out on turn two. Basically, always try to get on board when they can't Lili, and never play into a Lili. Stubborn Denial derives 90% of its usefulness in the matchup from countering Liliana.
I'm having quite a bit of trouble keeping a threat on the board despite running shoal, because of the prevalence of push, path etc. Subsequently my denials are often dead in hand. Is there a thought on possibly running pierce instead to make it more consistent, say without shoal and with some other counters in support. I'm running a previously standard counter suite of 4/3/3 Shoal, denial, leak. Thoughts and ideas appreciated, I would like to get back to Monkeying around, and off Esper for a while.
I run 1 SP in the 75, and I like it there. Its saved me more than once. I dont think we need more. Denial is still the king counter in this deck.
As for Lili: listen, sometimes they are going to push/decay your threats turn 1-2 and then land a lili. You cannot play around it every game. Sometimes it lands and its almost always an immediate scoop. But not always. Having removal in hand helps, assuming her first activation is -2. But if your opponent has the nutts, he has the nutts. Those are games you need to put behind you.
That being said, do not blindly tap-out turn 2 if you have an answer for lili, even if you're not sure your opp has it in hand.
I think Soul-scar Mage deserves a second look. Allowing our bolts to shrink creatures is huge game in a deck that boasts a 4/4 trampler. If you're running traverse SSM gives you a fifth one drop to create early pressure while allowing you to answer bulky bodies much more easily, a glaring flaw in this archetype. Searching it up against jund or coco could be gamebreaking. This opens up options like lavamancer or staticaster to wreak havoc from the sideboard as well.
That is pretty interesting. I might try one over my second Snapcaster. Having a maindeck way to shrink fatties could be useful. I don't think you even need specific sideboard stuff like Staticaster to support it. A simple sweeper does work here. Prowess makes this live through a Pyroclasm. That puts 2 -1/-1 counters on each of their creatures. That is really good.
Oh yes that's right, clasm takes care of finks just as easily as anger in that scenario. interesting.
If your opponent has a 4/5 goyf attacking, you can shrink the goyf with a bolt and it will just bounce off the 2/3 wizard. I think there is potential there.
Oh yes that's right, clasm takes care of finks just as easily as anger in that scenario. interesting.
If your opponent has a 4/5 goyf attacking, you can shrink the goyf with a bolt and it will just bounce off the 2/3 wizard. I think there is potential there.
I'm not sure this card applies enough pressure to be useful. It competes with Swiftspear in a deck that already has an optimized creature lineup and doesn't play Swiftspear.
A build playing SSM might want more damage-based removal, like Tarfire or even Flame Slash, in the flex spots. SSM's ability makes Simic Charm less necessary.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Oh yes that's right, clasm takes care of finks just as easily as anger in that scenario. interesting.
If your opponent has a 4/5 goyf attacking, you can shrink the goyf with a bolt and it will just bounce off the 2/3 wizard. I think there is potential there.
It won't just bounce off the Mage, it will shrink by two more points. Mage himself also gets the pseudo-Wither.
That said, I'm not sure this card applies enough pressure to be useful. A build playing it would probably want more damage-based removal, like Tarfire or even Flame Slash, in the flex spots. Forked Bolt also looks great with SSM.
Are you sure? I just read the card, and I am not seeing SSM giving itself pseudo-wither. It would deal two damage to the Goyf though (prowess), so a 4/5 becoming a 1/2 would not survive combat.
Tarfire and Forked Bolt are already my favourite flex slot fillers. Being able to Traverse this late is relevant, but I don't know how good that will be (it isn't a great topdeck on its own). Of course, if you need topdeck action, you could Traverse for something else. My main concern is that running more than one of these and my Traverses (currently two) would hurt Shoal. Maybe it's only good as a 2+ of and without Shoal.
Another concern I have is that it isn't a great clock, but if we don't cut clocks for it, that isn't a huge deal.
How about narcolepsy? I know I'm reaching a little. But enchantment hate is low, it pitches to shoal countering things we love snare for, it removes creatures from attacking or blocking. and pumps up goyf.
Can't be snapped back but it's not like I'm excited to snap / dismemeber anyway.
It doesn't flip delver ...
Or at this point would a person just be better to force roast?
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Again, its a card that looks cool, but I cannot imagine what I would take out to make room for her, and still have a meaningful impact. The issue is she cannot defend herself, and this deck does not do well, durddling around with its creatures. So I think she too is a miss for temur delver.
As for Push/Path, I do not run Shoal anymore and I still find it alright. I mean, if my opponent has 3 pushes in hand, well then gg, he got lucky. Not muich we can do, even with shoal
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
In other news, I have killed a goyf, Death's Shadow, and two Puresteel Paladins with Pongify. The lulz part of it is, I died to a frog token once. I've been trying to join Mr. Mnes in making RUG vids but I keep having players quit or time out from slow play. Did get a solid match vs Shadow Jund.
I think that playing or not shoal is a matter of playstyle. I find shoal lists fit better with my playstyle and whenever I play a deck without them I miss them too much. But watching videos of shoal-less lists I see that they work pretty well anyway.
Modern:
On Nissa, she just doesn't seem great here to me. She can pitch to Shoal for 2, but if you cut something that can't also pitch for 2 (Snapcaster, Simic Charm), you are raising the curve, which could be dangerous. Also, there is no way you cut either of those for her.
Maybe she could be a sideboard thing for slower matchups where the card selection could help, but scrying 2 is probably worth less than a card, and we have Serum Visions for such a role. She also costs us st least 3 mana, which is a lot. If you hit enough land drops, she basically just wins the game when you cast her, but that is niche. You also need to cut something for her, and whatever you pick probably wins you more games.
On Path/Push vs Shoal, nothing will help us if our opponent just gets the removal nut-draw. I don't think we should ever even worry about those games, because they are very rare and very lopsided. Where Shoal helps is letting you get an extra counter in when they have a couple spells that deal with the threat. Playing a Goyf on turn 3 with Shoal pitch something, plus Denial in hand is very powerful. I know you already know this, Kovo, but I wanted to say it for other people reading about the Shoal debate. The main downside I see with Shoal is that if you draw too many, you run out of gas almost immediately (pitching to itself does help this somewhat).
I think this is the best way we can describe Shoal. If you want to be a little faster and be able to "tap-out" a bit more often, run Shoal. If you want to be slower (waiting to play threats until you have mana up to interact) and more resilient, don't play Shoal. I don't think the decision significantly affects your win percentage as long as you play with that choice in mind.
I have been running exactly one Shoal in my list for a little while, and I like where its at. I don't see it too often, but when it is there, it usually does work. I kind of want to squeeze in a second to make it show up a little more often, but all of our cards are just so good.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Assuming you are talking about Xmage, you could try decreasing the allowed quit percentage of players joining. After a few people quit in a row (after sideboarding too! It's like they are trying to waste my time), I got pissed off and dropped it to 30%. I haven't had it there for long, but I think it has helped.
For slow play, you could try mentioning it in the title of your game. I don't find I run into it very often though. When people are a bit slow, I just try to think of something to talk about to keep from having dead air time.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
BTW I quite like Scour in this matchup!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I think the way I fetched revolved around Shoaling the Devil. I could get the Steam Vents tapped, and probably wouldn't need to shock turn two because it was unlikely I'd end up playing multiple spells.
If I went for Scour into Mandrills, I think I'd get Island and Stomping Ground. In hindsight, I should have just taken the Devil damage and gotten the clock down.
I like Scour in general, but against aggressive decks I usually take an amount out to make room for more removal which will indirectly fill the yard. Scour is a bit better against Burn due to us needing a clock, but if the removal in the board is good enough against them, I'm willing to drop some Scours.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I almost always play around Lili. Against Shadow, I usually ignore the possibility of a turn 3 Lili because it is far rarer than against the slower versions, and they usually run Lili Last Hope for threat recursion, which is much less of a beating.
In the situation you described, we are severely disadvantaged. You basically have to hold up Leak and pray to top deck a land. If you put the shields down, they can resolve Lili and you basically just lose. Or you put the shields down, they don't have Lili, but they probably have a removal spell, putting you back in the same spot next turn.
Being on the play is far more forgiving because you can tap out on turn two. Basically, always try to get on board when they can't Lili, and never play into a Lili. Stubborn Denial derives 90% of its usefulness in the matchup from countering Liliana.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
As for Lili: listen, sometimes they are going to push/decay your threats turn 1-2 and then land a lili. You cannot play around it every game. Sometimes it lands and its almost always an immediate scoop. But not always. Having removal in hand helps, assuming her first activation is -2. But if your opponent has the nutts, he has the nutts. Those are games you need to put behind you.
That being said, do not blindly tap-out turn 2 if you have an answer for lili, even if you're not sure your opp has it in hand.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I dont see the need considering the other tools at our disposal. 3 mana is also a lot to hold-up.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
If your opponent has a 4/5 goyf attacking, you can shrink the goyf with a bolt and it will just bounce off the 2/3 wizard. I think there is potential there.
A build playing SSM might want more damage-based removal, like Tarfire or even Flame Slash, in the flex spots. SSM's ability makes Simic Charm less necessary.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Are you sure? I just read the card, and I am not seeing SSM giving itself pseudo-wither. It would deal two damage to the Goyf though (prowess), so a 4/5 becoming a 1/2 would not survive combat.
Tarfire and Forked Bolt are already my favourite flex slot fillers. Being able to Traverse this late is relevant, but I don't know how good that will be (it isn't a great topdeck on its own). Of course, if you need topdeck action, you could Traverse for something else. My main concern is that running more than one of these and my Traverses (currently two) would hurt Shoal. Maybe it's only good as a 2+ of and without Shoal.
Another concern I have is that it isn't a great clock, but if we don't cut clocks for it, that isn't a huge deal.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
How about narcolepsy? I know I'm reaching a little. But enchantment hate is low, it pitches to shoal countering things we love snare for, it removes creatures from attacking or blocking. and pumps up goyf.
Can't be snapped back but it's not like I'm excited to snap / dismemeber anyway.
It doesn't flip delver ...
Or at this point would a person just be better to force roast?
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver