MTG Salvation

*If* we played Mongoose, would that justify wanting to try Domri, Anarch of Bolas, to get the +1 power boost, or does that just water our deck down too much?

Quote from CatParty »

*If* we played Mongoose, would that justify wanting to try Domri, Anarch of Bolas, to get the +1 power boost, or does that just water our deck down too much?

I actually don't think Domri sucks in this shell in general, be it alongside Mandrills or Mongoose: http://modernnexus.com/war-domri-temur-delver-gr-moon/

Quite nice that we can slam Domri on 3 mana and immediately plus it to cast either green threat. But I think the walker lends itself more easily to the Mandrills build by overtly meshing with Stubborn via Delver pumps and being less counterspell-heavy as a result of playing its threats on average later than the Mongoose builds will want to.

I do like how Mongoose takes pressure off the sideboard for midrange (and especially control) matchups. No more do we need to run stuff like Huntmaster just to outlast enemy removal; we can dodge it entirely as a plan. We do become significantly weaker to more types of grave hate though, incl. stuff like Nihil Spellbomb that we literally have never cared about.

Well, here's Wrenn and Six...

2cmc - RG
+1 Return a land from your grave to your hand.
-1 Ping any target
-7 Instants and sorceries in our grave gain retrace (you can cast this card from you grave by discarding a land in addition to paying its cost)

I dunno if it's useful for us. I like how cheap it is though. It could maybe take the place of a land even. The ping effect is useful in a number of matchups, lets us ping manadorks and save our actual bolts for bigger fish. Doubt we'd ever get to 7 loyalty though, and I dunno just how much we'd want to be getting lands back each turn, though it does help think our deck a lot.

What do you guys think of Bazaar Trademage as another piece in combination with Nimble Mongoose? It doesn't turn on ferocious but it draws cards, fuels the graveyard for goose / goyfs and has evasion to punch through.

Wrenn and six is not what we want.

At three mana for trademage I think snapcaster does more for us.

Sorry to be a debbie downer. But currently I have to agree with MikeFon. We haven't really seen much more than FoN at best for us. Yet... Spoilers not finished though.

Oh that archmage charm! If it didn't cost UUU! Pity for us. :/

If we get some Wasteland analog, Wrenn and Six will be solid. Until then, probably not.

Why is everyone so convinced Force of Negation is a sideboard card?

I keep coming back to it allowing us to cut blue cards, still leaving 22-23, and to run some more hardnosed removal that we've previously not been running due to blue count issues. Play a Flame Slash or Roast, a Dismember, etc. You don't need to worry as much about countering creatures when you can just kill them.

I'm worried because it's a problem of tempo. If you have shoal you can counter whatever costs 2 or less. If you have FoN and they play a creature you have to look for a removal. It's true you'll be playing more but it's not costless. That said, I don't want to dismiss FoN (that will surely help a lot), but which is the best configuration is not all that clear (at least to me).

It's basically up to Stubborn Denial. If Denial is too good not to play (and we still run Mandrills), then Force of Negation isn't maindeckable (and Disrupting Shoal is still better as a maindeck solution, imho). If we don't run Stubb, then Force of Negation is a real canditate for the same spots (and the full set could be totally worth it). In this case, if we were to cut Shoals, I would certainly play some numbers of Spell Snare (if you don't already).

The heart of the matter is it's usually creature decks we have the most problem with once their toughness is 4 or greater. I honestly don't know if FoN will actually make roast any more playable (considering how our deck is supposed to operate) sure FoN frees up room to play it but it still isn't the removal spell we want. On the same token, that's also why I think mongoose isn't a fit for this deck given the lack of the power level the legacy support cards give it as I've started before. It still doesn't better us against creature decks with big butts. I'd far rather go back to bedlam reveler if we are going to jam another gy "dependant" card. Again it's an optional meta card.

I'll definitely be buying a play set of FoN but right now I'm pretty tempted not to touch or evolve the deck too greatly. But we haven't even seen the first HALF of the MH set yet. We may get something we want EVEN more yet. Fingers crossed.

What are people’s thoughts on Hexdrinker? It could potentially replace mandrills. I can see turn 1 hexdrinker, turn 2 hold up counter magic/cantrip/etc., turn 3 either dump mana to make it a 4/4 pro instants if you know it’s safe, otherwise just use 1 mana to get it a counter and then play a 2 drop or hold up counter magic.

I would probably run FoN over stubs in this set up. Even if we do tap out to try and make hexdrinker a 4/4 and we get blown out by removal in response, we can still FoN something on opponent’s turn.

I’m just thinking that a 1 mana 2/1 isn’t THAT bad of a body on its own plus it’s not graveyard reliant. And because our deck runs on such thin margins, it’s not that unlikely that we put 1 or 2 mana into it for a turn or two to give it level counters while still having mana open to do other things. Being tapped out now also doesn’t necessarily mean we are defenseless if we run shoal and/or FoN.

Uhum. THAT one is an interesting creature. I dare to say it's better than Mangoose against any non-Control matchup. Having a 2/1 on turn one is a real clock, and it can become big quite fast. Basically, it's what Pteramander should be without depending on the graveyard.

Add it to the list of things to check out.

I saw the card and was thinking of it for cube, and it didn't even occur to me it'd be good here. But I think it might be. Gets us out of running Thought Scour, too.

EDIT: Just trying to visualize how this might change things. Simic Charm is a nonbo, and I think Stubborn Denial is pretty bad with it. I'm most comfortable with an 18 land, 14 creature build with a pair of Snaps, so that's where I'll start.

Quote from MikePemulis »

Gets us out of running Thought Scour, too.

Which is, basically, the most appealing feature of it.

Agreed. I hate thought scour. Does it open up the option of playing some amount of Opts? Being able to see what we are drawing would be helpful to keep drawing gas.

Those slots seem perfect for a couple of looting and an opt.

I thought about mongoose list. If we go all in on graveyard we could run this creatures suite.
4 delver
3 mongoose
3 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Goyf
2 Domri (which are pretty nasty with dryad)
Any thoughts?

I have good expectations for Hexdrinker.


One thing to note is that it might be hard to make it to level 3, but once it does get to level 3 it is actually very likely to get to level 8. If you untap this with pro instant you need to have 5 mana(which might be parceled and protect by counterspells) and it is game over.

Even if you don't curve out doing these things, the threat of doing these things forces your opponent to play in other ways, they will have to keep one eye on this guy. Take a look at the tension this simple 1 drop generates on the board, your opponent won't be able to tap out for a Liliana of the veil(or pretty much anything) because one counterspell might severely punishes them, and if you untap while they are tapped out, this might be game over for them. Also tapping out for a creature of their own might be punished by this. I dare my opponent to tap out for anything while I have a Hexdrinker on board from turn 3 on, they will have to at least represent fatal push, lightning bolt or path to exile all the time.

And on top of it all, in many games a 2/1 turn 1 can get us there actually, or if it ends up trading for removal it is only one mana spent anyway.

We will need a lot of testing to sort out the best deck configuration after this set, but I will for sure test both nimble mongoose and this guy. My first idea is something like 4 Delver of secrets, 4 nimble mongoose, [2-4] hexdrinker, [0-4] Tarmogoyf(12-14 total).

IF I'm willing to give a shot to either Hexdrinker and Nimble Mongoose, this is what I would try (as a starting point):






I like the idea of having Hexdrinker as a mana sink in the mid-late, where we shouldn't do things. Tarmogoyf is obviously another strong argument for the deck, but there are several reasons why we could go in a different direction (I'm not talking about budget issues, uh, I guess we already stated pro and cons of the green fatty). Mongoose becomes the only graveyard based spell in our 75 (and, to be honest, I'm finding it turning threshold on quite fast, I didn't expect that).

The alternative is to swap Mongoose for Tarmogoyf, and Thought Scour for Sleight of Hand. But this way we basically hit turn one threat every single game, and Control-based strategies become a joke.

I'm not sold on Hexdrinker yet. It definitely is a strong card in the right situation but against humans it'll get blown out by Reflector Mage. Roast can deal with it easily as well. It is just so mana hungry for an effect that doesn't impact imediately.

I'm tinkering with Crack the Earth as turn two play after deploying a threat (Goose or Delver) on turn one, we then can keep mana open for Spell Snare or Spell Pierce. The problem with Crack the Earth is, we are 2 for 1 ourselves. It would make Wrenn and Six more appealling in our list.

I'm sold on Hexdrinker. Is simply a good card on turn one that turns to very good in the mid-game. Delver of Secrets itself is weak to Reflector Mage, and it isn't a good reason for not playing it. Roast is almost non-existent, let's be serious here.

What I'm not sold on is Nimble Mongoose + Thought Scour. I may be trying the same configuration, with +1 Stomping Ground, +1 Remand, +2 Sleight of Hand, +3 Young Pyromancer. 2-2 split between Vapor Snag and Flame Slash.