I've always found this deck very intriguing and I'm surprised it seems very popular on here, but I have literally never played against it in hundreds of matches. Disrupting Shoal seems like it would be great right now too, I tried it a bit in UW and it was surprisingly good and opponents never expect it.
I've always found this deck very intriguing and I'm surprised it seems very popular on here, but I have literally never played against it in hundreds of matches. Disrupting Shoal seems like it would be great right now too, I tried it a bit in UW and it was surprisingly good and opponents never expect it.
Oh yeah. Shoal is where you wanna be right now. It's very very very good with keeping up and disrupting the linear format we live in right now.
I was playing against BG rock yesterday... T1: Fetch, Delver, Bauble, pass. He casts Fatal Push, I shoal, then crack Bauble to ensure a flying Scientist next turn. T2: Flip delver on another Shoal, Fetch and shock, Tarmogoyf, swing for 3, pass. He fetches and casts Bob which is Shoaled by pitching Simic Charm. T3: I draw Sleight of Hand and cast it looking for a Stubborn Denial, found it, bash for 7, pass. He tries to land LoTV, and it's met with the Denial and he just packs it up.
Needless to say, the Shoal allows us to wreck havoc on our opponents WHILE letting us keep our proactive gameplan. It's where you wanna be right now.
@Grindor11 Shoals and Baubles? Can I see your list?
Yeah man! Here you go! It's not RUG, but rather just UG. Still Monkey Grow been having lots of success with it, but it's by no means perfect. This is my list that I tweak and update. So if you save the link or whatever you'll always have my latest and greatest 75.
It's pretty straight-forward. The deck is still in its infancy, but I'm crushing lots of decks with it. The idea with staying UG was to max out on the Shoal's usage, because I believe it's the reason to play the deck.
I feel like it's close enough to what people are playing on here to be apart of the thread
I tried the Tempo strategy and somehow I still think that Delver is too weak for Modern. You can not make it flip like in Legacy and there are better Plays on turn 1.. for example playing Serum Visions or spell piercing/denialing an Expedition Map or Aether Vial or Thoughtseize or waiting if nothing happens casting Thought Scour end of turn..
maybe it's better to make them lose their turn 1 play and start playing the beaters like Tarmogoyf turn 2 and playing some Nimble Obstructionist.. I think this is better than playing a 1/1 and praying that it flips next turn..
I tried the Tempo strategy and somehow I still think that Delver is too weak for Modern. You can not make it flip like in Legacy and there are better Plays on turn 1.. for example playing Serum Visions or spell piercing/denialing an Expedition Map or Aether Vial or Thoughtseize or waiting if nothing happens casting Thought Scour end of turn..
maybe it's better to make them lose their turn 1 play and start playing the beaters like Tarmogoyf turn 2 and playing some Nimble Obstructionist.. I think this is better than playing a 1/1 and praying that it flips next turn..
You may do it, but then you're much weaker to tron and other combo deck. The other issue is the play pattern. While I love playing tempo, it's very difficult for me to adapt my play style to a control deck for example. Delver is the card that makes this particular type of play possible. And against some deck you can just hold it in your hand if needed. Shoal is another component that pushes towards a turn 1 play.
It's a matter of play style more than power. We all here know that we are playing a deck that's one or two steps away from being top at the moment. We are a couple of card away from being a tier-worth deck and that's not a small issue since other decks (even tiers) keep getting great cards at a much faster rate than us. We'd need general answer, but wizards is printing cards that rewards synergies and that's not very good for us. For this reason I'm keeping my finger crossed for Horizons since it may be the only way we can get what we need (11 days and we should start knowing more...).
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I would agree that Delver has it's issues and can be quite weak if it doesn't flip. But as far as my little experience with the deck has shown and the feed back I've gotten from other players is that it is a super cool deck and they have trouble playing against my deck because they don't know what to expect.
Further is soo much fun to play which surpasses its weaknesses for me. I rather loose a couple of games and have fun, then win at all cost but play the tier deck that every other dude at the store is familiar with.
Delver is certainly a confounding card in this deck. I've had plenty of games where I've had two delvers on the table but just continuously flipped lands and creatures the whole game. I've noticed, through viewing some games on youtube, that delver seems far more effective when running Mishra's Bauble, since we can check out our next card, stack the triggers at our upkeep if necessary, and crack a fetch to remove any unwanted card from the top.
On the other hand, Delver, when it does flip, far surpasses any other turn 1 play this deck can make, and there have been plenty of games where I've flipped a Delver turn 2 and have just played protect the queen the rest of the game, getting in with one delver on the table.
I gotta say, I really like the idea of there only being 6 lands that actually tap for mana in your deck.
Yeah it's awesome. Not playing 3cmc cards and snap casters can really bring down the curve in your list. Makes me VERY aggressive. Been thinking about going to 5 here recently tbh.
maybe it's better to make them lose their turn 1 play and start playing the beaters like Tarmogoyf turn 2 and playing some Nimble Obstructionist.. I think this is better than playing a 1/1 and praying that it flips next turn..
I mean this is the LITERAL point of adopting disrupting shoal now. It's so you can do these things and still counter their stuff that matters.
I've noticed, through viewing some games on youtube, that delver seems far more effective when running Mishra's Bauble, since we can check out our next card, stack the triggers at our upkeep if necessary, and crack a fetch to remove any unwanted card from the top.
This is a fact. You can even do the math sure, you're including artifacts that don't flip delver (bauble), but you're checking two cards instead of one. So you gain lots percentages with the bauble, and lose probably single percentages by playing it. When bauble and delver are on the field together, the flip percentages goes up to about 60% depending on your configuration.
Not exactly brainstorm territory, but it's a step.
EDIT: Which is why I think it's wise to max out on Goyfs and Mandrills with this plan. Get's Goyf huge, Feeds delve, and increases delver flips; ALL WHILE giving you card filtering in your gameplay. It's x4 in my list for a big reason.
I played about ten games with 2 copies of Saheeli main and 2 Domri in the board and I am not impressed. One of the games was against Abzan midrange, and while Saheeli was pretty good there, it wasn't enough to turn the matchup around. And I found the 3 cmc spells clunking in my hand too often. So I'm over the planeswalker experiment for now.
Return to Nature, on the other hand, has been awesome. Because of both the incidental grave hate there and the retreat of Phoenix and Dredge, I no longer feel I need 2-3 dedicated pieces of grave hate. In fact, online. I'm trying out none, save for the third mode of Return. It opens up so much room to play a Ceremonious Rejection, an Abrade, another haymaker, a Hurkyl's Recall, whatever you feel like. I've been loving having a 15 card sideboard again after months of 13 cards plus Surgicals.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
I haven't.played with them yet. I think saheeli in the main is incorrect. It's option to present a go wide strategy if needed.
This is probably right. Still, I'm not certain it's a fit for the sideboard, either, because it's a piece that needs other pieces to do anything. I know that I can topdeck a Huntmaster or Hazoret, and if I get to untap with it, I'm hugely favored. With Saheeli or Domri, they do nothing coming down, and then when you do find a spell or a creature, is it really that big of a deal? With Saheeli, great, you get a 1/1. It definitely buys time, but Huntmaster dominates the board in a similar stall. So too with Hazoret, which can pretty easily win the game the turn you cast it against control.
I'm thinking about trying out a 1-of Narset, Parter of Veils for the blue matchups. Ever since Teferi, Hero of Dominaria was printed, I feel the control matchups have gotten way, way harder. If you can keep them off of Teferi, it's not so bad. But that card just generates all the value in the world. Narset could be okay there, making their Jace 0s, Teferi +1s, Opts / Serum Visions, and Cryptic Commands awkward. And the pseudo-Azcanta activation could be big to dig for a Bolt to kill a walker, a counter to stock up for the counter wars that always come up in this matchup, or a cantrip to dig for a threat.
Phoenix is 50/50. The Phoenix draws are easier to beat than the Thing draws. I find the most important cards in this matchup are Disrupting Shoal and Simic Charm. Shoal pitches a 1 drop to counter Looting, which is their key spell, and a 2 drop to counter Thing if you haven't got a way to handle it in hand. That said, the deck is very good and ours sort of isn't, so I don't think it's favored, but it's not awful, either.
Titan . . . Scapeshift Titan or Amulet Titan? Scapeshift Titan is really straightforward and very good, I think. Counter their ramp and kill them before they can cast the Titan. Amulet is really confusing to play against, but I think the matchup is one of our best. Bojuka Bog sometimes goofs with our Goyfs, so I always prioritize getting out Mandrills first here. If you can counter the Amulet, you're in good shape. They have some draws that just don't lose, but their average draw loses to ours. And postboard, forget about it. Blood Moon, an extra counter or two, and you're great.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
The matchup against Amulet is so good that I'm fine with them getting a new card, especially something that dies to Stubborn Denial. Creatures are this deck's real problem.
At least, that's my perspective. You actually play Amulet, according to your profile, so what do you think?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Would 2 Narset, Parter of Veils and 2 Day's Undoing be playable in our deck? Maybe as a sideboard tech against grindy match ups? Too slow/clunky? In some configurations those cards can be playable even without the other maybe. I may give them a try.
What do you think?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Oh yeah. Shoal is where you wanna be right now. It's very very very good with keeping up and disrupting the linear format we live in right now.
I was playing against BG rock yesterday... T1: Fetch, Delver, Bauble, pass. He casts Fatal Push, I shoal, then crack Bauble to ensure a flying Scientist next turn. T2: Flip delver on another Shoal, Fetch and shock, Tarmogoyf, swing for 3, pass. He fetches and casts Bob which is Shoaled by pitching Simic Charm. T3: I draw Sleight of Hand and cast it looking for a Stubborn Denial, found it, bash for 7, pass. He tries to land LoTV, and it's met with the Denial and he just packs it up.
Needless to say, the Shoal allows us to wreck havoc on our opponents WHILE letting us keep our proactive gameplan. It's where you wanna be right now.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Yeah man! Here you go! It's not RUG, but rather just UG. Still Monkey Grow been having lots of success with it, but it's by no means perfect. This is my list that I tweak and update. So if you save the link or whatever you'll always have my latest and greatest 75.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1289947#paper
and to display it on here...
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Vapor Snag
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Simic Charm
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Breeding Pool
3 Island
4 Prey Upon
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Dismember
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Commandeer
I feel like it's close enough to what people are playing on here to be apart of the thread
maybe it's better to make them lose their turn 1 play and start playing the beaters like Tarmogoyf turn 2 and playing some Nimble Obstructionist.. I think this is better than playing a 1/1 and praying that it flips next turn..
You may do it, but then you're much weaker to tron and other combo deck. The other issue is the play pattern. While I love playing tempo, it's very difficult for me to adapt my play style to a control deck for example. Delver is the card that makes this particular type of play possible. And against some deck you can just hold it in your hand if needed. Shoal is another component that pushes towards a turn 1 play.
It's a matter of play style more than power. We all here know that we are playing a deck that's one or two steps away from being top at the moment. We are a couple of card away from being a tier-worth deck and that's not a small issue since other decks (even tiers) keep getting great cards at a much faster rate than us. We'd need general answer, but wizards is printing cards that rewards synergies and that's not very good for us. For this reason I'm keeping my finger crossed for Horizons since it may be the only way we can get what we need (11 days and we should start knowing more...).
Modern:
Further is soo much fun to play which surpasses its weaknesses for me. I rather loose a couple of games and have fun, then win at all cost but play the tier deck that every other dude at the store is familiar with.
On the other hand, Delver, when it does flip, far surpasses any other turn 1 play this deck can make, and there have been plenty of games where I've flipped a Delver turn 2 and have just played protect the queen the rest of the game, getting in with one delver on the table.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Yeah it's awesome. Not playing 3cmc cards and snap casters can really bring down the curve in your list. Makes me VERY aggressive. Been thinking about going to 5 here recently tbh.
I mean this is the LITERAL point of adopting disrupting shoal now. It's so you can do these things and still counter their stuff that matters.
This is a fact. You can even do the math sure, you're including artifacts that don't flip delver (bauble), but you're checking two cards instead of one. So you gain lots percentages with the bauble, and lose probably single percentages by playing it. When bauble and delver are on the field together, the flip percentages goes up to about 60% depending on your configuration.
Not exactly brainstorm territory, but it's a step.
EDIT: Which is why I think it's wise to max out on Goyfs and Mandrills with this plan. Get's Goyf huge, Feeds delve, and increases delver flips; ALL WHILE giving you card filtering in your gameplay. It's x4 in my list for a big reason.
Return to Nature, on the other hand, has been awesome. Because of both the incidental grave hate there and the retreat of Phoenix and Dredge, I no longer feel I need 2-3 dedicated pieces of grave hate. In fact, online. I'm trying out none, save for the third mode of Return. It opens up so much room to play a Ceremonious Rejection, an Abrade, another haymaker, a Hurkyl's Recall, whatever you feel like. I've been loving having a 15 card sideboard again after months of 13 cards plus Surgicals.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
This is probably right. Still, I'm not certain it's a fit for the sideboard, either, because it's a piece that needs other pieces to do anything. I know that I can topdeck a Huntmaster or Hazoret, and if I get to untap with it, I'm hugely favored. With Saheeli or Domri, they do nothing coming down, and then when you do find a spell or a creature, is it really that big of a deal? With Saheeli, great, you get a 1/1. It definitely buys time, but Huntmaster dominates the board in a similar stall. So too with Hazoret, which can pretty easily win the game the turn you cast it against control.
I'm thinking about trying out a 1-of Narset, Parter of Veils for the blue matchups. Ever since Teferi, Hero of Dominaria was printed, I feel the control matchups have gotten way, way harder. If you can keep them off of Teferi, it's not so bad. But that card just generates all the value in the world. Narset could be okay there, making their Jace 0s, Teferi +1s, Opts / Serum Visions, and Cryptic Commands awkward. And the pseudo-Azcanta activation could be big to dig for a Bolt to kill a walker, a counter to stock up for the counter wars that always come up in this matchup, or a cantrip to dig for a threat.
Phoenix is 50/50. The Phoenix draws are easier to beat than the Thing draws. I find the most important cards in this matchup are Disrupting Shoal and Simic Charm. Shoal pitches a 1 drop to counter Looting, which is their key spell, and a 2 drop to counter Thing if you haven't got a way to handle it in hand. That said, the deck is very good and ours sort of isn't, so I don't think it's favored, but it's not awful, either.
Titan . . . Scapeshift Titan or Amulet Titan? Scapeshift Titan is really straightforward and very good, I think. Counter their ramp and kill them before they can cast the Titan. Amulet is really confusing to play against, but I think the matchup is one of our best. Bojuka Bog sometimes goofs with our Goyfs, so I always prioritize getting out Mandrills first here. If you can counter the Amulet, you're in good shape. They have some draws that just don't lose, but their average draw loses to ours. And postboard, forget about it. Blood Moon, an extra counter or two, and you're great.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
At least, that's my perspective. You actually play Amulet, according to your profile, so what do you think?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
What do you think?
Modern:
I assumed Remand was the go-to spell in any tempo/protect the queen oriented deck?
What happened for Remand to become out of favour?