I played with one Traverse during my first few FNM‘s with RUG. A play set feels like to much to me, since they need to be turned on by delirium first to be more than a basic land tutor.
The one of won me a game though by tutoring Thrun, the Last Troll against Esper Control.
I only have experience using it with a snapcaster in the deck. Which was the primary target to bolt snap bolt ftw. Your deck might want more but id have a tiny concern with graveyard hate turning off delirium and then you have dead cards.
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
The grave hate against this deck is a real concern. My threats SUCK with a RIP on board lol. Most people say after playing against my deck that they wouldn't board a card like that in, but I have played people who do bring it in and it gets me more than I'd like to admit.
I see a lot of talk here about the recent rise in graveyard hate. Obviously that hate is intended for Dredge and Phoenix, and it's unfortunate that our Little Deck That Could also gets hurt by it. Would this be a cause to include a card like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and a twofer in the main deck? She presents an alternate win condition through swarm, doesn't need the graveyard. If not Saheeli, then what? I believe it would be prudent to run some some of alternate plan in the maindeck, but maybe our alternate plan is just Snapcaster/Delver beats?
@CatParty I like where your head is at! But isn't Young Pyromancer just better than the new walker? Sure it dies easier than this thing, but at least it can turn sideways for damage itself. I think Saheeli, Sublime Artificer will probably see play in conjunction with the little PZ if at all.
Yea, I wouldn't play more than two Traverse the Ulvenwald. I don't want to see more than one in my opening hand.
My current meta tech would be Gnarlwood Dryad as a one or two of. I haven't played them yet and it'll be atleast two weeks until I can try them out localy (gotta finish my bachelor thesis ) but I like them as a cheap creature with deathtouch and a relevant creature type against Thing in the Ice. It trades well with fatties and can become a reasonable clock once the graveyard is full.
@CatParty I like where your head is at! But isn't Young Pyromancer just better than the new walker? Sure it dies easier than this thing, but at least it can turn sideways for damage itself. I think Saheeli, Sublime Artificer will probably see play in conjunction with the little PZ if at all.
1. Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is a planeswalker, so she feeds Tarmogoyf.
2. She is blue, so she can be tossed to Disrupting Shoal, and having a 3cmc spell to toss can come in handy.
3. Since she is a planeswalker she can't be removed from the board nearly as easily as Young Pyromancer.
4. She has a second ability that can clone our beat sticks.
Obviously one is not strictly better than the other, and they each have their benefits, but I think Saheeli might be more versatile in our deck than Peezy.
Like my last one, I went 2-0 and split the finals (with the same opponent). We played out those games because he was on a brew and I just found a new terrible matchup for us.
Round 1 I beat Grixis Delver 2-1. Good player who's always on some Steam Vents deck. He played UR Wizards when Humans and Spirits were on the loose, played Grixis Shadow for a while, but just got tired of the life total management and went back to 2016-era Grixis Delver. He beat me game 1, but I straight out-tempoed him G2, and then G3 Hazoret came in and cleaned up a mess.
Round 2 I beat UR Phoenix 2-1. G1 I found my 4th land, cast two Goyfs with opponent at 11. I had a flipped Delver on the board. Pass, opponent goes to cast Pyromancer's Ascension, I Shoal pitching Leak, he casts Thing and says go. Goyfs are 6-7s at this point, and I was able to bounce his Thing with Charm for the win. G2 was tough. I kept a 6 that beat the Phoenix plan with Mandrills, a cantrip, Surgical, Snapcaster, and 2 fetches. So he goes T2 Thing, and I just can't beat it. G3 was back to Shoaling a Thing after I tapped out for Goyf into counter everything relevant.
Round 3 I drew with the guy I've been drawing with lately. He's always on some Thoughtseize deck, usually Rock or Jund. Today he was on a brew: Esper Superfriends. Here are the hits: main deck 2 Rest in Peace, the new Kaya, Liliana of the Veil, a pair of Jace, and a pair of Teferi. Back it up with discard, Logic Knot, and Supreme Verdict, and we've got a tough matchup. We played a bunch of games, and I went 1-4 in them. The only game I won was me countering his discard into T3 Blood Moon. Kaya absolutely wrecks this deck. Even when he didn't have Rest in Peace out, Kaya and Liliana made it hard to keep creatures on the board, and then if I did, there comes Verdict, laughing at my Stubborn Denials. This is a rough matchup that I think is going to be less a matter of figuring out sideboard cards to beat them, and more about play patterns. But with Zach Allen's success at the last big SCG with Esper, and Kaya making a ruckus in various decks, plus people like us who are devoted to a heretofore underpowered color combo . . . I think some form of Esper might be here to stay.
All in all, a good night, and technically a 2-0-1. But I know how that last set of games really went, and it's yet another thing to worry about for us.
For those of you who've been playing this deck a long time: how did you do back in the old days against Jeskai control? How have your control matchups changed over the years? Seems like Supreme Verdict is just a huge problem for us, and although I generally feel good about the control matchups, I'm not sure I've ever beaten a resolved, non-desperation Teferi.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
For those of you who've been playing this deck a long time: how did you do back in the old days against Jeskai control? How have your control matchups changed over the years? Seems like Supreme Verdict is just a huge problem for us, and although I generally feel good about the control matchups, I'm not sure I've ever beaten a resolved, non-desperation Teferi.
I haven't been playing while. So I guess you can take my input with a grain of salt the reason why Supreme Verdict is a tough card for us is because we can't interact with it. We can't say 'no'. Which seems kinda like a "DUH GRINDOR EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" type of thing, but it really puts a point on how we engineer our deck.
Delver decks specifically lean on ways to interact with the opponents spells on the stack, rather than what's on the board. You may say, "Teferi is tough to beat", but isn't everything that has impact on the board that we can't bounce/bolt tough to beat? Liliana of the Veil, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Thoughtknot Seer, Primeval Titan, Arcbound Ravager, Search for Azcanta are all cards that fall under this category if they slip through our slew of countermagic.
It's a fundamental issue of our deck, if we can't counter it or bolt it before it does something, our deck suddenly sucks and falls behind.
In situations like this, I'm finding that the key is to play in a way that puts YOU or THEM dead 8 ways to Sunday. That means forgoing lots of reactive play styles against these things. How do I most often beat Control? I beat the crap outta them with tall goyfs and monkeys and flying scientists. Same with affinity, same with Amulet, same with Eldrazi. Strikingly, our linear plan is almost better than theirs. Then our reactive plan can kick in when needed. Especially if you're on Shoals.
Control matchups seemed pretty good back when I was exclusively on RUG Delver, but that was when we had Gitaxian Probe (man, do I miss that card). That made it easy to line up your counterspells perfectly to answer their removal and threats. Supreme Verdict was a pain, but often times, just sequencing your threats correctly could help keep a Verdict from wrecking you.
Basically, you stuck a threat by Turn 1 or 2, then used counter magic to muck up any plays that would let them stabilize or neutralize your board presence. If they hit Cryptic Command range and you don't have interaction for it, that's when the game can turn ugly pretty quickly. Basically, you needed have that clutch Stubborn Denial/Mana Leak to hit their 4/5 mana way of turning the tables and be close to killing them so you could finish the game up in a turn or 2. Post board, Blood Moon was a house against most Control decks.
Control has more toys now. Teferi and Search for Azcanta can be pretty rough when those are both online. It's probably a tougher matchup than it used to be, since RUG hasn't gotten much to work with.
I'm glad this thread is still so active. I've been on GDS, UR Moon, and Phoenix lately, but I think I'm going to sleeve RUG up for old time's sake. Nothing feels as quite as good as jamming a Hooting Mandrills on turn 2!
I'm glad this thread is still so active. I've been on GDS, UR Moon, and Phoenix lately, but I think I'm going to sleeve RUG up for old time's sake. Nothing feels as quite as good as jamming a Hooting Mandrills on turn 2!
YESSSS do it LeoTzu! This deck is sweet right now. Even tho I'm on UG and not RUG, I love how easy a T2 Mandrills with Stubborn Denial just shuts out half the format. We also need more players because we're all not exactly centralized on lists once we figure out how to tackle the other decks, we can all get a better understanding of what's good and what's not.
Eventually I'll even make the shift over to RUG, but I want to explore this weird pile of cards before moving away from it.
I keep thinking about the new Saheeli as an engine out of the board. I keep asking: is it fast enough?
One thing I liked about Huntmaster is that there is immediately value, and then it's easy to flip back and forth. If you can protect it, you win. There is inevitability built in.
So too with Hazoret: if you can swing twice with it and activate it, you win. I've found the cards in hand clause occasionally awkward with Hazoret, but it hits like a truck. It closes games quickly.
I'm not sure Saheeli does the same. It's not really a clock in itself, and isn't a self-contained win condition like Chandra, Huntmaster, Hazoret, etc. The 1/1s she makes have no evasion. Yes, you get a sweet chance of copying a big Goyf or Ape, but part of the reason I bring in extra threats is that the dodge grave hate. This makes 1/1s. Is that enough in the grindy matchups?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Delver decks specifically lean on ways to interact with the opponents spells on the stack, rather than what's on the board. You may say, "Teferi is tough to beat", but isn't everything that has impact on the board that we can't bounce/bolt tough to beat? Liliana of the Veil, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Thoughtknot Seer, Primeval Titan, Arcbound Ravager, Search for Azcanta are all cards that fall under this category if they slip through our slew of countermagic.
It's a fundamental issue of our deck, if we can't counter it or bolt it before it does something, our deck suddenly sucks and falls behind.
That's particularly true. And that's why I'm pleading for somenthing like counterspell (or at least memory lapse) in horizon. Keep finger crossed.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
For those of you who've been playing this deck a long time: how did you do back in the old days against Jeskai control? How have your control matchups changed over the years? Seems like Supreme Verdict is just a huge problem for us, and although I generally feel good about the control matchups, I'm not sure I've ever beaten a resolved, non-desperation Teferi.
I haven't been playing while. So I guess you can take my input with a grain of salt the reason why Supreme Verdict is a tough card for us is because we can't interact with it. We can't say 'no'. Which seems kinda like a "DUH GRINDOR EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" type of thing, but it really puts a point on how we engineer our deck.
Delver decks specifically lean on ways to interact with the opponents spells on the stack, rather than what's on the board. You may say, "Teferi is tough to beat", but isn't everything that has impact on the board that we can't bounce/bolt tough to beat? Liliana of the Veil, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Thoughtknot Seer, Primeval Titan, Arcbound Ravager, Search for Azcanta are all cards that fall under this category if they slip through our slew of countermagic.
It's a fundamental issue of our deck, if we can't counter it or bolt it before it does something, our deck suddenly sucks and falls behind.
Has there ever been a discussion of Unsubstantiate in this thread? I don't think it's worth including atm, but if Esper Control takes off, or Control just makes a meta comeback in general, it's neat piece of tech that lets us "counter," or "bounce" really, Supreme Verdict, while also having the modal option of bouncing a creature. I've seen people run Remand in our deck for the tempo, and Unsubstantiate is similar, lacks card draw, but also has a second useful ability.
Has there ever been a discussion of Unsubstantiate in this thread? I don't think it's worth including atm, but if Esper Control takes off, or Control just makes a meta comeback in general, it's neat piece of tech that lets us "counter," or "bounce" really, Supreme Verdict, while also having the modal option of bouncing a creature. I've seen people run Remand in our deck for the tempo, and Unsubstantiate is similar, lacks card draw, but also has a second useful ability.
I mean... it has the same issue as remand. It doesn't solve the problem. It's not terrible, but not great either. Would be worth some playtesting though to confirm
concerns of mine:
- 2 Mandrills for stubborn Denial
- Sorcery count
- Lands. Idk what the hell to do haha.
Thoughts as a rough draft?
Drop sized charm and a vapor snag. Add 2 more mandrills
Our best sorcerys are sleight of hand and traverse.
Your shock lands can interchange depending on your sideboard requirements
3 islands
1 forest
2 steam vents 1 breeding pool (if your side board has a lot of red)
1 stomping ground
1 wooded foothills
4 Tarns
4 mistys
You can drop baubles as needed to make room.
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
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The one of won me a game though by tutoring Thrun, the Last Troll against Esper Control.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Modern:
My current meta tech would be Gnarlwood Dryad as a one or two of. I haven't played them yet and it'll be atleast two weeks until I can try them out localy (gotta finish my bachelor thesis ) but I like them as a cheap creature with deathtouch and a relevant creature type against Thing in the Ice. It trades well with fatties and can become a reasonable clock once the graveyard is full.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
1. Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is a planeswalker, so she feeds Tarmogoyf.
2. She is blue, so she can be tossed to Disrupting Shoal, and having a 3cmc spell to toss can come in handy.
3. Since she is a planeswalker she can't be removed from the board nearly as easily as Young Pyromancer.
4. She has a second ability that can clone our beat sticks.
Obviously one is not strictly better than the other, and they each have their benefits, but I think Saheeli might be more versatile in our deck than Peezy.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
4x Disrupting Shoal
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Simic Charm
1x Spell Pierce
3x Stubborn Denial
1x Tarfire
4x Thought Scour
Sorcery (8)
1x Chart a Course
1x Flame Slash
4x Serum Visions
2x Sleight of Hand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
3x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
3x Wooded Foothills
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Hooting Mandrills
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Beacon Bolt
3x Blood Moon
1x Delay
2x Destructive Revelry
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Spell Snare
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
Like my last one, I went 2-0 and split the finals (with the same opponent). We played out those games because he was on a brew and I just found a new terrible matchup for us.
Round 1 I beat Grixis Delver 2-1. Good player who's always on some Steam Vents deck. He played UR Wizards when Humans and Spirits were on the loose, played Grixis Shadow for a while, but just got tired of the life total management and went back to 2016-era Grixis Delver. He beat me game 1, but I straight out-tempoed him G2, and then G3 Hazoret came in and cleaned up a mess.
Round 2 I beat UR Phoenix 2-1. G1 I found my 4th land, cast two Goyfs with opponent at 11. I had a flipped Delver on the board. Pass, opponent goes to cast Pyromancer's Ascension, I Shoal pitching Leak, he casts Thing and says go. Goyfs are 6-7s at this point, and I was able to bounce his Thing with Charm for the win. G2 was tough. I kept a 6 that beat the Phoenix plan with Mandrills, a cantrip, Surgical, Snapcaster, and 2 fetches. So he goes T2 Thing, and I just can't beat it. G3 was back to Shoaling a Thing after I tapped out for Goyf into counter everything relevant.
Round 3 I drew with the guy I've been drawing with lately. He's always on some Thoughtseize deck, usually Rock or Jund. Today he was on a brew: Esper Superfriends. Here are the hits: main deck 2 Rest in Peace, the new Kaya, Liliana of the Veil, a pair of Jace, and a pair of Teferi. Back it up with discard, Logic Knot, and Supreme Verdict, and we've got a tough matchup. We played a bunch of games, and I went 1-4 in them. The only game I won was me countering his discard into T3 Blood Moon. Kaya absolutely wrecks this deck. Even when he didn't have Rest in Peace out, Kaya and Liliana made it hard to keep creatures on the board, and then if I did, there comes Verdict, laughing at my Stubborn Denials. This is a rough matchup that I think is going to be less a matter of figuring out sideboard cards to beat them, and more about play patterns. But with Zach Allen's success at the last big SCG with Esper, and Kaya making a ruckus in various decks, plus people like us who are devoted to a heretofore underpowered color combo . . . I think some form of Esper might be here to stay.
All in all, a good night, and technically a 2-0-1. But I know how that last set of games really went, and it's yet another thing to worry about for us.
For those of you who've been playing this deck a long time: how did you do back in the old days against Jeskai control? How have your control matchups changed over the years? Seems like Supreme Verdict is just a huge problem for us, and although I generally feel good about the control matchups, I'm not sure I've ever beaten a resolved, non-desperation Teferi.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I haven't been playing while. So I guess you can take my input with a grain of salt the reason why Supreme Verdict is a tough card for us is because we can't interact with it. We can't say 'no'. Which seems kinda like a "DUH GRINDOR EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" type of thing, but it really puts a point on how we engineer our deck.
Delver decks specifically lean on ways to interact with the opponents spells on the stack, rather than what's on the board. You may say, "Teferi is tough to beat", but isn't everything that has impact on the board that we can't bounce/bolt tough to beat? Liliana of the Veil, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Thoughtknot Seer, Primeval Titan, Arcbound Ravager, Search for Azcanta are all cards that fall under this category if they slip through our slew of countermagic.
It's a fundamental issue of our deck, if we can't counter it or bolt it before it does something, our deck suddenly sucks and falls behind.
In situations like this, I'm finding that the key is to play in a way that puts YOU or THEM dead 8 ways to Sunday. That means forgoing lots of reactive play styles against these things. How do I most often beat Control? I beat the crap outta them with tall goyfs and monkeys and flying scientists. Same with affinity, same with Amulet, same with Eldrazi. Strikingly, our linear plan is almost better than theirs. Then our reactive plan can kick in when needed. Especially if you're on Shoals.
Basically, you stuck a threat by Turn 1 or 2, then used counter magic to muck up any plays that would let them stabilize or neutralize your board presence. If they hit Cryptic Command range and you don't have interaction for it, that's when the game can turn ugly pretty quickly. Basically, you needed have that clutch Stubborn Denial/Mana Leak to hit their 4/5 mana way of turning the tables and be close to killing them so you could finish the game up in a turn or 2. Post board, Blood Moon was a house against most Control decks.
Control has more toys now. Teferi and Search for Azcanta can be pretty rough when those are both online. It's probably a tougher matchup than it used to be, since RUG hasn't gotten much to work with.
I'm glad this thread is still so active. I've been on GDS, UR Moon, and Phoenix lately, but I think I'm going to sleeve RUG up for old time's sake. Nothing feels as quite as good as jamming a Hooting Mandrills on turn 2!
YESSSS do it LeoTzu! This deck is sweet right now. Even tho I'm on UG and not RUG, I love how easy a T2 Mandrills with Stubborn Denial just shuts out half the format. We also need more players because we're all not exactly centralized on lists once we figure out how to tackle the other decks, we can all get a better understanding of what's good and what's not.
Eventually I'll even make the shift over to RUG, but I want to explore this weird pile of cards before moving away from it.
One thing I liked about Huntmaster is that there is immediately value, and then it's easy to flip back and forth. If you can protect it, you win. There is inevitability built in.
So too with Hazoret: if you can swing twice with it and activate it, you win. I've found the cards in hand clause occasionally awkward with Hazoret, but it hits like a truck. It closes games quickly.
I'm not sure Saheeli does the same. It's not really a clock in itself, and isn't a self-contained win condition like Chandra, Huntmaster, Hazoret, etc. The 1/1s she makes have no evasion. Yes, you get a sweet chance of copying a big Goyf or Ape, but part of the reason I bring in extra threats is that the dodge grave hate. This makes 1/1s. Is that enough in the grindy matchups?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
That's particularly true. And that's why I'm pleading for somenthing like counterspell (or at least memory lapse) in horizon. Keep finger crossed.
Modern:
Has there ever been a discussion of Unsubstantiate in this thread? I don't think it's worth including atm, but if Esper Control takes off, or Control just makes a meta comeback in general, it's neat piece of tech that lets us "counter," or "bounce" really, Supreme Verdict, while also having the modal option of bouncing a creature. I've seen people run Remand in our deck for the tempo, and Unsubstantiate is similar, lacks card draw, but also has a second useful ability.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
I mean... it has the same issue as remand. It doesn't solve the problem. It's not terrible, but not great either. Would be worth some playtesting though to confirm
If I were to go RUG, I'd try and adapt my current list into the RUG shell. It will probably looks something like this for the main 60. Thoughts?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1793560#paper
concerns of mine:
- 2 Mandrills for stubborn Denial
- Sorcery count
- Lands. Idk what the hell to do haha.
Thoughts as a rough draft?
Drop sized charm and a vapor snag. Add 2 more mandrills
Our best sorcerys are sleight of hand and traverse.
Your shock lands can interchange depending on your sideboard requirements
3 islands
1 forest
2 steam vents 1 breeding pool (if your side board has a lot of red)
1 stomping ground
1 wooded foothills
4 Tarns
4 mistys
You can drop baubles as needed to make room.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff