MTG Salvation

I'm waiting on a surveil cantrip for 1 that might replace Serum Visions, or at least Thought Scour, for us. I haven't played the deck in a few weeks, but reworked it last night in anticipation of there being something new for us with the new set. We need another 2 drop threat that doesn't rely on the yard, and I don't think Peasy is it. A good cantrip and such a creature would be the dream.

Quote from MikePemulis »

I'm waiting on a surveil cantrip for 1 that might replace Serum Visions, or at least Thought Scour, for us. I haven't played the deck in a few weeks, but reworked it last night in anticipation of there being something new for us with the new set. We need another 2 drop threat that doesn't rely on the yard, and I don't think Peasy is it. A good cantrip and such a creature would be the dream.

I agree with this. I think the white splash can work for another one-drop, but that's in large part thanks to Path to Exile clearing the ground for it. A bigger beater doesn't care so much about enemy creatures, but without using the 'yard, I doubt we'll get much that works. We're basically asking Wizards to print another Tarmogoyf. Crackling Drake's design is promising, but obviously that card is too expensive for us. The kill spell with the same clause might be a fine one-of in the sideboard; I like the idea of hard-killing anything two times vs. midrange.

Quote from MikePemulis »

I'm waiting on a surveil cantrip for 1 that might replace Serum Visions, or at least Thought Scour, for us.

Surveil is just a better scry. I don't think we'll see a U mana cantrip of any sort since Opt is already in standard and I don't think they'll power up serum visions. The only chance at one is a sorcery cantrip that draws one then surveil 1, but I don't think they'll do it.

Quote from ashtonkutcher »

The kill spell with the same clause might be a fine one-of in the sideboard; I like the idea of hard-killing anything two times vs. midrange.

That could be a nice addition.

EDIT: Here's the Surveil draw card : Discovery // Dispersal (Until it's up: it's a 1U/B surveil preordain attached to a pseudo 5 mana recoil)

EDIT2: What about Risk Factor? Browbeat and other "the opponent choose" cards are pretty always awful, but I really can't judge this. It is instant speed (letting you use the possibly drawn card immediately) and has jump start. I always like the burn plan against midrange/control (I'd like to try Exquisite Firecraft in side against UW); could this help there? 3 mana is a lot but still castable at instant speed. Thoughts?

Isn't vendilion clique just far better? The point of toughness is irrelevant, while the ability is much stronger since it can hit combo as well. I can see a clique in side for UW and combo match up, not this one.

Quote from Nekat »

The toughness is relevant in a format where Lingering Souls, Mausoleum Wanderer and Supreme Phantom exist. I think the deck is suitable enough to deal with combo in most regards but I'm thinking the body is good as a tempo play to transform those awkward hands of Tarmogoyf and Mana Leak on T3 and turn them into a definite hold up Mana Leak or Whisper Agent turn. I'm thinking like 3 copies and cut 1-2 of Tarmogoyf and maybe a pyromancer. Once again, this is all speculation and I'll have to test it. I'm also thinking of running a couple Mission Briefing's for some more end of turn plays. It can kind of act like an instant speed looting/visions with hopefully a bolt attached to it at later parts of the game. It would have been great to see a 1CMC instant surveil 2 but I digress.

Not close to as relevant as flying.

@Nekat
Clique and aberrations (since you compared the two) both fly while agent does not, and that's already a big enough difference. Add to what I already said and I think it becomes difficult to find a spot for it. I don't know why, but at first I thought it had flying too, then I realized...
About briefing: the difference between it and snapcaster is the same between eternal witness and recollect (as said by Wescoe).
If you want a budget option you may try it (even if I still don't like it). Otherwise snap is the way.

Quote from metalcut »

-This may be fringe, but something I feel while playing the classic Monkey Grow deck is that the mana we get from getting something PtEd early is often irrelevant. It felt super great to curve T2 Monkey --> Opp Paths Monkey --> T3 Drake. I'm looking at Assassin's Trophy as I think about this.

I built my own Drake deck around this concept, but have to disagree about not being able to take advantage of the extra mana in more classical Monkey Grow lists. On Drake in Temur, I found that green really doesn't offer the kind of support that card demands (mostly ways to disrupt enemy board presence). Push is ideal in this role, especially combined with targeted discard. And since drake/delve guys hit so hard, I'm not sure Delver does much for the strategy; better to attack linear combo decks with dedicated hate out of the side IMO. In any case, good luck in testing!

Super curious to hear your results, and I think you're braver than most of the rest of us. You lost me when you said you cut basic Forest, and I'm not planning on ever casting a UURR 4-drop in this deck, but I'm also not very adventurous.

That time again. Anyone other than me have Preordain sleeved up and ready to go?

Until then, I'll be playing Eldrazi Temples.

It would be great for us.
Alas I can't see an unban that can fit into a tier 1.
That said the most probable time for an unban is after pro tour.

How did your lists look if we get preodain?
Do we just straight across replace serum visions? Do we drop faithless looting?

I'd replace looting (at least some). Serum would still be the next best option after preordain if not the best of all.
Serum is not far from preordain as power level. They're indeed pretty close imho.
Obviously only test could give us the best configuration.

Hello everyone!

So I just discovered this thread the other day while searching for shells for a deck I am trying to build. I was surprised to see all the overlap in what I was missing and what a lot of these decks run.

I realize that it's not a traditional Temur Delver deck in any regard, but so far it's been the most solid shell of any of the options I have tested out. If you have any comments or criticisms I would greatly appreciate it.

Here it is!


As you can see, I'm building around Liquimetal Coating. It's been one of my favorite cards since I first saw it, and I just love some of the cool options it opens up. Paying 2 or less to kill a planeswalker, destroy land, or virtually anything else that doesn't have Indestructible or Hexproof. It even pops Phantasmal Image for free. It's also another card type for Goyf.

Ancient Grudge is a fantastic removal card that a lot of decks run sideboard, but I run them mainboard because of how strong of permanent removal it turns into. Even without Liquimetal Coating or drawing multiple copies it kills multiple Vials, does work against Wurmcoil Engine and its tokens, is hilarious against Affinity, and can be multiple triggers for Thing in the Ice. Could add Abrade to the sideboard to hedge against creature decks.

March of the Machines adds a bit of inevitability to the combo, where tapping Liquimetal Coating each turn to immediately kill any land can effectively stall their boardstate and start to send it backwards. This combo also allows you to turn your own stuff into attackers, like Saheeli or the March itself.

Saheeli Rai, while not vital to the mainboard, can help close out the game, or pile on the removal. It can copy a flipped Titi, a Goyf, Snapcaster, Vendilion, or even a Liquimetal Coating to remove 2+ permanents a turn. I was surprised to see Chaughey running one in a variation of his deck at some point, and it made me feel like I was on the right track (at least for my deck)

The goal for the MB is to put down some early pressure with Delver, Goyf (new addition thanks to this thread), Titi, all of which have to be answered in some way or another, and they also do a great job of protecting me, which is where my first dozen builds were really lacking.

Blood Moon adds that last bit of control the deck needed that is hard for many opponent's deck to work their way out from under by itself, much less with land destruction thrown in too. After looking at a lot of your lists I think this is better for the sideboard, but I just can't bring myself to do it yet.

Sideboard has the two Saheeli infinite combos. This is a potential T3 win, and along with the rest of the deck is fairly resilient. I am not set on including this combo in the sideboard, just the thought of having a transformative sideboard when the opponent was most likely boarding in creature hate was hilarious to me.

• Magus of the Moon over a third Blood Moon because I can find it with Traverse the Ulvenwald, which is another great addition thanks to this thread.
• Reclamation Sage as I sideboard I like because of it hitting enchantments as well, works well with Liquimetal, and can be bounced with TiTi.
• Phyrexian Metamorph used to be a Sculpting Steel because copying an opponent Karn or Lili or (insert threat here) is just too much fun, and Sculpting Steel relied too much on Liquimetal, where Metamorph hedges my chances a lot more.
• Shrapnel Blast is my 1-of in place of Roast, as I can target unneeded lands or even Liquimetal itself to close out the game. I'm thinking I should pump it up to a 2-of though.
• I would really like another Surgical Extraction in the sideboard, it has been an absolute monster in every matchup.

Now this deck is still very much a work in progress, but adding elements of RUG Delver made it as solid as it has ever been. One of the biggest things I think it is missing compared to most of your decks is Serum Visions. Just not sure how/where to fit it. Maybe instead of a few Traverses? Also considered running Gnarlwood Dryad after seeing Trinket King running it, but it looks like he even turned away from it eventually, and since he has success running TiTi and Goyf alongside each other I decided to test that as well.

Well, that is everything I can think of. Thanks for reading, and if you have any ideas, even weird ones, please speak up! I really appreciate it.

@Liquidbeaver: Hi and welcome to the thread.
I'm quite curious to hear how your deck performs. I never liked much that pseudo combo having 5 cards (more if you count grudges in some match ups) that do nothing by themselves but now that can be mitigated by looting and may be playable.
[I don't have time to test it by myself since I'm currently playing countercats (with pretty good results: paths is a bomb of a card!)...]

Hey liquid! I love the liquimetal package. It's delightfully evil!!
I think you might see some benefit from reviewing our typical sb plans to help better hedge against the top tier decks.
I'm curious on your stats vs Burn and control.

Everybody else... I'm curious if this build could support shoal.

@Mikefon: Thank you for commenting!

It actually performs pretty well, although I've only tested it against a limited range of decks so far. The Delver shell definitely helps a lot, I haven't found anything so low to the ground that naturally fits what the deck is doing in the first place (getting spells in the GY).

More to your point, I've never liked how many cards it took to support the "combo", even though I loved the interaction once it came out on the board. Liquimetal in particular is awesome to draw 2 of over the course of a game, but really sucks to draw any more than that, or several in a row. With that in mind I had a thought that should make the whole deck work just a little better, at least as far as the drawback to shoehorning a combo in is concerned.

I took out 2x Liquimetal Coating, added a Argent Mutation, and a Muddle the Mixture. More spells to flip Delver and TiTi, but effectively the same number of Liquimetal effects in an average game. Saheeli is still there to make some extra copies if need be. Mutation is at worst just a cantrip, and at a best a "Pay 3: Destroy a land and draw a card", with comboing it with artifact removal being somewhere inbetween. Just having the option of flashing it back later in the game is a nice bonus. This may just be better as a second Muddle.

During my numerous builds of this so far, I always felt like 4 was too few artifact removal spells, and more than 6 was too heavy. Knowing that, I dropped 2x Ancient Grudge for 2x Abrade. Abrade was the only artifact removal I had in the mainboard of the Izzet version, and I sideboarded in 2x Smash to Smithereens to get that feeling of "not enough" removal to go away. With a 2-2 split of Abrade and Grudge I think it adds a lot more mainboard flexibility in both general removal and artifact removal, without having to commit too hard to the Liquimetal plan, while still technically having 6+ instances of artifact removal.

Not sure about Traverse the Ulvenwald so much, as even at 18 lands I hit all my necessary land drops pretty consistently, and I don't get to use the Delirium trigger that much unless I get some more spell variety in here. For now, switching this to Serum Visions for more digging.

Switched out mainboard Vapor Snag for Mission Briefing. At least in my meta, there are a ton of creatures with ETB effects that I don't want happening more than once. I like Briefing a lot, especially for flipping TiTi more quickly, and more than I want another Snapcaster, as I think a small but potent number of creatures has been best for the deck.

Again, this is still really early in the playtesting (I only started on the Temur version 3 days ago), so I have a lot of flexibility in trying different cards, so if you have even drastic ideas, let me know!


@ObnixilisNate: Thanks for commenting! Liquimetal is just so fun, and even among my friends who I've been bouncing ideas off of the entire time, when it came to playtesting and I started killing off their lands they laughed at the first, but then started to get mad when I'd do it a few more, haha. The only problem is the harder you go for the combo, the slower the deck gets, and I don't want to rely on Lotus Blooms or something to power out Mycosynth Lattices and March of the Machines. Hopefully I can get it to a point where it still feels like Liquimetal is an integral part of the deck, even if it is just something that benefits me more in the late game.

In regards to the sideboard, the more I look at having a transformative sideboard, the more I think it is trying to be too cute, and not having the space for real answers makes the mainboard less effective. I'm definitely going to look back through the posts in this thread and get an idea of what you guys like to use against different matchups.

I think this is probably a good starting point to rebuild the sideboard from:


I haven't been able to test the Temur version against anyone but Forge yet (Humans/Tron), so I took that performance with a grain of salt. That being said, I think mainboard Blood Moon, Thing in the Ice, and all the artifact removal is a really solid core against Humans.

I should be able to get a bunch of games in this weekend against Bant Spirits, Soul Sisters, U/R Faeries, 12-Bolt, and my Doran deck. I have playtested the Izzet Delver version of the deck against the first four, however.

Spirits was hard because I had no answers for aggro, I also had a hard time flipping Delver or TiTi, and the newest iteration of the deck should have a much easier time with that. I was also missing some board presence that Goyf is definitely going to make a big difference in. I got Liquimetal out a few times to good effect, but having no pressure during the early game definitely lost it for me.

Soul Sisters was okay, although no hexproof creatures so it was a lot easier to remove large Ajani's Pridemates and whatnot. Blocking with TiTi worked great in the early game, but not flipping it consistently made it hard to finish it out. I think the new creature base I have will help this matchup a bunch as well.

U/R Faeries went pretty well, I won a few games, and it would have been even more if I had any sideboard at all.

12-Bolt was just as hard as Spirits, and I am betting traditional Burn would be even harder. I had enough to deal with all the threats on the ground like Prowess creatures and Bomat, but couldn't do anything about the direct damage to me. I'm guessing in this matchup that Temur Delver decks would focus more on bring in more relevant counterspells?

Once I get more settled into a build I am going to start keeping tracking of exactly which interactions didn't work, where I felt strong or weak, what my performance was in every game, how I sideboarded, etc... so that I can start more seriously comparing builds to make sure I am making progress.

I am very interested in Shoal as well. I was surprised at the number of people in this thread that have success with it, but it makes sense because much of the deck is built with it in mind. I have to admit I would have no idea where to start with modifying the deck to run it, but I will try anything!

I'm starting to think you should almost just drop Goyf at this point then as it's pretty much the only reason your in green. (Apart from fleeting away from grudge).

And I'm actually happier keeping the combo in rather than silver bullets to use with traverse or the second creature based combo that could be far easier to interrupt.

I'm gonna try your first list but with some minor changes.

That's awesome! Let me know what you end up trying, I'm very interested in getting different perspectives on this.

I've been wanting to make a deck around it for years now and really got working hard on it the last few weeks, so I'm up for experimenting with anything to make it fit together finally.

I'm probably going to try something like this

What do you think about experimental frenzy? There's a lot of buzz about it right now.
I'd like to test it in side against BGx and control deck.
I currently play keranos in that slot since trophy and path help ramping to it and that's a card resilient to both.