Yeah I have tried both deprive and remand and i'll hard pass on deprive. UU is too mana intensive (in my experience) remand replaces itself which is amazing in tempo (especially since we lost probe as a cantrip). I'm playing straight temur, not 4 color. But i'll repectfully disagree on the remand part, its been amazing for me so far.
Post your list! Maybe you have a build that enables Remand to be better than most people seem to think it is.
Personally, I don't like it because we don't kill quickly enough. We are great at presenting a clock, but our clock isn't fast enough to stop their spell from coming back in a couple of turns.
I think Deprive needs you to be very careful with how you play. I would try it as a one-of over my third Leak, but I would probably get punished by not fetching for it. Or, get punished by taking extra damage to get UU and then draw one of the Leaks. I believe some of the people here offset some of the damage using Fastlands, but I like going plain fetch/shock/basic to optimize graveyard interactions.
Just an update on a Todd Anderson inspired Temur Delver list that I have been doing pretty well with lately (70% match win rate in the 2 man-ques on Magic Online over 75 games):
Cards that have impressed me:
Cryptic Command:
this card has been a lot better than I thought it would be. It has been able to win games I could not have won otherwise where I tap out their entire team and swing for lethal or secure the final turns against a tron deck. One copy has been working out great in the maindeck.
Spreading Seas:
I saw Todd playing this card in his sideboard and thought it would be even better in combination with Blood Moon. I was not wrong. Opponents sometimes get cute and fetch around a blood moon, but then we can just tag their basics with spreading seas and get them good. (Note this works best against decks not playing Blue) There have even been scenarios where I dont have enough Islands in play for my blood moon and I just enchant one of my lands with a spreading seas before I play blood moon and then I have blue mana :D. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the midrange and control decks and try to play a card advantage game (Huntmaster) I just board in the spreading seas and blood moon package and just try to disrupt their mana to make all their card advantage worthless and its been working pretty nicely for me especially against the death's shadow jund decks.
Natural State:
Being a one-mana destroy target artifact or enchantment has been pretty useful in regards to flashing it back quickly with a snapcaster mage. I like it over destructive revelry because of how cheap it costs to cast.
Izzet Staticaster:
This card has been a blow out against the go-wide decks who can just flood the board with dudes. Is it better or worse than pyroclasm or anger of the gods? I don't know yet. All I know is that the card has been good.
Cards that have dissapointed:
Simic Charm:
I usually end up siding out Simic charm in most of the matchups. Its not an exciting card to have and is usually just a worse version of the other cards in my deck. But the flexibility is nice to have in the main deck and I think the 1st Simic Charm is better than the 3rd Vapor Snag. I am looking for a better card to put in this slot (spell snare? spell pierce?) but am still testing it.
Threads of Disloyalty:
Threads' ceiling is stealing a Tarmogoyf, which is really good for us because we don't have many way other than this to deal with an opposing tarmogoyf. But against non tarmogoyf decks, trying to steal something has always been just a little too slow or just disastrous. (I stole a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy the other day and found out that it goes back under the opponent's control after it transforms) Not sure if it is a better dismember or a worse dismember. Also, if you steal an opponent's death shadow, it will just die if your lifetotal is higher than 13. So just think of it as a 3 mana removal spell for death's shadow and it starts to get less exciting. I haven't been able to steal a goyf yet, but I will be probably going down to 1 Threads of Disloyalty from now on and putting another counterspell in its place.
There have even been scenarios where I dont have enough Islands in play for my blood moon and I just enchant one of my lands with a spreading seas before I play blood moon and then I have blue mana :D. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the midrange and control decks and try to play a card advantage game (Huntmaster) I just board in the spreading seas and blood moon package and just try to disrupt their mana to make all their card advantage worthless and its been working pretty nicely for me especially against the death's shadow jund decks.
You know how layers work right? You would have to float blue, resolve Moon, then use the blue to enchant your land AFTER Moon resolves, a 5-mana play (unless you are enchanting a basic land with Seas, so exactly Mountain). Six land hate cards seems like a lot but it's great against Shadow.
Also stealing a Shadow can be better than stealing a Goyf in some scenarios.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
There have even been scenarios where I dont have enough Islands in play for my blood moon and I just enchant one of my lands with a spreading seas before I play blood moon and then I have blue mana :D. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the midrange and control decks and try to play a card advantage game (Huntmaster) I just board in the spreading seas and blood moon package and just try to disrupt their mana to make all their card advantage worthless and its been working pretty nicely for me especially against the death's shadow jund decks.
You know how layers work right? You would have to float blue, resolve Moon, then use the blue to enchant your land AFTER Moon resolves, a 5-mana play (unless you are enchanting a basic land with Seas, so exactly Mountain). Six land hate cards seems like a lot but it's great against Shadow.
Also stealing a Shadow can be better than stealing a Goyf in some scenarios.
Allow me to clarify:
Say I have a Spirebluff Canal and a Forest out on turn 2. I cast Spreading seas and target my spirebluff, turning into an island. I play, lets say, a stomping ground on turn 3 and slam a blood moon down. I will then have a stomping ground that is a mountain, a forest, and a spirebluff canal that is now an island. Thats what I was trying to say I was doing.
Edit: Hmmm, I guess I don't know how layering works. All I know is that I have had scenarios where I cast spreading seas on a land and I am able to tap for blue with a blood moon in play. Maybe I cast the spreading seas after the blood moon was in play...
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
On a more serious note, Etched Champion. Though Im not sure affinity is prevalent enough to call for it atm. Instant speed sweeper isnt bad, though.
also master of waves and being able to sweep instant speed are very good reasons, but for the same mana Anger of the gods is still much more appealing in my opinion
I quickly switched my Clasms to Angers but then had trouble paying for RR so early in the game and was also clunking out on them. I switched them to Returns and am down to one copy and like it.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I find EE far more effective against Merfolk than our traditional sweeper. Most of their threats are 2 mana, and catcher cannot target EE. Of course, I still side-in pyro or anger or return (whichever one Im playing with).
@ashtonkutcher what are the updates to the deck you've made so far? How has actual delver of secrets been performing in the deck? Has RR for bedlam reveller been a problem?
i'm planning on running the deck through a playtest guantlet and considering bringing it to an IQ this weekend.
@ashtonkutcher what are the updates to the deck you've made so far? How has actual delver of secrets been performing in the deck? Has RR for bedlam reveller been a problem?
i'm planning on running the deck through a playtest guantlet and considering bringing it to an IQ this weekend.
SB:
-1 Destructive Revelry
-2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Kozilek's Return
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Temur Battle Rage
Added a Bauble to help hit delirium in linear matchups, although a better plan here may be to just side out Traverses. Considering Snare and TBR #2 in this slot for that reason. KC was frequently clunky and we're OK at grinding anyway.
Anger was too hard to cast so I split it into Return and Explosives. Also cut a DR for a TBR in the side and I like having two as a concrete plan. TBR comes in against the following decks:
- Decks that chump as a plan (Spirit tokens, dorks, walls, etc.)
- Decks that are way faster than us (Affinity, Tron, etc.)
- Decks that can't remove a Shadow (Merfolk, Temur decks, linear combo/aggro)
Threads might be too cute and I'm considering cutting it for a second EE (amazing card) or a third Brutality (super flexible; superb against Burn). It's great vs Shadows and Goyfs but sometimes dead, forces us to fetch double blue early on which can be annoying, and super lackluster against other creatures. Threads on a Lord does remove it, but we have no use for a 2/2, for example.
On Delver: I like him even in the mirror, and they have Tarfire! But they only run 2-3 copies (usually 2 these days). Often DSJ won't want to wait to kill Delver and will burn Push/Decay/Lili on it, which gives us more room to play our real threats. Otherwise, Delver clocks in the air and helps us Bolt-Snap-Bolt them out of the game. Delver is great against linear decks like Tron, and I think Delver + Leak is better there than Traverse (accelerated into via Wraith and Bauble) + Thoughtseize. He also plays respectable defense vs Affinity and greatly improves that MU.
Reveler: Never hard to get RR for him. Slays the midrange matchups; great in the mirror and against Abzan.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Added a Bauble to help hit delirium in linear matchups, although a better plan here may be to just side out Traverses. Considering Snare and TBR #2 in this slot for that reason. KC was frequently clunky and we're OK at grinding anyway.
Anger was too hard to cast so I split it into Return and Explosives. Also cut a DR for a TBR in the side and I like having two as a concrete plan.
Quote from ashtonkutcher »
Threads might be too cute and I'm considering cutting it for a second EE (amazing card) or a third Brutality (super flexible; superb against Burn). It's great vs Shadows and Goyfs but sometimes dead, forces us to fetch double blue early on which can be annoying, and super lackluster against other creatures. Threads on a Lord does remove it, but we have no use for a 2/2, for example.
Why don't add the TBR main to have both explosives n.2 and brutality n.3 in side? I understand delirium is important in linear match-up, but so are more damage. KC gave us another 2 point of damage (and +1 card advantage whichever other mode we chose) but was clunky in those match-up. TBR usually gives us 4-5 or sometimes more. I think it could be a solid choice. And more consinstency in the side can't hurt either.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Added a Bauble to help hit delirium in linear matchups, although a better plan here may be to just side out Traverses. Considering Snare and TBR #2 in this slot for that reason. KC was frequently clunky and we're OK at grinding anyway.
Anger was too hard to cast so I split it into Return and Explosives. Also cut a DR for a TBR in the side and I like having two as a concrete plan.
Quote from ashtonkutcher »
Threads might be too cute and I'm considering cutting it for a second EE (amazing card) or a third Brutality (super flexible; superb against Burn). It's great vs Shadows and Goyfs but sometimes dead, forces us to fetch double blue early on which can be annoying, and super lackluster against other creatures. Threads on a Lord does remove it, but we have no use for a 2/2, for example.
Why don't add the TBR main to have both explosives n.2 and brutality n.3 in side? I understand delirium is important in linear match-up, but so are more damage. KC gave us another 2 point of damage (and +1 card advantage whichever other mode we chose) but was clunky in those match-up. TBR usually gives us 4-5 or sometimes more. I think it could be a solid choice. And more consinstency in the side can't hurt either.
Could definitely work. Only time it would stink is when we can't find a threat at all and clunk out on Traverses, but with 12 creatures, that's pretty rare. It came up for me once tonight though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I played Jordan's Temur Shadow list for about 20 matches now and absolutely love it!
But after some games I cut down the Shadows to 3. Without Street Wraith this deck is a lot less likely to get Shadow out early and drawing multiples in your starting hand sucks. Shadow is our best threat in the late game yes but that's what we have Traverse for no?
How do you guys feel about GY hate right now? (Temur or 4Color). I run 1 Graff in the side, mostly for CoCo and Storm. But we have other tools at our disposal for those decks, anyways. And if I do run into Dredge, 1 sideboard hate card is usually not enough.
Has anyone else felt comfortable letting go of GY hate in the side? I played (and beat) the new UR Storm last night, and cage didnt seem too necessary (though it does shut off past in flames if countered).
It's a big amount of mana gifting for bounce so it might be worthy. In any case I like the versatility of Surgical even if it's almost useless against dredge. It's a pity that is so difficult to cast anger. It would solve various problems.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
If you find you have the sideboard space, or are in a meta with a bunch of graveyard decks, you should run hate. That said, all of the graveyard-based matchups that I can think of are fine without it.
Goryo's Vengeance: just establish a clock and hold up counters
Abzan Company: Huntmaster clocks and cleans up, Delver and Hoots get in with evasion, Moon cuts off mana and turns off Township, and we have plenty of removal to keep them off of the combo
Death's Shadow: I haven't played it enough to be overly confident, but I think we are at least even here. Delver is cardboard gold due to flying, Huntmaster does work, and we have plenty of clocks in-between. The most important thing here is threat density so that they can't just discard away all of your action. I have enjoyed Traverse so far. Spell Snare is quite good here too. And, of course, they have to respect Snap and Burn
Storm: I haven't played against the Gifts version a bunch, but against the old version, a clock and some interaction was all we needed. They are more reliant on sticking a creature to go off now, so pack all your relevant removal
Dredge: This one I think is even without running hate. If you want to really pound on Dredge, you should definitely pack some hate, though. While it is rare in the meta, I think having no hate is fine. Get a clock and play around Cathartic Reunion (sometimes, this means you can't play your clock immediately). I'm pretty sure everyone here runs Shoal and/or Snare, so that isn't too difficult. They wreck us when they get the nut-draw, but they only have magical Christmas land so often.
What do you guys think? Also, did I miss any important ones?
I think Disrupting Shoal is a better answer than Dryad or Bell strike. I know you don't like it, but if your problem is DSJ, Shoal is a very viable way. Both the cards you suggested are anti-synergic with delver conversely to shoal. And shoal is great against the decks with so many 1 drops. Try to play at least 3 of them (the same way I tried deprives and love them). You'll surely have to adapt your play stile but I think it's worth.
Edit: I agree with everything Kovo said too.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Post your list! Maybe you have a build that enables Remand to be better than most people seem to think it is.
Personally, I don't like it because we don't kill quickly enough. We are great at presenting a clock, but our clock isn't fast enough to stop their spell from coming back in a couple of turns.
I think Deprive needs you to be very careful with how you play. I would try it as a one-of over my third Leak, but I would probably get punished by not fetching for it. Or, get punished by taking extra damage to get UU and then draw one of the Leaks. I believe some of the people here offset some of the damage using Fastlands, but I like going plain fetch/shock/basic to optimize graveyard interactions.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (21)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
4 Mana Leak
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
1 Simic Charm
4 Serum Visions
1 Forked Bolt
Lands (19)
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Blood Moon
3 Spreading Seas
1 Natural State
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Cards that have impressed me:
Cryptic Command:
this card has been a lot better than I thought it would be. It has been able to win games I could not have won otherwise where I tap out their entire team and swing for lethal or secure the final turns against a tron deck. One copy has been working out great in the maindeck.
Spreading Seas:
I saw Todd playing this card in his sideboard and thought it would be even better in combination with Blood Moon. I was not wrong. Opponents sometimes get cute and fetch around a blood moon, but then we can just tag their basics with spreading seas and get them good. (Note this works best against decks not playing Blue) There have even been scenarios where I dont have enough Islands in play for my blood moon and I just enchant one of my lands with a spreading seas before I play blood moon and then I have blue mana :D. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the midrange and control decks and try to play a card advantage game (Huntmaster) I just board in the spreading seas and blood moon package and just try to disrupt their mana to make all their card advantage worthless and its been working pretty nicely for me especially against the death's shadow jund decks.
Natural State:
Being a one-mana destroy target artifact or enchantment has been pretty useful in regards to flashing it back quickly with a snapcaster mage. I like it over destructive revelry because of how cheap it costs to cast.
Izzet Staticaster:
This card has been a blow out against the go-wide decks who can just flood the board with dudes. Is it better or worse than pyroclasm or anger of the gods? I don't know yet. All I know is that the card has been good.
Cards that have dissapointed:
Simic Charm:
I usually end up siding out Simic charm in most of the matchups. Its not an exciting card to have and is usually just a worse version of the other cards in my deck. But the flexibility is nice to have in the main deck and I think the 1st Simic Charm is better than the 3rd Vapor Snag. I am looking for a better card to put in this slot (spell snare? spell pierce?) but am still testing it.
Threads of Disloyalty:
Threads' ceiling is stealing a Tarmogoyf, which is really good for us because we don't have many way other than this to deal with an opposing tarmogoyf. But against non tarmogoyf decks, trying to steal something has always been just a little too slow or just disastrous. (I stole a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy the other day and found out that it goes back under the opponent's control after it transforms) Not sure if it is a better dismember or a worse dismember. Also, if you steal an opponent's death shadow, it will just die if your lifetotal is higher than 13. So just think of it as a 3 mana removal spell for death's shadow and it starts to get less exciting. I haven't been able to steal a goyf yet, but I will be probably going down to 1 Threads of Disloyalty from now on and putting another counterspell in its place.
Also stealing a Shadow can be better than stealing a Goyf in some scenarios.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Allow me to clarify:
Say I have a Spirebluff Canal and a Forest out on turn 2. I cast Spreading seas and target my spirebluff, turning into an island. I play, lets say, a stomping ground on turn 3 and slam a blood moon down. I will then have a stomping ground that is a mountain, a forest, and a spirebluff canal that is now an island. Thats what I was trying to say I was doing.
Edit: Hmmm, I guess I don't know how layering works. All I know is that I have had scenarios where I cast spreading seas on a land and I am able to tap for blue with a blood moon in play. Maybe I cast the spreading seas after the blood moon was in play...
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
i'm planning on running the deck through a playtest guantlet and considering bringing it to an IQ this weekend.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death’s Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts (3)
3 Mishra’s Bauble
Instants (13)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
2 Fatal Push
2 Mana Leak
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
Sorceries (12)
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Steam Vents
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bedlam Reveler
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Terminate
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Forest
Main:
-1 Kolaghan's Command
+1 Mishra's Bauble
SB:
-1 Destructive Revelry
-2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Kozilek's Return
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Temur Battle Rage
Added a Bauble to help hit delirium in linear matchups, although a better plan here may be to just side out Traverses. Considering Snare and TBR #2 in this slot for that reason. KC was frequently clunky and we're OK at grinding anyway.
Anger was too hard to cast so I split it into Return and Explosives. Also cut a DR for a TBR in the side and I like having two as a concrete plan. TBR comes in against the following decks:
- Decks that chump as a plan (Spirit tokens, dorks, walls, etc.)
- Decks that are way faster than us (Affinity, Tron, etc.)
- Decks that can't remove a Shadow (Merfolk, Temur decks, linear combo/aggro)
Threads might be too cute and I'm considering cutting it for a second EE (amazing card) or a third Brutality (super flexible; superb against Burn). It's great vs Shadows and Goyfs but sometimes dead, forces us to fetch double blue early on which can be annoying, and super lackluster against other creatures. Threads on a Lord does remove it, but we have no use for a 2/2, for example.
On Delver: I like him even in the mirror, and they have Tarfire! But they only run 2-3 copies (usually 2 these days). Often DSJ won't want to wait to kill Delver and will burn Push/Decay/Lili on it, which gives us more room to play our real threats. Otherwise, Delver clocks in the air and helps us Bolt-Snap-Bolt them out of the game. Delver is great against linear decks like Tron, and I think Delver + Leak is better there than Traverse (accelerated into via Wraith and Bauble) + Thoughtseize. He also plays respectable defense vs Affinity and greatly improves that MU.
Reveler: Never hard to get RR for him. Slays the midrange matchups; great in the mirror and against Abzan.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Why don't add the TBR main to have both explosives n.2 and brutality n.3 in side? I understand delirium is important in linear match-up, but so are more damage. KC gave us another 2 point of damage (and +1 card advantage whichever other mode we chose) but was clunky in those match-up. TBR usually gives us 4-5 or sometimes more. I think it could be a solid choice. And more consinstency in the side can't hurt either.
Modern:
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
But after some games I cut down the Shadows to 3. Without Street Wraith this deck is a lot less likely to get Shadow out early and drawing multiples in your starting hand sucks. Shadow is our best threat in the late game yes but that's what we have Traverse for no?
Has anyone else felt comfortable letting go of GY hate in the side? I played (and beat) the new UR Storm last night, and cage didnt seem too necessary (though it does shut off past in flames if countered).
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Modern:
If you find you have the sideboard space, or are in a meta with a bunch of graveyard decks, you should run hate. That said, all of the graveyard-based matchups that I can think of are fine without it.
Goryo's Vengeance: just establish a clock and hold up counters
Abzan Company: Huntmaster clocks and cleans up, Delver and Hoots get in with evasion, Moon cuts off mana and turns off Township, and we have plenty of removal to keep them off of the combo
Death's Shadow: I haven't played it enough to be overly confident, but I think we are at least even here. Delver is cardboard gold due to flying, Huntmaster does work, and we have plenty of clocks in-between. The most important thing here is threat density so that they can't just discard away all of your action. I have enjoyed Traverse so far. Spell Snare is quite good here too. And, of course, they have to respect Snap and Burn
Storm: I haven't played against the Gifts version a bunch, but against the old version, a clock and some interaction was all we needed. They are more reliant on sticking a creature to go off now, so pack all your relevant removal
Dredge: This one I think is even without running hate. If you want to really pound on Dredge, you should definitely pack some hate, though. While it is rare in the meta, I think having no hate is fine. Get a clock and play around Cathartic Reunion (sometimes, this means you can't play your clock immediately). I'm pretty sure everyone here runs Shoal and/or Snare, so that isn't too difficult. They wreck us when they get the nut-draw, but they only have magical Christmas land so often.
What do you guys think? Also, did I miss any important ones?
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Edit: I agree with everything Kovo said too.
Modern:
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver