So im trying to make some changes before states on sunday. I expect a lot of abazan company, and aggressive creature decks like zoo and merfolk. What manabase changes should i make, and what sideboard additions do i need?
Anyone know of any mainboard or sideboard tech to help against Supreme Verdict decks?
I like the look of Wrap in Vigor but I haven't tested it yet.
Or, you could just not overextend..
^This. You shouldn't play bad cards just so you can play badly.
To be a little more helpfull.
Control decks that run Verdict usually run bolt, helix and path as their removal. Obviously path is the only card that can take care of your goyfs and monkeys. Keep your stubborn denials for those paths and don't over extend. If you follow this gameplan, you don't need clunky SB cards to deal with an otherwise winnable matchup.
Given that your gameplan typically revolves around pushing 1-2 threats through, you can just bounce whatever you want to keep. Post-board, you should have access to up to 8 cards that do that. Obviously, bouncing back the ape (or flipped Delver, for that matter) is suboptimal, but replaying a Goyf shouldn't hurt much.
Returning a huntmaster aint the worst thing in the world, either.
I went 3-1 last night, beating infect, goblins, and BG Elves. I lost 1-2 to Naya Chord. It was a close match. I lost game 1, but swept game 2 and grinded game 3. It went to turns and I was stuck at 4 mana for too long to comfortably cast hunt master and have mana up for controlling chord. In retrospect, I could have cast hunt master sooner, and bit the bullet on one chord resolving. But hey, ***** happens I could tell my opponent was far more stressed than I was. Which was enjoyable!
For that metagame, you should cut Remand entirely (it's much worse than Leak against pretty much everyone) and play 3 Leak and another Denial. You can also cut a Shoal for another burn spell since you run double Spell Snare, and I would cut a Scour as well with all that removal. Flame Slash is pretty good, and so is Seal of Fire. Also don't play Swerve. I bet you will miss Huntmasters against all that aggro; he wins the Folk, Burn, Gruul Zoo, and Abzan Company matchups on his own.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So, I've made top 4(we split, as it was already pretty late) of a 1K this weekend, has been my first "bigger" tournament with the deck. This deck is an absolute blast to play
Round 1: Bogles(0-2)
Game one he was on the play and I just lost, as I had a hand that wasn't fit for what he was playing. Game two I probed him and saw he had only one creature. I tapped out and shoaled the creature. On my second turn I wanted to pressure him as much as I could and played a goyf, he drew Rest in Peace and had a Path for the Delver. I drew awful and lost the game(kept a 2 lander, drew land number 7)
Round 2: Tron(1-2)
I knew he was on Tron, he just Ulamoged me with stubborn denials in hand. Game Two he missed his second land drop and I ensured he would never hit the second one, successfully. Game three I had a good hand and we played, but I never drew any of the relevant stuff and kept bricking, meanwhile he didn't do anything relevant either, except killing my creatures. In the long game he cast Ulamog and searched for the second one with the land that sacrifices on cast. I knew I had to win every round from now on to make top 8.
Round 3: Infect(2-1)
Game one I had a very good starting hand, with only one creature. We traded resources and I drew lands, until he already had blighted Agent, at that point I started drawing counters... Won Game two and three, he was on a budget list.
Round 4: Naya Big Zoo(2-0)
Won game one on the back of the right counter spells in the right moment, and had a big goyf. Game two Huntmaster did his job, and brought me across the finish line.
Round 5: UB Tezzeret(2-0)
He inquisitioned and just couldn't keep up with me, he didn't have enough threats(probably only 4 Tezzerets and Thopter Swords). Pretty easy to keep him from resolving either. Felt like a great matchup, as long as he doesn't have all the discard spells.
Round 6: Affinity(2-1)
Lost a very close game one, where I needed one more turn to finish the game before he did. Won game two and three on the back of Ancient Grudges and Huntmasters.
Top 8: Lantern Control(2-1)
Lost game one, he assembled the combo and we don't have any outs.(he discarded one counter spell and played Bridge, I countered it, he returned it with Academy Ruins and replayed it, after having an early Lantern of Insight plus Mill Rock in play, therefor I couldn't keep countering the Bridge.) Won game two with a good hand, and he was missing one or two pieces. I flipped Ancient Grudge for Delver, pretty nasty Game three I had perfect Information from Probe, after he played a Lantern. Powered out an early Mandrills, that he couldn't discard with IoK. I countered 4 Bridges and he couldn't remove the Mandrills with the Abrupt Decay in hand. The CMC 6 felt awesome in this game, I even exiled my Ancient Grudge for the Mandrills, and it is highly likely it was the right play.
Playing the stock 56 with 1 Seal of Fire, 1 Tarfire, 1 Snapcaster(that didn't show up many times, but was great when he did) and the 4th Stubborn Denial. Was a great event and I look forward playing the deck and learning.
What is the plan behind boarding Huntmaster in in the Affinity match up? I felt how strong he could be, after Ancient Grudge and removal/counters kept the bord in check, is that the reasoning behind playing him?
I used to play sultai delver - basically same deck with decay/dismember instead of bolt and a couple darkslick shores. Finally got my tarns a while back and been meaning to give this deck more attention. Couple questions:
1. Anyone tried 1-2 Mishra's Bauble? It's akin to tarfire as a way to randomly +1 a goyf, has low opportunity cost, has been math'ed to not negatively affect delver flips (times you get to peek and stack = times you reveal the bauble) and can help smooth draws a bit without mana. Downside would I guess be that it doesn't pitch to shoal - but neither does tarfire.
2. Did the 1-2 curiousity MD go the way of the dodo? I saw one in a sideboard in one of the recent lists, but looks like that tech is done with? Kinda makes sense, too much two-for-one action?
3. Best sweeper for the board = pyroclasm or Firespout? Didn't see anyone bothering with anger of the gods, am guessing the double red is too much when red is basically a splash for bolt?
4. Can this deck really run blood moon? We have 3 fetchlands to find 1 basic forest, and if we don't draw one of those 4 cards a moon will cut us off of 8/12 win conditions :/
5. No basic mountain? I know its pointless with moon and there are only four red cards MD, but don't we get in situations vs burn where we end up taking 3 just to bolt a damn goblin guide or nacatl because we are too trolly to run the basic? I've never found putting a tapped land t1 vs burn to be a very promising start, and fetch-shock isn't much better
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@daymioitachi - Nice job on the finish and thanks for the great report! You liked the 4th Denial? 3 Scours, right? Just making sure you're using the new stock list in the primer and not the old one. Shouldn't have split btw
@BadMcFadden -
1. Bauble has been tested here (see the primer) and the slow cantrip usually isn't worth it. There's better Goyf food (Seal, Tarfire, Curiosity).
2. Jund has been pretty bad for awhile (post-Twin ban, post-Oath) so Curiosity was cut, but it's great vs. BGx and other attrition decks. I think it will make a comeback very soon with the now certain rise of Jund and Grixis.
3. Pyroclasm. Three mana is way too much and double red is close to impossible in this deck against fast aggro.
4. Yes? That's why we all play it.
5. Not if you want your Blood Moons to be any good. If you are losing to Burn play Feed the Clan until you've practiced enough to beat it consistently without needing to lean on specific hate cards.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm in an awkward position. I like Traverse the Ulvenwald, but i don't like the SB space it takes in. Playing it as a three off in the main sometimes hampers my linear tempo plan G1. I'm now down to two main and 1 side.
1-2 vs white hatebears - counterspells hit nothing but path, and he still managed to path my goyfs in both his wins. aether vial + flickerwisp takes a lot of the wind out of bolt.
2-1 vs UG infect. Assume this is a good match, burn+counters and esp d.shoal. My loss was when he vinesd my mainphase bolt, untapped and d.strike+krosa+growth his elf I even ripped a simic charm to bounce next turn but being at 9 poison and out of gas is not a position you win from.
2-0 vs UW thopter. Seems pretty easy. Slow-roll threats to avoid explosives/sphere/verdict - win counter wars with stubborn denial. If he lands bridge g1 we're done (including tezzeret to fetch it). I denialed first bridge and then he resolved a tezz and I thought I'm toast - luckily only 1 bridge MD
2-1 vs grixis control. So gurmag angler is a problem and we have no graveyard hate to speak of. Both of my wins here were driven by blood moon. In g2 I managed to bounce an angler then blood moon leaving him with no black. G3 he fetched swamp but never drew an angler, blood moon shut him off cryptic and made it real tough for him to cantrip/snapcaster. Curiousity did a bit of work in this match esp g2 when I mulled to 5 and had my mandril thoughtseized.
I brought in pyroclasm vs hatebears and it felt rotten - he had finks and serra avenger and I just looked at the pyros in disgust. I suppose he could have had a bunch of arbiters/wisps but even blade splicer golem dodges it. Maybe not the matchup its for and I doubt the deck cans upport RR with just two red sourced but damn I would have wanted anger of the gods
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Eh, that happens sometimes. I've had Tarfire in hand against Nacatl before, or Denial over Pierce while opponents have one mana up. Or Leak when they have exactly three. Not a reason to not play these cards IMO since they win so many games.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think the idea is that Dodecapod is a 5/5 when he eats a Lili discard, giving him more game against opposing Tarmogoyfs, since they're more often than not 4/5s in most games. Baloth does nothing against opposing goyfs.
Also, if running the Traverse package, he counts as 2 types toward Delerium if he ends up in the graveyard.
Well, I just used Lily as an example. GBx is classically filled with discard effects and it's by far our worst matchup. I'm not sold on Dodecapod, even in a Traverse sideboard, but I appreciate all the testing these guys do to find spicy tech against GBx.
Jund seems to be on the rise right now, but who knows how the meta will shake out.
I think the idea is that Dodecapod is a 5/5 when he eats a Lili discard, giving him more game against opposing Tarmogoyfs, since they're more often than not 4/5s in most games. Baloth does nothing against opposing goyfs.
Also, if running the Traverse package, he counts as 2 types toward Delerium if he ends up in the graveyard.
And if Dodecapod hits the grave, Goyf will grow one level!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Then Wilt-Leaf Liege is just as good cause it also pumps your Mandrils next to trumping opposing Goyfs
1. You can never cast WLL in this deck
2. WLL is a 4/4
3. WLL has to be on the battlefield WITH another creature to give you any kind of value (win-more)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
hey guys I've been testing for a while and I believe faithless looting could be a good option as a 2x to filter our draws in a very efficient way! even if it's card disadvantage, it can help getting rid of extra lands or useless cards related to the matchup (i.e. bolts vs tron). also, it fills our graveyard as fast as thought scour, which is a very tempo efficient play on the first two turns. thoughts?
The thing is since we only play 17 lands, we rarely have stuff we actually want to cycle away to a Looting. Except in grindy matchups post-board, and there are just better cards we can run out of the side for that kind of deck (i.e. maxing out on Huntmasters, splashing a Traverse package, playing more big threats like Thrun).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
What is everyone's thoughts on the ideal amount of fetches to fetchables split?
Most peoples play around 10/11 fetches, 4 basics and 4/5 duals. Some of us like some amount of sulfur falls in there somewhere.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery:
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
4 Remand
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Tarfire
1 Vapor Snag
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hinterland Harbor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Firespout
1 Flame Slash
1 Deprive
2 Feed the Clan
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Swerve
1 Engineered Explosives
Given that your gameplan typically revolves around pushing 1-2 threats through, you can just bounce whatever you want to keep. Post-board, you should have access to up to 8 cards that do that. Obviously, bouncing back the ape (or flipped Delver, for that matter) is suboptimal, but replaying a Goyf shouldn't hurt much.
I went 3-1 last night, beating infect, goblins, and BG Elves. I lost 1-2 to Naya Chord. It was a close match. I lost game 1, but swept game 2 and grinded game 3. It went to turns and I was stuck at 4 mana for too long to comfortably cast hunt master and have mana up for controlling chord. In retrospect, I could have cast hunt master sooner, and bit the bullet on one chord resolving. But hey, ***** happens I could tell my opponent was far more stressed than I was. Which was enjoyable!
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Round 1: Bogles(0-2)
Game one he was on the play and I just lost, as I had a hand that wasn't fit for what he was playing. Game two I probed him and saw he had only one creature. I tapped out and shoaled the creature. On my second turn I wanted to pressure him as much as I could and played a goyf, he drew Rest in Peace and had a Path for the Delver. I drew awful and lost the game(kept a 2 lander, drew land number 7)
Round 2: Tron(1-2)
I knew he was on Tron, he just Ulamoged me with stubborn denials in hand. Game Two he missed his second land drop and I ensured he would never hit the second one, successfully. Game three I had a good hand and we played, but I never drew any of the relevant stuff and kept bricking, meanwhile he didn't do anything relevant either, except killing my creatures. In the long game he cast Ulamog and searched for the second one with the land that sacrifices on cast. I knew I had to win every round from now on to make top 8.
Round 3: Infect(2-1)
Game one I had a very good starting hand, with only one creature. We traded resources and I drew lands, until he already had blighted Agent, at that point I started drawing counters... Won Game two and three, he was on a budget list.
Round 4: Naya Big Zoo(2-0)
Won game one on the back of the right counter spells in the right moment, and had a big goyf. Game two Huntmaster did his job, and brought me across the finish line.
Round 5: UB Tezzeret(2-0)
He inquisitioned and just couldn't keep up with me, he didn't have enough threats(probably only 4 Tezzerets and Thopter Swords). Pretty easy to keep him from resolving either. Felt like a great matchup, as long as he doesn't have all the discard spells.
Round 6: Affinity(2-1)
Lost a very close game one, where I needed one more turn to finish the game before he did. Won game two and three on the back of Ancient Grudges and Huntmasters.
Top 8: Lantern Control(2-1)
Lost game one, he assembled the combo and we don't have any outs.(he discarded one counter spell and played Bridge, I countered it, he returned it with Academy Ruins and replayed it, after having an early Lantern of Insight plus Mill Rock in play, therefor I couldn't keep countering the Bridge.) Won game two with a good hand, and he was missing one or two pieces. I flipped Ancient Grudge for Delver, pretty nasty Game three I had perfect Information from Probe, after he played a Lantern. Powered out an early Mandrills, that he couldn't discard with IoK. I countered 4 Bridges and he couldn't remove the Mandrills with the Abrupt Decay in hand. The CMC 6 felt awesome in this game, I even exiled my Ancient Grudge for the Mandrills, and it is highly likely it was the right play.
Playing the stock 56 with 1 Seal of Fire, 1 Tarfire, 1 Snapcaster(that didn't show up many times, but was great when he did) and the 4th Stubborn Denial. Was a great event and I look forward playing the deck and learning.
What is the plan behind boarding Huntmaster in in the Affinity match up? I felt how strong he could be, after Ancient Grudge and removal/counters kept the bord in check, is that the reasoning behind playing him?
1. Anyone tried 1-2 Mishra's Bauble? It's akin to tarfire as a way to randomly +1 a goyf, has low opportunity cost, has been math'ed to not negatively affect delver flips (times you get to peek and stack = times you reveal the bauble) and can help smooth draws a bit without mana. Downside would I guess be that it doesn't pitch to shoal - but neither does tarfire.
2. Did the 1-2 curiousity MD go the way of the dodo? I saw one in a sideboard in one of the recent lists, but looks like that tech is done with? Kinda makes sense, too much two-for-one action?
3. Best sweeper for the board = pyroclasm or Firespout? Didn't see anyone bothering with anger of the gods, am guessing the double red is too much when red is basically a splash for bolt?
4. Can this deck really run blood moon? We have 3 fetchlands to find 1 basic forest, and if we don't draw one of those 4 cards a moon will cut us off of 8/12 win conditions :/
5. No basic mountain? I know its pointless with moon and there are only four red cards MD, but don't we get in situations vs burn where we end up taking 3 just to bolt a damn goblin guide or nacatl because we are too trolly to run the basic? I've never found putting a tapped land t1 vs burn to be a very promising start, and fetch-shock isn't much better
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@BadMcFadden -
1. Bauble has been tested here (see the primer) and the slow cantrip usually isn't worth it. There's better Goyf food (Seal, Tarfire, Curiosity).
2. Jund has been pretty bad for awhile (post-Twin ban, post-Oath) so Curiosity was cut, but it's great vs. BGx and other attrition decks. I think it will make a comeback very soon with the now certain rise of Jund and Grixis.
3. Pyroclasm. Three mana is way too much and double red is close to impossible in this deck against fast aggro.
4. Yes? That's why we all play it.
5. Not if you want your Blood Moons to be any good. If you are losing to Burn play Feed the Clan until you've practiced enough to beat it consistently without needing to lean on specific hate cards.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also, Dodecapod in the board is a champ.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
1-2 vs white hatebears - counterspells hit nothing but path, and he still managed to path my goyfs in both his wins. aether vial + flickerwisp takes a lot of the wind out of bolt.
2-1 vs UG infect. Assume this is a good match, burn+counters and esp d.shoal. My loss was when he vinesd my mainphase bolt, untapped and d.strike+krosa+growth his elf I even ripped a simic charm to bounce next turn but being at 9 poison and out of gas is not a position you win from.
2-0 vs UW thopter. Seems pretty easy. Slow-roll threats to avoid explosives/sphere/verdict - win counter wars with stubborn denial. If he lands bridge g1 we're done (including tezzeret to fetch it). I denialed first bridge and then he resolved a tezz and I thought I'm toast - luckily only 1 bridge MD
2-1 vs grixis control. So gurmag angler is a problem and we have no graveyard hate to speak of. Both of my wins here were driven by blood moon. In g2 I managed to bounce an angler then blood moon leaving him with no black. G3 he fetched swamp but never drew an angler, blood moon shut him off cryptic and made it real tough for him to cantrip/snapcaster. Curiousity did a bit of work in this match esp g2 when I mulled to 5 and had my mandril thoughtseized.
I brought in pyroclasm vs hatebears and it felt rotten - he had finks and serra avenger and I just looked at the pyros in disgust. I suppose he could have had a bunch of arbiters/wisps but even blade splicer golem dodges it. Maybe not the matchup its for and I doubt the deck cans upport RR with just two red sourced but damn I would have wanted anger of the gods
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also, if running the Traverse package, he counts as 2 types toward Delerium if he ends up in the graveyard.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Jund seems to be on the rise right now, but who knows how the meta will shake out.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Word. (On all accounts).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
2. WLL is a 4/4
3. WLL has to be on the battlefield WITH another creature to give you any kind of value (win-more)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy