The conversation moving towards a green splash made my entire week and forced me out of lurking.
You may want to take out Breaking // Entering for the same reason you removed the Archive Trap, getting hit for 8 off of a Bob would really not be fun. Green splash gets you Abrupt Decay that shores up so many of the weak points for us. Also imagine on turn three with a crab still in play (super unlikely, I know), dropping and cracking a fetch, tapping out for Harrow to grab the mana needed for a Glimpse. Or saving it in response to Blood Moon to get decay mana up.
I never really thought about Goyf as an addition to the green splash, but it makes a lot of sense to easily get past bolt range with our natural win con. Totally going to proxy them up and give it a test!
My mind was on Melira, and the thought occurred to me, 'Might as well use Goyf.'
And then I realized nothing feeds the Goyf quite like 'Mill 10'. I'm actually quite confused as to why no one has mentioned the power of Goyf combined with Mill. Green really adds a whole new element.
Digging deeper, Scapeshift has potential. Probably replace Breaking/Entering with a couple Scapeshift, and Tome Scour. I'm glad you caught that. Helps reduce the logjam at cmc 2, as well. Have to go budget here, as I do not have Zenfetches or Goyfs.
My mind was on Melira, and the thought occurred to me, 'Might as well use Goyf.'
And then I realized nothing feeds the Goyf quite like 'Mill 10'. I'm actually quite confused as to why no one has mentioned the power of Goyf combined with Mill. Green really adds a whole new element.
Digging deeper, Scapeshift has potential. Probably replace Breaking/Entering with a couple Scapeshift, and Tome Scour. I'm glad you caught that. Helps reduce the logjam at cmc 2, as well. Have to go budget here, as I do not have Zenfetches or Goyfs.
I really like your thinking outside the box here! I've never contemplated adding green, I'm excited to hear your report on it.
I'd think you might even have a chance with the beatdown plan, having Goyfs and Phantasm in there. Side benefit that they will draw more heat away from the crabs for you to land that scapeshift or harrow combo with it.
Everyone who plays mill knows the power of goyf because it kills us every time we don't deal with it
Yet it took us this long to think of stealing it for ourselves? IDK if Goyf is strictly better than Phantasm with 10 cards in the graveyard, but it is up there, and a real threat that will be addressed. Phantasm often flies under the radar, because they see 1/1 flyer, and do not realize until you swing how big he is. Goyf? They know as soon as he comes down he's a problem, even if they do not know you are a mill deck.
Granted, he is a HUGE add to the deck, pricewise, which may be why it hasn't been attempted yet. Mill was a budget deck before Glimpse almost doubled. Now Mill is $800 - $900. With Goyf and the zenfetches, its $1800. 0.o.
Even if I am not really tempted by the green splash, it is obviously a great idea for those who would like to play an Aggro Mill deck (with Phantasm, Goyf and Nihilith).
On a "pure mill" perspective, I still believe that white is more suited. Abrupt Decay does not get rid of Leyline, is slower than Path, does not combo with Mind Funeral and Archive Trap; Goyf does not stall the game as Prison or Bridge would; and Melira is very narrow. But if your plan is to go fast and play a midrange deck with a alternate win condition if the beatdown plan does not work, I think it could be awesome.
So, 3 mill deck strategies:
- Straight U/B combo with Mindcrank
- U/B or Esper control
- Sultai Aggro
But Sultai Mill can run Nature's Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, Blood Moon and Affinity, Melira for Infect, as well as Scapeshift, Harrow, and an as yet unexplored number of green cards that open up Hedron Crab.
One could build an arcane deck with the Sakura Tribe Scout to play extra lands per turn, drop an Amulet of Vigor, and start bouncing lands for Hedron Crab, while using the mana to drop Glimpse, Breaking, and other mill cards. You could conceivably mill 13+ in a single turn, turn 2. (T1 Breeding Pool, Sakura Tribe Scout. T2 Amulet of Vigor, Dimir Aqueduct (bounces back to hand, but giving 2 mana) Hedron Crab, replay the land, and use your BBU to play Glimpse or Mind Funeral.}
Add an Archive Trap, and that's half their deck, turn 2.
I'm sure that could be optimized, I'll visit it more later.
Splashing for Melira isnt worth it imo. There are many strong options in ub: spellskite, gut shot, slaughter pact, darkblast, collective brutality. On top of dismember, smother, disfigure and blockers.
Goyf isnt worth splashing too, Phantasm is 1 mana and is a flying 5/5. And I dont believe in aggro mill, both of his modes are weak
Double green for Scapeshift to get two cards combo to mill for 24 which is easily countered by killing 0/2 in response?)
What's the general consensus on walkers? I've had a fairly decent time with a 2/1 split of Liliana of the Veil/Liliana, the Last Hope being able to tamp down the board, enabling bridge, and with the added bonus of sometimes being able to get a crab back that wasn't exiled. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has done some good work in the past as well.
Green splash nets you Oath as another fixer to your mana and draws if you're going to go mill superfriends with the added bonus of hitting delirium easier for scribe. Birds of Paradise lets you hit your 3 drop walkers t2. Even 3 drop Nissa as a means to garden up yourself a mass of blockers against aggro decks.
Gonna throw Altar of the Brood out there as a redundant friend to the crab. Mill one off of any etb trigger is minuscule in comparison to the rest of our effects, but it's a controllable one sided mill that doesn't target, it incrementally ticks the opponent down in addition to their draws, and it feels really stupid to use removal on it. As a turn 1 fire and forget way to freely mill the opponent out while leaving your mana up for counters or removal, it might be worth considering.
Nature's Claim would be sweet the other cards would be kinda meh. You'd probably have to find a place for Decay and then we'd be having Decay vs Bridge debates just like you do with Path vs Bridge or Prison vs Bridge. It is pretty hard to run Tarmogoyf without cutting Phantasm and Phantasm is better in my opinion. Mill is pretty narrow on slots because you have to run about 20-23 mill cards which leaves you with like 14 cards.
Like stated above if you want to hate infect black has the best cards (Darkblast, Night of Soul's Betrayl)
On a side note I saw an Esper Mill build that ran Rest in Peace main and ditched the Phantasms, Crypts, and Visions and ran a lot more removal like Supreme Verdict, Bridge, Prison, Path, and a couple 1 ofs like Anguished Unmaking and Flaying Tendrils. Looked cool... I haven't seen him play the deck against our troublesome matchups though.
Some very cool ideas in regard to the green splash. It's not for me, but I'll certainly be curious to see how people fare with it.
After lots of playtesting, I'm thinking that it's time to make room for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek in the maindeck. Any specific advice or experiences related to this?
Three Scribes might be what make way for the Inquisitions, which would leave me with Crab as my only maindeck creature. This may well be suicidal, but I'll give it a few runs and see how it plays.
Edit: And then another part of me is looking at how most losses seem to accrue when the draws let us down, and wondering whether cantrip effects like Wall of Omens and Thought Scour are the way forward.
I feel like you can tinker with this archetype (especially if you play Esper colors) forever. There must be 100+ legitimate contenders for our ~38 non-land slots.
If you look in the history of this thread one of the more knowledgeable posters R0kruin (sp?) felt 4 paths and 4 inquisitions were enough to get rid of Ensnaring Bridge and Ghostly Prison from the 75. He argued hard for inquisition and said late game inquisitions had won him games even when he drew it late.
As for the planeswalkers post. I recently saw a list run Ashiok and have tested the list on a limited sample. Ashiok + Bridge will beat Emrakul game 1 and it's basically a Manic Scribe that always has delirium and can throw creatures at your opponent to slow them down. I think her value goes down without Ensnaring Bridge because she will just turn into a gain 5 life mill 3 card.
That all being said, I just saw another deck 5-0 a modern competitive league and of course it ran Ensnaring Bridge and Jace's Phantasm.
If you look in the history of this thread one of the more knowledgeable posters R0kruin (sp?) felt 4 paths and 4 inquisitions were enough to get rid of Ensnaring Bridge and Ghostly Prison from the 75. He argued hard for inquisition and said late game inquisitions had won him games even when he drew it late.
Thanks, I'll check out his posts. My own testing has me liking Inquisition at the moment. In theory, it pairs spectacularly with Extraction, so perhaps if your local meta doesn't call for Extractions in the maindeck, you should leave the Inquisitions at home too.
Haven't had enough games with Wall of Omens to have a thorough understanding of its performance, but so far I've got no complaints. A few pages back, there was talk of the forthcoming Yahenni's Expertise. It occurs to me that Wall (and active Phantasms) survive the -3/-3. Nothing like a boardwipe that spares your side while casting a cmc < 4 spell for free! By turn 4, Lord-heavy tribal decks like Merfolk can easily grow to the point where 3 damage doesn't reach them, however, which is worrisome.
@Sky, nice performance. What happened during your win in Game 1 vs Infect? Rough luck against the Ad Nauseum deck.
Re: your mention of Urborg, I just picked one up myself. What land would you substitute it in for?
Inquisition can still be a very viable sideboard card if you wanted to go that route. It's a good card on its own. Thoughtscour is in a bunch of lists and all of them only play 22 lands. Right now it is not in my list because I like this list that top 64'd a Japan tournament. The list plays Phantasm, Bridge, Crypt, Visions as the non mill cards and uses Ashiok instead of Manic Scribe and splashes a Startled Awake. Set Adrift, Drown in Sorrow, Extirpate, Leyline Void, Graf cage in board... I may tweak the sideboard to just extract effects because they are so much better against dredge. Cage is good against Nahiri and coco or abzan combo I may throw something else in there.
The question for Yahenni will be is it better than Damnation because that's what it's competing against. Maybe? The difference between 3 and 4 mana in modern is enormous. That's why I like this Drown in Sorrows for the sideboard. The scry is relevant, and you can get it down on turn 3 before Merfolk or whoever gets ahead of it. Tendrils will kill bloodghasts which is nice but it doesn't get rid of Amalgams so it's like whatever... Explosives is also very good because a lot of decks run only 1 drop creatures and you can pretty much clean them out on turn 3 instead of turn 4 which is the difference between living and dying or against Affinity you can kill all their problem cards on 2 and no other board wipe kills Plating. EE gets rid of goyfs, Death Shadow, whatever... It's nice to put on 3 but I probably not even necessary since all the stuff that kills us is 1 or 2 cost mostly. I've tried Ratchet bomb and it just sucks. There is a reason that card is less than a dollar. I'll probably test Yahenni Expertise but I won't be expecting a ton.
Leave No Trace might be an option. You lose the flexibility against Affinity but can kill multiple Leylines or Blood Moons and you have a good hate card against Bogles.
I forgot that Breaking was a fused card... That would be sick.
I feel like Lost Legacy is too narrow in my opinion and is just adding cards to matchups you already have sideboard cards for.
The card I'm most excited about is Fatal Push! For a black mana at instant speed you get to destroy every relevant creature in modern that kills us. Or we crack a fetch and kill every other creature in the format except Reality Smasher. This card gives UB a removal spell equal to Path and the argument for splashing white is a lot less appealing. This card is better than Dismember, Disfigure, and every other removal spell black has. If you decide to stick with Esper you could play this with Path and have up to 8 spot removal spells. This card will be a modern staple.
If the tokens had flying I'd be more excited about Sram's Expertise. Affinity and Infect will be able to get around this card and it costs 4.
The card I'm most excited about is Fatal Push! For a black mana at instant speed you get to destroy every relevant creature in modern that kills us. Or we crack a fetch and kill every other creature in the format except Reality Smasher. This card gives UB a removal spell equal to Path and the argument for splashing white is a lot less appealing. This card is better than Dismember, Disfigure, and every other removal spell black has. If you decide to stick with Esper you could play this with Path and have up to 8 spot removal spells. This card will be a modern staple.
I'm an Esper player and I couldn't agree more! The instant I saw Fatal Push, I thought of jamming it in here. While you're right that this card shores up what is perhaps the U/B version's most glaring weakness, I also think it will do wonders for the Esper control-style Mill. 4 Paths and 4 Pushes into Orbs and Prisons has me way more optimistic against the likes of Infect.
@Sky, both the white and black Expertise cards seem potentially useful, I'd say. 4 is a bit slow, but if we start maindecking more spot removal they might prove playable. Either way, I'm optimistic about this set.
Super stoked about Fatal Push! Going 3-4 of in my 75 UB mill, it's exactly what the deck needed. I currently run Murderous Cut and Disfigure to deal with creatures and it feels pretty sub-optimal. The fact that this hits Tarmogoyf is huge!
I played with my buddies yesterday and put 4 Push in the mainboard proxied up, and shifted my Victim of Night and Go for the Throat to the side. It was worth every slot without a doubt, I never drew it and didn't have a target. Push-Snap-Push came into play against infect (he was actually beating me down regular with 3 Hierarchs on board), used it to dominate a Gruul Zoo (Seeya Goyf!). For UB mill this card is a game changer for sure, I can't think of another deck archetype that it helps out more.
Uncommon printing in a current set, I don't think it's going to be too ridiculously expensive. I think I'm going to pick up 2 playsets of them.
To me, this card makes Esper mill unnecessary. When I ran Esper, it was mostly for Path in the mainboard, and it also gave some sideboard options. But going to UB allows for less painful mana, as well as the inclusion of 3 Ghost Quarter in the main, which is also relevant in a lot of matchups. Between Ghost Quarters and fetches (I run 6) it's usually feasible to activate the revolt trigger.
Other shifts I made to accommodate push was removing Jace's Phantasm completely. I still haven't been sold on it, it's main use to me is as a blocker. Why block when I can Push? So stoked on it.
It is going to be ridiculously expensive - for an uncommon. I can see it hitting $5 a copy. Legacy and modern want this card as a 4-of. Vintage might want some number too, but I understand vintage doesn't use creatures as much.
As was said on reddit, Path to Exile is an $8 card after EIGHT printings. This is ranked as better than Path (Bolt, Push, Path, in that order) and, like Bolt in red, will become an auto 4-of in every modern deck that plays black.
In fact, it has already joined that most elite company of Modern cards: those that you splash a color just so you can play it. Bolt, Goyf and now Push.
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You may want to take out Breaking // Entering for the same reason you removed the Archive Trap, getting hit for 8 off of a Bob would really not be fun. Green splash gets you Abrupt Decay that shores up so many of the weak points for us. Also imagine on turn three with a crab still in play (super unlikely, I know), dropping and cracking a fetch, tapping out for Harrow to grab the mana needed for a Glimpse. Or saving it in response to Blood Moon to get decay mana up.
I never really thought about Goyf as an addition to the green splash, but it makes a lot of sense to easily get past bolt range with our natural win con. Totally going to proxy them up and give it a test!
And then I realized nothing feeds the Goyf quite like 'Mill 10'. I'm actually quite confused as to why no one has mentioned the power of Goyf combined with Mill. Green really adds a whole new element.
Digging deeper, Scapeshift has potential. Probably replace Breaking/Entering with a couple Scapeshift, and Tome Scour. I'm glad you caught that. Helps reduce the logjam at cmc 2, as well. Have to go budget here, as I do not have Zenfetches or Goyfs.
I really like your thinking outside the box here! I've never contemplated adding green, I'm excited to hear your report on it.
I'd think you might even have a chance with the beatdown plan, having Goyfs and Phantasm in there. Side benefit that they will draw more heat away from the crabs for you to land that scapeshift or harrow combo with it.
Yet it took us this long to think of stealing it for ourselves? IDK if Goyf is strictly better than Phantasm with 10 cards in the graveyard, but it is up there, and a real threat that will be addressed. Phantasm often flies under the radar, because they see 1/1 flyer, and do not realize until you swing how big he is. Goyf? They know as soon as he comes down he's a problem, even if they do not know you are a mill deck.
Granted, he is a HUGE add to the deck, pricewise, which may be why it hasn't been attempted yet. Mill was a budget deck before Glimpse almost doubled. Now Mill is $800 - $900. With Goyf and the zenfetches, its $1800. 0.o.
But Sultai Mill can run Nature's Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, Blood Moon and Affinity, Melira for Infect, as well as Scapeshift, Harrow, and an as yet unexplored number of green cards that open up Hedron Crab.
One could build an arcane deck with the Sakura Tribe Scout to play extra lands per turn, drop an Amulet of Vigor, and start bouncing lands for Hedron Crab, while using the mana to drop Glimpse, Breaking, and other mill cards. You could conceivably mill 13+ in a single turn, turn 2. (T1 Breeding Pool, Sakura Tribe Scout. T2 Amulet of Vigor, Dimir Aqueduct (bounces back to hand, but giving 2 mana) Hedron Crab, replay the land, and use your BBU to play Glimpse or Mind Funeral.}
Add an Archive Trap, and that's half their deck, turn 2.
I'm sure that could be optimized, I'll visit it more later.
Goyf isnt worth splashing too, Phantasm is 1 mana and is a flying 5/5. And I dont believe in aggro mill, both of his modes are weak
Double green for Scapeshift to get two cards combo to mill for 24 which is easily countered by killing 0/2 in response?)
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Green splash nets you Oath as another fixer to your mana and draws if you're going to go mill superfriends with the added bonus of hitting delirium easier for scribe. Birds of Paradise lets you hit your 3 drop walkers t2. Even 3 drop Nissa as a means to garden up yourself a mass of blockers against aggro decks.
Gonna throw Altar of the Brood out there as a redundant friend to the crab. Mill one off of any etb trigger is minuscule in comparison to the rest of our effects, but it's a controllable one sided mill that doesn't target, it incrementally ticks the opponent down in addition to their draws, and it feels really stupid to use removal on it. As a turn 1 fire and forget way to freely mill the opponent out while leaving your mana up for counters or removal, it might be worth considering.
Like stated above if you want to hate infect black has the best cards (Darkblast, Night of Soul's Betrayl)
On a side note I saw an Esper Mill build that ran Rest in Peace main and ditched the Phantasms, Crypts, and Visions and ran a lot more removal like Supreme Verdict, Bridge, Prison, Path, and a couple 1 ofs like Anguished Unmaking and Flaying Tendrils. Looked cool... I haven't seen him play the deck against our troublesome matchups though.
After lots of playtesting, I'm thinking that it's time to make room for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek in the maindeck. Any specific advice or experiences related to this?
Three Scribes might be what make way for the Inquisitions, which would leave me with Crab as my only maindeck creature. This may well be suicidal, but I'll give it a few runs and see how it plays.
Edit: And then another part of me is looking at how most losses seem to accrue when the draws let us down, and wondering whether cantrip effects like Wall of Omens and Thought Scour are the way forward.
I feel like you can tinker with this archetype (especially if you play Esper colors) forever. There must be 100+ legitimate contenders for our ~38 non-land slots.
As for the planeswalkers post. I recently saw a list run Ashiok and have tested the list on a limited sample. Ashiok + Bridge will beat Emrakul game 1 and it's basically a Manic Scribe that always has delirium and can throw creatures at your opponent to slow them down. I think her value goes down without Ensnaring Bridge because she will just turn into a gain 5 life mill 3 card.
That all being said, I just saw another deck 5-0 a modern competitive league and of course it ran Ensnaring Bridge and Jace's Phantasm.
Thanks, I'll check out his posts. My own testing has me liking Inquisition at the moment. In theory, it pairs spectacularly with Extraction, so perhaps if your local meta doesn't call for Extractions in the maindeck, you should leave the Inquisitions at home too.
Haven't had enough games with Wall of Omens to have a thorough understanding of its performance, but so far I've got no complaints. A few pages back, there was talk of the forthcoming Yahenni's Expertise. It occurs to me that Wall (and active Phantasms) survive the -3/-3. Nothing like a boardwipe that spares your side while casting a cmc < 4 spell for free! By turn 4, Lord-heavy tribal decks like Merfolk can easily grow to the point where 3 damage doesn't reach them, however, which is worrisome.
@Sky, nice performance. What happened during your win in Game 1 vs Infect? Rough luck against the Ad Nauseum deck.
Re: your mention of Urborg, I just picked one up myself. What land would you substitute it in for?
The question for Yahenni will be is it better than Damnation because that's what it's competing against. Maybe? The difference between 3 and 4 mana in modern is enormous. That's why I like this Drown in Sorrows for the sideboard. The scry is relevant, and you can get it down on turn 3 before Merfolk or whoever gets ahead of it. Tendrils will kill bloodghasts which is nice but it doesn't get rid of Amalgams so it's like whatever... Explosives is also very good because a lot of decks run only 1 drop creatures and you can pretty much clean them out on turn 3 instead of turn 4 which is the difference between living and dying or against Affinity you can kill all their problem cards on 2 and no other board wipe kills Plating. EE gets rid of goyfs, Death Shadow, whatever... It's nice to put on 3 but I probably not even necessary since all the stuff that kills us is 1 or 2 cost mostly. I've tried Ratchet bomb and it just sucks. There is a reason that card is less than a dollar. I'll probably test Yahenni Expertise but I won't be expecting a ton.
Leave No Trace might be an option. You lose the flexibility against Affinity but can kill multiple Leylines or Blood Moons and you have a good hate card against Bogles.
I forgot that Breaking was a fused card... That would be sick.
I feel like Lost Legacy is too narrow in my opinion and is just adding cards to matchups you already have sideboard cards for.
Leave no trace might backfire in your Ghostly Prisons.
If the tokens had flying I'd be more excited about Sram's Expertise. Affinity and Infect will be able to get around this card and it costs 4.
I wonder what the blue Expertise will be?
I'm an Esper player and I couldn't agree more! The instant I saw Fatal Push, I thought of jamming it in here. While you're right that this card shores up what is perhaps the U/B version's most glaring weakness, I also think it will do wonders for the Esper control-style Mill. 4 Paths and 4 Pushes into Orbs and Prisons has me way more optimistic against the likes of Infect.
@Sky, both the white and black Expertise cards seem potentially useful, I'd say. 4 is a bit slow, but if we start maindecking more spot removal they might prove playable. Either way, I'm optimistic about this set.
Is there a way to copy it? I know Blue has Twincast, but at some point, Ensnaring Bridge nullifies everything but Affinity's 0 cost critters.
I REALLY like the idea of Push, Extraction.
This card is not going to be cheap. I'll be heading to prerelease with $1 bills picking them up if I can.
Uncommon printing in a current set, I don't think it's going to be too ridiculously expensive. I think I'm going to pick up 2 playsets of them.
To me, this card makes Esper mill unnecessary. When I ran Esper, it was mostly for Path in the mainboard, and it also gave some sideboard options. But going to UB allows for less painful mana, as well as the inclusion of 3 Ghost Quarter in the main, which is also relevant in a lot of matchups. Between Ghost Quarters and fetches (I run 6) it's usually feasible to activate the revolt trigger.
Other shifts I made to accommodate push was removing Jace's Phantasm completely. I still haven't been sold on it, it's main use to me is as a blocker. Why block when I can Push? So stoked on it.
As was said on reddit, Path to Exile is an $8 card after EIGHT printings. This is ranked as better than Path (Bolt, Push, Path, in that order) and, like Bolt in red, will become an auto 4-of in every modern deck that plays black.
In fact, it has already joined that most elite company of Modern cards: those that you splash a color just so you can play it. Bolt, Goyf and now Push.