If they're representing removal then hold your crab until turn two and get six cards out of it with a fetchland. The solution is not to take them out completely, they're one of the best cards in the deck.
K, e'erbody. I took a break and went back to playing Infect for a while. I'm back on the mill train with a vengeance.
First off, I am super-hyped as to all the different ideas floating around, all of which seem to be working in their own accord. I'd like to try and draw some common ground (kinda re-draw OP's vision based on today's stuff) so we can build from that.
1) Aggro is the most difficult thing for us. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't already know. Infect and go wide strategies are powerful against us. They need to be dealt with. The great debate on this seems to be between Ghostly Prison and Ensnaring Bridge as well as the inclination towards spot removal we should have mainboarded.
2) We have some pretty nifty toys that straight up hose some decks. Surgical Extraction being at the top of the list. They are nice to have mainboarded to just buy game one, but likely should mostly reside in the side.
3) We need to stay pretty aggro on the mill plan, but there are a lot of shades of gray to be considered. Whether or not to include Mesmeric Orb seems pretty critical on this point.
4) We are often finding ourselves in topdeck mode. So "does this as a topdeck in a critical moment help me or not" is super relevant. I think this lends itself toward validating Visions of Beyond as a 4-of more than anything.
5) Archive Trap can be finicky if not played around. That said, it's still our biggest gun.
6) Dredge is a cruel joke. They bash our face. Must be sided against if you remotely expect to see it at a tournament.
Would like to see on the basic cards we can all agree upon and go from there. My humble non-land card suggestion on a common core:
I recently switched it up to just a UB list after seeing some other people's lists on here. The only real reasons for white were Path to Exile and Hide // Seek (for me), and Ghostly Prison for some others. I think Victim of Night and Go for the Throat are sufficient fill-ins for Path, and I'm running Sadistic Sacrament in the board to hopefully handle Emrakul issues. The less painful manabase really helps, and it also allows me to run Ghost Quarters that I wasn't previously due to colour fixing issues.
To address Greg's points:
1) Aggro is a weak point. Ghostly Prison is best against infect, because their pump spells allow their creatures to get under an Ensnaring Bridge. Otherwise, I prefer Ensnaring bridge - if someone's got a Reality Smasher, they're probably happy to pay 2 for it to get through. With the low casting cost of most of our cards, we can drop our hand pretty low.
I've tried a couple things against standard aggro (burn, creatures) in addition to 2 maindeck Crypt Incursion. I have 2 Profane Memento in the sideboard, which helps out a lot. Often it tacks on a "Gain 3 life" to the end of a Glimpse the Unthinkable, and all your other mill cards. Combine that with a Mesmeric Orb and it happens pretty regularly. For 1 mana, it's as good or better play T1 than Hedron Crab. I'm also running 2 Darkness, which covers infect damage too.
2) I've never had a Surgical Extraction in my hand and been lacking a target I wanted to hit. It's super-powered in a mill deck because you see way more options in opponent's graveyard than most decks do. I mainboard 2 but would even consider going up to 3. Good decks usually run multiples of good cards, so removing all of one threat (Bolts? Goyfs? Trons? Ad Nauseams?) from a deck can be big.
3) I'm liking the Mesmeric Orb more lately, but you're right, it needs to be in a more controlling shell. Towards that end, I'm running 2 Inquisition of Kozilek to disrupt their hand, 2 spot removal (1 Victim of Night, 1 Go for the Throat), and 2 Damnation. Other perks about the Mesmeric Orbs are having way more targets for Snapcaster Mage (so I don't need to draw my Go for the Throat, as long as Orb mills it for me, it becomes accessible), and also the double-synergy with Set Adrift; gives me cards to delve to pay for it, puts it on top of opponent's library, and Orb mills it at the start of their next turn. But it's definitely a bit of a different play philosophy when you're running it.
4) Visions of Beyond is definitely a 4-of. It becomes Ancestral Recall by the time we want to cast it - I think every blue deck would run a playset of Ancestral Recall if it was allowed. Some have talked about the non-bo with Ensnaring Bridge, but the average CMC of this deck lends it to be able to deplete your hand pretty quick. Also, if having the bridge at a certain value is important to stop attacks... well, don't cast the Visions!
5) Archive Trap is a big hitter. I've actually ended up hard-casting it a few times to close the game out when it works. It's a 4-of because it hits so hard, and you almost always want it in your opener, and you're happy to see multiples usually. In UB it lacks path to activate it, but because the manabase is better, I slid in 2 Ghost Quarter which also turns it on.
6) Dredge is always a blowout, but 50% of the time it seems to be me blowing them out. Surgical Extraction is important here, and for G1, you gotta let them mill the first 1/3 of their deck before you drop your mill spells and clue them in to our strategy. If they see you trying to mill them out, they'll stop milling themselves and make your job harder. The key is to get em by surprise whenever possible for G1.
Here's my deck at the moment, and some thoughts on it.
I like fetchlands for the Crabs, but I think Marsh Flats and Flooded Strand might be a bit overkill, given how valuable our life total is. They're great when you have a crab, but he's often being taken out by creature removal, being one of the only creatures in the deck. I might leave 1 Flooded Strand in, but go to another swamp and island. Also not totally sold on the need for Sunken Ruins here - I'll probably keep one (vanity since it's an expedition land :P) but cut the other. Perhaps another Darkslick Shores, but could also try out another Shelldock Isle.
With Mesmeric Orb, you try to control the game and slow it down more to let the orb do it's job. If you're running Orb, Snapcaster becomes a lot better too.
I'm often underwhelmed with Mind Funeral for 3 mana - I might try subbing some or all of them out in favour of more disruption (More IoK? Spell Snare? More spot removal?) and seeing if Mesmeric Orb can handle the milling out duties on their own. Another thought for them is to replace them with Breaking // Entering, to reduce CMC more. I think I like Mind Funeral better than Breaking, but I haven't tried it yet.
I currently have what I would consider extra slots in the sideboard (probably don't need the third IoK or Surgical in there). I've thought of replacing them with more spot removal (perhaps even Murderous Cut, though it's not usually available early game which is when you'd want it). The other potential for me is Spellskite (should've thought of this earlier) as it totally hoses infect, and a 0/4 blocker for 2 is useful against a lot of other creature decks.
So, I'm not sure if I'm being an idiot here, but has anyone ever considered siding Kiora's Dismissal against Leyline of Sanctity or other enchantments? I get it's only a bounce and not a permanent answer, but food for thought.
The biggest enchantment issues I've had are Blood Moon and Leyline, and they really suck. Mesmeric Orb gets around both which is part of the reason I went to it. Kiora's dismissal is great and cheap, but like you said, just a temporary solution, and it's pretty narrow. Set Adrift does it way better (lets the Orb mill it off the top), and also handles things like Planswalkers that we have trouble with and should be playable T4 or T5 when those enchantments would come down anyway. I run 2 in my sideboard, but thinking about a third.
MoBo War... There is a poster who is playing this combo if you go back like 5-10 pages or so and you can take a look at his list or priavte message him. He sounds like he's play tested the combo.
I was able to find a UB mill list that top 64'd a Grand Prix in Japan (900+ entrants) back in August of this year and it is basically a clone of the grand prix LA list except he cut 4 Manic Scribe for 3 Ashiok and 1 Startled Awake. His sideboard was: 3 extirpate, 3 drown in sorrow, 4 leyline of the void, 2 grafdigger cage, 3 set adrift. A lot of people, myself included keep holding on to the esper version, yet every time I read about the deck going 5-0 in a league or putting up results in a big tournament it is always UB and it always has Jace's Phantasm and Ensnaring Bridge main deck. I always thought Ashiok was too slow but maybe the bridge is what makes him viable. The thought of stealing a Jund player's Tarmogoyf and then bashing him in the face with it makes me happy. The startled Awake is a nice mana sink as well. No main deck removal so any deck that kills you with pump spells is basically a loss game 1.
I was watching the toplevel podcast with Chapin and Flroes today and he was talking about sideboards and how if you dedicate 8+ cards to a bad matchup and you only win 70% of games 2 and 3 you are still going to lose more often than win (.7 x .7 = 49%) and going 2-1 means absolutely nothing. They go on to say if you are going to dedicate a lot of hate the matchup needs to be like 85 or 90+% to consider doing this. After listening to this it just made me think that it is probably correct to punt these infect matchups and use our slots for something we can win like dredge and go wide aggro strategies. On the other hand, if you're going to play to beat infect we probably need cards to get us up to that level like spellskite and Night of Souls' Betrayl.
Random thoughts... Surgical is better than Leyline vs dredge and its not close. I would prefer Ravenous Trap over Leyline even but the surgical effects have a lot of value and I could see myself just cutting Leylines for more extraction to open up more space on my sideboard. Also, every dredge deck is boarding in Natural State and milling to 5 or whatever just to have your leyline die on turn 1 is pretty awful or they just keep casting cathartic / faithless looting to find an answer. Having 2 surgicals for bloodghast and Narcomeba basically shuts the dredge game down. If you only have 1 surgical you can always wait for Prized Amalgam which is a big blow.
SkyLagger and anyone else who is willing to try a new card, I have a great one... Gemstone Caverns! This land has been amazing the few times I have gotten it on the draw and it hasn't affected me in casting stuff on the play or after the initial 7 etc... I suggest everyone to run it as a 1 of. I'm going to test 2+ copies but it will probably be too greedy.
As for your points Greg my opinions are...
1- If you read above I'm to the point where we have to choose one or the other based on the meta. All of the lists I've seen online have chosen to combat the go wide plan with cards like Profane Memento or Drown in Sorrow. I've had the same horror stories with Bridge as everyone else on here but this card keeps showing up on winning lists. It offers hate to decks like Goryo's Vengence, Emrakul, Valakut decks with Primeval Titan, Death Shadow (probably too slow haven't tested), Bant Eldrazi... We don't really have any cards that attack those matchups. We just kind of hope to win before they kill us.
2- If they ever unban Birthing Pod or Splinter Twin or both I think it's an easy add to the mainboard but I agree with you and others that it probably should be in the sideboard. I think the addition of either of these decks would help our meta game a lot but what do I know...
3- Mesmeric Orb has been pretty good for me. I like it a lot.
4- Every list I've seen runs Visions as a 4 of no exception. Sometimes you cast it in the early game to hit a land drop or whatever but yea... Ancestral Recall is pretty good.
5- Every list runs it as a 4 of no exception. I'm probably wrong here but will try testing without them.
6- I think this is a matchup we can win or be heavily favored if we sideboard for it with extraction effects. See random thoughts above.
Hey MoBo! I also thought this was a good package to side in, but ended up making a completely separate deck that runs it and is completely centred around getting it in play and active. Once the combo is done, it makes no difference whether you cast that Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier in the game. I think jamming the combo in here doesn't really help us. There's also a dedicated thread on the combo if you search the forums, with some decent ideas in it!
My list that does run the combo uses a bunch of counter magic and disruption (IoK and Thoughtseize also both activate the combo, as well as Ghost Quarter) to slow their game down, and Muddle the Mixture to tutor for either combo piece. Aether Vials allow you a turn 3 kill if you have the nuts (T1 Vial, T2 Mindcrank, T3 Vial + Guildmage in response to them playing a spell), and Spellskite also protects both of your combo pieces from destruction.
I was a bit upset with the deck last week after many months of testing and I challenged myself: "do this **** mill deck work before the end of the week or leave it for good and stop spending hours testing new stuff!".
I gave serious thoughts to the kind of deck Mill is:
- It is not Aggro, as we are ALWAYS a turn slower if we play "Aggro Mill". Lightning Bolt is 1/6 of your opponents' lifepoints for 1 mana (we will consider that most of the decks will fetch or play Ravlands), whereas Glimpse sure is 1/5 of your opponents' library but for 2 mana ! (as the game will at least last 4 turns + 7 cards in opening hand)
- It is not a Combo deck, as 4 Trap, 4 Glimpse, 4 Crabs and 2 Funerals are 14 cards total (which is more than other combo decks need to win).
- It is not a Control deck, as our late game is awful because we lack of counterspells and we do not have Celestial Colonnade, Planeswalkers of huge creatures to win with.
IMHO, the deck is Midrange and cannot be something else. So I took the list of the best Midrange deck of the Modern Meta, Jund/Junk, and tried to "copy" the decks.
Here is the list I came up with:
I have never tried Path, Phantasm AND Inquisition altogether... but I was in a kind of "last resort" mood.
I bought the cards on MTGO with the idea of selling them back after a week or so of testing.
Here are the results:
Losses: 2x Grixis Control; Eternal Command (Missplay); Elves; UBw Control; 2x U Tron; 8 Rack; Nahiri Control; Soul Sisters (Missplay); Nava Burn; Storm (Missplay); Abzan Company; Bring to Ad Nauseam; Token Homebrew.
Wins: Jund; Thopter Combo; 2x Valakut (a guy wished me to get AIDS XD); UW Control; Mono Green Stompy; Affinity; Death & Taxes; Mono Black Zombies; Unidentified Homebrew; GW Tron; Jeskai Ascendancy; Bring to Scapeshift; 2x Kiki Chord; Grixis Control; Budget Bogles.
Before I go further into the detail, it is a bit more of 50% of winning... which answer to the question "is Mill competitive?".
I made several missplays due to MTGO (Surgical Extractions are weird there, as they don't automatically remove the card your targeted in the graveyard.) or just because I suck. (-_-"
Although I am happy with the results, I can't say that they totally match the real field, as players were expecting Dredge and had tons of Grave-hate (say goodbye to Visions of Beyond) and as I moslty encoutered Control players. Control matchup are meh... if they play counterspells, it is tough. If not, it is fine.
Here are some thoughts:
1) I quickly replaced Jace by 2 Snapcaster, as Jace was ALWAYS eating a Bolt, a Path or anything my opponents could throw on him.
2) I keep having lands issue. I tried again, after completing the tests, with 23, 22 and 21 lands, and I have a HUGE proportion of games where I am stuck with 1 or two lands and games I am flooded with 7 & more lands. That just kills me. My record was Turn 8 with 8 lands of the field and 3 in hand.
3) Snapcaster Mage is awesome late game. With this list, I have a lot of early disruption, and i quickly run out of gas. Snapcaster helps me flashing back Visions of Beyon or a mill spell. It was sooooo hepful in the Control Match up !
I am stil not entirely convinced though. It doesn't do anything turn 1-4. But players tend to take it over mill spells with hand disruption, so I guess I'm okay with that.
4) Inquisitions shone in the Aggro and Combo match up, but are so lame against Control... Although they help stabilising the field early game, they are an awful topdeck. I tried with 3, but could not have them when I needed them. So I guess it is 4 or nothing.
5) I HATE Mind Funeral. I am still torn between lowering my curve (and playing with 21 lands) and playing Breaking instead and keeping it. I casted Mind Funeral 26 time, and milled 11,4 cards average. But these results include the few times I got 18 & more cards with it. Most of the time it was only 9-10 cards, and I even got 4 when I needed 5 cards more in the graveyard to cast my Visions of Beyond.
So, 11 cards average fore 3 mana, is it worth it ? Maybe as a single ?
6) I made a few more games switching the Inquisitions for Serum Visions, and my scores are about the same. I think I tend to prefer Serum Visions as they help me keeping one landers or color lacking opening hands. They are also a better topdeck late game than Inquisition. I prefer trying to find really helpfull answers than trying to stall the game.
When I played Inquisition, I lost many games when my opponents had only 5-6 cards in their library. We were both topdecking and hoping for a solution. 2/3rd of the time, they found one before me.
7) I love Ghost Quartes against Infect and Tron (even if they are not that awesome with the latter), but I wonder if a basic Plains would not be better. I often wanted to cast a Path and could not because fetching would be lethal or would have taken me to Bolt range. The deck cannot afford playing 2 Ghost Quarters and 1 Plains.
8) I lost the count to a certain point, so it is not totally accurate, but I mulliganed almost 50% of the time... wich is pretty bad for a deck that tends to run out of threats quickly.
Sorry for this long post, but I wanted to share the results of my week of vacation and try to improve the deck with you guys. Sorry too for the mistakes, but I do not have the time to read again this loooong post correct it. i hope it is understandable.
Give me ideas so I can try them out before I sell the cards back !
Thanks for the detailed testing!!!
I question the use of white in this deck, as the only thing you are using it for is Path to Exile. I don't even know if it's better than something like Murderous Cut (given you're running Mesmeric Orb) or Go for the Throat, as they don't ramp your opponent into land. I also keep my deck to 21 land, and I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like at 20 instead.
I am TOTALLY feeling your frustration on Mind Funeral. Like, it should be good, but at 3 mana... I'd almost rather the 2 mana for Breaking and guaranteed 8 cards. In combo with a Glimpse or an Archive Trap, it should get your opponent to 20 cards in the library for Visions of Beyond activation. I worry a little bit about the top end, but there's been too many games where I cast Mind Funeral and have to hope they have less than 4 lands in their library.
I still have my hesitations about Jace's Phantasm. But a 5/5 flying blocker is never bad, my only hesitation is cutting good spells for creatures when we have so few creatures - it essentially makes our opponent have a lot of dead cards in their creature removal if we keep our creature count low. I keep 2 in my sideboard and bring them in against creature based decks.
Snapcaster is awesome, period. Our spells are all pretty low mana cost, Mesmeric Orb puts a ton of options in our graveyard, and we get to choose the best one when required. I've also used him as a flash-blocker to save my butt a few times. I roll 4.
Inquisition is awesome early and not so awesome late game, I agree. But I think Serum Visions isn't very good in the mainboard, there's no real silver bullet spell we are looking for usually.
I'm going to a shop tournament tonight and planning to play my mill deck, so we'll see what the meta holds! Will post a report tonight or tomorrow.
If you have a horrible matchup like infect where game 1 is basically an auto loss like with the GP LA ub mill deck that has no spot removal main deck. If he were to go heavy sideboarding to beat infect and made the matchup 70% in his favor he would only win both games 2 and 3 49% so he would still lose the match half the time. The podcast (most recent one) then goes on to talk about how good you need to make the matchup after sideboard in order to overcome a horrible game 1 matchup and they come up with like 85%+ which would win you the match 72+% of the time (.85 x .85). When playing cards like glimpse the unthinkable, archive trap, mesmeric orb, and hedron crab I don't think it is possible to get our infect matchup up to 85+% post sideboard. I've played the Esper version and 4 main deck Paths isn't enough. We need more spot removals and even then I don't think it is enough. I honestly think we need Night of Souls' Betrayl and Darkblast together. Therefore, I think the matchup isn't worth adding sideboard cards to and should be ignored and our best strategy would be to hope to dodge that deck/archtype (infect, kiln fiend). That's why the Grand Prix LA deck has zero cards that impact the infect matchup. He came to the realization that even if he added 3 Darkblasts that they were wasting sideboard slots because even though it improved his matchup he didn't consistently beat infect 2 games in a row for the Darkblasts to be worth valuable sideboard slots... At least that's what I'm thinking... Our deck isn't tier 1 we need to get lucky if we are to make a deep run at a tournament...
I'm trying Bridge again after swearing it off because every mill list that gets posted has it. It sucks against some decks but also gives us easy wins against decks we don't have answers to other wise like Goryo's Vengence, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, any deck with Emrakul. It can save us from Primeval Titan or other fatties.
As of now I'm going to try running this deck that finished top 64. I can't find his matchups so I don't know how lucky his draws were. On a side note, I also want to try and figure out how important Archive Trap is and how much worse the deck gets without it because it has sat as a dead card in my hand more times than I'd like to admit.
Everyone was playing spellbomb in pages back because Jeskai Nahiri was breaking out and Nahiri would just kill Rest in Peace before getting Emrakul. That deck has fallen out of favor with Dredge and other fast decks becoming more popular.
On a side note... Yahenni's Expertise looks kinda sweet for us... 2BB: All creatures get -3/-3; then cast a spell that costs 3 or less for free... Basically a collected company for control decks
If you're playing Esper then Engineered Explosives should be somewhere in your 75. You can probably run it main deck because it is so good in so many matchups.
Timba has been a big fan of Disfigure... It hits most all problem creatures (eidolon, nacatl (Turn 1), goblin guide, infect creatures, kiln fiend, steel overseer, etc...). It isn't a clean answer to everything. Dismember seems like the next best option. Maybe a 2/2 split? If you go to 2 mana Victim of the Night hits pretty much everything but BB may be too hard to cast. Doom Blade is good vs everything except Kalitas and Death Shadow.
Ensnaring Bridge will want 23 lands minimum. I think I'm going to 24 to be honest. Doing some practice goldfishing, 24 has seemed better. I've offset the possibility of flooding by adding more fetches. Here is the probability for each number by turn 3:
23 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the play) - 75.5%
23 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the draw) - 82.8%
24 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the play) - 78.9%
24 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the draw) - 85.6%
I just googled black and blue cards that dealt with enchantments in modern for like 20 minutes and all I could find was imprisoned by the moon which would turn their leyline into a colorless land. Set Adrift seems to be the only viable option.
Collective Brutality is in every good modern deck that plays black. I feel like we should be doing the same. It acts as discard, acts as removal, and even the life gain is relevant vs burn all rolled into one card. It even synergizes with our bridge. Maybe this is the removal spell we are looking for in UB.
You still need to experience the awesomeness of having Gemstone Caverns on the draw.
Long-time kitchen table casual here (bought my first starter deck as an elementary school kiddo during 5th edition and have been playing on and off since then) who is looking to get into the Modern scene by way of Esper Mill. I've done a lot of research, for which this thread has been invaluable, as well as playtesting, and think I have a pretty good grasp on things. For now, I'll keep my focus on creature options. Here's what I've found:
Hedron Crab: Can't imagine anything less than a mandatory 4-of. Synergy with fetchlands is ungodly.
Augur of Bolas: I went into playtesting expecting this guy to be an all-star, but I'm actually not a fan. Early on, I want to be drawing into lands, creatures, and cards like Mesmeric Orb or Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge. Augur weeds those early game engines out in favor of removal (usually nice), milling spells (never bad, but would rather draw into them midgame), or--worst case scenario--nothing. I can only recommend Augur in a U/B milling deck loaded down with milling spells that plays like burn.
Jace's Phantasm: A 5/5 flyer for U is unreal, but with our creature tally on the low side, most decks I've faced are usually sitting on spot removal, so Phantasm often gets blown away without doing anything. Which leads me to...
Manic Scribe: Underwhelming on paper, at least to me, but the more I test this lunatic the better he seems. If Orbs are a 3-4 slot in your deck, Delirium is active a surprising amount of the time. At worst, he's DoA like the Phantasm, in which case he at least milled 3 before an ignominious end.
Right now, my ideal creature spread is 4 Crabs and 3 Scribes, with 3 Phantasms in the sideboard. I get more bodies on the field via 2 Lingering Souls and a Timely Reinforcements as well.
Haven't tested Snapcaster Mage as I don't own any, and his mechanics seem a little too mana intensive for the way this deck plays. And then there are the walls to consider--Wall of Omens and Wall of Shards have potential, while Wall of Denial probably doesn't do enough, cool though it is.
Anything I've missed out on or gotten horribly wrong?
I played a few rounds with 4 copies of Collective Brutality and Brutality into Ensnaring Bridge was quite the combo. The combo basically won vs Jund by stripping an Abrupt Decay, killing his Confidant and then discarded 2 lands in my 5 card hand of 4 lands and 1 bridge. Next turn he slammed grim flayer and Goyf and I played my bridge with 2 cards in hand and then next turn I had zero, felt good. If I didn't have Brutality I would have played Bridge with 4 lands in hand and taken 10 damage. If I topdeck a land then I lose and then I would probably have been whining about Ensnaring Bridge on this post. I may have still gotten there but the 2 discard outlet felt very relevant. I top decked a Brutality later which dealt with an annoying Grim Lavamancer later in the match, the card was very solid in this match. I ended up 2-0 vs Jund, which never happens. My other matchups were against decks that just didn't care about the card like Bogles so I still need to play it more.
If you're running Esper I don't think it's better than Path and I don't know if you want to have 6-8 spot removal spells in the mainboard. I may just run UB replacing Path with Brutality and finding a way to run Bridge main deck. Something like: 2-4 Brutality, 3 Bridge, 3-4 Visions, 2-3 Crypt, 3-4 Phantasm. That would leave me with 20-23 mill cards. I want more Glimpse spells at 2 mana so I'm going to try and add a couple Breakings for more consistency int he early game to turn on Jace and Visions. I'll Try to play a bunch of rounds and see how the cards/variation performs.
Ashiok with Bridge protection is basically game over. This combo is a clean answer to Emrakul game 1.
SavageGaul... As for the creature choice I agree that Scribe is better than Augur and should be played over him at all times. I can't comment on Snap because I don't own or play him, quite a few posters do like him though. Everyone loves Hedron Crab so you won't get any arguments there. As for the walls... The problem with the Walls is you actually have to cut cards in the deck that are better than them for our deck (in my opinion). What card(s) would you cut for them?
SavageGaul... As for the creature choice I agree that Scribe is better than Augur and should be played over him at all times. I can't comment on Snap because I don't own or play him, quite a few posters do like him though. Everyone loves Hedron Crab so you won't get any arguments there. As for the walls... The problem with the Walls is you actually have to cut cards in the deck that are better than them for our deck (in my opinion). What card(s) would you cut for them?
Thanks for the battle reports, brother. Collective Brutality is a monstrous card; definitely interested to see how we can fit it into the milling archetype. Two minor synergies that spring to mind: 1) discarding Lingering Souls and still getting the flashback, and 2) ditching certain card types to trigger Scribe's delerium.
I agree with your assessment of the fringe creatures--sure, they fit, but at what expense? When you frame it that way, only Wall of Omens seems to potentially merit a slot. It actually seems to compare favorably to Augur, come to think of it. 0/4 > 1/3 in our deck, and I'd rather have the straight draw than Augur's conditional draw. 1W is a bit harder to cast than 1U, maybe, but that shouldn't often factor in.
Good points, Sky, especially in regards to Phantasm. I've actually won before via aggro on turn 4 thanks to the card: T1 Phantasm, T2 Glimpse and swing for 5, T3 Phantasm, Path to remove a blocker, swing for 5, T4 swing for 10 and GG. Phantasm certainly merits a spot relative to most other creature options we have--I guess what I'm not sure about is whether it beats out Manic Scribe in a deck with few creature slots. Here's my current maindeck for reference:
I love Phantasm, but what to drop? The deck feels very well-rounded as is.
Oh, another question for anyone with experience against Affinity: what's the verdict on Hurkyl's Recall vs. Stony Silence for anti-artifact sideboard tech? Should an Esper player run both?
Actually, I have ran for a time a list similar to yours. My results (and I insist on this, as if I had a perfect list, I won't be posting on this section of the forum but winning Grand Prix ! ) with it were average.
Ghostly Prison can be great, but it is very narrow. I doesn't affect decks that attack with only 1 or 2 big creatures (but you have Path for them); it just slows down opponents' game plan but don't put an end to it; and it can only be cast turn 3, which is often too late against the decks you are targeting with Prison (Affinity, Burn, Goblins, Infect). An empty handed Jund player will be more than happy to pay 2 and swing with a huge Tarmo, and so does the Tron player, and the list goes on.
So, as some people here, I placed great hopes in Ghostly Prison but have been disappointed.
Huh, interesting. Prison and Incursion have been the absolute MVPs for me in playtesting this far. My group must have more tribal aggro/go wide presence than usual. Still haven't been to a Modern tourney, so I'll certainly defer to your experience there.
With all that in mind, is it safe to say that we should run either Prison or Bridge in the maindeck and the other in the sideboard, switching out as needed? Or can mill get away with neither in the maindeck?
Surgical Extraction main deck is a matter of metagame. If you expect more Combo and Control decks than Aggro ones, go for it. I miss them when I don't have them main, and hate them when I have them main deck because they just sit in my hand and do nothing. In the end, this is really up to you.
100% agree. I actually have Extraction sided for most games, but the list provided is what I'd take to a tourney if I went without knowing the meta. Without much knowledge of what to expect, Extraction maindeck makes sense to me.
Phantasm is IMHO better than Lingering Souls: it does not only chump but actually kills threats, and you don't spend the entire turn casting it. Most of all, you run 4 important cards with white cost, and it forces you to hurt yourself with your lands and eposes you a little bit more to Blood Moon.
Why Verdict (which can be hard to cast in this deck) over Damnation ?
Budget reasons, mostly. $6 Verdict vs $70 Damnation! Do you find Damnation's regen hate more broadly effective than the uncounterable Verdict, or is it just the slightly easier casting cost you prefer?
Affinity is a complicated Match Up, as they don't fetch. Stony Silence vs Hurkyl's Recall is the same debate than Ghostly Prison vs Bridge. I prefer Stony Silence, because it is not as narrow as Recall (hits pretty hard Tron, Lantern, Thopter, and sometimes Vials decks) and it doesn't only buy you a couple of turns.
Makes sense to me. Thanks for a thorough response!
...with 2 Thought Scours in place of the Surgical Extractions. The Extractions were sideboarded alongside 1 Extirpate, 1 Darkness, 1 Mind Funeral, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Profane Memento, 2 Stony Silence, 2 Disenchant, and 3 Phantasm. Just need to acquire 2x Rest In Peace and I'll have my sideboard finished, unless I'm prepared to invest in expensive options like Damnation or Engineered Explosives. Am I missing anything?
Faced a wide range of decks, but nothing necessarily top tier. Merfolk, mono-red Krenko Goblins, and Boros Vehicles were probably the best opposition, but I also faced Legacy Slivers, Rakdos Vampires, and an interesting mono-black homebrew involving Skirsdag High Priest, Disciple of Bolas, and a fair amount of Zombies.
Won every single matchup (including some repeats), and most were 2-0. Everyone wanted to crack the milling deck open, but there was an answer available for just about everything. I don't see how tribal aggro/go wide decks can compete against Memento, Orb, Prison, and Incursion.
Feeling great about this setup; learning my limits in regard to taking damage from fetch and shock lands. Definitely chomping at the bit to get into a real Modern tourney and see how it does. The closest one is over an hour's drive away, but they get a great turnout. Decisions...
And apparently I've changed my name: Ugh
First off, I am super-hyped as to all the different ideas floating around, all of which seem to be working in their own accord. I'd like to try and draw some common ground (kinda re-draw OP's vision based on today's stuff) so we can build from that.
1) Aggro is the most difficult thing for us. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't already know. Infect and go wide strategies are powerful against us. They need to be dealt with. The great debate on this seems to be between Ghostly Prison and Ensnaring Bridge as well as the inclination towards spot removal we should have mainboarded.
2) We have some pretty nifty toys that straight up hose some decks. Surgical Extraction being at the top of the list. They are nice to have mainboarded to just buy game one, but likely should mostly reside in the side.
3) We need to stay pretty aggro on the mill plan, but there are a lot of shades of gray to be considered. Whether or not to include Mesmeric Orb seems pretty critical on this point.
4) We are often finding ourselves in topdeck mode. So "does this as a topdeck in a critical moment help me or not" is super relevant. I think this lends itself toward validating Visions of Beyond as a 4-of more than anything.
5) Archive Trap can be finicky if not played around. That said, it's still our biggest gun.
6) Dredge is a cruel joke. They bash our face. Must be sided against if you remotely expect to see it at a tournament.
Would like to see on the basic cards we can all agree upon and go from there. My humble non-land card suggestion on a common core:
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Hedron Crab
2 Crypt Incursion
Then a lot of if/or options. That seem like a reasonable place to begin? Discuss.
I recently switched it up to just a UB list after seeing some other people's lists on here. The only real reasons for white were Path to Exile and Hide // Seek (for me), and Ghostly Prison for some others. I think Victim of Night and Go for the Throat are sufficient fill-ins for Path, and I'm running Sadistic Sacrament in the board to hopefully handle Emrakul issues. The less painful manabase really helps, and it also allows me to run Ghost Quarters that I wasn't previously due to colour fixing issues.
To address Greg's points:
1) Aggro is a weak point. Ghostly Prison is best against infect, because their pump spells allow their creatures to get under an Ensnaring Bridge. Otherwise, I prefer Ensnaring bridge - if someone's got a Reality Smasher, they're probably happy to pay 2 for it to get through. With the low casting cost of most of our cards, we can drop our hand pretty low.
I've tried a couple things against standard aggro (burn, creatures) in addition to 2 maindeck Crypt Incursion. I have 2 Profane Memento in the sideboard, which helps out a lot. Often it tacks on a "Gain 3 life" to the end of a Glimpse the Unthinkable, and all your other mill cards. Combine that with a Mesmeric Orb and it happens pretty regularly. For 1 mana, it's as good or better play T1 than Hedron Crab. I'm also running 2 Darkness, which covers infect damage too.
2) I've never had a Surgical Extraction in my hand and been lacking a target I wanted to hit. It's super-powered in a mill deck because you see way more options in opponent's graveyard than most decks do. I mainboard 2 but would even consider going up to 3. Good decks usually run multiples of good cards, so removing all of one threat (Bolts? Goyfs? Trons? Ad Nauseams?) from a deck can be big.
3) I'm liking the Mesmeric Orb more lately, but you're right, it needs to be in a more controlling shell. Towards that end, I'm running 2 Inquisition of Kozilek to disrupt their hand, 2 spot removal (1 Victim of Night, 1 Go for the Throat), and 2 Damnation. Other perks about the Mesmeric Orbs are having way more targets for Snapcaster Mage (so I don't need to draw my Go for the Throat, as long as Orb mills it for me, it becomes accessible), and also the double-synergy with Set Adrift; gives me cards to delve to pay for it, puts it on top of opponent's library, and Orb mills it at the start of their next turn. But it's definitely a bit of a different play philosophy when you're running it.
4) Visions of Beyond is definitely a 4-of. It becomes Ancestral Recall by the time we want to cast it - I think every blue deck would run a playset of Ancestral Recall if it was allowed. Some have talked about the non-bo with Ensnaring Bridge, but the average CMC of this deck lends it to be able to deplete your hand pretty quick. Also, if having the bridge at a certain value is important to stop attacks... well, don't cast the Visions!
5) Archive Trap is a big hitter. I've actually ended up hard-casting it a few times to close the game out when it works. It's a 4-of because it hits so hard, and you almost always want it in your opener, and you're happy to see multiples usually. In UB it lacks path to activate it, but because the manabase is better, I slid in 2 Ghost Quarter which also turns it on.
6) Dredge is always a blowout, but 50% of the time it seems to be me blowing them out. Surgical Extraction is important here, and for G1, you gotta let them mill the first 1/3 of their deck before you drop your mill spells and clue them in to our strategy. If they see you trying to mill them out, they'll stop milling themselves and make your job harder. The key is to get em by surprise whenever possible for G1.
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Watery Grave
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mind Funeral
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Damnation
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
Here's my deck at the moment, and some thoughts on it.
I like fetchlands for the Crabs, but I think Marsh Flats and Flooded Strand might be a bit overkill, given how valuable our life total is. They're great when you have a crab, but he's often being taken out by creature removal, being one of the only creatures in the deck. I might leave 1 Flooded Strand in, but go to another swamp and island. Also not totally sold on the need for Sunken Ruins here - I'll probably keep one (vanity since it's an expedition land :P) but cut the other. Perhaps another Darkslick Shores, but could also try out another Shelldock Isle.
With Mesmeric Orb, you try to control the game and slow it down more to let the orb do it's job. If you're running Orb, Snapcaster becomes a lot better too.
I'm often underwhelmed with Mind Funeral for 3 mana - I might try subbing some or all of them out in favour of more disruption (More IoK? Spell Snare? More spot removal?) and seeing if Mesmeric Orb can handle the milling out duties on their own. Another thought for them is to replace them with Breaking // Entering, to reduce CMC more. I think I like Mind Funeral better than Breaking, but I haven't tried it yet.
I currently have what I would consider extra slots in the sideboard (probably don't need the third IoK or Surgical in there). I've thought of replacing them with more spot removal (perhaps even Murderous Cut, though it's not usually available early game which is when you'd want it). The other potential for me is Spellskite (should've thought of this earlier) as it totally hoses infect, and a 0/4 blocker for 2 is useful against a lot of other creature decks.
I was able to find a UB mill list that top 64'd a Grand Prix in Japan (900+ entrants) back in August of this year and it is basically a clone of the grand prix LA list except he cut 4 Manic Scribe for 3 Ashiok and 1 Startled Awake. His sideboard was: 3 extirpate, 3 drown in sorrow, 4 leyline of the void, 2 grafdigger cage, 3 set adrift. A lot of people, myself included keep holding on to the esper version, yet every time I read about the deck going 5-0 in a league or putting up results in a big tournament it is always UB and it always has Jace's Phantasm and Ensnaring Bridge main deck. I always thought Ashiok was too slow but maybe the bridge is what makes him viable. The thought of stealing a Jund player's Tarmogoyf and then bashing him in the face with it makes me happy. The startled Awake is a nice mana sink as well. No main deck removal so any deck that kills you with pump spells is basically a loss game 1.
I was watching the toplevel podcast with Chapin and Flroes today and he was talking about sideboards and how if you dedicate 8+ cards to a bad matchup and you only win 70% of games 2 and 3 you are still going to lose more often than win (.7 x .7 = 49%) and going 2-1 means absolutely nothing. They go on to say if you are going to dedicate a lot of hate the matchup needs to be like 85 or 90+% to consider doing this. After listening to this it just made me think that it is probably correct to punt these infect matchups and use our slots for something we can win like dredge and go wide aggro strategies. On the other hand, if you're going to play to beat infect we probably need cards to get us up to that level like spellskite and Night of Souls' Betrayl.
Random thoughts... Surgical is better than Leyline vs dredge and its not close. I would prefer Ravenous Trap over Leyline even but the surgical effects have a lot of value and I could see myself just cutting Leylines for more extraction to open up more space on my sideboard. Also, every dredge deck is boarding in Natural State and milling to 5 or whatever just to have your leyline die on turn 1 is pretty awful or they just keep casting cathartic / faithless looting to find an answer. Having 2 surgicals for bloodghast and Narcomeba basically shuts the dredge game down. If you only have 1 surgical you can always wait for Prized Amalgam which is a big blow.
SkyLagger and anyone else who is willing to try a new card, I have a great one... Gemstone Caverns! This land has been amazing the few times I have gotten it on the draw and it hasn't affected me in casting stuff on the play or after the initial 7 etc... I suggest everyone to run it as a 1 of. I'm going to test 2+ copies but it will probably be too greedy.
As for your points Greg my opinions are...
1- If you read above I'm to the point where we have to choose one or the other based on the meta. All of the lists I've seen online have chosen to combat the go wide plan with cards like Profane Memento or Drown in Sorrow. I've had the same horror stories with Bridge as everyone else on here but this card keeps showing up on winning lists. It offers hate to decks like Goryo's Vengence, Emrakul, Valakut decks with Primeval Titan, Death Shadow (probably too slow haven't tested), Bant Eldrazi... We don't really have any cards that attack those matchups. We just kind of hope to win before they kill us.
2- If they ever unban Birthing Pod or Splinter Twin or both I think it's an easy add to the mainboard but I agree with you and others that it probably should be in the sideboard. I think the addition of either of these decks would help our meta game a lot but what do I know...
3- Mesmeric Orb has been pretty good for me. I like it a lot.
4- Every list I've seen runs Visions as a 4 of no exception. Sometimes you cast it in the early game to hit a land drop or whatever but yea... Ancestral Recall is pretty good.
5- Every list runs it as a 4 of no exception. I'm probably wrong here but will try testing without them.
6- I think this is a matchup we can win or be heavily favored if we sideboard for it with extraction effects. See random thoughts above.
Hey MoBo! I also thought this was a good package to side in, but ended up making a completely separate deck that runs it and is completely centred around getting it in play and active. Once the combo is done, it makes no difference whether you cast that Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier in the game. I think jamming the combo in here doesn't really help us. There's also a dedicated thread on the combo if you search the forums, with some decent ideas in it!
My list that does run the combo uses a bunch of counter magic and disruption (IoK and Thoughtseize also both activate the combo, as well as Ghost Quarter) to slow their game down, and Muddle the Mixture to tutor for either combo piece. Aether Vials allow you a turn 3 kill if you have the nuts (T1 Vial, T2 Mindcrank, T3 Vial + Guildmage in response to them playing a spell), and Spellskite also protects both of your combo pieces from destruction.
Thanks for the detailed testing!!!
I question the use of white in this deck, as the only thing you are using it for is Path to Exile. I don't even know if it's better than something like Murderous Cut (given you're running Mesmeric Orb) or Go for the Throat, as they don't ramp your opponent into land. I also keep my deck to 21 land, and I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like at 20 instead.
I am TOTALLY feeling your frustration on Mind Funeral. Like, it should be good, but at 3 mana... I'd almost rather the 2 mana for Breaking and guaranteed 8 cards. In combo with a Glimpse or an Archive Trap, it should get your opponent to 20 cards in the library for Visions of Beyond activation. I worry a little bit about the top end, but there's been too many games where I cast Mind Funeral and have to hope they have less than 4 lands in their library.
I still have my hesitations about Jace's Phantasm. But a 5/5 flying blocker is never bad, my only hesitation is cutting good spells for creatures when we have so few creatures - it essentially makes our opponent have a lot of dead cards in their creature removal if we keep our creature count low. I keep 2 in my sideboard and bring them in against creature based decks.
Snapcaster is awesome, period. Our spells are all pretty low mana cost, Mesmeric Orb puts a ton of options in our graveyard, and we get to choose the best one when required. I've also used him as a flash-blocker to save my butt a few times. I roll 4.
Inquisition is awesome early and not so awesome late game, I agree. But I think Serum Visions isn't very good in the mainboard, there's no real silver bullet spell we are looking for usually.
I'm going to a shop tournament tonight and planning to play my mill deck, so we'll see what the meta holds! Will post a report tonight or tomorrow.
I'm trying Bridge again after swearing it off because every mill list that gets posted has it. It sucks against some decks but also gives us easy wins against decks we don't have answers to other wise like Goryo's Vengence, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, any deck with Emrakul. It can save us from Primeval Titan or other fatties.
As of now I'm going to try running this deck that finished top 64. I can't find his matchups so I don't know how lucky his draws were. On a side note, I also want to try and figure out how important Archive Trap is and how much worse the deck gets without it because it has sat as a dead card in my hand more times than I'd like to admit.
Everyone was playing spellbomb in pages back because Jeskai Nahiri was breaking out and Nahiri would just kill Rest in Peace before getting Emrakul. That deck has fallen out of favor with Dredge and other fast decks becoming more popular.
On a side note... Yahenni's Expertise looks kinda sweet for us... 2BB: All creatures get -3/-3; then cast a spell that costs 3 or less for free... Basically a collected company for control decks
Ensnaring Bridge will want 23 lands minimum. I think I'm going to 24 to be honest. Doing some practice goldfishing, 24 has seemed better. I've offset the possibility of flooding by adding more fetches. Here is the probability for each number by turn 3:
23 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the play) - 75.5%
23 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the draw) - 82.8%
24 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the play) - 78.9%
24 Lands having 3 or more lands by turn 3 (no mulligans, on the draw) - 85.6%
I just googled black and blue cards that dealt with enchantments in modern for like 20 minutes and all I could find was imprisoned by the moon which would turn their leyline into a colorless land. Set Adrift seems to be the only viable option.
Collective Brutality is in every good modern deck that plays black. I feel like we should be doing the same. It acts as discard, acts as removal, and even the life gain is relevant vs burn all rolled into one card. It even synergizes with our bridge. Maybe this is the removal spell we are looking for in UB.
You still need to experience the awesomeness of having Gemstone Caverns on the draw.
Long-time kitchen table casual here (bought my first starter deck as an elementary school kiddo during 5th edition and have been playing on and off since then) who is looking to get into the Modern scene by way of Esper Mill. I've done a lot of research, for which this thread has been invaluable, as well as playtesting, and think I have a pretty good grasp on things. For now, I'll keep my focus on creature options. Here's what I've found:
Hedron Crab: Can't imagine anything less than a mandatory 4-of. Synergy with fetchlands is ungodly.
Augur of Bolas: I went into playtesting expecting this guy to be an all-star, but I'm actually not a fan. Early on, I want to be drawing into lands, creatures, and cards like Mesmeric Orb or Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge. Augur weeds those early game engines out in favor of removal (usually nice), milling spells (never bad, but would rather draw into them midgame), or--worst case scenario--nothing. I can only recommend Augur in a U/B milling deck loaded down with milling spells that plays like burn.
Jace's Phantasm: A 5/5 flyer for U is unreal, but with our creature tally on the low side, most decks I've faced are usually sitting on spot removal, so Phantasm often gets blown away without doing anything. Which leads me to...
Manic Scribe: Underwhelming on paper, at least to me, but the more I test this lunatic the better he seems. If Orbs are a 3-4 slot in your deck, Delirium is active a surprising amount of the time. At worst, he's DoA like the Phantasm, in which case he at least milled 3 before an ignominious end.
Right now, my ideal creature spread is 4 Crabs and 3 Scribes, with 3 Phantasms in the sideboard. I get more bodies on the field via 2 Lingering Souls and a Timely Reinforcements as well.
Haven't tested Snapcaster Mage as I don't own any, and his mechanics seem a little too mana intensive for the way this deck plays. And then there are the walls to consider--Wall of Omens and Wall of Shards have potential, while Wall of Denial probably doesn't do enough, cool though it is.
Anything I've missed out on or gotten horribly wrong?
I played a few rounds with 4 copies of Collective Brutality and Brutality into Ensnaring Bridge was quite the combo. The combo basically won vs Jund by stripping an Abrupt Decay, killing his Confidant and then discarded 2 lands in my 5 card hand of 4 lands and 1 bridge. Next turn he slammed grim flayer and Goyf and I played my bridge with 2 cards in hand and then next turn I had zero, felt good. If I didn't have Brutality I would have played Bridge with 4 lands in hand and taken 10 damage. If I topdeck a land then I lose and then I would probably have been whining about Ensnaring Bridge on this post. I may have still gotten there but the 2 discard outlet felt very relevant. I top decked a Brutality later which dealt with an annoying Grim Lavamancer later in the match, the card was very solid in this match. I ended up 2-0 vs Jund, which never happens. My other matchups were against decks that just didn't care about the card like Bogles so I still need to play it more.
If you're running Esper I don't think it's better than Path and I don't know if you want to have 6-8 spot removal spells in the mainboard. I may just run UB replacing Path with Brutality and finding a way to run Bridge main deck. Something like: 2-4 Brutality, 3 Bridge, 3-4 Visions, 2-3 Crypt, 3-4 Phantasm. That would leave me with 20-23 mill cards. I want more Glimpse spells at 2 mana so I'm going to try and add a couple Breakings for more consistency int he early game to turn on Jace and Visions. I'll Try to play a bunch of rounds and see how the cards/variation performs.
Ashiok with Bridge protection is basically game over. This combo is a clean answer to Emrakul game 1.
SavageGaul... As for the creature choice I agree that Scribe is better than Augur and should be played over him at all times. I can't comment on Snap because I don't own or play him, quite a few posters do like him though. Everyone loves Hedron Crab so you won't get any arguments there. As for the walls... The problem with the Walls is you actually have to cut cards in the deck that are better than them for our deck (in my opinion). What card(s) would you cut for them?
Thanks for the battle reports, brother. Collective Brutality is a monstrous card; definitely interested to see how we can fit it into the milling archetype. Two minor synergies that spring to mind: 1) discarding Lingering Souls and still getting the flashback, and 2) ditching certain card types to trigger Scribe's delerium.
I agree with your assessment of the fringe creatures--sure, they fit, but at what expense? When you frame it that way, only Wall of Omens seems to potentially merit a slot. It actually seems to compare favorably to Augur, come to think of it. 0/4 > 1/3 in our deck, and I'd rather have the straight draw than Augur's conditional draw. 1W is a bit harder to cast than 1U, maybe, but that shouldn't often factor in.
22 Lands
4 Hedron Crab
3 Manic Scribe
4 Mesmeric Orb
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Path to Exile
4 Archive Trap
3 Visions of Beyond
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Mind Funeral
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Lingering Souls
I love Phantasm, but what to drop? The deck feels very well-rounded as is.
Oh, another question for anyone with experience against Affinity: what's the verdict on Hurkyl's Recall vs. Stony Silence for anti-artifact sideboard tech? Should an Esper player run both?
Huh, interesting. Prison and Incursion have been the absolute MVPs for me in playtesting this far. My group must have more tribal aggro/go wide presence than usual. Still haven't been to a Modern tourney, so I'll certainly defer to your experience there.
With all that in mind, is it safe to say that we should run either Prison or Bridge in the maindeck and the other in the sideboard, switching out as needed? Or can mill get away with neither in the maindeck?
100% agree. I actually have Extraction sided for most games, but the list provided is what I'd take to a tourney if I went without knowing the meta. Without much knowledge of what to expect, Extraction maindeck makes sense to me.
Good points!
Budget reasons, mostly. $6 Verdict vs $70 Damnation! Do you find Damnation's regen hate more broadly effective than the uncounterable Verdict, or is it just the slightly easier casting cost you prefer?
Makes sense to me. Thanks for a thorough response!
...with 2 Thought Scours in place of the Surgical Extractions. The Extractions were sideboarded alongside 1 Extirpate, 1 Darkness, 1 Mind Funeral, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Profane Memento, 2 Stony Silence, 2 Disenchant, and 3 Phantasm. Just need to acquire 2x Rest In Peace and I'll have my sideboard finished, unless I'm prepared to invest in expensive options like Damnation or Engineered Explosives. Am I missing anything?
Faced a wide range of decks, but nothing necessarily top tier. Merfolk, mono-red Krenko Goblins, and Boros Vehicles were probably the best opposition, but I also faced Legacy Slivers, Rakdos Vampires, and an interesting mono-black homebrew involving Skirsdag High Priest, Disciple of Bolas, and a fair amount of Zombies.
Won every single matchup (including some repeats), and most were 2-0. Everyone wanted to crack the milling deck open, but there was an answer available for just about everything. I don't see how tribal aggro/go wide decks can compete against Memento, Orb, Prison, and Incursion.
Feeling great about this setup; learning my limits in regard to taking damage from fetch and shock lands. Definitely chomping at the bit to get into a real Modern tourney and see how it does. The closest one is over an hour's drive away, but they get a great turnout. Decisions...