I took Lightning Bolt and Lava Spike. The Bolts I took because I had Manic Scribe blockers against a Guide and Swiftspear. I hit one in his graveyard off a hedron trigger and I took them so he would have a harder time removing my creatures while he was tapped out. I took the Lava Spikes so my Dispels would have better targets. There were a decent amount of cards I felt were not helpful really at all that I swapped out. Surgicals didn't feel great but they didn't feel as bad. I figured the surgicals at the very least would help stall the game, they ended up doing just that. With the 5 cards pulled out of his library and the one of bolt from his hand, he wasn't drawing his burn as often. A single Crypt Incursion brought me way ahead in both games and he just couldn't keep up at that point.
The Surgicals were purely situational though and it wasn't an easy play for me to make. Jamming math and trying to figure out probability of the worst scenarios is quite taxing. If I didn't have so much experience with pure reactionary control, I don't think I would have been able to pull some plays last night that I did. I've gotten so accustomed to 'predicting' card counts of my opponents list and that it just happened to work out. I have a very analytical mind and I usually play very deliberately and at a non rushed pace so I avoid making an error at any point. I basically thought I would have a better chance with that in mind compared to the cards I took out for g2 and g3. Happened to work out for me but it's not something I feel like I could rely on consistently against Burn. The Surgicals are mainly for Tron lands and combo pieces.
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I am fairly new to the deck but I am wondering why no one is playing Snap Castermage. Wouldn't a two of snap caster be better then 2 manic scribes in the above deck?
I am fairly new to the deck but I am wondering why no one is playing Snap Castermage. Wouldn't a two of snap caster be better then 2 manic scribes in the above deck?
Snapcaster Mage is just a bit too slow and can be hard to play. I think Manic Scribe helped me out a bit Friday night. He certainly played a few roles that night. I've never liked Snapcaster in mill as he just hasn't performed well.
I do like snapcaster, I think he would be great in a control mill build simply because he can flashback an answer or just any of our mill spells.
However, in a more turbo mill build, having to pay 4 mana for a glimpse is not too great. I would prefer the scribe since he mills 3 a turn, blocks well and with a mesmeric orb it is VERY easy to get delirium (at least in my experience.) I went 3-0 last night and the scribes definitely pulled their weight.
Went 4-0 tonight. Not enough players for 5 rounds but a good night of magic. Played Abzan Coco-Chord 2-0, GWb tokens 2-0, Affinity 2-1 and BW Eldrazi 2-0. Biggest change was the Souls and Ghostly Prisons got cut and I added 4 Inquisition of Kozilek and a Breaking // Entering. Can't find my 4th Mesmeric orb so I had to make do with Mill 8. Inquisition played a pretty big roll tonight. Definitely satisfied with the play set but I think that going the 2/4 split with IoK that Thoughtseize might be a bit much. It's pretty helpful in the beginning but I drew it a few times in the mid and late game when it was a bit irrelevant and I was not too satisfied seeing them then.
Edit: I want to replace the Manic Scribe with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy I think. So far I haven't cared much for Manic Scribe. I have to stare down a GY with only Lands, Instants and Sorceries in them entirely more than I'd really like. This may or may not be wrong depending on your meta I think. I would probably play 3-4 if I expect a lot of burn since he is a fairly effective blocker on his own against them and if they kill him they will only trigger delirium for the next. He might be a good choice going into Dallas.
The Midwest Meta is VERY aggro oriented and Burn just might be the most popular deck around here. I may end up trying Timely Reinforcements in the main or Spellskites. Not sure but those don't sound bad. Infect is something that I am a bit worried about. I play Path almost entirely for Infect alone and I want to find a card that's useful against Burn and Infect alike. Spellskite doesn't do a whole lot against burn, in most cases I've found he will just stall for a turn before dying. Better than our face or our crabs I suppose, right? I could also opt to play more removal. I was thinking about Condemn too. It's not bad in a deck that doesn't care about life totals.
Not much of a difference. I really love how this deck is playing out right now. So far it's been a really good Meta choice and it just so happens to be that I just really love playing Mill. I hope I continue to do well with it, two X-0 Modern nights in a row now against all pretty competitive decks. It makes me a bit hopeful that Mill is the real deal in Modern now.
I'm just starting to learn this deck, and I saw several pages back, that some people rejected the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo for this deck. I've seen this combo run in as few as five slots (3 foundries and 2 swords) with some extras in the sideboard. Why isn't it a viable plan for the deck? Did people try it out and it was found lacking?
It just seems like it is a good alternative win condition when the milling isn't working out fast enough, when you need a more inevitable game plan, when you want to apply consistent pressure against certain opponents.
I think it would be more appropriate in a Control Mill shell, though I admit I don't know what that would look like. I can speak from experience though when talking about the combo and it just wouldn't be that effective in any of the recent versions of mill. It's pretty slow and I can't think of any one deck that you need the combo against after playing Esper Thopter for a few weeks my self.
Mill is generally fast enough to race most decks but you've got to have a way to stall. The problem with the thopter combo for that purpose is it's slow to the point to where we can die even if we go t2 T3 combo. Because 90% of our cards don't actually interact with the battlefield or the stack we will die just from lack of interaction, as mill usually does when it loses. The thopter combo just derails us from our main game plan and can slow the pace down on our end as much as our opponents. Not to mention we still have to find the combo to start it regardless and we don't have many effective ways to grab it consistently. Even when I was playing Visions, Thirst, Gifts and Muddle I had a hard time assembling the combo, and that's in a dedicated combo deck.
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I think Mind funeral is better than Breaking entering as it mills 10-13 on average. More powerful mill per card
The advantage to Breaking is you know what you are going to get. 8 cards for 2 mana. funeral is a bit random. I have had it hit for 4 as often as it has hit for 10+. Funeral does get better the later the game goes as more and more lands are fetched out or milled.
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Modern CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard GRGR Pummeler
Took the words right out of my mouth. I play only 2 Mind Funeral because I prefer it in the late game rather than see it early. I've had it hit less than 8 in a lot of scenarios early and mid game and the fact that Breaking will always get 8 is something I like over Mind Funeral.
The only reason Breaking is in at all though is to substitute for another 2 CMC mill card that I seem to have misplaced and that card is Mesmeric Orb. I think Orb is probably the best card in the deck and as soon as I find it I'm putting the 4th back in.
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I have a love/hate scenario with mind funeral. Atm i run 2 but when i get my third ghostly prison i will prob drop it to 1.
I have it is either a all star or underwhelming but i have confidence in the rest of my deck that there is more than enough mill so im prepared to take a chance on 1x mind funeral as a bit of a maverick card.
Played last night. Played against jund,eldrazi had a bye and then affinity.
I hadn't played against jund in a while. It seems a interesting match up but it seems to be pretty resilient to us. More testing needed against it. 0/2
Eldrazi is definitely better now since eye has been banned. Still a interesting deck and beatable. Seems pretty resilient to mill too. Better match up then jund i feel. 0/2 but definitely beatable.
Affinity has been my "oh *****, why this deck" when i have faced it. It has always been able to get around my ensnaring bridges and is super fast. First time playing against it since i went esper colours. I feel its a good match up now. Game one was extremely close with affinity getting the win. Game two i smashed affinity and third game was a draw due to time. After the match we both agreed that if it wasn't for time i would of been in a mutch better position for the win and probably would of won. Ghostly prison is a all star against this deck as is path to exile. 1/1
Very happy with the deck so far since going to esper colours. Since a lot more resilient and has a lot more answers. My worst match up now looks definitely like a 60/40 match up in my favour now. Sideboard answers to affinity are stony silence x2 and disenchant x2. Disenchant being a excellent utility against a few decks.
Will play again tonight and hopefully add in 1x ghostly prison to mb and 1x hallowed fountain to mb.
Jund is rough. Game one is difficult to say the least. G2 I bring in RiP to neuter Goyf and Oozes. Now that I replaced Bridge and Prison for IoK I've had a bit better game 1 against them. Helps me line up my plays and gets rid of those annoying and giant beaters that run us down. It's a nice pairing with Path vs Jund. I've found bridge and Prison both to be very lacking in that match and that was indeed something I considered before they got the cut.
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I think Mind funeral is better than Breaking entering as it mills 10-13 on average. More powerful mill per card
The advantage to Breaking is you know what you are going to get. 8 cards for 2 mana. funeral is a bit random. I have had it hit for 4 as often as it has hit for 10+. Funeral does get better the later the game goes as more and more lands are fetched out or milled.
its random, but playing magic is random
You dont know by what turn you are going to mill your opponent
8 vs 10-13, even 12-15 if you take fetches into accaunt
3 cmc is bigger, but is perfectly castable with 22-23 lands
I think Mind funeral is better than Breaking entering as it mills 10-13 on average. More powerful mill per card
The advantage to Breaking is you know what you are going to get. 8 cards for 2 mana. funeral is a bit random. I have had it hit for 4 as often as it has hit for 10+. Funeral does get better the later the game goes as more and more lands are fetched out or milled.
its random, but playing magic is random
You dont know by what turn you are going to mill your opponent
8 vs 10-13, even 12-15 if you take fetches into accaunt
3 cmc is bigger, but is perfectly castable with 22-23 lands
I am not saying that funeral is a bad card. I have run both in the past. I currently run 4 funerals in my mill with no breakings and 3 unthinkables/4 traps. I personal will hold funeral till later game one more lands have been played/mill. my favorate is to have one on a shelldock. No mater what it takes four lands away and that is good.
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Modern CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
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Here's how I've built it. It's less "all in" on the combo but grinds a little bit better and has a MUCH better aggro matchup
I never cared for Manic Scribe - so often it was a 2 mana 'mill 3' and then be a blocker, but it died too easily so often that I decided to just try playing a much better blocker. Originally I was working with Wall of Omens but then I realized that the 'drawback' of Wall of Shards didn't matter, so I could block virtually everything in the format without it dying.
Ghostly Prison works great with Mesmeric Orb to punish / choke their attack, and combined with the superior blocking of Wall of Shards, along with Lingering Souls and Path to Exile - aggro decks really are not going to be able to get through much damage before you can grind them out with mill cards.
Not much of a difference. I really love how this deck is playing out right now. So far it's been a really good Meta choice and it just so happens to be that I just really love playing Mill. I hope I continue to do well with it, two X-0 Modern nights in a row now against all pretty competitive decks. It makes me a bit hopeful that Mill is the real deal in Modern now.
Practically you have white only for PtE and RiP. Maybe they can be substituted by Ensnaring Bridge and 2 other Nihil Spellbombs....
Not much of a difference. I really love how this deck is playing out right now. So far it's been a really good Meta choice and it just so happens to be that I just really love playing Mill. I hope I continue to do well with it, two X-0 Modern nights in a row now against all pretty competitive decks. It makes me a bit hopeful that Mill is the real deal in Modern now.
Practically you have white only for PtE and RiP. Maybe they can be substituted by Ensnaring Bridge and 2 other Nihil Spellbombs....
Path to Exile, Disnchant, Stony Silence, RiP and Engineered Explosives. I play white for a lot of cards. I cut ensnaring bridge because it's counterintuitive with Visions and mill doesn't always dump their hand fast enough to stop Affinity or Infect. Those are the only two matches that I am truly worried about, maybe burn slightly more than affinity just because I have less hate for it. I don't really care about the other aggro matches because they are slow enough to stabilize and beat. Playing Bridge seems bad when my only real bad aggro matches are the two I mentioned. Both those decks can play around bridge too. Ghostly Prison works best against Infect but I still die too easily t2 or t3 without removal.
Edit: Wall of Shards could be incredible. He would be perfect against Affinity and Infect. Do let us know how it performs. I had a discussion about that card with my play group this week as a potential addition.
Here's how I've built it. It's less "all in" on the combo but grinds a little bit better and has a MUCH better aggro matchup
I never cared for Manic Scribe - so often it was a 2 mana 'mill 3' and then be a blocker, but it died too easily so often that I decided to just try playing a much better blocker. Originally I was working with Wall of Omens but then I realized that the 'drawback' of Wall of Shards didn't matter, so I could block virtually everything in the format without it dying.
Ghostly Prison works great with Mesmeric Orb to punish / choke their attack, and combined with the superior blocking of Wall of Shards, along with Lingering Souls and Path to Exile - aggro decks really are not going to be able to get through much damage before you can grind them out with mill cards.
I wouldn't cut the Path's. You want all 4 against Infect, if nothing else. Honestly I think you could cut the Prisons if you play with Wall and Soul's both. Your still play Crypt Incursion as well so that seems like sufficient aggro hate. I play just the 4 Path and 3 Crypt Incursion and I'm not really worried about most aggro matches personally but that might just be me.
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The Surgicals were purely situational though and it wasn't an easy play for me to make. Jamming math and trying to figure out probability of the worst scenarios is quite taxing. If I didn't have so much experience with pure reactionary control, I don't think I would have been able to pull some plays last night that I did. I've gotten so accustomed to 'predicting' card counts of my opponents list and that it just happened to work out. I have a very analytical mind and I usually play very deliberately and at a non rushed pace so I avoid making an error at any point. I basically thought I would have a better chance with that in mind compared to the cards I took out for g2 and g3. Happened to work out for me but it's not something I feel like I could rely on consistently against Burn. The Surgicals are mainly for Tron lands and combo pieces.
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Snapcaster Mage is just a bit too slow and can be hard to play. I think Manic Scribe helped me out a bit Friday night. He certainly played a few roles that night. I've never liked Snapcaster in mill as he just hasn't performed well.
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However, in a more turbo mill build, having to pay 4 mana for a glimpse is not too great. I would prefer the scribe since he mills 3 a turn, blocks well and with a mesmeric orb it is VERY easy to get delirium (at least in my experience.) I went 3-0 last night and the scribes definitely pulled their weight.
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
Edit: I want to replace the Manic Scribe with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy I think. So far I haven't cared much for Manic Scribe. I have to stare down a GY with only Lands, Instants and Sorceries in them entirely more than I'd really like. This may or may not be wrong depending on your meta I think. I would probably play 3-4 if I expect a lot of burn since he is a fairly effective blocker on his own against them and if they kill him they will only trigger delirium for the next. He might be a good choice going into Dallas.
The Midwest Meta is VERY aggro oriented and Burn just might be the most popular deck around here. I may end up trying Timely Reinforcements in the main or Spellskites. Not sure but those don't sound bad. Infect is something that I am a bit worried about. I play Path almost entirely for Infect alone and I want to find a card that's useful against Burn and Infect alike. Spellskite doesn't do a whole lot against burn, in most cases I've found he will just stall for a turn before dying. Better than our face or our crabs I suppose, right? I could also opt to play more removal. I was thinking about Condemn too. It's not bad in a deck that doesn't care about life totals.
4 Hedron Crab
2 Manic Scribe
Artifacts/Enchantments 5
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Sorceries/Instants 26
4 Path to Exile
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Crypt Incursion
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Breaking // Entering
2 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dispel
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rest in Peace
Not much of a difference. I really love how this deck is playing out right now. So far it's been a really good Meta choice and it just so happens to be that I just really love playing Mill. I hope I continue to do well with it, two X-0 Modern nights in a row now against all pretty competitive decks. It makes me a bit hopeful that Mill is the real deal in Modern now.
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It just seems like it is a good alternative win condition when the milling isn't working out fast enough, when you need a more inevitable game plan, when you want to apply consistent pressure against certain opponents.
Mill is generally fast enough to race most decks but you've got to have a way to stall. The problem with the thopter combo for that purpose is it's slow to the point to where we can die even if we go t2 T3 combo. Because 90% of our cards don't actually interact with the battlefield or the stack we will die just from lack of interaction, as mill usually does when it loses. The thopter combo just derails us from our main game plan and can slow the pace down on our end as much as our opponents. Not to mention we still have to find the combo to start it regardless and we don't have many effective ways to grab it consistently. Even when I was playing Visions, Thirst, Gifts and Muddle I had a hard time assembling the combo, and that's in a dedicated combo deck.
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G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
The advantage to Breaking is you know what you are going to get. 8 cards for 2 mana. funeral is a bit random. I have had it hit for 4 as often as it has hit for 10+. Funeral does get better the later the game goes as more and more lands are fetched out or milled.
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
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The only reason Breaking is in at all though is to substitute for another 2 CMC mill card that I seem to have misplaced and that card is Mesmeric Orb. I think Orb is probably the best card in the deck and as soon as I find it I'm putting the 4th back in.
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I have it is either a all star or underwhelming but i have confidence in the rest of my deck that there is more than enough mill so im prepared to take a chance on 1x mind funeral as a bit of a maverick card.
Played last night. Played against jund,eldrazi had a bye and then affinity.
I hadn't played against jund in a while. It seems a interesting match up but it seems to be pretty resilient to us. More testing needed against it. 0/2
Eldrazi is definitely better now since eye has been banned. Still a interesting deck and beatable. Seems pretty resilient to mill too. Better match up then jund i feel. 0/2 but definitely beatable.
Affinity has been my "oh *****, why this deck" when i have faced it. It has always been able to get around my ensnaring bridges and is super fast. First time playing against it since i went esper colours. I feel its a good match up now. Game one was extremely close with affinity getting the win. Game two i smashed affinity and third game was a draw due to time. After the match we both agreed that if it wasn't for time i would of been in a mutch better position for the win and probably would of won. Ghostly prison is a all star against this deck as is path to exile. 1/1
Very happy with the deck so far since going to esper colours. Since a lot more resilient and has a lot more answers. My worst match up now looks definitely like a 60/40 match up in my favour now. Sideboard answers to affinity are stony silence x2 and disenchant x2. Disenchant being a excellent utility against a few decks.
Will play again tonight and hopefully add in 1x ghostly prison to mb and 1x hallowed fountain to mb.
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Is that a normal sideboard card for them ?
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You dont know by what turn you are going to mill your opponent
8 vs 10-13, even 12-15 if you take fetches into accaunt
3 cmc is bigger, but is perfectly castable with 22-23 lands
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I am not saying that funeral is a bad card. I have run both in the past. I currently run 4 funerals in my mill with no breakings and 3 unthinkables/4 traps. I personal will hold funeral till later game one more lands have been played/mill. my favorate is to have one on a shelldock. No mater what it takes four lands away and that is good.
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
I never cared for Manic Scribe - so often it was a 2 mana 'mill 3' and then be a blocker, but it died too easily so often that I decided to just try playing a much better blocker. Originally I was working with Wall of Omens but then I realized that the 'drawback' of Wall of Shards didn't matter, so I could block virtually everything in the format without it dying.
Ghostly Prison works great with Mesmeric Orb to punish / choke their attack, and combined with the superior blocking of Wall of Shards, along with Lingering Souls and Path to Exile - aggro decks really are not going to be able to get through much damage before you can grind them out with mill cards.
I might still want to find room for a couple more mill cards, perhaps cutting 1 of the Wall of Shards and 1 Path to Exile for 2 Breaking // Entering
4 Archive Trap
2 Crypt Incursion
4 Path to Exile
4 Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (9)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Lingering Souls
2 Mind Funeral
Creature (8)
4 Hedron Crab
4 Wall of Shards
Enchantment (3)
3 Ghostly Prison
Artifact (4)
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
2 Bribery
1 Disenchant
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
Edit: Wall of Shards could be incredible. He would be perfect against Affinity and Infect. Do let us know how it performs. I had a discussion about that card with my play group this week as a potential addition.
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I wouldn't cut the Path's. You want all 4 against Infect, if nothing else. Honestly I think you could cut the Prisons if you play with Wall and Soul's both. Your still play Crypt Incursion as well so that seems like sufficient aggro hate. I play just the 4 Path and 3 Crypt Incursion and I'm not really worried about most aggro matches personally but that might just be me.
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