Yes it's mill! The old laughing stock of mtg archetypes, well I'm here to change that. I think that the new, large modern card pool has opened up a lot of great possibilities for mill giving it a chance at being competitive.
The name of the game is speed and efficiency here in modern. With that, there are inherently 3 big problems that have always plagued mill and kept it from becoming a real threat.
-Milling an opponent doesn't immediately affect him/her until their library reaches 0
-Making an opponent reach 0 can take a while as they beat your face with creatures in the process.
-Sometimes you just don't want some certain cards in an opponents grave yard, (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, flashback cads, ect...)
Here is the key to the deck, the card that will solve all our problems... well, a few cards actually but they all do similar things.
Those cards are our disruption. See a powerful card in an opponents GY? Surgical Extraction it. Get rid of BBE or goyf against jund, snapcaster for control, ect. These cards make sure we don't see these threats while we mill our opponent whether they're nasty, fast creatures that can kill us before we win or cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that stop our deck all together. They even get rid of non basic lands!
Mind Funeral: This card can hit HARD... or it won't. Either way, for 3 mana it'll mill a good amount of cards. Extirpate nonbasic lands for a better chance at milling for more!
Tome Scour: One mana, 5 cards. Efficient and cheap!
Mind Sculpt: Little less efficient, but still decent.
Visions of Beyond: Draw 3 cards for 1 mana. Awesome card, but you don't want too many because they can sit in your hand for the first few turns. Draw is important for mill so we don't cast all our spells quickly and run out of gas.
Compulsive Research: Like I said above, another draw spell so we don't run out of gas and go into topdeck mode.
Sadistic Sacrament: You'll be dead before you can kick it, but removing 3 aggressive cards could be useful.
Black Sun's Zenith: Good Sb card if you're playing faieries or something.
With all these cards, some are better than others. I listed a number of them so you could all get an idea of what we have to work with. That being said, I think that the quicker approach with mill is the better approach. Cards like Jace, Memory Adept and Nemesis of Reason hit hard, but too slowly imo. Mill should be draw cards, deck neutering and obviously, quick mill spells.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
AIM? All in mill, and represents exactly what you are doing. Aiming to kill them off of mill. Thought it was clever. Even though not very well presented.
Should we play Devastation Tide? In mill decks, we frequently find ourselves unable to handle the threats opponents put onto the board. The only permanents I'm willing to run will only be Snapcaster Mage, and bouncing the whole board back will buy us plenty of time. Bouncing our own Snapcaster to flashback another Mill spell again? Sick!!!
Should we play Devastation Tide? In mill decks, we frequently find ourselves unable to handle the threats opponents put onto the board. The only permanents I'm willing to run will only be Snapcaster Mage, and bouncing the whole board back will buy us plenty of time. Bouncing our own Snapcaster to flashback another Mill spell again? Sick!!!
Yeah thats why i added in a devastation tide to bounce the snapcaster mage back and then using it to flashback another mill spell. =D
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Yeah thats why i added in a devastation tide to bounce the snapcaster mage back and then using it to flashback another mill spell. =D
Oh Sorry, I didn't see it in your mainboard - didn't know you shifted it to the sideboard. I would try to mainboard Devastion Tide, as in Mill decks we frequently need a reset button. I used to run Evacuation back then, but I think Tide is better even as a sorcery. Thought Scour and Devastation Tide works very well too, you can try to activate it on your opponent turn via Thought Scour's cantrip.
If you want to play walls, Ya could look for Wall of denial its has shroud which is much more better considering there are so many creature removal today, eg unsummon, murder, etc.
However it will cost 1 more blue to cast it.
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Too inconsistent. If you end up needing countermagic I could see doing it.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I think 4x Extraction and 4x Extirpate is overdoing it a bit. Maybe 4 Extraction and 2 Extirpate would be a good balance.
Hell, in the main deck I'd run 3-4 total of either at best, with some more in the sideboard. They don't contribute much except against very specific decks.
I'd rather run more mill cards.
Also, Damnation? Beats the crap out of bounce sweepers like Evacuation and Tide.
Completely agree. Damnation is probably one of the best cards for this deck.
EDIT: Also, looking at the OP list, I'd add some scalding tarns to get even more use out of the crabs.
W/U/B is too hard on the current mana base, especially if you're playing Sadistic Sacrament. BBB is gonna be a dead card in your hand almost always so just drop that and play something else. Some shocklands and more fetches to utilise Hedron Crab too.
And by the looks of this, the crabs are just gonna eat all the removal since they're pretty much your only creatures that 'need' to stay on the battlefield. The Snaps are just to recur your mill spells so eating removal wouldn't matter. I'm beginning to think that playing the crabs are just wasting the slots. Will it be better for them to have dead removals in game 1 then board in the crabs when they remove their removals game 2?
Also, drop the Oblivion Rings for Path to Exile cause they work great with Archive Trap. O-Ring wouldn't work very well as, again, you don't wanna be dragging a game too long. You probably can't too, with all the aggro decks around.
You need an answer for Leyline of Sanctity. Its a very common sideboard card and in theory you opponent could just mulligan to it on games 2-3 and watch you scoop.
W/U/B is too hard on the current mana base, especially if you're playing Sadistic Sacrament. BBB is gonna be a dead card in your hand almost always so just drop that and play something else. Some shocklands and more fetches to utilise Hedron Crab too.
And by the looks of this, the crabs are just gonna eat all the removal since they're pretty much your only creatures that 'need' to stay on the battlefield. The Snaps are just to recur your mill spells so eating removal wouldn't matter. I'm beginning to think that playing the crabs are just wasting the slots. Will it be better for them to have dead removals in game 1 then board in the crabs when they remove their removals game 2?
Also, drop the Oblivion Rings for Path to Exile cause they work great with Archive Trap. O-Ring wouldn't work very well as, again, you don't wanna be dragging a game too long. You probably can't too, with all the aggro decks around.
Hmmm invisible stalker + sword of body and mind is the alt win con if the hand is bad, could only think of subbing them for tome scour, 1 U for 5 cards is kinda good.
Hahas, you share the same mind as me, I too think that the crabs are a waste of slots. They make a meh meh blocker thou =\
However I was thinking maybe a cheap U or B with regen could take up crab's slot such as Odious Trow, Drudge Skeletons or Kuro's Taken.
You need an answer for Leyline of Sanctity. Its a very common sideboard card and in theory you opponent could just mulligan to it on games 2-3 and watch you scoop.
Yeah, still thinking of a card to sub in for. Can't think of any. Suggestions?
Althou Sadistic Sacrament could potentially remove it if the leyline isn't in the starting hand. If it is then I m screwed.
Yes it's mill! The old laughing stock of mtg archetypes, well I'm here to change that. I think that the new, large modern card pool has opened up a lot of great possibilities for mill giving it a chance at being competitive.
The name of the game is speed and efficiency here in modern. With that, there are inherently 3 big problems that have always plagued mill and kept it from becoming a real threat.
-Milling an opponent doesn't immediately affect him/her until their library reaches 0
-Making an opponent reach 0 can take a while as they beat your face with creatures in the process.
-Sometimes you just don't want some certain cards in an opponents grave yard, (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, flashback cads, ect...)
Here is the key to the deck, the card that will solve all our problems... well, a few cards actually but they all do similar things.
Those cards are our disruption. See a powerful card in an opponents GY? Surgical Extraction it. Get rid of BBE or goyf against jund, snapcaster for control, ect. These cards make sure we don't see these threats while we mill our opponent whether they're nasty, fast creatures that can kill us before we win or cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that stop our deck all together. They even get rid of non basic lands!
Any good mill deck should be playing
4 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes
Now let's get on to the fun part. The part that makes mill mill, the mill cards!
Archive Trap: This card is one of our hardest hitting mill spells and can be cast for free if you Ghost Quarter an opponents land or cast an Extirpate or Surgical Extraction.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: 2 mana, 10 cards. Amazing.
Mind Funeral: This card can hit HARD... or it won't. Either way, for 3 mana it'll mill a good amount of cards. Extirpate nonbasic lands for a better chance at milling for more!
Tome Scour: One mana, 5 cards. Efficient and cheap!
Mind Sculpt: Little less efficient, but still decent.
Bitter Ordeal: Gravestorm makes this card hit hard.
Sanity Grinding: This card is better in mono blue mill decks, can be very inconsistent sometimes.
Jace, Memory Adept: Little bit slow but powerful in a mill deck. Some will play him, some won't.
Hedron Crab: Essential in any mill deck. 1 drop with a body that works amazingly in multiples and with ghost quarter / fetches.
Dream Twist: Essentially 3 mana to mill 6 cards. meh.
Drowner Initiate: Another body that can block if needed.
Nemesis of Reason: slow but strong.
Now, the support spells. Cards that don't necessarily mill directly, but still aid our efforts nicely.
Twincast: Manage to get one on a free Archive Trap? Hello 26 cards going to the grave yard. Even better, a Mind Funeral.
Visions of Beyond: Draw 3 cards for 1 mana. Awesome card, but you don't want too many because they can sit in your hand for the first few turns. Draw is important for mill so we don't cast all our spells quickly and run out of gas.
Compulsive Research: Like I said above, another draw spell so we don't run out of gas and go into topdeck mode.
Sadistic Sacrament: You'll be dead before you can kick it, but removing 3 aggressive cards could be useful.
Black Sun's Zenith: Good Sb card if you're playing faieries or something.
Quash: Counters and removes threats.
With all these cards, some are better than others. I listed a number of them so you could all get an idea of what we have to work with. That being said, I think that the quicker approach with mill is the better approach. Cards like Jace, Memory Adept and Nemesis of Reason hit hard, but too slowly imo. Mill should be draw cards, deck neutering and obviously, quick mill spells.
Here's my list.
4 Hedron Crab
Mill
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Tome Scour
4 Mind Sculpt
4 Visions of Beyond
Neutering
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes
Lands
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Swamp
SB
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-Tom
How do u think of this deck?
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Ghost Quarter
5x Island
2x Jwar Isle Refuge
5x Swamp
4x Thought Scour
2x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Devastation Tide
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3x Haunting Echoes
4x Mind Funeral
3x Invisible Stalker
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Keening Stone
2x Sword of Body and Mind
4x Surgical Extraction
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
4 Snapcaster Mage
SPELLS
4 Archive Trap
4 Dream Twist
4 Extirpate
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thought Scour
4 Tome Scour
4 Visions of Beyond
1 Blood Crypt
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Ghostly Quarter
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
4 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Archive Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Ghost Quarter
5x Island
2x Jwar Isle Refuge
5x Swamp
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Mind Funeral
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Thought Scour
3x Visions of Beyond
3x Hedron Crab
3x Invisible Stalker
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Sword of Body and Mind
4x Jace's Phantasm
2x Devastation Tide
1x Surgical Extraction
Invisible stalker vs jace's phantasm. Mmmm the unblockability and removal immunity on invisible stalker is kinda better to deliver the hit from the sword of body and mind which makes a alt win con if your hand is bad.
Was thinking about subbing out the keening stone for something better but I am out of ideas. However the keening stone acts as another alt win con.
I playtested it out quite a few times and its kinda good that way. So yeah suggestions pls =)
Thanks all for reading =)
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Should we play Devastation Tide? In mill decks, we frequently find ourselves unable to handle the threats opponents put onto the board. The only permanents I'm willing to run will only be Snapcaster Mage, and bouncing the whole board back will buy us plenty of time. Bouncing our own Snapcaster to flashback another Mill spell again? Sick!!!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yeah thats why i added in a devastation tide to bounce the snapcaster mage back and then using it to flashback another mill spell. =D
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Oh Sorry, I didn't see it in your mainboard - didn't know you shifted it to the sideboard. I would try to mainboard Devastion Tide, as in Mill decks we frequently need a reset button. I used to run Evacuation back then, but I think Tide is better even as a sorcery. Thought Scour and Devastation Tide works very well too, you can try to activate it on your opponent turn via Thought Scour's cantrip.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Also, Damnation? Beats the crap out of bounce sweepers like Evacuation and Tide.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
However it will cost 1 more blue to cast it.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Also, where's Broken Ambitions?
Too inconsistent. If you end up needing countermagic I could see doing it.
Hell, in the main deck I'd run 3-4 total of either at best, with some more in the sideboard. They don't contribute much except against very specific decks.
I'd rather run more mill cards.
Completely agree. Damnation is probably one of the best cards for this deck.
EDIT: Also, looking at the OP list, I'd add some scalding tarns to get even more use out of the crabs.
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
3x Island
2x Isolated Chapel
2x Jwar Isle Refuge
3x Swamp
4x Thought Scour
2x Visions of Beyond
2x Devastation Tide
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Mind Funeral
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Invisible Stalker
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Sword of Body and Mind
What do you guys think? Stick to U/B or go W/U/B?
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
W/U/B is too hard on the current mana base, especially if you're playing Sadistic Sacrament. BBB is gonna be a dead card in your hand almost always so just drop that and play something else. Some shocklands and more fetches to utilise Hedron Crab too.
I suggest just dropping the mid-game plan of Invisible Stalker and Sword of Body and Mind for 4 of each of Snapcaster Mage and Hedron Crab. Dragging out a game wouldn't work out very well for the strategy.
And by the looks of this, the crabs are just gonna eat all the removal since they're pretty much your only creatures that 'need' to stay on the battlefield. The Snaps are just to recur your mill spells so eating removal wouldn't matter. I'm beginning to think that playing the crabs are just wasting the slots. Will it be better for them to have dead removals in game 1 then board in the crabs when they remove their removals game 2?
Also, drop the Oblivion Rings for Path to Exile cause they work great with Archive Trap. O-Ring wouldn't work very well as, again, you don't wanna be dragging a game too long. You probably can't too, with all the aggro decks around.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Hmmm invisible stalker + sword of body and mind is the alt win con if the hand is bad, could only think of subbing them for tome scour, 1 U for 5 cards is kinda good.
Hahas, you share the same mind as me, I too think that the crabs are a waste of slots. They make a meh meh blocker thou =\
However I was thinking maybe a cheap U or B with regen could take up crab's slot such as Odious Trow, Drudge Skeletons or Kuro's Taken.
Yeah, still thinking of a card to sub in for. Can't think of any. Suggestions?
Althou Sadistic Sacrament could potentially remove it if the leyline isn't in the starting hand. If it is then I m screwed.
Snapcaster mage is a very good card for this deck, consider that most of the spells are < 3 mana, eg: glimpse the unthinkable, mind funeral, etc
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU