Anyone have any experience running a Detection Tower or 2 as an answwer to Leyline of Sanctity?
I used it in my U/W Turbo Trap version since I played 4 Tolaria West to be able to fetch Field of Ruins and since the deck was super all in on Archive Trap, I couldn't afford to be shut down by Leyline of Sanctity.
It works okay, but there are a lot of decks that can kill the land and then you're just out of luck and it's also a little slow against Bogles since you can't really race them with a Leyline in play and using mana to shut it off while they are attacking with a large creature.
All in all, I'm more of a fan of just playing a few Echoing Truth and Set Adrift, which also happen to be fine answers to other things and once in their hand many decks that play Leyline of Sanctity can't replay them, so it's just as good as a permanent solution
R1: Mono Green Tron (2-1) Easy win. I had a mull to 5 that cost me a game, but this is a 90% favored match, imo
R2: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-1) Close gaemes, but 7 extraction effects to hit their limited threats is usually enough. In the game I lost he was at 4 and if I had drawn a Glimpse or Archive Trap I would win. I drew a Collective Brutality and needed him to be at 2 instead of 4 for that to matter.
R3: Humans (2-1) Got him locked behind a bridge G1. He had a nut draw g2 and I couldn't race or find a Crypt Incursion to allow me to race. G3 was more of G1 scenario. He got bridge locked after I removed his only real out (Deputy of Detention)
R4: Grixis Control (2-1) Not too close, but he did manage to get a game off me when I stumbled on mana for a few turns and he was able to put in a quick Bolt, K-Command, Snapcaster Bolt, Creeping Tar Pit attack for a couple turns while I stayed stuck on mana.
R5: Mono Green Tron (0-2) -- this should never happen and was largely due to me not hitting any tron lands in top 3-10 cards in both games and opponent hitting natural tron in both games followed by 2nd Tower and Ulamog the next turn.
R6: Sultai Reclamation (0-2)-- very tilting matchup since they put almost no pressure on you, but since G1 is unwinnable, you have to hope to draw Unmoored Ego in G2 and G3 and it has to resolve through their countermagic. G2 I stuck at 2 lands for way too long and could not come back when I did have the Ego.
G1 I get him to like 15 cards in his library and a Bridge in play which he cannot remove. He scoops and we go to G2. In G2, he has a good start but on turn 4, he casts Summoners Pact and gets a Titan. I play a Bridge and have 3 cards in hand. On his next turn he does not pay for his pact. He then casts a Tireless Tracker and Azusa and then moves to end step. I call a judge because I am certain he has not paid his pact and has tapped out of mana to do so now. I specifically waited until he had spent his available mana to do other things before calling judge because they changed how this works recently and I am very aware of it.
Opponent swore that the pact was paid a turn ago but because the terrible rules that do not punish them at the time they miss their trigger and allow the game state to move forward before it's actually punishable, the graveyard is nearly impossible to confirm the order is correct due to multiple mill spells, surgical extraction, and other spells played. Just complete nonsense but I am 100% certain he failed to pay his Pact. The reason I am so certain of this also partly because he did the same thing G1 and I saw his shoulders slump and he shook his head when he drew his card for the turn and then he tanked for about 10 seconds and then said 'oh well I just scoop you probably win this anyway' -- he fully knew he didn't pay his pact and thought he'd lost the game but I hadn't noticed (I did, but I am not going to let him have a free pact payment if he is going to tap down mana for other nonsense and then give me the win because he then is unable to pay.
G3 I keep hand of Island, Watery Grave, Ensnaring Bridge x2, Hedron Crab, Glimpse, and Surgical. Over the next 9 turns I mill him off 2 Glimpses, Surgical his Titans, and cast a Mission Briefing + 2 fully powered Visions of Beyond and never see that 3rd land. 17 cards and not a single land in them. The game ends with me holding 2 Bridges in hand and him having 12 cards left in his deck and I never got a 3rd land in play. Unreal.
Final match record: 4-3 and a hugely frustrating last 3 rounds. I feel the the Tron and Amulet matches are very favorable and I got quite unlucky in both of them to lose.
Deck is great, would not change anything about my list.
How the hell did you lose to Amulet AND Tron?!?!?! The amulet matchup has been a landslide every time I played it. Damn, I'd be so mad too. Especially after beating both shadow and humans... You must have felt like it was your tournament. Pretty *****ty to run into the super low meta Sultai Reclamation.
Just read all the amulet matches... Sounds like you would have played it the same way I would have lol. A pact trigger is not something an opponent just forgets. I wonder how many other times this has happened to people. I think I remember an Amulet player missing a pact trigger on camera. Maybe it was the same guy you played?
I like adding the 3rd push to the main and was only different from you with playing the 3rd bridge in the side and a couple different sideboard cards but I'm sure it was essential to beating shadow and humans so maybe I'm wrong with that. Nice report.
Did the extra Echoing Truth pay off for you? I've always felt comfortable with 2 sideboard slots devoted to non creature permanent removal in the sideboard, especially with Mission Briefing in the deck.
I think you should call a judge when he draws (first game too)
Im not sure your strategy is legal and it definitely worked against you
G3 I didnt get how could you play Mission Briefing with UB
They changed how remembering to pay for Pacts works. It's no longer a game loss when they draw their card. My strategy is very legal. I'm not required to remind my opponent about their triggers until it becomes clear they have forgotten them. Since they changed the way Pacts work for paying them, I have no way of knowing he forgot it until he uses his mana for something else. Once they use their mana for something else, they will not be able to back up and pay for the pact, which mean they lose.
I think I had a Watery Grave instead of the Swamp actually and didn't remember it correctly
How the hell did you lose to Amulet AND Tron?!?!?! The amulet matchup has been a landslide every time I played it. Damn, I'd be so mad too. Especially after beating both shadow and humans... You must have felt like it was your tournament. Pretty *****ty to run into the super low meta Sultai Reclamation.
Just read all the amulet matches... Sounds like you would have played it the same way I would have lol. A pact trigger is not something an opponent just forgets. I wonder how many other times this has happened to people. I think I remember an Amulet player missing a pact trigger on camera. Maybe it was the same guy you played?
I like adding the 3rd push to the main and was only different from you with playing the 3rd bridge in the side and a couple different sideboard cards but I'm sure it was essential to beating shadow and humans so maybe I'm wrong with that. Nice report.
Did the extra Echoing Truth pay off for you? I've always felt comfortable with 2 sideboard slots devoted to non creature permanent removal in the sideboard, especially with Mission Briefing in the deck.
I never cast the Echoing Truth, but I did side it in a few times. I feel like it was important to try to have a better way of dealing with multiple permanents like Phoenix, Amalgams or Gurmag Anglers since Fatal Push is iffy against them.
How the hell did you lose to Amulet AND Tron?!?!?! The amulet matchup has been a landslide every time I played it. Damn, I'd be so mad too. Especially after beating both shadow and humans... You must have felt like it was your tournament. Pretty *****ty to run into the super low meta Sultai Reclamation.
Just read all the amulet matches... Sounds like you would have played it the same way I would have lol. A pact trigger is not something an opponent just forgets. I wonder how many other times this has happened to people. I think I remember an Amulet player missing a pact trigger on camera. Maybe it was the same guy you played?
I like adding the 3rd push to the main and was only different from you with playing the 3rd bridge in the side and a couple different sideboard cards but I'm sure it was essential to beating shadow and humans so maybe I'm wrong with that. Nice report.
Did the extra Echoing Truth pay off for you? I've always felt comfortable with 2 sideboard slots devoted to non creature permanent removal in the sideboard, especially with Mission Briefing in the deck.
I never cast the Echoing Truth, but I did side it in a few times. I feel like it was important to try to have a better way of dealing with multiple permanents like Phoenix, Amalgams or Gurmag Anglers since Fatal Push is iffy against them.
I like Dismember, Id definitely replace one or two pushes with it. It kills many things and its price starts from 1 generic mana
They changed how remembering to pay for Pacts works. It's no longer a game loss when they draw their card. My strategy is very legal. I'm not required to remind my opponent about their triggers until it becomes clear they have forgotten them. Since they changed the way Pacts work for paying them, I have no way of knowing he forgot it until he uses his mana for something else. Once they use their mana for something else, they will not be able to back up and pay for the pact, which mean they lose.
I think I had a Watery Grave instead of the Swamp actually and didn't remember it correctly
They changed how remembering to pay for Pacts works. It's no longer a game loss when they draw their card. My strategy is very legal. I'm not required to remind my opponent about their triggers until it becomes clear they have forgotten them. Since they changed the way Pacts work for paying them, I have no way of knowing he forgot it until he uses his mana for something else. Once they use their mana for something else, they will not be able to back up and pay for the pact, which mean they lose.
I think I had a Watery Grave instead of the Swamp actually and didn't remember it correctly
Yeah, I think the policy is awful but the way they have written it make it so as a competitive player looking to use the rules toward your advantage, you have to basically do nothing until way later in the turn and then point it out when they can't pay for it because they paid mana for casting other spells. A real stupid way of doing things, and I made sure the judge that was called for my issue was aware that this rule is awful and specifically with Mill decks and decks that use the graveyard, it becomes nearly impossible to track what turn the pact was actually played by tracking the graveyard for spells played over the game and where the pact sits in the graveyard in relation to the other spells.
Jonas, quick notes on your notepad will help in this regard. Just indicate it is for later deck report purposes.
I'd like to turn the discussion over to the proposed London Mulligan rule, and how this helps and hurts us in UB mill.
First, I see that it makes it easier for us to find our core pieces, be they Hedron Crab, Archive Trap, Mesmeric Orb and Ensnaring Bridge.
But it hurts us be allowing us to be greedy, and wide open to Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek. Others can mulligan aggressively to find Leyline of Sanctity, or an artifact destruction spell.
Transformational sideboards will become more common, leaving us guessing the core pieces of their deck.
As a side note, I am anxiously awaiting spoiler season of Modern Horizons, to see the rumored new land cycle. If it is the mono-color fetch many are expecting, Land based Mill could become a Thing, using Mind Grind, Mind Funeral and even Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker, not to mention Dimir Charm. (And I am so getting my Mirko's altered to depict Mirko Cro-Cop! 'Land card hospital, non-land cemetery!')
Jonas, quick notes on your notepad will help in this regard. Just indicate it is for later deck report purposes.
Definitely going to start noting this sort of thing in the future. Upon further reflection, I really should have shown my lifepad to the judge and pointed out that there's no way that Titan has been on the battlefield and able to attack for 2 turns, as evidenced by my life total changes... but I was so flustered by my opponent just bold faced lying to me and the judge like that (and in an event that is lauded for its friendly and community focused 'coming together for a great cause and playing magic to honor those we've lost' that someone would stoop to such disgusting levels)
Live and learn, but if I ever play that opponent again or see him paired vs any of my friends, I'm letting them know up front he's a cheater and they better watch him like a hawk.
London mulligan rule doesn't affect us a ton in my opinion. We need a critical mass of spells and we can't just mulligan hoping to get 4 archive traps etc... If the 7 is a winning 7 keep it, if not mull it.
The only time I could see it helping us is if Hollow One and Death Shadow make a big rise and make us want to sideboard a few copies of Leyline of the Void because those matchups go from hard to very easy if you are able to draw the Leyline in your opening hand.
Meekstone would be another one that would really be a big help against aggro decks.
Propaganda is one that is probably too slow, but might be another good reprint for us (or blue based control/prison anyway)
I suspect that Counterspell might even be playable in Mill if we wanted to go into a more controlling shell, but who knows if the deck would feel too powered down to go that route, might have to rebuild the whole thing from that angle.
I think Counterspell actually helps us because it is strictly worse than Logic Knot against us. Being able to exile your whole graveyard to turn off future visions of beyond or surgical or whatever else is a huge swing in the control matchups.
This could be a Thing in Esper Mill. Removes a threat the turn it comes down, turns off all their ability to react to the stack, and enables you to play mill cards (which generally tend to be sorceries) at instant speed at end of their turn, meaning you can hold up mana to, say, counter their spells.
This card truly slows the game down and makes Mill a control match-up. It gets better the longer a game goes.
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Agree. Also pretty strong vs various other go wide decks like Spirits and Humans (in conjunction with board wipes) and decent vs Infect as well.
I used it in my U/W Turbo Trap version since I played 4 Tolaria West to be able to fetch Field of Ruins and since the deck was super all in on Archive Trap, I couldn't afford to be shut down by Leyline of Sanctity.
It works okay, but there are a lot of decks that can kill the land and then you're just out of luck and it's also a little slow against Bogles since you can't really race them with a Leyline in play and using mana to shut it off while they are attacking with a large creature.
All in all, I'm more of a fan of just playing a few Echoing Truth and Set Adrift, which also happen to be fine answers to other things and once in their hand many decks that play Leyline of Sanctity can't replay them, so it's just as good as a permanent solution
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Field of Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Artifact (6)
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mesmeric Orb
4 Archive Trap
2 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Mission Briefing
1 Murderous Cut
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (8)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Creature (4)
4 Hedron Crab
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Collective Brutality
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Damnation
1 Dismember
2 Echoing Truth
3 Extirpate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Set Adrift
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Unmoored Ego
Hoping to improve on my 32nd place finish from last year with UB Mill
R2: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-1) Close gaemes, but 7 extraction effects to hit their limited threats is usually enough. In the game I lost he was at 4 and if I had drawn a Glimpse or Archive Trap I would win. I drew a Collective Brutality and needed him to be at 2 instead of 4 for that to matter.
R3: Humans (2-1) Got him locked behind a bridge G1. He had a nut draw g2 and I couldn't race or find a Crypt Incursion to allow me to race. G3 was more of G1 scenario. He got bridge locked after I removed his only real out (Deputy of Detention)
R4: Grixis Control (2-1) Not too close, but he did manage to get a game off me when I stumbled on mana for a few turns and he was able to put in a quick Bolt, K-Command, Snapcaster Bolt, Creeping Tar Pit attack for a couple turns while I stayed stuck on mana.
R5: Mono Green Tron (0-2) -- this should never happen and was largely due to me not hitting any tron lands in top 3-10 cards in both games and opponent hitting natural tron in both games followed by 2nd Tower and Ulamog the next turn.
R6: Sultai Reclamation (0-2)-- very tilting matchup since they put almost no pressure on you, but since G1 is unwinnable, you have to hope to draw Unmoored Ego in G2 and G3 and it has to resolve through their countermagic. G2 I stuck at 2 lands for way too long and could not come back when I did have the Ego.
R7: Amulet Titan (1-2) -- extremely tilting match.
G1 I get him to like 15 cards in his library and a Bridge in play which he cannot remove. He scoops and we go to G2. In G2, he has a good start but on turn 4, he casts Summoners Pact and gets a Titan. I play a Bridge and have 3 cards in hand. On his next turn he does not pay for his pact. He then casts a Tireless Tracker and Azusa and then moves to end step. I call a judge because I am certain he has not paid his pact and has tapped out of mana to do so now. I specifically waited until he had spent his available mana to do other things before calling judge because they changed how this works recently and I am very aware of it.
Opponent swore that the pact was paid a turn ago but because the terrible rules that do not punish them at the time they miss their trigger and allow the game state to move forward before it's actually punishable, the graveyard is nearly impossible to confirm the order is correct due to multiple mill spells, surgical extraction, and other spells played. Just complete nonsense but I am 100% certain he failed to pay his Pact. The reason I am so certain of this also partly because he did the same thing G1 and I saw his shoulders slump and he shook his head when he drew his card for the turn and then he tanked for about 10 seconds and then said 'oh well I just scoop you probably win this anyway' -- he fully knew he didn't pay his pact and thought he'd lost the game but I hadn't noticed (I did, but I am not going to let him have a free pact payment if he is going to tap down mana for other nonsense and then give me the win because he then is unable to pay.
G3 I keep hand of Island, Watery Grave, Ensnaring Bridge x2, Hedron Crab, Glimpse, and Surgical. Over the next 9 turns I mill him off 2 Glimpses, Surgical his Titans, and cast a Mission Briefing + 2 fully powered Visions of Beyond and never see that 3rd land. 17 cards and not a single land in them. The game ends with me holding 2 Bridges in hand and him having 12 cards left in his deck and I never got a 3rd land in play. Unreal.
Final match record: 4-3 and a hugely frustrating last 3 rounds. I feel the the Tron and Amulet matches are very favorable and I got quite unlucky in both of them to lose.
Deck is great, would not change anything about my list.
edit: corrected an error
Just read all the amulet matches... Sounds like you would have played it the same way I would have lol. A pact trigger is not something an opponent just forgets. I wonder how many other times this has happened to people. I think I remember an Amulet player missing a pact trigger on camera. Maybe it was the same guy you played?
I like adding the 3rd push to the main and was only different from you with playing the 3rd bridge in the side and a couple different sideboard cards but I'm sure it was essential to beating shadow and humans so maybe I'm wrong with that. Nice report.
Did the extra Echoing Truth pay off for you? I've always felt comfortable with 2 sideboard slots devoted to non creature permanent removal in the sideboard, especially with Mission Briefing in the deck.
Im not sure your strategy is legal and it definitely worked against you
G3 I didnt get how could you play Mission Briefing with UB
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I think I had a Watery Grave instead of the Swamp actually and didn't remember it correctly
I never cast the Echoing Truth, but I did side it in a few times. I feel like it was important to try to have a better way of dealing with multiple permanents like Phoenix, Amalgams or Gurmag Anglers since Fatal Push is iffy against them.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Yeah, I think the policy is awful but the way they have written it make it so as a competitive player looking to use the rules toward your advantage, you have to basically do nothing until way later in the turn and then point it out when they can't pay for it because they paid mana for casting other spells. A real stupid way of doing things, and I made sure the judge that was called for my issue was aware that this rule is awful and specifically with Mill decks and decks that use the graveyard, it becomes nearly impossible to track what turn the pact was actually played by tracking the graveyard for spells played over the game and where the pact sits in the graveyard in relation to the other spells.
I'd like to turn the discussion over to the proposed London Mulligan rule, and how this helps and hurts us in UB mill.
First, I see that it makes it easier for us to find our core pieces, be they Hedron Crab, Archive Trap, Mesmeric Orb and Ensnaring Bridge.
But it hurts us be allowing us to be greedy, and wide open to Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek. Others can mulligan aggressively to find Leyline of Sanctity, or an artifact destruction spell.
Transformational sideboards will become more common, leaving us guessing the core pieces of their deck.
As a side note, I am anxiously awaiting spoiler season of Modern Horizons, to see the rumored new land cycle. If it is the mono-color fetch many are expecting, Land based Mill could become a Thing, using Mind Grind, Mind Funeral and even Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker, not to mention Dimir Charm. (And I am so getting my Mirko's altered to depict Mirko Cro-Cop! 'Land card hospital, non-land cemetery!')
Definitely going to start noting this sort of thing in the future. Upon further reflection, I really should have shown my lifepad to the judge and pointed out that there's no way that Titan has been on the battlefield and able to attack for 2 turns, as evidenced by my life total changes... but I was so flustered by my opponent just bold faced lying to me and the judge like that (and in an event that is lauded for its friendly and community focused 'coming together for a great cause and playing magic to honor those we've lost' that someone would stoop to such disgusting levels)
Live and learn, but if I ever play that opponent again or see him paired vs any of my friends, I'm letting them know up front he's a cheater and they better watch him like a hawk.
The only time I could see it helping us is if Hollow One and Death Shadow make a big rise and make us want to sideboard a few copies of Leyline of the Void because those matchups go from hard to very easy if you are able to draw the Leyline in your opening hand.
Meekstone would be another one that would really be a big help against aggro decks.
Propaganda is one that is probably too slow, but might be another good reprint for us (or blue based control/prison anyway)
I suspect that Counterspell might even be playable in Mill if we wanted to go into a more controlling shell, but who knows if the deck would feel too powered down to go that route, might have to rebuild the whole thing from that angle.
I think Counterspell actually helps us because it is strictly worse than Logic Knot against us. Being able to exile your whole graveyard to turn off future visions of beyond or surgical or whatever else is a huge swing in the control matchups.
This card truly slows the game down and makes Mill a control match-up. It gets better the longer a game goes.