Here are all matchups the mill player had at GPLA, hope this would help:
DAY1
ROUND 1/2 BYE
3 GRIXIS CONTROL WIN
4 INFECT WIN
5 BURN WIN
6 TRON WIN
7 AFFINITY(against Saito Tomoharu) WIN
8 NAHIRI CONTROL DRAW
9 TRON(against Joe Lossett) WIN
DAY2
10 JUND LOSE
11 SCAPESHIFT LOSE
12 ZOO WIN
13 NAHIRI CONTROL LOSE
14 BLUE MOON LOSE
15 JESKAI CONTROL DRAW
So I think we should discuss more on the Jeskai and Jund matchups. Jund is not very favorable in my experience. It's not an easy deck to side against either as nothing really hinders jund by itself. What can we do to improve this matchup? Jeskai I feel will be alright with X amount of dispel and GY hate to combat nahiri now. That matchup has always been in mill's favor but now nahiri has changed things.
Edit: is jamming 4 RiP in the side bad? It protects us from Emrakul especially and really can hinder Jund. A 0/1 Goyf, a 2/2 Slime aren't that hard to race. I can't really think of much that would make a bigger impact in the jund matches.
I run 4 LotV(Leyline of the Void) in the sideboard and the only problem I have had is with scapeshift nahiri...That matchup is tough.
Any Nahiri combo it's just a matter of how fast you can rid yourself of that emrakul. Odds are the first games a loss but with extirpate/surgical and LotV you should have no trouble with the rest. Early game Crabs/Manic scribes could help, as well as Jace's Phantasm
Jund is tough because it's everything we don't want to see. I am still trying to figure out the best sideboard options for that match
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
So I think we should discuss more on the Jeskai and Jund matchups. Jund is not very favorable in my experience. It's not an easy deck to side against either as nothing really hinders jund by itself. What can we do to improve this matchup? Jeskai I feel will be alright with X amount of dispel and GY hate to combat nahiri now. That matchup has always been in mill's favor but now nahiri has changed things.
Edit: is jamming 4 RiP in the side bad? It protects us from Emrakul especially and really can hinder Jund. A 0/1 Goyf, a 2/2 Slime aren't that hard to race. I can't really think of much that would make a bigger impact in the jund matches.
I think that jund can be pretty much handled with GY hate, same with jeskai. MD GY hate is the way to go. IMO, you don't want RiP neither Leyline of the Void, what you want is Nihil spellbombs and Relics. The reason is that Nahiri will exile your enchantments with her -2 but she can't do it to artifacts, and both enchantments pretty much screw with your Visions from Beyond. What's even worse is that their utility is very limited. I prefer the artifacts since you can cycle them if you draw them early, they are one shot and won't disrupt VoB as much, relatively less vulnerable, and cost less to cast.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
My only issue is the other options against Jund for GY hate. All of those besides RiP are temporary and Leyline is only good if you open with it. My argument with RiP is that it makes Goyf 0/1's and shuts down Scavenging Ooze. Those two cards are nearly always what beat us. Jund making us discard will be in vain if they can't do any damage without finding their Man Lands. It will just turn into a top deck fest and our spells are significantly better if we don't have a body beating on us. This is on top of Bridge or Ghostly Prison.
While I understand your reasoning behind the Spellbombs, I am unsure if they are better than RiP of you are playing white at this time. As much as I praise Spellbombs, Nahiri can only do so much. If you are dedicating 4 slots to grave hate regardless then RiP seems incredibly powerful against Jeskai Nahiri. Realistically we will be putting their Nahiri in the graveyard so Jeskai, in theory, shouldn't be able to keep up with 4 RiP. Mesmeric Orb increases our chance to mill a copy, but at the same time acts as a source to cycle through our deck to find our other copies. Nahiri doesn't have to worry about removing our permanents either. If we aren't applying damage then she's going to ultimate in 2 turns after you play her. Even then we still have to hit their one Emrakul and that doesnt always happen when we need it to.
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"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Against jund you should side in some more removal. If you're worried about goyfs and scooze then things like smother and path will do the trick. You are going to mill most of their creatures and whatever hits the board can just be removed. The problem with RiP is it shuts off VoB so I don't recommend running both. Actually, a smart jeskai player would -2 Nahiri because they don't care how much you mill them, Emrakul will shuffle their GY. after all, they are playing the long game.
Regarding Bridge vs Prison, I think Prison might be better versus fast decks (naya, merfolk, burn, elves, etc...) since these decks run many small creatures and you don't have time to empty your hand before they kill you and they also pack more artifact hate than enchantment hate.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
I play 4 Path and that's about as much removal as you can fit to keep the fast consistent mill going. Removal isn't always enough unfortunately against Jund because they will just replace the creature. Statistically speaking you can't rely on them just milling their other creatures. They have just as much of a chance to mill something else and draw their creatures instead.
My experience with Nahiri comes from me being a Jeskai player. It's the deck that I play 90% of the time and have for a few years now. Nahiri is new so my experiences are few with her currently but in the games ive played against Jeskai Nahiri RiP forces an answer or they more than Likely lose in the end.
If we're playing 4x copies regardless, then forcing their Nahiri to stall is what we want to do. It allows for us to dig for Surgical, Crypt Incursion or another RiP for example. If they are forced to not find Emrakul then we are in an okay spot and more than likely have them on the backs of their heels. Ensnaring Bridge, if you run it, can also stop Emrakul digging allowing you to stall finding your Emrakul Answers in the meantime.
This is comparable to the "It dies to Bolt" debate. Just because they CAN answer it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be played. Besides if you t2 RiP you still can hit them with X amount of mill and potentially send more nahiri to the Exile in the meantime. I find my self replacing Manic Scribe with RiP because the amount of removal makes him very lackluster G2.
Played mill at both my modern events this week, 4-1 on wendnesday, 3-2 today. I 100% gave my second round opponent the win. I should have been 4-1 again. Rip, s happens tho eh? Just a report on how my decks doing, still going well, still laughably fun. You should have seen the twitch chat when i Crypt Incurred for 48 life against zoo lol
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
By the way, this is the revamped list I'm running. The major difference between my list and Rokn's would be the Souls vs Ghostly Prison. The problem I see with the prison is that after game 1 people are typically boarding in more artifact/enchantment removal for games 2 and 3. If that prison disappears you can find yourself in a world of hurt real quick. I love clogging the board with lingering souls and the offensive capability those little buggers provide. Especially after milling them with an orb.
“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
Looks pretty solid. I'm debating on including Souls again in my list. With Mesmeric Orb it seems like a solid stall card that I can turn aggressive if need be. One of the biggest differences with my list now is that I've cut Jaces Phantasm and I'm back on the pure mill train. I kept seeing phantasm at awkward times. Unfortunately I haven't gotten enough of the t1 Phantasm t2 Glimpse or similar plays to make me feel like he's justified.
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"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Really? That's still so bizarre to me. I kill people with mill and combat almost at an equal rate. Not only that, a turn one phantasm has saved my life numerous times by eating a bolt in response to a glimpse or an archive trap because they're terrified of a 5/5 flier
*we know how much 1 life makes a difference in the burn matchup, one of our creatures eating a bolt feels unbelievably good*
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
I think his problems are fixed tbh by splashing white. it just has so many answers.
There is literally no white in his deck, what problems are he answering?
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
Not only that, I think manic scribe is bad, it's a bad 2 drop. I think wall of omens is MUCH better in that slot. Blocks better and provides even more card draw in a land that is already draw heavy without a lot of land.
The only reason i don't run it is because i topped out at 8 creatures, those 4 creature slots are where my paths are and I'm not dropping them, amazing creature removal that can also hit my own stuff that in the right scenario can be game winning
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
UB mill has a lot of downfalls which is why we opt for white, it gives us removal, life gain, hate, etc... things that UB doesn't have access to. The GP UB mill deck was a pretty mediocre variant and was missing lots of cards. Not running removal or sweepers is dumb.
In all my testing, Manic Scribe has only activated once so to me it was a 0/3 mill 3 for 1B most of the time so I don't like him at all. My current iteration (for testing only) runs a total of 14 draw spells (total draw power of 22 cards), 10 one shot mill spells, 8 continuous mill spells, and the rest are tech cards. This list is heavy on draw which is why I don't run bridges, but you always have spells to play.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
I think his problems are fixed tbh by splashing white. it just has so many answers.
There is literally no white in his deck, what problems are he answering?
With white we get path to exile. That in it self makes infect a better match up since we now have a way to kill infect creature's while maybe getting a proc for archive trap.
I have played around with ensnaring bridge for a long time and im going to be testing ghostly prison in place of the bridge since a lot of the weenie creature decks get below the bridge before its completely turned on.
We get Stoney silence as a SB card that increases our match up against robots massively.
We get access to disenchant which is a better answer to leyline of sanctity then artifacts or our current hate has.
We also get access to leyline of sanctity against the burn match up greatly increasing our odds against them.
The list he took in has no kill spells and i feel any mill deck should at least run a playset of something to kill creatures. The decks that have killed me have always been aggro decks so we need a way to sure up that matchup. The more i look at the ghostly prison/Mesmeric Orb combo the more i like the idea of punishing opponents this way and forcing to make choices to advance their game state or attack me.
Aggro matchups are going to be harder for them since im hoping they wont have enough open mana to go all out attacking with a prison out.
UB mill has a lot of downfalls which is why we opt for white, it gives us removal, life gain, hate, etc... things that UB doesn't have access to. The GP UB mill deck was a pretty mediocre variant and was missing lots of cards. Not running removal or sweepers is dumb.
In all my testing, Manic Scribe has only activated once so to me it was a 0/3 mill 3 for 1B most of the time so I don't like him at all. My current iteration (for testing only) runs a total of 14 draw spells (total draw power of 22 cards), 10 one shot mill spells, 8 continuous mill spells, and the rest are tech cards. This list is heavy on draw which is why I don't run bridges, but you always have spells to play.
On cell phone/mobile phone sorry for the double post.
Manic scribe seems like he gets value from Mesmeric Orbs so having him partnered i think is important to give him value. Having a mill 6 and a chump blocker isn't entirely irrelevant. Yes it dies to removal but so does most things in this format so its a moot point.
If they keep him and dont have a way of dealing with him or leave him he can quickly become a value play milling 9 or even more before death.
Im dropping bridges (thinking about running 1 SB for difficult matchups) and runing ghostly prisons mb so that Jace's Phantasm is not worthless and allows me to have a alt win condition. Its a flyer so the evasion can be difficult to deal with.
Also visions of beyond does not play well with ensnaring bridge but ghostly prison does. I have visions now to increase draw and push the mill plan while still having a soft lock on creatures with prison.
I can def seeing having a board with chump blockers having a Mesmeric Orb out and opponent tapping for permission to attack and me playing a vision to draw into more Orbs to punish the tapping. Block with chumps, mill my turn, play more orb/s mill 16 or something gross.
I have tried both 4 and 3 leyline of sanctity, but, quickly, quickly realized they are almost useless in the burn matchup. I would recommend sticking with the meta life gain option profane memento. Or I just go with a playset of crypt incursion (3mb 1sb) and 2 rest for the weary. Its plenty and I *almost* never lose to burn. I've been playing mill in 10 competitive matches per week for awhile, so I've got quite a bit of experience with the deck
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
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CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
So I think we should discuss more on the Jeskai and Jund matchups. Jund is not very favorable in my experience. It's not an easy deck to side against either as nothing really hinders jund by itself. What can we do to improve this matchup? Jeskai I feel will be alright with X amount of dispel and GY hate to combat nahiri now. That matchup has always been in mill's favor but now nahiri has changed things.
Edit: is jamming 4 RiP in the side bad? It protects us from Emrakul especially and really can hinder Jund. A 0/1 Goyf, a 2/2 Slime aren't that hard to race. I can't really think of much that would make a bigger impact in the jund matches.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Any Nahiri combo it's just a matter of how fast you can rid yourself of that emrakul. Odds are the first games a loss but with extirpate/surgical and LotV you should have no trouble with the rest. Early game Crabs/Manic scribes could help, as well as Jace's Phantasm
Jund is tough because it's everything we don't want to see. I am still trying to figure out the best sideboard options for that match
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
I think that jund can be pretty much handled with GY hate, same with jeskai. MD GY hate is the way to go. IMO, you don't want RiP neither Leyline of the Void, what you want is Nihil spellbombs and Relics. The reason is that Nahiri will exile your enchantments with her -2 but she can't do it to artifacts, and both enchantments pretty much screw with your Visions from Beyond. What's even worse is that their utility is very limited. I prefer the artifacts since you can cycle them if you draw them early, they are one shot and won't disrupt VoB as much, relatively less vulnerable, and cost less to cast.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
While I understand your reasoning behind the Spellbombs, I am unsure if they are better than RiP of you are playing white at this time. As much as I praise Spellbombs, Nahiri can only do so much. If you are dedicating 4 slots to grave hate regardless then RiP seems incredibly powerful against Jeskai Nahiri. Realistically we will be putting their Nahiri in the graveyard so Jeskai, in theory, shouldn't be able to keep up with 4 RiP. Mesmeric Orb increases our chance to mill a copy, but at the same time acts as a source to cycle through our deck to find our other copies. Nahiri doesn't have to worry about removing our permanents either. If we aren't applying damage then she's going to ultimate in 2 turns after you play her. Even then we still have to hit their one Emrakul and that doesnt always happen when we need it to.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Regarding Bridge vs Prison, I think Prison might be better versus fast decks (naya, merfolk, burn, elves, etc...) since these decks run many small creatures and you don't have time to empty your hand before they kill you and they also pack more artifact hate than enchantment hate.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
My experience with Nahiri comes from me being a Jeskai player. It's the deck that I play 90% of the time and have for a few years now. Nahiri is new so my experiences are few with her currently but in the games ive played against Jeskai Nahiri RiP forces an answer or they more than Likely lose in the end.
If we're playing 4x copies regardless, then forcing their Nahiri to stall is what we want to do. It allows for us to dig for Surgical, Crypt Incursion or another RiP for example. If they are forced to not find Emrakul then we are in an okay spot and more than likely have them on the backs of their heels. Ensnaring Bridge, if you run it, can also stop Emrakul digging allowing you to stall finding your Emrakul Answers in the meantime.
This is comparable to the "It dies to Bolt" debate. Just because they CAN answer it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be played. Besides if you t2 RiP you still can hit them with X amount of mill and potentially send more nahiri to the Exile in the meantime. I find my self replacing Manic Scribe with RiP because the amount of removal makes him very lackluster G2.
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"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Hedron Crab
4 Jace's Phantasm
4 Path to Exile
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Lingering Souls
3 Mesmeric Orb
3 Mind Funeral
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Languish
2 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Extirpate
2 Rest for the Weary
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Engineered Explosives
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
*we know how much 1 life makes a difference in the burn matchup, one of our creatures eating a bolt feels unbelievably good*
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-about-nothing-ub-mill-modern
I think his problems are fixed tbh by splashing white. it just has so many answers.
There is literally no white in his deck, what problems are he answering?
The only reason i don't run it is because i topped out at 8 creatures, those 4 creature slots are where my paths are and I'm not dropping them, amazing creature removal that can also hit my own stuff that in the right scenario can be game winning
In all my testing, Manic Scribe has only activated once so to me it was a 0/3 mill 3 for 1B most of the time so I don't like him at all. My current iteration (for testing only) runs a total of 14 draw spells (total draw power of 22 cards), 10 one shot mill spells, 8 continuous mill spells, and the rest are tech cards. This list is heavy on draw which is why I don't run bridges, but you always have spells to play.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
With white we get path to exile. That in it self makes infect a better match up since we now have a way to kill infect creature's while maybe getting a proc for archive trap.
I have played around with ensnaring bridge for a long time and im going to be testing ghostly prison in place of the bridge since a lot of the weenie creature decks get below the bridge before its completely turned on.
We get Stoney silence as a SB card that increases our match up against robots massively.
We get access to disenchant which is a better answer to leyline of sanctity then artifacts or our current hate has.
We also get access to leyline of sanctity against the burn match up greatly increasing our odds against them.
The list he took in has no kill spells and i feel any mill deck should at least run a playset of something to kill creatures. The decks that have killed me have always been aggro decks so we need a way to sure up that matchup. The more i look at the ghostly prison/Mesmeric Orb combo the more i like the idea of punishing opponents this way and forcing to make choices to advance their game state or attack me.
Aggro matchups are going to be harder for them since im hoping they wont have enough open mana to go all out attacking with a prison out.
On cell phone/mobile phone sorry for the double post.
Manic scribe seems like he gets value from Mesmeric Orbs so having him partnered i think is important to give him value. Having a mill 6 and a chump blocker isn't entirely irrelevant. Yes it dies to removal but so does most things in this format so its a moot point.
If they keep him and dont have a way of dealing with him or leave him he can quickly become a value play milling 9 or even more before death.
Im dropping bridges (thinking about running 1 SB for difficult matchups) and runing ghostly prisons mb so that Jace's Phantasm is not worthless and allows me to have a alt win condition. Its a flyer so the evasion can be difficult to deal with.
Also visions of beyond does not play well with ensnaring bridge but ghostly prison does. I have visions now to increase draw and push the mill plan while still having a soft lock on creatures with prison.
I can def seeing having a board with chump blockers having a Mesmeric Orb out and opponent tapping for permission to attack and me playing a vision to draw into more Orbs to punish the tapping. Block with chumps, mill my turn, play more orb/s mill 16 or something gross.