Zinamogg you might be right. I took one out just because it felt wrong to go to 14 lands and i wanted 18 mana sources. Glad you like the build :). Ive had a lot of fun tinkering so far
I am not a fan of rabblemaster in any meta personally... The stuff we have going right now is just so much better for the mana investment. Its a decent card though... I just have a bias against the "other goblins must attack" clause. Ive never wanted to run it in any of my builds for that reason
Yep, not about Rabblemaster in this specific deck at all - it just doesn't do what we need. HOWEVER - I do think the ban opens up the ability to brew an all-in red stompy deck that tries to lock out quickly with moon or chalice, and then drop rabble. Twin ATE these kind of strategies and it now seems at least feasible.
Wow. This list looks really good. I wonder if we can port some of these ideals into med rages turn 3 list. I think I would still side some pd. In the matches that he is good in he is amazing, like merfolk.
Wow. This list looks really good. I wonder if we can port some of these ideals into med rages turn 3 list. I think I would still side some pd. In the matches that he is good in he is amazing, like merfolk.
Swiftspear and reckless combined with free cantrips is a good package to think about for that build. It doesnt matter that probe is blue since it replaces itself.
I do like PD as a possible sideboard card. That is a very good point.
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The biggest problem I'm having with sideboard with the turn 3 version is I can't decide that u want to sideboard at all. Anything I side in to disrupt my opponent means I am playing that much slower as well. I often feel like I just need to beat them first.ie if I'm on the play and can kill the twin player on turn 4 or turn 3 on the draw then I just win. If not I'm not sure disrupting their combo really helps me that much to get the eventual win.
I tend to only bring in SB cards if it's an absolute bomb against that deck. Or if the deck is a bad matchup without the sideboard card(s).
Example: Affinity card get down bigger blockers at the same speed we can get down goblins.
I find Shattering Spree + Forked Bolt can handle most of the blockers, and move the power back in our favor.
But for the most part - I bring in 1-2 sideboard cards a match; and take out something like 1 Mutagenic/1 Fury.
@ jwelt - I like your second list a lot. Might get around to trying it out today. Maybe even with a singleton Become Immense. As far as merging the two lists (that a couple of people are suggesting) - all I can suggest to people is to not play Chancellor of the Forge with Cantrips. It's in the deck because there's only something like a 5% chance of drawing it by turn 3 if it's not in our opening hand. Each Cantrip will bring that % up 2% or so.
As far as the bannings:
Kind of disappointed in the Twin banning. It was a good matchup for me.
Summer Bloom being banned is great though.
I'm going to predict a rise in lifegain decks unfortunately. A lot of them were held down by both of these decks.
Unrelated side note: Cloud of Faeries being banned in pauper might bright me back to that format.
Anyone else finds this ironic, given that Modern has been known as a Turn 3 format pretty much since its inception? It just sounds like a majorly unrealistic goal to set there.
Probably great in goldfishing, since you don't have to be interactive.
He tested against infect and elves. Two matchups where nost people would want lightning bolt...
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Probably great in goldfishing, since you don't have to be interactive.
He tested against infect and elves. Two matchups where nost people would want lightning bolt...
Right, I missed that.
I wonder about the decision to play Monastery Swiftspear with just 14 spells, even if most of them are cantrips. I understand that conceptially the SS plays different than it does in Burn (e.g., we're simply looking for it to be better than other 1-drops, not to grow into a crushing behemoth every turn) -- but even so ti seems like it could be a bit underwhelming, especially in the absence of Mutagenic Growth.
Probably great in goldfishing, since you don't have to be interactive.
He tested against infect and elves. Two matchups where nost people would want lightning bolt...
Right, I missed that.
I wonder about the decision to play Monastery Swiftspear with just 14 spells, even if most of them are cantrips. I understand that conceptially the SS plays different than it does in Burn (e.g., we're simply looking for it to be better than other 1-drops, not to grow into a crushing behemoth every turn) -- but even so ti seems like it could be a bit underwhelming, especially in the absence of Mutagenic Growth.
I understand, but with the current configuration it is often goblin guide 5-8 in practice. Sometimes it becomes 3/3 and 4/4. I like her interaction with mutagenic, but i dont like mutagenic if she isnt on the battlefield. I have found that mutagenic doesnt provide enough upside to the times it just runs out of gas. The only real noncreature spell in the deck is atarkas, because all the others cantrip. Having that high of a spell count without effectively reducing creatures is why its working (actually i believe the cantrips effictively increase our creature %). Mutagenic just feels so lackluster next to these other spelks.
Swifts is guide 5-8. Sometimes its a poor loyalist imitation, but even that aint bad. Its never a bad card in this deck. And much better than other options.
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I understand, but with the current configuration it is often goblin guide 5-8 in practice. Sometimes it becomes 3/3 and 4/4. I like her interaction with mutagenic, but i dont like mutagenic if she isnt on the battlefield. I have found that mutagenic doesnt provide enough upside to the times it just runs out of gas. The only real noncreature spell in the deck is atarkas, because all the others cantrip. Having that high of a spell count without effectively reducing creatures is why its working (actually i believe the cantrips effictively increase our creature %). Mutagenic just feels so lackluster next to these other spelks.
Swifts is guide 5-8. Sometimes its a poor loyalist imitation, but even that aint bad. Its never a bad card in this deck. And much better than other options.
I understand the plan for her to simply be Guide 5-8. The question is whether you can consistently pump her so that she's better than other 2-attack 1-drops. Unless you cast at least 2 spells in the first three rounds, she's just a glorified Goblin Cohort.
The reason to keep Mutagenic is that it saves Guide and SS (and Piledriver when you have it in) from bolt. But depending on what you're planning to do, you may or may not be worried about this.
I understand, but with the current configuration it is often goblin guide 5-8 in practice. Sometimes it becomes 3/3 and 4/4. I like her interaction with mutagenic, but i dont like mutagenic if she isnt on the battlefield. I have found that mutagenic doesnt provide enough upside to the times it just runs out of gas. The only real noncreature spell in the deck is atarkas, because all the others cantrip. Having that high of a spell count without effectively reducing creatures is why its working (actually i believe the cantrips effictively increase our creature %). Mutagenic just feels so lackluster next to these other spelks.
Swifts is guide 5-8. Sometimes its a poor loyalist imitation, but even that aint bad. Its never a bad card in this deck. And much better than other options.
I understand the plan for her to simply be Guide 5-8. The question is whether you can consistently pump her so that she's better than other 2-attack 1-drops. Unless you cast at least 2 spells in the first three rounds, she's just a glorified Goblin Cohort.
The reason to keep Mutagenic is that it saves Guide and SS (and Piledriver when you have it in) from bolt. But depending on what you're planning to do, you may or may not be worried about this.
Haste already makes this creature better than goblin cohort. With 14 spells (12 cantrips) you will likely draw 2 each game. More than enough to justify swiftspear.
What other creatures would you see in that slot? In my mind the other options are mogg fanatic, a couple 2 drops like war marshal or piledriver. I just think the upside of swiftspear is much better than all of those in this build. Its not a perfect card fir the deck, but working with whats available it seems to be the best choice.
How to increase the spell count without decreasing the creature count further? With 10 pump effects and 4 seiftspears, i think the current ratio is correct. Perhaps a couple krenkos command? Pumps both strategies.
Have you tested the deck? Not sure this discussion is as helpful otherwise...
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I understand, but with the current configuration it is often goblin guide 5-8 in practice. Sometimes it becomes 3/3 and 4/4. I like her interaction with mutagenic, but i dont like mutagenic if she isnt on the battlefield. I have found that mutagenic doesnt provide enough upside to the times it just runs out of gas. The only real noncreature spell in the deck is atarkas, because all the others cantrip. Having that high of a spell count without effectively reducing creatures is why its working (actually i believe the cantrips effictively increase our creature %). Mutagenic just feels so lackluster next to these other spelks.
Swifts is guide 5-8. Sometimes its a poor loyalist imitation, but even that aint bad. Its never a bad card in this deck. And much better than other options.
I understand the plan for her to simply be Guide 5-8. The question is whether you can consistently pump her so that she's better than other 2-attack 1-drops. Unless you cast at least 2 spells in the first three rounds, she's just a glorified Goblin Cohort.
The reason to keep Mutagenic is that it saves Guide and SS (and Piledriver when you have it in) from bolt. But depending on what you're planning to do, you may or may not be worried about this.
Haste already makes this creature better than goblin cohort. With 14 spells (12 cantrips) you will likely draw 2 each game. More than enough to justify swiftspear.
What other creatures would you see in that slot? In my mind the other options are mogg fanatic, a couple 2 drops like war marshal or piledriver. I just think the upside of swiftspear is much better than all of those in this build. Its not a perfect card fir the deck, but working with whats available it seems to be the best choice.
How to increase the spell count without decreasing the creature count further? With 10 pump effects and 4 seiftspears, i think the current ratio is correct. Perhaps a couple krenkos command? Pumps both strategies.
Have you tested the deck? Not sure this discussion is as helpful otherwise...
It is true that haste allows you to pick and choose your spots (especially in cases when you don't play her T1). But that doesn't make her strictly better, as she's progressively less valuable as the game goes on. Also, I feel like the bushwhackers make non-haste 1-drops with 2 power more playable.
I have her in a deck that had 16 spells, including 6-7 token commands -- the idea was to maximize the likelihood to follow her up with a command on T2 and a summons/bolt + bushwhacker on T3. This strategy was chosen so that it maximizes both FSD and SS with the same set of cards. The deck list is a couple of pages back, but I'm still tinkering with it.
Anyway, I was merely asking the question whether you think/find 12 spells enough.
Taylorswift is not the best card for goblins; however, she is a great card for this new brew called - Goblin Storm. Plus, most games in any goblin deck will be over quickly so long as the opp isn't packing sweepers and overloaded on spot removal. Meaning, she is going to get more bursts than you might think. Something I've learned by building many different types of goblin decks is that every goblin deck brings a slight variation capitalizes on certain off brands cards like swiftspear. I have a mono red goblins deck that capitalizes on Vexing Devil and Thunderous Wrath. In another I have Kadulotha and Ornithopters. Now, I can add this new one.
Alright, in MedRage style, I did some extensive goldfishing. Not as much as he does, but after 51 games my hands actually started to hurt from shuffling!
The list is as follows:
I am going to officially name the deck "Goblin Surge" (more appropriate than "goblin storm" I think)
Generally I mulligan any hand with 4+ or 0 lands. Sometimes I mull a hand with no one drops. Generally I mull hands with bad draws. I used my best judgement each game. A win is considered at the point when damage reaches 18 or higher (fetches and shocks).
So these were my results in 51 games:
T2 - 0 games T3 - 24 games (~50%)
T4 - 18 games (~30%)
T5+ - 9 games (~20%)
Flooded - 6 games
Mana screw - 4 games
Mulligans - 4 games
The best T3 results came from a T1 goblin guide, Swiftspear, or Foundry Street Denizen. I started keeping track of how many times Swiftspear got buffed and it was so frequent that I stopped making tally marks. Swiftspear is incredibly effective in this deck. It only needs 1-2 spells to make it better than other options for 1cmc. Monastery Swiftspear's greatest value is as an alternative T1 play to Guide, and FSD. Sometimes when you have all three in your opening hand - FSD or MSS could be the right choice depending on what else you have. With 8 bushwhackers, FSD is a very viable play after T1 as it often gains haste and a buff right away. Most of the T3 wins were between 18-20 damage (a few were very high), while a good share of the T4 wins were much higher than 20 damage.
About half of the T5+ games were due to screw/flood - the other half were due to just deck failure and bad draws. The ratio of wins has been great, and the T3 consistency is shocking. I think this deck is consistently faster than any of the other aggro decks trying to kill you on or before T4.
After Zinamogg's idea to alter the mana base from 15land/3SSG to 14land/4SSG I gave that a try for the sake of the goldfish. I think that the 15/3 split was possibly better. I am going to stay with the 14/4 split for now because of the 3cmc sideboard cards. I really wish I had original zendikar red fetches because I think that the following would be ideal:
The amount of manamorphose and BTE make green mana super easy to get even if you don't get your Stomping ground.
In this deck I think that Reckless Bushwhacker is slightly better than Goblin Bushwhacker because of his base P/T and ability to chain off of BTE.
I wish I was a math wiz - I would love to know how the 8 free cantrips affect ratios in the deck. I know on paper it is 28 creatures and 14 spells, but with the 8 cantrips it feels like the virtual count is much better. Each cantrip counts for two cards. Perhaps MedRage can help here, but I feel like the virtual ratios are as follows:
Actual creature count = 28/60 = 47%
Actual Spell Count = 14/60 = 23%
Actual Mana count = 18/60 = 30%
Now subtracting the 8 cantrips. It makes sense to me to evaluate in this way because of the amount of cards in the deck seen each game. Cantrips definitely change the percentages, and I don't know the best way to account for that, so my best guess is to subtract them from the total (because they replace themselves) while counting them all as spells (because they still count for switfspear and reckless). At the very least it gives you an idea of what is going on...
I know the numbers don't add to 100% - and they shouldn't. This is the virtual card advantage built into the deck when using free cantrips. I believe this is why the T3-4 consistency is about 80%. I guess "goblin surge" is a pseudo blue deck in the same sense that Tarmogoyf is a blue creature LOL. What I experience playing the deck is probably somewhere between actual and virtual card percentages. The more cantrips you draw, the closer your percentages come to the virtual count.
Loving this deck!
Edit - added some more details regarding the goldfishing conditions. Added/ tweaked some more thoughts throughout.
I will provide another update after I reach 100 goldfish games.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I can help you tho. I got 10 fetchs so I'm going to goldfish the 14+4 version with that mana config for you
I'm ill at home so this will help to entertain me.
Keep the good work!
I will! I did another 30 games before I went to bed and the ratio remained about the same. 20 games to go to reach that magic 100 games... How was your testing against affinity? Thanks for helping. Inevitably our work will benefit the goblin community, even if this build doesn't turn out to be the best one.
Right now, I feel like I might try a 3/3 split with reckless and atarka's. The haste is very relevant on the new bushwhacker though...
I am really working hard on goblins to be ready for the scg regional championship in 2 weeks. Trying to determine the meta is going to be tough. I feel that being a fast aggro with access to blood moon (and sometimes T2) is going to be a huge asset.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Well, vs Affinity was tough. We played 9 games and went 5-4. I was really missing Mogg Fanatic. She beated me every time she played Vault Skirge. On the other hand, she couldn't stop me every time I drawed like:
T1 Tailor, T2 Gitaxian (drawed Manamorphose), Emissary, Manamorphose (drawed another emissary), Emissary, Reckless --> Attack for 12
Hands like this one happened many times while playing. They are not rare at all. Sometimes you got the cards in hand or you just draw them to "complete" a mini combo. It's really fun to play this build.
I have had many turns like that as well. I find the deck sort of "goes off" and you can start chaining all the free spells (including BTE). I really like how manamorphose can fix mana from BTE so you can cast double 2-drops or goblin bushwhacker. With the number of haste enablers in the deck (8 total), I think Devastating Summons is a very good candidate for inclusion in the deck (especially if not running Spirit guides). The problem is - how to fit it? This is a very tight list!
What do you guys think is a better option in the sideboard? Forked Bolt or Electrickery? Mostly for affinity. My thinking is that electrickery is an instant and can nuke all their lands also.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
If I'd to choose between those two I'd say Forked Bolt seems better.
I always run 2 Ancient Grudge in the side. I am looking to supplement those. Maybe I will do 3 Ancient Grudge. All good points regarding electrickery.
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Many of those T5+Wins were because of manaflood/Mulligans. This mana base feels OK. Never had problems getting green. Now, feelings about playing with it:
- There are situations where FSD&Tailor feels awkward. You just can't decide which one play because your actual hand only have another creature and a spell. Or you just draw 2-1 of them plus lands & Grenade.
- It's hard to decide when to mulligan.
- Sometimes you just screw yourself when you decide to add R/G with Manamorphose and then you draw a Goblin Bushwhacker. I've just ended adding always R/R.
- Hardest to pilot than MedRage's list. And I kinda feel we're still far from his results.
I just don't know how to express it but It feels that the deck still needs "something".
Thanks for the additional testing!
Your T5+ % is much higher than mine was in 80 games. Do you feel the manabase was a contributing factor? I will finish my 100 goldfish games after work and provide an update.
I always go for R/R with Manamorphose because your liklihood of drawing into an atarka's command is extremely low. I only go for R/G off of it when I already have one in hand.
I agree - making the call of which T1 dude to drop when you have the option of both is tough. I have found that probability plays most into my decision - what is the composition in my hand, and the chances I have of drawing spells/creatures. I usually choose FSD T1 over MSS because of that probability, unless I have a couple of cantrips in hand. Another reason to lead with FSD most of the time is that it does not have haste.
When playing actual decks, mulliganing decisions will be easier. Without contaxt, you are just hoping to draw a good curve. That's why I keep most hands that have 1-3 lands, no more or less. I only mulligan those away when I have a very very bad draw (like all cantrips or something).
I really like that this deck produces consistent T3 damage potential without running piledriver - this makes it resilient. I don't care if a guide or FSD gets bolted, and all 10 pump effects are removal proof (unless countered, but with twin gone...). Either way, this build adds to the brewing options in the thread. I don't think any build can top MedRage's current T3 list. My hope is to build something between the explosiveness of the T3 list and the resiliance of the no-lords decks I have been playing the last 2 months. So far, I think the deck does that quite well.
I feel like everything needed for the deck is present, but the composition can be tweaked and optimized. As is a 50% T3 win rate is very high. On the play, very few decks can stop such a thing from killing them, and even if they can interact, it will likely only delay us a turn from killing them. Once finished with the first 100 games, I will re-think the entire deck, and possibly try to change things up. And test again! The things I want to try over a longer period than initially considered:
Goblin Piledriver (who knows - with the amount of chaining, perhaps it is better than Atarka's as a 2-of, especially combined with the 8 haste effects)
Mutagenic Growth
Other 1-drop creatures (have to revisit my options)
IMO - the flex spots here could be any combination of the following
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Hello everyone! I'm relatively new and have been thinking about trying Goblins as my first Modern deck. From researching I decided to start with a No-Lords Rakdos variation. The discussion seems to be going in another Gruul direction, but I wonder if you could give me some pointers and feedback? This is the list I have brewed so far.
I wanted a little more interaction and removal with the Terminates. I'm wondering about the Warren Weirdings. I'm also undecided about the Piledriver and Jester numbers.
What I know about my local meta is that it has a R/G Tron, a Mono-U tron, a number of Control decks, and another number of U/R decks, including at least one sad ex-Twin player. There could be more archetypes... I'm not sure.
What do you guys think?
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Yep, not about Rabblemaster in this specific deck at all - it just doesn't do what we need. HOWEVER - I do think the ban opens up the ability to brew an all-in red stompy deck that tries to lock out quickly with moon or chalice, and then drop rabble. Twin ATE these kind of strategies and it now seems at least feasible.
Swiftspear and reckless combined with free cantrips is a good package to think about for that build. It doesnt matter that probe is blue since it replaces itself.
I do like PD as a possible sideboard card. That is a very good point.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I tend to only bring in SB cards if it's an absolute bomb against that deck. Or if the deck is a bad matchup without the sideboard card(s).
Example: Affinity card get down bigger blockers at the same speed we can get down goblins.
I find Shattering Spree + Forked Bolt can handle most of the blockers, and move the power back in our favor.
But for the most part - I bring in 1-2 sideboard cards a match; and take out something like 1 Mutagenic/1 Fury.
@ jwelt - I like your second list a lot. Might get around to trying it out today. Maybe even with a singleton Become Immense. As far as merging the two lists (that a couple of people are suggesting) - all I can suggest to people is to not play Chancellor of the Forge with Cantrips. It's in the deck because there's only something like a 5% chance of drawing it by turn 3 if it's not in our opening hand. Each Cantrip will bring that % up 2% or so.
As far as the bannings:
Kind of disappointed in the Twin banning. It was a good matchup for me.
Summer Bloom being banned is great though.
I'm going to predict a rise in lifegain decks unfortunately. A lot of them were held down by both of these decks.
Unrelated side note: Cloud of Faeries being banned in pauper might bright me back to that format.
Probably great in goldfishing, since you don't have to be interactive.
"We look for competitively viable decks that frequently win before the fourth turn. "
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/january-18-2016-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2016-01-18
Anyone else finds this ironic, given that Modern has been known as a Turn 3 format pretty much since its inception? It just sounds like a majorly unrealistic goal to set there.
He tested against infect and elves. Two matchups where nost people would want lightning bolt...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I wonder about the decision to play Monastery Swiftspear with just 14 spells, even if most of them are cantrips. I understand that conceptially the SS plays different than it does in Burn (e.g., we're simply looking for it to be better than other 1-drops, not to grow into a crushing behemoth every turn) -- but even so ti seems like it could be a bit underwhelming, especially in the absence of Mutagenic Growth.
I understand, but with the current configuration it is often goblin guide 5-8 in practice. Sometimes it becomes 3/3 and 4/4. I like her interaction with mutagenic, but i dont like mutagenic if she isnt on the battlefield. I have found that mutagenic doesnt provide enough upside to the times it just runs out of gas. The only real noncreature spell in the deck is atarkas, because all the others cantrip. Having that high of a spell count without effectively reducing creatures is why its working (actually i believe the cantrips effictively increase our creature %). Mutagenic just feels so lackluster next to these other spelks.
Swifts is guide 5-8. Sometimes its a poor loyalist imitation, but even that aint bad. Its never a bad card in this deck. And much better than other options.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I understand the plan for her to simply be Guide 5-8. The question is whether you can consistently pump her so that she's better than other 2-attack 1-drops. Unless you cast at least 2 spells in the first three rounds, she's just a glorified Goblin Cohort.
The reason to keep Mutagenic is that it saves Guide and SS (and Piledriver when you have it in) from bolt. But depending on what you're planning to do, you may or may not be worried about this.
Haste already makes this creature better than goblin cohort. With 14 spells (12 cantrips) you will likely draw 2 each game. More than enough to justify swiftspear.
What other creatures would you see in that slot? In my mind the other options are mogg fanatic, a couple 2 drops like war marshal or piledriver. I just think the upside of swiftspear is much better than all of those in this build. Its not a perfect card fir the deck, but working with whats available it seems to be the best choice.
How to increase the spell count without decreasing the creature count further? With 10 pump effects and 4 seiftspears, i think the current ratio is correct. Perhaps a couple krenkos command? Pumps both strategies.
Have you tested the deck? Not sure this discussion is as helpful otherwise...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
It is true that haste allows you to pick and choose your spots (especially in cases when you don't play her T1). But that doesn't make her strictly better, as she's progressively less valuable as the game goes on. Also, I feel like the bushwhackers make non-haste 1-drops with 2 power more playable.
I have her in a deck that had 16 spells, including 6-7 token commands -- the idea was to maximize the likelihood to follow her up with a command on T2 and a summons/bolt + bushwhacker on T3. This strategy was chosen so that it maximizes both FSD and SS with the same set of cards. The deck list is a couple of pages back, but I'm still tinkering with it.
Anyway, I was merely asking the question whether you think/find 12 spells enough.
Taylorswift is not the best card for goblins; however, she is a great card for this new brew called - Goblin Storm. Plus, most games in any goblin deck will be over quickly so long as the opp isn't packing sweepers and overloaded on spot removal. Meaning, she is going to get more bursts than you might think. Something I've learned by building many different types of goblin decks is that every goblin deck brings a slight variation capitalizes on certain off brands cards like swiftspear. I have a mono red goblins deck that capitalizes on Vexing Devil and Thunderous Wrath. In another I have Kadulotha and Ornithopters. Now, I can add this new one.
YOUTUBE CHANNEL: GOBOTS
The list is as follows:
I am going to officially name the deck "Goblin Surge" (more appropriate than "goblin storm" I think)
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
Spells (14):
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Atarka's Command
4x Manamorphose
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Copperline Gorge
3x Mountain
1x Stomping Ground
2x Electrickery
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Dolmen Gate
3x Blood Moon
2x Everlasting Torment
Generally I mulligan any hand with 4+ or 0 lands. Sometimes I mull a hand with no one drops. Generally I mull hands with bad draws. I used my best judgement each game. A win is considered at the point when damage reaches 18 or higher (fetches and shocks).
So these were my results in 51 games:
T2 - 0 games
T3 - 24 games (~50%)
T4 - 18 games (~30%)
T5+ - 9 games (~20%)
Flooded - 6 games
Mana screw - 4 games
Mulligans - 4 games
The best T3 results came from a T1 goblin guide, Swiftspear, or Foundry Street Denizen. I started keeping track of how many times Swiftspear got buffed and it was so frequent that I stopped making tally marks. Swiftspear is incredibly effective in this deck. It only needs 1-2 spells to make it better than other options for 1cmc. Monastery Swiftspear's greatest value is as an alternative T1 play to Guide, and FSD. Sometimes when you have all three in your opening hand - FSD or MSS could be the right choice depending on what else you have. With 8 bushwhackers, FSD is a very viable play after T1 as it often gains haste and a buff right away. Most of the T3 wins were between 18-20 damage (a few were very high), while a good share of the T4 wins were much higher than 20 damage.
About half of the T5+ games were due to screw/flood - the other half were due to just deck failure and bad draws. The ratio of wins has been great, and the T3 consistency is shocking. I think this deck is consistently faster than any of the other aggro decks trying to kill you on or before T4.
After Zinamogg's idea to alter the mana base from 15land/3SSG to 14land/4SSG I gave that a try for the sake of the goldfish. I think that the 15/3 split was possibly better. I am going to stay with the 14/4 split for now because of the 3cmc sideboard cards. I really wish I had original zendikar red fetches because I think that the following would be ideal:
The amount of manamorphose and BTE make green mana super easy to get even if you don't get your Stomping ground.
In this deck I think that Reckless Bushwhacker is slightly better than Goblin Bushwhacker because of his base P/T and ability to chain off of BTE.
I wish I was a math wiz - I would love to know how the 8 free cantrips affect ratios in the deck. I know on paper it is 28 creatures and 14 spells, but with the 8 cantrips it feels like the virtual count is much better. Each cantrip counts for two cards. Perhaps MedRage can help here, but I feel like the virtual ratios are as follows:
Actual creature count = 28/60 = 47%
Actual Spell Count = 14/60 = 23%
Actual Mana count = 18/60 = 30%
Now subtracting the 8 cantrips. It makes sense to me to evaluate in this way because of the amount of cards in the deck seen each game. Cantrips definitely change the percentages, and I don't know the best way to account for that, so my best guess is to subtract them from the total (because they replace themselves) while counting them all as spells (because they still count for switfspear and reckless). At the very least it gives you an idea of what is going on...
Virtual creature count = 28/52 = 54%
Virtual spell count = 14/52 = 27%
Virtual mana count = 18/52 = 34%
I know the numbers don't add to 100% - and they shouldn't. This is the virtual card advantage built into the deck when using free cantrips. I believe this is why the T3-4 consistency is about 80%. I guess "goblin surge" is a pseudo blue deck in the same sense that Tarmogoyf is a blue creature LOL. What I experience playing the deck is probably somewhere between actual and virtual card percentages. The more cantrips you draw, the closer your percentages come to the virtual count.
Loving this deck!
Edit - added some more details regarding the goldfishing conditions. Added/ tweaked some more thoughts throughout.
I will provide another update after I reach 100 goldfish games.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I will! I did another 30 games before I went to bed and the ratio remained about the same. 20 games to go to reach that magic 100 games... How was your testing against affinity? Thanks for helping. Inevitably our work will benefit the goblin community, even if this build doesn't turn out to be the best one.
Right now, I feel like I might try a 3/3 split with reckless and atarka's. The haste is very relevant on the new bushwhacker though...
I am really working hard on goblins to be ready for the scg regional championship in 2 weeks. Trying to determine the meta is going to be tough. I feel that being a fast aggro with access to blood moon (and sometimes T2) is going to be a huge asset.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Even 50 games is a pretty good sample already. I would't expect the ratios to change much over the extra set of 50.
I have had many turns like that as well. I find the deck sort of "goes off" and you can start chaining all the free spells (including BTE). I really like how manamorphose can fix mana from BTE so you can cast double 2-drops or goblin bushwhacker. With the number of haste enablers in the deck (8 total), I think Devastating Summons is a very good candidate for inclusion in the deck (especially if not running Spirit guides). The problem is - how to fit it? This is a very tight list!
What do you guys think is a better option in the sideboard? Forked Bolt or Electrickery? Mostly for affinity. My thinking is that electrickery is an instant and can nuke all their lands also.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I always run 2 Ancient Grudge in the side. I am looking to supplement those. Maybe I will do 3 Ancient Grudge. All good points regarding electrickery.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Thanks for the additional testing!
Your T5+ % is much higher than mine was in 80 games. Do you feel the manabase was a contributing factor? I will finish my 100 goldfish games after work and provide an update.
I always go for R/R with Manamorphose because your liklihood of drawing into an atarka's command is extremely low. I only go for R/G off of it when I already have one in hand.
I agree - making the call of which T1 dude to drop when you have the option of both is tough. I have found that probability plays most into my decision - what is the composition in my hand, and the chances I have of drawing spells/creatures. I usually choose FSD T1 over MSS because of that probability, unless I have a couple of cantrips in hand. Another reason to lead with FSD most of the time is that it does not have haste.
When playing actual decks, mulliganing decisions will be easier. Without contaxt, you are just hoping to draw a good curve. That's why I keep most hands that have 1-3 lands, no more or less. I only mulligan those away when I have a very very bad draw (like all cantrips or something).
I really like that this deck produces consistent T3 damage potential without running piledriver - this makes it resilient. I don't care if a guide or FSD gets bolted, and all 10 pump effects are removal proof (unless countered, but with twin gone...). Either way, this build adds to the brewing options in the thread. I don't think any build can top MedRage's current T3 list. My hope is to build something between the explosiveness of the T3 list and the resiliance of the no-lords decks I have been playing the last 2 months. So far, I think the deck does that quite well.
I feel like everything needed for the deck is present, but the composition can be tweaked and optimized. As is a 50% T3 win rate is very high. On the play, very few decks can stop such a thing from killing them, and even if they can interact, it will likely only delay us a turn from killing them. Once finished with the first 100 games, I will re-think the entire deck, and possibly try to change things up. And test again! The things I want to try over a longer period than initially considered:
Goblin Piledriver (who knows - with the amount of chaining, perhaps it is better than Atarka's as a 2-of, especially combined with the 8 haste effects)
Mutagenic Growth
Other 1-drop creatures (have to revisit my options)
IMO - the flex spots here could be any combination of the following
1 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Atarka's Command
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Foundry Street Denizen
Everything else has proven its consistency IMO. Abandoning the cantrips is pointless right now - I want to try and leverage them more.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
2x Goblin Piledriver
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Raging Goblin
4x Spike Jester
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Warren Weirding
Land base - 18
4x Auntie's Hovel
2x Dragonskull Summit
8x Mountain
4x Sulfurous Springs
1x Forked Bolt
1x Goblin Piledriver
2x Pillar of Flame
2x Pyrite Spellbomb
2x Rakdos Charm
3x Skullcrack
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Terminate
On tappedout: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/proto-gobbos
I wanted a little more interaction and removal with the Terminates. I'm wondering about the Warren Weirdings. I'm also undecided about the Piledriver and Jester numbers.
What I know about my local meta is that it has a R/G Tron, a Mono-U tron, a number of Control decks, and another number of U/R decks, including at least one sad ex-Twin player. There could be more archetypes... I'm not sure.
What do you guys think?