If you have played with Piledriver a long time ago, then the meta must have been different from what it is now. I know that Hogaak will definitely be banned, causing a shift in the meta really soon, but there are other decks now that didn't exist back then (Phoenix and Thopter being the newest additions). So comparing your past experiences with the current ones is not an equal comparison.
The power of him isn't that he can't be removed by blue spells (although that does help against UW Control, where they cannot bounce it with Cryptic Command, Jace, The Mind Sculptor or either Teferis) or that he can't be countered (he can indeed be countered, but counterspells are notoriously bad against us,because we run Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls); he is really good because he is a big threat, and needs to be answered. And when the opponent chooses to remove a Piledriver, that is one removal spell they cannot use on Matron or Ringleader.
What I was saying is that in the decks I mentioned, there are only very few creatures that can block Piledriver, and even if they happen to have one of those, we have Munitions Expert, Pashalik Mons, Tarfire, Mogg Fanatic and/or Cratermaker as removal, so we can swing through with a 11/2. And if they are a deck that play few big creatures, they would either have to block with something like a Reality Smasher, Primeval Titan, or Tarmogoyf, or take a lot of damage. This also makes it so that other goblins (like Warchief) have a bigger chance of not getting blocked/killed in combat.
As for Plague Engineer: when the opponent plays it, our main concern is getting rid of it, not getting in with Piledriver, so that argument is a bit loose. Any Goblin that survives that semi-sweeper is a big plus for us.
We are not an aggro deck, and we do not want to attack every turn. We are only going to attack when a) the opponent has no creatures and/or we need to race, or b) if we can win. Getting in with Piledriver is not our main way of winning (that would be swinging with (almost) everything and saccing it post combat with Sling-Gang), but it is a really good plan B that we can Matron for to swing for lethal out of nowhere.
Note that a big upside for Piledriver is that you can Vial it in at the end of your opponent's turn, and you can also give it haste with Warchief. This can make for some surprise attacks that the opponent didn't see coming (and didn't leave blockers open for). Also important: having multiples is insanely strong in almost all matchups.
It helps us race against a lot of the top decks that are being played right now: Tron, UR Phoenix, Dredge, Storm, Spirits, Humans, UW Control, Valakut, Burn, and Thopter. It also survives more than most our goblins do: Wrenn and Six, Lava Dart, Gut Shot, Plague Engineer, or being blocked by 1/1's.
Another thing I'd like to add is that I've seen and talked to a number of other Goblins players, and they all play 2-3 Piledrivers, with good results and a really positive view on the card.
And to answer the last part of your response: the purpose of Piledriver is to race your opponent. Goblins is a control-combo deck, and generally gets outraced by decks like Burn or fast combo decks. Piledriver helps combat those decks, making our bad mautchups better.
A more subjective thing, but: I would cut one Frogtosser Banneret and 2 Chieftains, or one Frogtosser, one Chieftain, and either one Tarfire, Pashalik Mons, or Skirk Prospector.
And to explain a bit about Chieftain, which links nicely with The Fluff's question:
Like I said before, Goblins is not an aggro deck. A lot of people make that mistake, but it is actually combo-control (for the lack of a better term for such a versatile deck). We want to block our opponent's creatures forever with Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Matron etc, draw cards forever (which is THE reason to play this deck; no other deck can grind like we can), and win in one turn with an alpha strike + Sling-Gang.
Therefore, Chieftain isn't that good. He can pump our board, but if he gets removed during combat it can create an awful blocking scenario for us. It also doesn't protect our board against Plague Engineer: Jund right now is the biggest deck that runs PE, sometimes even mainboard, and Chieftain creates a house of cards like state, where only 1 damage to your Chieftain will cause it and all your pumped 1/1's to be gone.
This is also why Piledriver is generally better: He gets the boost at the start of attackers phase, and what happens to the rest doesn't matter. If Piledriver gets removed during combat, the rest of the attackers stay the same, something which you can rely on.
Trashmaster is a very strong sideboard card, but I don't think it's wanted/needed in the main.
--
For clarity, and help with your list, here is my current list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
22 Lands
Note that there is no 'average' Goblins list. Because Goblins is partially a control deck, we have to change when the meta changes.
Some things that deviate the most from other decks (even though my deck is a pretty average list):
The amount of Skirk Prospectors (0-4), Mogg Fanatics (0-4), and Legion Loyalists (0-1)
The amount of Frogtosser Bannerets (0-4), Goblin Cratermakers (0-2), Sling-Gangs (1-2) and Krenko's (0-1)
The amount of lands (22 or 23), the amount of Field of Ruins (0-4), the amount of Swamps (0-1)
Other sideboard cards that you can use are:
Damping Sphere
Chalice of the Void
Leyline of the Void (even though I don't think it's needed after the ban)
Surgical Extraction
Warren Weirding x1
Stingscourger x1
Another Pashalik Mons (so you have 2 total, helps against Humans)
Goblin Ruinblaster
thanks for sharing your lists, have looked at them. Clearly there are several ways to build a gob deck. It also seems that there is not much need for many +1/+1 lords at all. Piledriver was originally created to fight Psychatog decks so many years ago. I guess he's still doing a good job of fighting evil blue creatures up to this day, not yet retired.
Will reconsider adding 2-3 piledrivers to my final list. Will be getting the money to buy the gobs next month, so there's still a bit of time to observe at gob threads before making a final buy list.
I was 100% on the Frogtosser Banneret train at the start but I'm now convinced the card is too weak. The acceleration is great, but individually it is rarely worth a card, needing multiple Ringleaders to be worth the investment.
Well for my part i'm still 100% on the frogtosser banneret bandwagon. Playing multiple goblins a turn is key to winning and cost reduction is the best way to do that. Note that i play only 20 lands as opposed to a lot of people's 22-23, so if i did like a lot of people do, these frogtossers would just be more lands anyways.
Playing 4x aether vials, plus 4x skirk prospectors + 4x goblin warchiefs and 4x frogtosser bannerets in addition to the new mulligan rule makes 20 lands very reasonable for this deck in my opinion.
And to answer the last part of your response: the purpose of Piledriver is to race your opponent.
All of the points you make are very fair. I'll give old goblin piledriver a try, probably in the place of my two goblin chieftains, since they both have the same purpose of racing. We'll see how it goes!
They are too slow, don't guarantee the discard, and doesn't look at the opponent's hand or let you choose which card to discard. Use Thoughtseize instead. 3 in your sideboard makes them appear in your opening hand often, and playing it on the first turn helps a lot to buy us time against most unfair decks.
The banlist update has turned Goblins from a fun deck to bring to FNM to a deck that I might consider taking to large tournaments. Virtually all the terrible matchups for Goblins abused Faithless Looting. Stoneforge Mystic might seem scary, but we have plenty of ways to deal with the artifacts and we grind better. I'm definitely going to two cratermaker main, and I'm considering bringing a Trashmaster main although that is pretty tough with how cluttered the cmc4 slot already is. Btw, note that if you have Legion Loyalist's Battalion active, Batterskull's germ is not allowed to block!
Taking a deep look in how to beat Tron is a good plan though. I am already on 4 Field of Ruin myself and I'd recommend fitting as many as possible in the manabase. I'm also leaving my Surgical Extractions in the sideboard, since although graveyard decks are weakened, they will not be gone, and after surgicalling a tron land we are very capable of racing them.
Also, I'm not very sure about this, but I'm under the impression that stoneforge control would generally dislike playing sweepers, which is how this archetype loses that matchup.
I recently picked up this deck on modo. Still working on getting the cards in paper. I have been running Tectonic Edge instead of Field of Ruin because it is more disruptive and you can only get tron if you are able to hit it on turn 3 when you are on the play anyway.
It has helped win me quite a few games and I never ended up missing Field against Tron so far, but I did wish they were fields against Inkmoth Nexus specifically.
I have put Trashmaster in the main deck along with 1 Cratermaker which has put me at an advantage against the stoneforge decks.
So far my league finishes:
5-0: 0
4-1: 3
3-2: 1
2-3: 2
1-4: 0
0-5: 0
Really enjoying the deck. Long been a fan of goblins in legacy but never built it myself so now I feel like it's my time.
Had a decently successful weekend where I won an FNM 4-0, then I had a 4-0 SCG side event into a 3-1 into a 1-1-2.
FNM:
UW Control (2-0)
Bogles (2-1)
Burn (2-1)
UW Control (2-0)
Side event no.1:
UW Stoneblade (2-0)
Mardu Death's Shadow (2-0)
Whirza (2-1)
Grixis Death's Shadow (2-0)
Side event no.2:
GW Stoneforge Company(?) (0-2)
UW Stoneblade (2-0)
UWr Stoneblade (2-0)
-No show- (2-0)
Side event no.3:
UW Stoneblade (1-1)
UWr Stoneblade (2-0)
Sun & Moon (0-2)
Burn (0-2)
UW Control is by far the easiest metagame opponent. You have everything that beats them: uncounterable threats via Vial and/or Cavern if you choose to play Cavern, a plan that slants hard against Force of Negation, and plenty of reach and card advantage. UWx Stoneblade is a little bit trickier to play against, but due to its low impact options against us (less removal, and oftentimes they have incentive to avoid sweepers altogether if it suits their plan) they tend to fizzle out when we interact and choose our spots well. I wouldn't overcompensate to prepare for these two, I like one SB Abrade for Stoneblade
Bogles is something you simply can't beat without Warren Weirding. Depending on how large your tournament is and how many you see in the room, you want to pack 0-2 in the board. I audibled one for FNM but chose to play without it in the side events, as I saw plenty more real decks there.
Burn is a struggle, and some of the games can be close, but it is a very winnable matchup without any spice. I think if you were trying to beat Burn specifically while consolidating your options, 1-2 Grim Lavamancer is pretty sweet because it helps vs. Infect and GW Company decks as well. If you want to target burn, you should go with 2-3 Dragon's Claw IMO.
Whirza is seemingly a pretty smooth matchup, but you have to be very weary of their ability to go off with Thopter Foundry. I've slotted in Trashmaster maindeck due to the drop off of graveyard strategies and the uptick of Stoneforge/Urza decks, and it was a pretty reasonable move.
The GWx decks, irrespective of whether they shoehorned Stoneforge in, may or may not have a lot of high impact turn 2 plays. I lost my match because G1 started with T1 Giver of Runes into T2 Devoted into turn 3 Vizier + Ballista and I was a turn off of dealing with both Giver and Druid. I would consider using your flex slots for additional Tarfire copies if you see GW, Burn, and Infect in the room because there are a lot of things to race through in those archetypes, and I feel those are the proactive decks of choice now.
Sun and Moon was miserable because my opponent got off four copies of Timely Reinforcements via the new Chandra that buys things back. Even though it might not seem worthwhile, consider your Chainwhirler for post-boarded games.
After evaluating which choices worked for me and those that didn't, here's my updated recommended list:
A few thoughts on where I see this deck design going in the near future:
My notable changes are that I'm not sold on Cavern anymore. The only counterspells that are concerning are Spell Snare and Chalice of the Void, and we can beat those with Vial and Cratermaker respectively. The decks that tend to play from behind by holding up counterspells for information tend to also be our best matchups. Conversely, giving yourself the real estate of a maindeck Swamp is crucial so you don't get Field of Ruined out of games is crucial. Playing a few canopy lands to make up for the few cards that might get countered in a game is a nice trade-off that can carry over to other attrition matchups.
I like Damping Sphere as a way to nix many of our worst combo opponents which go over the top of what we're doing. Against Twiddle Storm, it's extra insurance on top of our Alpine Moons. Against Tron, it's pretty much lights out, especially when backed up by a Chieftain assault.
Some cards that hose us pretty hard are Plague Engineer, Torpor Orb, so it's important to have plenty of ways to deal with those naturally, since you can't rely on Matron to find an out to Orb.
Lastly, as much as Cavern might be obsolete in the grand scheme of what the format might need to be fought with, so too are Thoughtseize and Relic of Progenitus (for now, IMO)
For example, my LGS that I normally frequent has something like 2-3 Infect players, 3-4 UWx Control/Mid, 2-3 Tron, 1-2 Burn, 1-2 GBx, 1-2 Twiddle Storm, another Goblins player, and then the few oddball types sprinkled in with their Mill and Bogles and 8rack and what have you. So I would probably sleeve this sideboard up for my next FNM:
I feel like the 5+ slots being dedicated to Thoughtseize and Relic are just not necessary until a slew of combo decks and graveyard based strategies crop up to make those catch-alls relevant again. The only combo decks you have to worry about (Storm, Infect, etc.) get hosed by Damping Sphere, and if you're dealing with the likes of TitanShift you can just tick up your Alpine Moon count to deal with Field of the Dead and Reclamation Sage
This is going to be a pretty short reply, but I don't think you can dismiss Cavern of Souls that easily. You now have at least 2 more lands that don't make black mana, which can make certain hands needlessly awkward. The can't be countered clause literally has no downside, and making a specific matchup really good (UW Control) is very good for us. Another point that I think is very important and didn't see you talk about is life. Our Burn matchup isn't that great, and when you are playing 4 extra lands that cost you life in an otherwise relatively painless manabase, that will probably cost you a significant amount of win percentage against Burn, where (at least against us) games can be very close and every point of life can make a difference.
Also, why are you running 1 Abrade in your sideboard? Goblin Cratermaker and Kolaghan's Command both seem a lot better.
And why the Chandra? What does it do better than other sideboard cards, that we need in Goblins?
We have enough sources (13) for a turn two Munitions Expert or Warren Weirding. That's literally the cutoff, any more sources would be redundant, albeit a little more consistent. If you're playing black non-creatures below 3cmc, Cavern actually HURTS your deck more than anything. We only play two lands that hurt us in the long game? I wrote 2 Canyons, not 4. Even then, we are probably losing to an unanswered Eidolon more than anything.
Turn two Infect creature/Stoneforge/Devoted Druid etc. all dodge Cratermaker and Kolaghan's Command, so no, they are strictly worse than Abrade for what it's worth. It's meant to slant against aggressive builds while giving you splash hate for Whirza and such. Chandra is meta specific; I know for a fact that the only pilots at my LGS that are going to be tough matchups all play value decks, so I need a critical mass of sticky threats.
The only black card you're playing that cannot be cast with Cavern of Souls is Warren Weirding. To make your deck more inconsistent and more painful, only to up the consistency of one sideboard card, seems like a very wrong choice to make. The downside here is much bigger than the upside.
An argument can be made to play 3, maybe even 2, but even then it's pretty iffy and just not as optimal in most cases as playing 4 Caverns.
What you said about counterspells is simply not right. Counterspells, and blue in general, is really strong right now, and cards like Logic Knot, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command are definitely out there. Also, Chalice of the Void is not a problem for us at all, since it mostly only counters Vial and Tarfire, and if we ourselves run Chalice it enters after Vial anyway.
I don't know which lands you specifically added instead of Cavern, but if I were to add them I would cut 1 Field of Ruin, 1 Wooded Foothills and 2 Sunbaked Canyon. That already is 3 lands that hurt a lot more than 0 life. Cutting the 4th Field also makes you more consistent in general, as you then will have a much lower chance of having 2 Field in your opening hand.
Just saying that we will probably lose to an unanswered Eidolon is not really an argument. You yourself said that you usually have 1-2 Burn players in your LGS, and I assume you are not just giving up that matchup. Since that can be a tough match, you want to be as prepared for that as possible.
Making yourself not lose much life from your own lands is a very easy way to improve not only your Burn matchup, but also others.
Also, we are one of the best decks to outgrind our opponent with insane card advantage, where we can also dump our hand really fast in the midgame with Skirk Prospector, Goblin Warchief and Aether Vial. Isn't it better to have something like Krenko, Mob Boss in your sideboard? That way you can keep your Ringleaders as strong as possible, while also being able to overwhelm your opponent with a card you can Matron for? (This is just a suggestion though.)
Cavern is dangerous when it comes to getting off an early Thoughtseize, and I've mitigated both deck design issues. Turn one Thoughtseize where it's good is going to require about 14-15 black sources, and Cavern/Field of Ruin are both jockeying for the same real estate in our 75. I think as poor as our matchup against Tron becomes if we just let them stick an Ugin, we can't concede to it having its turn under the sun.
I've prioritized Field because of this, but I am not saying Cavern isn't useful or that it's a bad card or anything. My only claim is that right now is a safe time to cut it because of the build of control decks. Many are playing proactively and leaning on Force to carry them home, while neglecting to hold up removal and counterspells. Until people get back to their senses and kill the Stoneblade hype, I think that the UW matchup is pretty much free. As potent as it can be to hold back some of our best threats with Leak and Spell Snare, most pilots are simply not letting our turn one Vial get under their interaction anyway, so they tend to just jam and play catch up on the board later.
My point about Burn is not that playing Canopy lands is negligible (I mean you have to be pretty anal retentive to think adding two to the main will skew this matchup, though) but that if we don't have a way to interact then it doesn't matter how much life our manabase is saving us. I think the sideboard is the most important part of dealing with the influx of Burn we are going to see with less Dredge in the format. I've thought about playing a Jinxed Idol where I previously had a Chandra ToD, simply because we can just yeet it to our opponent much more often than vice versa, and it is also a nice insurance measure to being able to trigger Pashalik Mons if nothing else. Pretty hard for decks backpedaling against us and decks racing us to fight that card on top of everything else we do. Just don't have enough data with it.
If you're on the draw, all of those three win conditions are super live against you, and you won't make it to your turn three to stop them. That's how they dodge your Cratermaker and K-Com.
Lastly, I don't like Krenko because typically he's win-more. If your meta has got pillow fort/Martyr, it can be a very strong option to couple with our Sling-Gangs and Pashilik Mons. Otherwise, it tends to eat removal pretty hard for a 4 drop that has no immediate impact unless our opponent is playing from pretty far behind.
I've included 2x damping sphere in my sideboard as well because twiddle storm and tron are back, but i'm not convinced on cutting GY hate, so i'm also keeping 2x grafdigger's cage in the 15. Those are the only non-goblin spells in the sideboard, because ringleader/matron value.
I'm sold on the painless mana. My mana base is currently:
Forget about the counterspell thing, cavern and unclaimed are just painless untapped perfect fixing lands. I don't think we need any of the non goblin black spells to be honest, so why take damage when we can not take damage? Its just a free bonus.
We have enough sources (13) for a turn two Munitions Expert or Warren Weirding. That's literally the cutoff, any more sources would be redundant, albeit a little more consistent.
That doesn't make any sense. This notion comes from karsten's article, which is a great article, but you're taking it way to litteraly. 13 lands gives you approximatly 90% chances to hit your color on turn two. But 90% isn't a magical number, its just a abitrarily chosen number to use as a guideline, because the author of the article had to pick one to do the math.
Having more chances to hit your colors is always good. There is always a trade-off between good mana and utility lands. There is nothing special about «90%» probability other than it pleases the mind because it feels kind of likely and can be divided by ten i guess? There are no cutoffs at all, you just have to weight the pros and cons when building your land base.
That doesn't make any sense. This notion comes from karsten's article, which is a great article, but you're taking it way to litteraly. 13 lands gives you approximatly 90% chances to hit your color on turn two. But 90% isn't a magical number, its just a abitrarily chosen number to use as a guideline, because the author of the article had to pick one to do the math.
Having more chances to hit your colors is always good. There is always a trade-off between good mana and utility lands. There is nothing special about «90%» probability other than it pleases the mind because it feels kind of likely and can be divided by ten i guess? There are no cutoffs at all, you just have to weight the pros and cons when building your land base.
"hit your colors" bro just say "Munitions Expert mana" and keep it moving lmao
WHY are you guys beating up on that point? You do realize that if you want to have a turn two Munitions Expert be handy on a consistent basis, you would also have to warp your list to include 7+ one drop Goblins, correct? This is another problem where you can't fix a broken bone with a band-aid. Just trying to improve my mana to be nearly flawless has absolutely 0 payoff if I don't improve my spell base to go along with it so that when we actually get our Munitions Expert going early more often, it's actually for a reason
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The power of him isn't that he can't be removed by blue spells (although that does help against UW Control, where they cannot bounce it with Cryptic Command, Jace, The Mind Sculptor or either Teferis) or that he can't be countered (he can indeed be countered, but counterspells are notoriously bad against us,because we run Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls); he is really good because he is a big threat, and needs to be answered. And when the opponent chooses to remove a Piledriver, that is one removal spell they cannot use on Matron or Ringleader.
What I was saying is that in the decks I mentioned, there are only very few creatures that can block Piledriver, and even if they happen to have one of those, we have Munitions Expert, Pashalik Mons, Tarfire, Mogg Fanatic and/or Cratermaker as removal, so we can swing through with a 11/2. And if they are a deck that play few big creatures, they would either have to block with something like a Reality Smasher, Primeval Titan, or Tarmogoyf, or take a lot of damage. This also makes it so that other goblins (like Warchief) have a bigger chance of not getting blocked/killed in combat.
As for Plague Engineer: when the opponent plays it, our main concern is getting rid of it, not getting in with Piledriver, so that argument is a bit loose. Any Goblin that survives that semi-sweeper is a big plus for us.
We are not an aggro deck, and we do not want to attack every turn. We are only going to attack when a) the opponent has no creatures and/or we need to race, or b) if we can win. Getting in with Piledriver is not our main way of winning (that would be swinging with (almost) everything and saccing it post combat with Sling-Gang), but it is a really good plan B that we can Matron for to swing for lethal out of nowhere.
Note that a big upside for Piledriver is that you can Vial it in at the end of your opponent's turn, and you can also give it haste with Warchief. This can make for some surprise attacks that the opponent didn't see coming (and didn't leave blockers open for). Also important: having multiples is insanely strong in almost all matchups.
It helps us race against a lot of the top decks that are being played right now: Tron, UR Phoenix, Dredge, Storm, Spirits, Humans, UW Control, Valakut, Burn, and Thopter. It also survives more than most our goblins do: Wrenn and Six, Lava Dart, Gut Shot, Plague Engineer, or being blocked by 1/1's.
Another thing I'd like to add is that I've seen and talked to a number of other Goblins players, and they all play 2-3 Piledrivers, with good results and a really positive view on the card.
And to answer the last part of your response: the purpose of Piledriver is to race your opponent. Goblins is a control-combo deck, and generally gets outraced by decks like Burn or fast combo decks. Piledriver helps combat those decks, making our bad mautchups better.
A more subjective thing, but: I would cut one Frogtosser Banneret and 2 Chieftains, or one Frogtosser, one Chieftain, and either one Tarfire, Pashalik Mons, or Skirk Prospector.
And to explain a bit about Chieftain, which links nicely with The Fluff's question:
Like I said before, Goblins is not an aggro deck. A lot of people make that mistake, but it is actually combo-control (for the lack of a better term for such a versatile deck). We want to block our opponent's creatures forever with Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Matron etc, draw cards forever (which is THE reason to play this deck; no other deck can grind like we can), and win in one turn with an alpha strike + Sling-Gang.
Therefore, Chieftain isn't that good. He can pump our board, but if he gets removed during combat it can create an awful blocking scenario for us. It also doesn't protect our board against Plague Engineer: Jund right now is the biggest deck that runs PE, sometimes even mainboard, and Chieftain creates a house of cards like state, where only 1 damage to your Chieftain will cause it and all your pumped 1/1's to be gone.
This is also why Piledriver is generally better: He gets the boost at the start of attackers phase, and what happens to the rest doesn't matter. If Piledriver gets removed during combat, the rest of the attackers stay the same, something which you can rely on.
Trashmaster is a very strong sideboard card, but I don't think it's wanted/needed in the main.
--
For clarity, and help with your list, here is my current list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
22 Lands
4 Aether Vial
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Tarfire
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Munitions Expert
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Frogtosser Banneret
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Pashalik Mons
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Fatal Push
2 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Blood Moon
Note that there is no 'average' Goblins list. Because Goblins is partially a control deck, we have to change when the meta changes.
Some things that deviate the most from other decks (even though my deck is a pretty average list):
The amount of Skirk Prospectors (0-4), Mogg Fanatics (0-4), and Legion Loyalists (0-1)
The amount of Frogtosser Bannerets (0-4), Goblin Cratermakers (0-2), Sling-Gangs (1-2) and Krenko's (0-1)
The amount of lands (22 or 23), the amount of Field of Ruins (0-4), the amount of Swamps (0-1)
Other sideboard cards that you can use are:
Damping Sphere
Chalice of the Void
Leyline of the Void (even though I don't think it's needed after the ban)
Surgical Extraction
Warren Weirding x1
Stingscourger x1
Another Pashalik Mons (so you have 2 total, helps against Humans)
Goblin Ruinblaster
thanks for sharing your lists, have looked at them. Clearly there are several ways to build a gob deck. It also seems that there is not much need for many +1/+1 lords at all. Piledriver was originally created to fight Psychatog decks so many years ago. I guess he's still doing a good job of fighting evil blue creatures up to this day, not yet retired.
Will reconsider adding 2-3 piledrivers to my final list. Will be getting the money to buy the gobs next month, so there's still a bit of time to observe at gob threads before making a final buy list.
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Well for my part i'm still 100% on the frogtosser banneret bandwagon. Playing multiple goblins a turn is key to winning and cost reduction is the best way to do that. Note that i play only 20 lands as opposed to a lot of people's 22-23, so if i did like a lot of people do, these frogtossers would just be more lands anyways.
Playing 4x aether vials, plus 4x skirk prospectors + 4x goblin warchiefs and 4x frogtosser bannerets in addition to the new mulligan rule makes 20 lands very reasonable for this deck in my opinion.
All of the points you make are very fair. I'll give old goblin piledriver a try, probably in the place of my two goblin chieftains, since they both have the same purpose of racing. We'll see how it goes!
Only if we manage to have a favorable Tron matchup, I think.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
I think our Tron matchup is not that bad. Maindeck 2-4 Field of Ruin, at least 1 Goblin Cratermaker main, and Goblin Piledriver + Goblin Warchief all help make this matchup doable. Skirk Prospector and Sling-Gang Lieutenant both make Wurmcoil Engine basically useless, Karn Liberated is not that scary against us, and the only threat we cannot really recover from is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Sideboard cards that help are another Cratermaker, Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, and Earwig Squad.
I don't think Akki Blizzard-Herder is good enough to play. Our sideboard already is very full, and Chalice, for example, is good against a lot of other decks as well.
Taking a deep look in how to beat Tron is a good plan though. I am already on 4 Field of Ruin myself and I'd recommend fitting as many as possible in the manabase. I'm also leaving my Surgical Extractions in the sideboard, since although graveyard decks are weakened, they will not be gone, and after surgicalling a tron land we are very capable of racing them.
P.S. Do we have a plan vs geist?
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
It has helped win me quite a few games and I never ended up missing Field against Tron so far, but I did wish they were fields against Inkmoth Nexus specifically.
I have put Trashmaster in the main deck along with 1 Cratermaker which has put me at an advantage against the stoneforge decks.
So far my league finishes:
5-0: 0
4-1: 3
3-2: 1
2-3: 2
1-4: 0
0-5: 0
Really enjoying the deck. Long been a fan of goblins in legacy but never built it myself so now I feel like it's my time.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
FNM:
Side event no.1:
Side event no.2:
Side event no.3:
UW Control is by far the easiest metagame opponent. You have everything that beats them: uncounterable threats via Vial and/or Cavern if you choose to play Cavern, a plan that slants hard against Force of Negation, and plenty of reach and card advantage. UWx Stoneblade is a little bit trickier to play against, but due to its low impact options against us (less removal, and oftentimes they have incentive to avoid sweepers altogether if it suits their plan) they tend to fizzle out when we interact and choose our spots well. I wouldn't overcompensate to prepare for these two, I like one SB Abrade for Stoneblade
Bogles is something you simply can't beat without Warren Weirding. Depending on how large your tournament is and how many you see in the room, you want to pack 0-2 in the board. I audibled one for FNM but chose to play without it in the side events, as I saw plenty more real decks there.
Burn is a struggle, and some of the games can be close, but it is a very winnable matchup without any spice. I think if you were trying to beat Burn specifically while consolidating your options, 1-2 Grim Lavamancer is pretty sweet because it helps vs. Infect and GW Company decks as well. If you want to target burn, you should go with 2-3 Dragon's Claw IMO.
Whirza is seemingly a pretty smooth matchup, but you have to be very weary of their ability to go off with Thopter Foundry. I've slotted in Trashmaster maindeck due to the drop off of graveyard strategies and the uptick of Stoneforge/Urza decks, and it was a pretty reasonable move.
The GWx decks, irrespective of whether they shoehorned Stoneforge in, may or may not have a lot of high impact turn 2 plays. I lost my match because G1 started with T1 Giver of Runes into T2 Devoted into turn 3 Vizier + Ballista and I was a turn off of dealing with both Giver and Druid. I would consider using your flex slots for additional Tarfire copies if you see GW, Burn, and Infect in the room because there are a lot of things to race through in those archetypes, and I feel those are the proactive decks of choice now.
Sun and Moon was miserable because my opponent got off four copies of Timely Reinforcements via the new Chandra that buys things back. Even though it might not seem worthwhile, consider your Chainwhirler for post-boarded games.
After evaluating which choices worked for me and those that didn't, here's my updated recommended list:
4 Munitions Expert
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Pashalik Mons
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Tarfire
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sunbaked Canyon
4 Field of Ruin
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Icon of Ancestry
2 Damping Sphere
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Pashalik Mons
2 Alpine Moon
1 Abrade
4 (Flex Slot)
A few thoughts on where I see this deck design going in the near future:
My notable changes are that I'm not sold on Cavern anymore. The only counterspells that are concerning are Spell Snare and Chalice of the Void, and we can beat those with Vial and Cratermaker respectively. The decks that tend to play from behind by holding up counterspells for information tend to also be our best matchups. Conversely, giving yourself the real estate of a maindeck Swamp is crucial so you don't get Field of Ruined out of games is crucial. Playing a few canopy lands to make up for the few cards that might get countered in a game is a nice trade-off that can carry over to other attrition matchups.
I like Damping Sphere as a way to nix many of our worst combo opponents which go over the top of what we're doing. Against Twiddle Storm, it's extra insurance on top of our Alpine Moons. Against Tron, it's pretty much lights out, especially when backed up by a Chieftain assault.
Some cards that hose us pretty hard are Plague Engineer, Torpor Orb, so it's important to have plenty of ways to deal with those naturally, since you can't rely on Matron to find an out to Orb.
Lastly, as much as Cavern might be obsolete in the grand scheme of what the format might need to be fought with, so too are Thoughtseize and Relic of Progenitus (for now, IMO)
For example, my LGS that I normally frequent has something like 2-3 Infect players, 3-4 UWx Control/Mid, 2-3 Tron, 1-2 Burn, 1-2 GBx, 1-2 Twiddle Storm, another Goblins player, and then the few oddball types sprinkled in with their Mill and Bogles and 8rack and what have you. So I would probably sleeve this sideboard up for my next FNM:
I feel like the 5+ slots being dedicated to Thoughtseize and Relic are just not necessary until a slew of combo decks and graveyard based strategies crop up to make those catch-alls relevant again. The only combo decks you have to worry about (Storm, Infect, etc.) get hosed by Damping Sphere, and if you're dealing with the likes of TitanShift you can just tick up your Alpine Moon count to deal with Field of the Dead and Reclamation Sage
Also, why are you running 1 Abrade in your sideboard? Goblin Cratermaker and Kolaghan's Command both seem a lot better.
And why the Chandra? What does it do better than other sideboard cards, that we need in Goblins?
Turn two Infect creature/Stoneforge/Devoted Druid etc. all dodge Cratermaker and Kolaghan's Command, so no, they are strictly worse than Abrade for what it's worth. It's meant to slant against aggressive builds while giving you splash hate for Whirza and such. Chandra is meta specific; I know for a fact that the only pilots at my LGS that are going to be tough matchups all play value decks, so I need a critical mass of sticky threats.
An argument can be made to play 3, maybe even 2, but even then it's pretty iffy and just not as optimal in most cases as playing 4 Caverns.
What you said about counterspells is simply not right. Counterspells, and blue in general, is really strong right now, and cards like Logic Knot, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command are definitely out there. Also, Chalice of the Void is not a problem for us at all, since it mostly only counters Vial and Tarfire, and if we ourselves run Chalice it enters after Vial anyway.
I don't know which lands you specifically added instead of Cavern, but if I were to add them I would cut 1 Field of Ruin, 1 Wooded Foothills and 2 Sunbaked Canyon. That already is 3 lands that hurt a lot more than 0 life. Cutting the 4th Field also makes you more consistent in general, as you then will have a much lower chance of having 2 Field in your opening hand.
Just saying that we will probably lose to an unanswered Eidolon is not really an argument. You yourself said that you usually have 1-2 Burn players in your LGS, and I assume you are not just giving up that matchup. Since that can be a tough match, you want to be as prepared for that as possible.
Making yourself not lose much life from your own lands is a very easy way to improve not only your Burn matchup, but also others.
How are "Turn two Infect creature/Stoneforge/Devoted Druid etc." all dodging Goblin Cratermaker and Kolaghan's Command, but not Abrade?
Also, we are one of the best decks to outgrind our opponent with insane card advantage, where we can also dump our hand really fast in the midgame with Skirk Prospector, Goblin Warchief and Aether Vial. Isn't it better to have something like Krenko, Mob Boss in your sideboard? That way you can keep your Ringleaders as strong as possible, while also being able to overwhelm your opponent with a card you can Matron for? (This is just a suggestion though.)
I've prioritized Field because of this, but I am not saying Cavern isn't useful or that it's a bad card or anything. My only claim is that right now is a safe time to cut it because of the build of control decks. Many are playing proactively and leaning on Force to carry them home, while neglecting to hold up removal and counterspells. Until people get back to their senses and kill the Stoneblade hype, I think that the UW matchup is pretty much free. As potent as it can be to hold back some of our best threats with Leak and Spell Snare, most pilots are simply not letting our turn one Vial get under their interaction anyway, so they tend to just jam and play catch up on the board later.
My point about Burn is not that playing Canopy lands is negligible (I mean you have to be pretty anal retentive to think adding two to the main will skew this matchup, though) but that if we don't have a way to interact then it doesn't matter how much life our manabase is saving us. I think the sideboard is the most important part of dealing with the influx of Burn we are going to see with less Dredge in the format. I've thought about playing a Jinxed Idol where I previously had a Chandra ToD, simply because we can just yeet it to our opponent much more often than vice versa, and it is also a nice insurance measure to being able to trigger Pashalik Mons if nothing else. Pretty hard for decks backpedaling against us and decks racing us to fight that card on top of everything else we do. Just don't have enough data with it.
If you're on the draw, all of those three win conditions are super live against you, and you won't make it to your turn three to stop them. That's how they dodge your Cratermaker and K-Com.
Lastly, I don't like Krenko because typically he's win-more. If your meta has got pillow fort/Martyr, it can be a very strong option to couple with our Sling-Gangs and Pashilik Mons. Otherwise, it tends to eat removal pretty hard for a 4 drop that has no immediate impact unless our opponent is playing from pretty far behind.
I'm sold on the painless mana. My mana base is currently:
4x cavern of souls
4x unclaimed territory
4x auntie's hovel
2x swamp
4x mountain
2x field of ruin
Forget about the counterspell thing, cavern and unclaimed are just painless untapped perfect fixing lands. I don't think we need any of the non goblin black spells to be honest, so why take damage when we can not take damage? Its just a free bonus.
also:
That doesn't make any sense. This notion comes from karsten's article, which is a great article, but you're taking it way to litteraly. 13 lands gives you approximatly 90% chances to hit your color on turn two. But 90% isn't a magical number, its just a abitrarily chosen number to use as a guideline, because the author of the article had to pick one to do the math.
Having more chances to hit your colors is always good. There is always a trade-off between good mana and utility lands. There is nothing special about «90%» probability other than it pleases the mind because it feels kind of likely and can be divided by ten i guess? There are no cutoffs at all, you just have to weight the pros and cons when building your land base.
"hit your colors" bro just say "Munitions Expert mana" and keep it moving lmao
WHY are you guys beating up on that point? You do realize that if you want to have a turn two Munitions Expert be handy on a consistent basis, you would also have to warp your list to include 7+ one drop Goblins, correct? This is another problem where you can't fix a broken bone with a band-aid. Just trying to improve my mana to be nearly flawless has absolutely 0 payoff if I don't improve my spell base to go along with it so that when we actually get our Munitions Expert going early more often, it's actually for a reason