Rogomatic, I like devastating summons but I would only run 1 of. Also, I would run 4 mogg war marshals and remove 4 of the krenkos command\ dragon fodder. With mwm your can cast him then sacrifice him to a grenade and still have 2 1\1's or if they board wipe on their turn your are left with 1 1\1 still.running some free spells to.pump swiftspear would help also. Maybe drop all the krenkos and fodder for manamorphose\probes\mutagenic growth. You kind of need to decide if your are going wide or going fast I think. I feel that in the upcoming meta that going faster is going to be the better route.
Rogomatic, I like devastating summons but I would only run 1 of. Also, I would run 4 mogg war marshals and remove 4 of the krenkos command\ dragon fodder. With mwm your can cast him then sacrifice him to a grenade and still have 2 1\1's or if they board wipe on their turn your are left with 1 1\1 still.running some free spells to.pump swiftspear would help also. Maybe drop all the krenkos and fodder for manamorphose\probes\mutagenic growth. You kind of need to decide if your are going wide or going fast I think. I feel that in the upcoming meta that going faster is going to be the better route.
I don't think MWM fits what I'm planning to do. The commands have several advantages: they can produce two attackers the turn after they're cast with no additional conditions (can also be ready as early as T2, which MWM cannot do), and they pump both SS and FSD.
I don't feel the two DS are too many, the bigger problem with them is not being able to cast them together with the haste enabler. Ideally, I'd like to have one by T3 with 3 mana sources available, though the mana base has not been fully cooperative with this plan. More work is needed.
This deck was designed to go wide fast and win with multiple pump effects (which may or may not be a good idea after the recent round on bannings). It tries to run "expendables" so that a strategically placed spot removal wouldn't neuter the damage completely. FSD and Pest kind of throw a wrench in this though.
If I am to get rid of the "wide" component, I'd probably want to add Piledrivers, and then I'm just playing MedRage's list.
Hi everyone! First time posting in the Goblins thread, but I think this will be my new main deck now that Twin is gone.
I've been testing out some lists I've seen in the thread and found that I don't enjoy the high variance of the T3 Fury/Chancellor list, but I prefer the no-lord style instead.
I'm testing out Jwelt's Goblin Surge deck with a couple modifications:
The goldfishing you guys have done is seriously impressive. I've been playing the deck on Cockatrice and it really is quick. Dumping my hand on turn 1-2 is so satisfying. Winning on turn 3 on the play when your opponent went T1 Ancient Stirrings -> Kozilek's Return? Ahh, that's why I love goblins. This deck has won on turn 3 through each of the following scenarios: double Lightning Bolt, Remand, Mana Leak (Zinamogg, I'm not sure Defense Grid is necessary because counters are already so weak against us), Spellskite... it can be seriously quick.
However, there are a few common patterns to my losses, and I'm going to try and sum them up to try and find a way to improve.
Heavy discard, especially when I'm on the draw:
Often times my hand has a bunch of junk and 1-3 payoff spells. If these get taken away, we are very crippled.
Wasteland Strangler:
This card is a beating. Always a 2-for-1 and it comes down as early as turn 2 for them.
Bolt Snap-Bolt:
This is an easy 3-for-2 for our opponent and it comes down fast, similar to Wasteland Strangler.
Wall of Omens/Wall of Roots/Spellskite, early Tasigur/Gurmag:
When my opponent gets down early blockers, it really slows us down. Sometimes you can go wide of the walls, but when you lose an attacker to Tasigur/Gurmag each time you swing, you really are in a tight spot.
Board Wipes:
Usually the only wipes that are fast enough are Pyroclasm, Kozilek's Return, Drown in Sorrow. If you get hit with one, it's hard to recover, especially because our payoff spells get better with more creatures in play.
Stumbling to my own sequencing:
This will likely improve with practice, but I've found that it's not always easy to choose the right order to cast our spells. Often times you have to trade off pumping Swiftspear vs. holding a spell back for Surge next turn. Or, do I use my Bushwhacker now, or play out all my guys to get max value from it next turn? The answers are not always clear.
Other thoughts on the deck-
I really like the 1 Devastating Summons. It's great flood insurance and combos very well with a Bushwhacker. I often sac all my lands and pray it's enough to close out the game (it always has been so far).
Having green in the deck is not a negligible cost. I often get tripped up using the RG from BTE, and knowing when to use manamorphose to get RG instead of RR is tough.
I like the idea behind the switch from Probe + FSD to Bolt + Mutagenic Growth. I don't think the full 8-for-8 trade is correct, but I think I'll start messing around with those numbers and see what works.
Sideboarding is very unfamiliar to me with this deck. It's not always straight forward. When cutting cards I usually try to cut down the same ratios. For example, +3 Blood Moon, -1 Manamorphose, -1 Reckless Bushwhacker, -1 Burning-Tree Emissary.
I'm sure everyone else realized this already but it just hit me. I was so scared of running blood moon because I then couldn't hit my green sideboard cards but manamorphose fixes that problem. Not sure why I didn't see it earlier. Also, I've been running 7 fetches in with the 14 land 4 ssg combo. What's everyone's thoughts on fetches and how they may cause you to miss that 2nd or 3rd land in such a low density deck?
I think that's a major perk to running fetches; they reduce our odds of getting flooded (even if it's just a few percentage points). I know the whole "thinning is mathematically insignificant" argument, but in this deck I've never lost a game because I lost the race to 20. If I lose, it's because my opponent stabilized before I could kill them, and my life total is insignificant.
Here's a rough example. Our deck has 14 lands + 4 SSG, we're on the play and it's our turn 2, and we've seen 2 mana sources-
If those two lands were two mountains, our next draw has 16/52 or 30.77% chance to be a mana source.
If those two lands were fetches, our next draw has 14/50 or 28% chance to be a mana source.
It's very insignificant either way, but I hate flooding out, so I run 4 SSG, 9 Fetches, 1 Stomping Ground, and 4 Mountains as my mana base.
You run Defense Grid in non blue control decks such as RW Lockdown or mono white control, it's mostly to be used against decks with counterspells , and as rogomatic said, it doesn't do anything against sweeper effects.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
Hi everyone! First time posting in the Goblins thread, but I think this will be my new main deck now that Twin is gone.
I've been testing out some lists I've seen in the thread and found that I don't enjoy the high variance of the T3 Fury/Chancellor list, but I prefer the no-lord style instead.
I'm testing out Jwelt's Goblin Surge deck with a couple modifications:
The goldfishing you guys have done is seriously impressive. I've been playing the deck on Cockatrice and it really is quick. Dumping my hand on turn 1-2 is so satisfying. Winning on turn 3 on the play when your opponent went T1 Ancient Stirrings -> Kozilek's Return? Ahh, that's why I love goblins. This deck has won on turn 3 through each of the following scenarios: double Lightning Bolt, Remand, Mana Leak (Zinamogg, I'm not sure Defense Grid is necessary because counters are already so weak against us), Spellskite... it can be seriously quick.
However, there are a few common patterns to my losses, and I'm going to try and sum them up to try and find a way to improve.
Heavy discard, especially when I'm on the draw:
Often times my hand has a bunch of junk and 1-3 payoff spells. If these get taken away, we are very crippled.
Discard is no fun to play against. I think the best way to go here is to know your deck is more consistent than their discard. Decks that run discard usually only run 4-5, and 2-3 are usually thoughtseize. I don't see this as too much of an issue. I guess you can mulligan if your hand only has 1-2 good cards in it. I have found the redundancy of the deck to fight this pretty well.
Wasteland Strangler:
This card is a beating. Always a 2-for-1 and it comes down as early as turn 2 for them.
Bolt Snap-Bolt:
This is an easy 3-for-2 for our opponent and it comes down fast, similar to Wasteland Strangler.
These kinds of plays have been difficult for me to handle with any version of goblins. When playing against B/X eldrazi, try to not put a card in your GY on T1 if possible (i know it is difficult with fetches) - this will slow down the stranglers. Against Snap + bolt I am sort of hoping that with twin gone this is a rarity for at least a little while. I don't see control decks running this package doing all that well in the near future meta. Grixis has been a good matchup for me in the past since they seem to hurt themselves a lot for their manabase, and are very weak to blood moon.
Wall of Omens/Wall of Roots/Spellskite, early Tasigur/Gurmag:
When my opponent gets down early blockers, it really slows us down. Sometimes you can go wide of the walls, but when you lose an attacker to Tasigur/Gurmag each time you swing, you really are in a tight spot.
Board Wipes:
Usually the only wipes that are fast enough are Pyroclasm, Kozilek's Return, Drown in Sorrow. If you get hit with one, it's hard to recover, especially because our payoff spells get better with more creatures in play.
I have found Dolmen Gate (suggested by MedRage) to be a good answer for blockers. Sometimes you have to do an alpha strike against a couple tarmogoyfs - which is even easier in the goblin surge build since you can chain creatures and then give them haste. In all my playing of no lords, I have yet to lose to a board wipe. They just are not common in modern. Unfortunately this could change with the perceived rise in aggro post-twin world. Playing around board wipes is all experience. You have to be able to feel out the odds of it happening while playing, and then act appropriately. Gitaxian Probe is sure to help you figure out what plays to make.
Stumbling to my own sequencing:
This will likely improve with practice, but I've found that it's not always easy to choose the right order to cast our spells. Often times you have to trade off pumping Swiftspear vs. holding a spell back for Surge next turn. Or, do I use my Bushwhacker now, or play out all my guys to get max value from it next turn? The answers are not always clear.
Choosing between FSD, MSS, and Guide as a T1 play is the toughest choice. I always make this decision based on what is in my opening hand. Each play with this deck you have to consider all of your lines, and then pick the one that has the best chances of sucess. Sometimes I rely on the top of my deck - and sometimes it really pays off.
Other thoughts on the deck-
I really like the 1 Devastating Summons. It's great flood insurance and combos very well with a Bushwhacker. I often sac all my lands and pray it's enough to close out the game (it always has been so far).
Having green in the deck is not a negligible cost. I often get tripped up using the RG from BTE, and knowing when to use manamorphose to get RG instead of RR is tough.
I like the idea behind the switch from Probe + FSD to Bolt + Mutagenic Growth. I don't think the full 8-for-8 trade is correct, but I think I'll start messing around with those numbers and see what works.
Sideboarding is very unfamiliar to me with this deck. It's not always straight forward. When cutting cards I usually try to cut down the same ratios. For example, +3 Blood Moon, -1 Manamorphose, -1 Reckless Bushwhacker, -1 Burning-Tree Emissary.
Sideboarding is something I also need to work on. It is not intuitive since we don't really have any cards that say "please side me out" in the MD. Either way, I wouldn't side more than 3-4 cards in most matchups.
Tonight I will take my list to FNM and see how it goes - I will report back! Unless the store doesn't have the bushwhackers I pre-ordered. This would make me very very sad.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I have found Dolmen Gate (suggested by MedRage) to be a good answer for blockers.
Dolmen Gate is interesting. Does it really provide enough advantage by allowing you to attack through beefy blockers multiple times? It seems like it could work, I'm just wary about cards that don't do much on there own, especially at 2cmc. What matches do you side it in?
By the way, your deck appears to be a card short. I imagine you forgot the singleton Devastating Summons?
Good catch! That's right, +1 Devastating Summons. I even double counted!
On another note, I'm not particularly impressed with Mutagenic Growth right now, especially when it competes with Lightning Bolt for a maindeck spot. Maybe I'm not using it properly, but here's how I typically play Mutagenic:
As a "free" spell for Reckless Bushwhacker. Costing 0 here is much better than bolt's 1cmc.
Pumping an unblocked creature. 0 mana for 2 life is a good trade, but not significantly better than bolting to the face.
In response to an opposing bolt. There are only 3 creatures in my build that will be saved by this tactic, Guide, BTE, and Swiftspear. If you can save a creature, that's just a 1-for-1, if you can save a creature AND get the +2 power during combat, that's a win for us.
Pumping a blocked creature to prevent it from dying. This situation seems good, but I'd rather have bolted my opponent's creature and let my creature attack through in the first place!
Overall, the advantages to Mutagenic Growth are it's interactions with Reckless Bushwhacker, and the potential to save one of our creatures from a bolt while dealing 2 extra damage. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant a spot in the main deck over Lightning Bolt, which is much more flexible, and provides reach when our opponent's have stabilized the board. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this
As far as board wipes are concerned. I have played quite a few matches over the last few days on mtgo and can't believe how many times I have run into anger of the gods. Not just in sideboard either. We may see them become very common. Worse yet I won't be surprised to see kozileks return played main board in all those new eldrazi decks.
As far as board wipes are concerned. I have played quite a few matches over the last few days on mtgo and can't believe how many times I have run into anger of the gods. Not just in sideboard either. We may see them become very common. Worse yet I won't be surprised to see kozileks return played main board in all those new eldrazi decks.
This deck can quickly get out of hand. Their creatures come down fast and are good at blocking ours. If they stick an Archdruid it's really hard to get past them. And Collected Company helps them keep swarming when we run out of gas. I've found that my best chances of winning are when I can get in some quick damage Turn 1 and 2, and finish with Goblin Grenade and Bolt.
I'm not running any Forked Bolts in the sideboard, but I'm thinking about it. Right now I have 2 Lightning Bolts main and 2 in the side.
I could see Dolmen Gate being ok in this matchup, but if we waste too much time deploying it, their deck can retaliate very quickly with Ezuri pumps.
I've been reading this tread for a while now, finally decided to join the conversation.
Now that u guys mentioned fanatics, dont u think that this new brews will miss them? I feel we're having too little interaction. Please note that im saying that just by looking at the decks, havent got a chance to play this builds.
@rogomatic, im rly interested on your build, specially the budget part since I also dont own guides lol. How do u feel about mutagenic? I remember it was on the deck u posted a few pages back. I think it has very good sinergy with mss and reckless
@rogomatic, im rly interested on your build, specially the budget part since I also dont own guides lol. How do u feel about mutagenic? I remember it was on the deck u posted a few pages back. I think it has very good sinergy with mss and reckless
I didn't have Mutagenic Growth in any of my list -- you must be thinking about some of jwelt's lists perhaps? The idea is that they have synergy with both Swiftspear and FSD. The gameplan was to drop FSD/SS T1, follow up with some combination of token commands and Burning-Tree Emissary, then finish off with bushwhackers/grenades/bolts. I also had Signal Pest as an alternative pump, but I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. I will try swapping them out for Gitaxian Probe to smooth out the deck a little bit and help with bushwhacker surge.
This gameplan looked a lot better when the meta wasn't full of board wipes. It may be different this time around, in which case we're back to the drawing board.
I didn't have Mutagenic Growth in any of my list -- you must be thinking about some of jwelt's lists perhaps? The idea is that they have synergy with both Swiftspear and FSD. The gameplan was to drop FSD/SS T1, follow up with some combination of token commands and Burning-Tree Emissary, then finish off with bushwhackers/grenades/bolts. I also had Signal Pest as an alternative pump, but I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. I will try swapping them out for Gitaxian Probe to smooth out the deck a little bit and help with bushwhacker surge.
This gameplan looked a lot better when the meta wasn't full of board wipes. It may be different this time around, in which case we're back to the drawing board.
You're right, I probably saw it on some other list...
Anyway, I'm looking forward for updates, I'll probably be testing some variations too and let u guys know if I get good results.
Your point about the meta is also very important, we may have to tweek most of our lists thinking about board wipes.
This deck can quickly get out of hand. Their creatures come down fast and are good at blocking ours. If they stick an Archdruid it's really hard to get past them. And Collected Company helps them keep swarming when we run out of gas. I've found that my best chances of winning are when I can get in some quick damage Turn 1 and 2, and finish with Goblin Grenade and Bolt.
I'm not running any Forked Bolts in the sideboard, but I'm thinking about it. Right now I have 2 Lightning Bolts main and 2 in the side.
I could see Dolmen Gate being ok in this matchup, but if we waste too much time deploying it, their deck can retaliate very quickly with Ezuri pumps.
I've never had too much of an issue with Elves. Sure, sometimes they have a god-hand that you just can't stop, but so do we. Be aware of what NEEDS to die on sight (HERITAGE DRUID!!!) and burn them out as fast as possible. They aren't generally willing to trade creatures with you so use that to your advantage. If you keep them on the back foot, you should be fine.
I don't think MWM fits what I'm planning to do. The commands have several advantages: they can produce two attackers the turn after they're cast with no additional conditions (can also be ready as early as T2, which MWM cannot do), and they pump both SS and FSD.
I don't feel the two DS are too many, the bigger problem with them is not being able to cast them together with the haste enabler. Ideally, I'd like to have one by T3 with 3 mana sources available, though the mana base has not been fully cooperative with this plan. More work is needed.
This deck was designed to go wide fast and win with multiple pump effects (which may or may not be a good idea after the recent round on bannings). It tries to run "expendables" so that a strategically placed spot removal wouldn't neuter the damage completely. FSD and Pest kind of throw a wrench in this though.
If I am to get rid of the "wide" component, I'd probably want to add Piledrivers, and then I'm just playing MedRage's list.
That's the idea
It seems that once you cast 2 rituals, you're looking for a combination of BTE/Priest + myr/entity + bushwhacker. This can hit pretty hard.
I've been testing out some lists I've seen in the thread and found that I don't enjoy the high variance of the T3 Fury/Chancellor list, but I prefer the no-lord style instead.
I'm testing out Jwelt's Goblin Surge deck with a couple modifications:
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Reckless Bushwhacker
Spells
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Atarka's Command
4x Manamorphose
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Mountain
1x Stomping Ground
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Blood Moon
2x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Dismember
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Forked Bolt
1x Shattering Spree
The goldfishing you guys have done is seriously impressive. I've been playing the deck on Cockatrice and it really is quick. Dumping my hand on turn 1-2 is so satisfying. Winning on turn 3 on the play when your opponent went T1 Ancient Stirrings -> Kozilek's Return? Ahh, that's why I love goblins. This deck has won on turn 3 through each of the following scenarios: double Lightning Bolt, Remand, Mana Leak (Zinamogg, I'm not sure Defense Grid is necessary because counters are already so weak against us), Spellskite... it can be seriously quick.
However, there are a few common patterns to my losses, and I'm going to try and sum them up to try and find a way to improve.
Heavy discard, especially when I'm on the draw:
Often times my hand has a bunch of junk and 1-3 payoff spells. If these get taken away, we are very crippled.
Wasteland Strangler:
This card is a beating. Always a 2-for-1 and it comes down as early as turn 2 for them.
Bolt Snap-Bolt:
This is an easy 3-for-2 for our opponent and it comes down fast, similar to Wasteland Strangler.
Wall of Omens/Wall of Roots/Spellskite, early Tasigur/Gurmag:
When my opponent gets down early blockers, it really slows us down. Sometimes you can go wide of the walls, but when you lose an attacker to Tasigur/Gurmag each time you swing, you really are in a tight spot.
Board Wipes:
Usually the only wipes that are fast enough are Pyroclasm, Kozilek's Return, Drown in Sorrow. If you get hit with one, it's hard to recover, especially because our payoff spells get better with more creatures in play.
Stumbling to my own sequencing:
This will likely improve with practice, but I've found that it's not always easy to choose the right order to cast our spells. Often times you have to trade off pumping Swiftspear vs. holding a spell back for Surge next turn. Or, do I use my Bushwhacker now, or play out all my guys to get max value from it next turn? The answers are not always clear.
Other thoughts on the deck-
I really like the 1 Devastating Summons. It's great flood insurance and combos very well with a Bushwhacker. I often sac all my lands and pray it's enough to close out the game (it always has been so far).
Having green in the deck is not a negligible cost. I often get tripped up using the RG from BTE, and knowing when to use manamorphose to get RG instead of RR is tough.
I like the idea behind the switch from Probe + FSD to Bolt + Mutagenic Growth. I don't think the full 8-for-8 trade is correct, but I think I'll start messing around with those numbers and see what works.
Sideboarding is very unfamiliar to me with this deck. It's not always straight forward. When cutting cards I usually try to cut down the same ratios. For example, +3 Blood Moon, -1 Manamorphose, -1 Reckless Bushwhacker, -1 Burning-Tree Emissary.
Does nothing against board sweepers (possibly more worrisome than countermagic). Not sure it warrants spot in the 75.
Here's a rough example. Our deck has 14 lands + 4 SSG, we're on the play and it's our turn 2, and we've seen 2 mana sources-
If those two lands were two mountains, our next draw has 16/52 or 30.77% chance to be a mana source.
If those two lands were fetches, our next draw has 14/50 or 28% chance to be a mana source.
It's very insignificant either way, but I hate flooding out, so I run 4 SSG, 9 Fetches, 1 Stomping Ground, and 4 Mountains as my mana base.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
Discard is no fun to play against. I think the best way to go here is to know your deck is more consistent than their discard. Decks that run discard usually only run 4-5, and 2-3 are usually thoughtseize. I don't see this as too much of an issue. I guess you can mulligan if your hand only has 1-2 good cards in it. I have found the redundancy of the deck to fight this pretty well.
These kinds of plays have been difficult for me to handle with any version of goblins. When playing against B/X eldrazi, try to not put a card in your GY on T1 if possible (i know it is difficult with fetches) - this will slow down the stranglers. Against Snap + bolt I am sort of hoping that with twin gone this is a rarity for at least a little while. I don't see control decks running this package doing all that well in the near future meta. Grixis has been a good matchup for me in the past since they seem to hurt themselves a lot for their manabase, and are very weak to blood moon.
I have found Dolmen Gate (suggested by MedRage) to be a good answer for blockers. Sometimes you have to do an alpha strike against a couple tarmogoyfs - which is even easier in the goblin surge build since you can chain creatures and then give them haste. In all my playing of no lords, I have yet to lose to a board wipe. They just are not common in modern. Unfortunately this could change with the perceived rise in aggro post-twin world. Playing around board wipes is all experience. You have to be able to feel out the odds of it happening while playing, and then act appropriately. Gitaxian Probe is sure to help you figure out what plays to make.
Choosing between FSD, MSS, and Guide as a T1 play is the toughest choice. I always make this decision based on what is in my opening hand. Each play with this deck you have to consider all of your lines, and then pick the one that has the best chances of sucess. Sometimes I rely on the top of my deck - and sometimes it really pays off.
Sideboarding is something I also need to work on. It is not intuitive since we don't really have any cards that say "please side me out" in the MD. Either way, I wouldn't side more than 3-4 cards in most matchups.
Tonight I will take my list to FNM and see how it goes - I will report back! Unless the store doesn't have the bushwhackers I pre-ordered. This would make me very very sad.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
By the way, your deck appears to be a card short. I imagine you forgot the singleton Devastating Summons?
Dolmen Gate is interesting. Does it really provide enough advantage by allowing you to attack through beefy blockers multiple times? It seems like it could work, I'm just wary about cards that don't do much on there own, especially at 2cmc. What matches do you side it in?
Good catch! That's right, +1 Devastating Summons. I even double counted!
On another note, I'm not particularly impressed with Mutagenic Growth right now, especially when it competes with Lightning Bolt for a maindeck spot. Maybe I'm not using it properly, but here's how I typically play Mutagenic:
As a "free" spell for Reckless Bushwhacker. Costing 0 here is much better than bolt's 1cmc.
Pumping an unblocked creature. 0 mana for 2 life is a good trade, but not significantly better than bolting to the face.
In response to an opposing bolt. There are only 3 creatures in my build that will be saved by this tactic, Guide, BTE, and Swiftspear. If you can save a creature, that's just a 1-for-1, if you can save a creature AND get the +2 power during combat, that's a win for us.
Pumping a blocked creature to prevent it from dying. This situation seems good, but I'd rather have bolted my opponent's creature and let my creature attack through in the first place!
Overall, the advantages to Mutagenic Growth are it's interactions with Reckless Bushwhacker, and the potential to save one of our creatures from a bolt while dealing 2 extra damage. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant a spot in the main deck over Lightning Bolt, which is much more flexible, and provides reach when our opponent's have stabilized the board. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this
Note that Mutagenic Growth can save Monastery Swiftspear AND another creature from Kozilek's Return.
I'm guessing that with Twin/Bloom out, everyone is gearing up to stop Zoo and other random creature brews?
This deck can quickly get out of hand. Their creatures come down fast and are good at blocking ours. If they stick an Archdruid it's really hard to get past them. And Collected Company helps them keep swarming when we run out of gas. I've found that my best chances of winning are when I can get in some quick damage Turn 1 and 2, and finish with Goblin Grenade and Bolt.
I'm not running any Forked Bolts in the sideboard, but I'm thinking about it. Right now I have 2 Lightning Bolts main and 2 in the side.
I could see Dolmen Gate being ok in this matchup, but if we waste too much time deploying it, their deck can retaliate very quickly with Ezuri pumps.
Now that u guys mentioned fanatics, dont u think that this new brews will miss them? I feel we're having too little interaction. Please note that im saying that just by looking at the decks, havent got a chance to play this builds.
@rogomatic, im rly interested on your build, specially the budget part since I also dont own guides lol. How do u feel about mutagenic? I remember it was on the deck u posted a few pages back. I think it has very good sinergy with mss and reckless
I didn't have Mutagenic Growth in any of my list -- you must be thinking about some of jwelt's lists perhaps? The idea is that they have synergy with both Swiftspear and FSD. The gameplan was to drop FSD/SS T1, follow up with some combination of token commands and Burning-Tree Emissary, then finish off with bushwhackers/grenades/bolts. I also had Signal Pest as an alternative pump, but I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. I will try swapping them out for Gitaxian Probe to smooth out the deck a little bit and help with bushwhacker surge.
This gameplan looked a lot better when the meta wasn't full of board wipes. It may be different this time around, in which case we're back to the drawing board.
You're right, I probably saw it on some other list...
Anyway, I'm looking forward for updates, I'll probably be testing some variations too and let u guys know if I get good results.
Your point about the meta is also very important, we may have to tweek most of our lists thinking about board wipes.
I've never had too much of an issue with Elves. Sure, sometimes they have a god-hand that you just can't stop, but so do we. Be aware of what NEEDS to die on sight (HERITAGE DRUID!!!) and burn them out as fast as possible. They aren't generally willing to trade creatures with you so use that to your advantage. If you keep them on the back foot, you should be fine.
Also, Bushwhacker + Legion Loyalist should be the MVPs of that matchup.