@Medrage 14 lands seem a tad too risky to run. Have you tried 14 and 2 SSG before?
Closest was 14 and 4 SSG, and I did pretty good with that deck. But 14 and 2 SSG might end up being too little. I will be goldfishing (with the new bushwhacker as well) with that amount today though.
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'We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.' - Goblin Chieftain
I'm loving the new Bushbro, and I started to call 8whack parts Kickwhacker and Surgewhacker. Anyhow, I wrote a short blog post about my view of the impact of Surgewhacker in post-Oath modern.
I didn't include SSGs in my 75, albeit I could have since they seem awesome. That's also why my land count is 17, but I might to up to 18 since we need to hit two lands (especially without SSG). Back in the day, Kai Budde was supposably asked why do Germans play more lands than others, and he said half jokingly because they like to play their spells more. I'm leaving Atarka's Command in atm, but will see how it performs. Even turn 1 Guide/Foudry/Loyalist in turn 2 BTE + Surgewhacker is a scary play.
Mark my words, goblins are getting good. This just might be what we needed.
Nice blog post! What would a kudoltha deck look like with "bushbro?" - lol I like that name
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I'm loving the new Bushbro, and I started to call 8whack parts Kickwhacker and Surgewhacker. Anyhow, I wrote a short blog post about my view of the impact of Surgewhacker in post-Oath modern.
I didn't include SSGs in my 75, albeit I could have since they seem awesome. That's also why my land count is 17, but I might to up to 18 since we need to hit two lands (especially without SSG). Back in the day, Kai Budde was supposably asked why do Germans play more lands than others, and he said half jokingly because they like to play their spells more. I'm leaving Atarka's Command in atm, but will see how it performs. Even turn 1 Guide/Foudry/Loyalist in turn 2 BTE + Surgewhacker is a scary play.
Mark my words, goblins are getting good. This just might be what we needed.
Nice writeup; you might be right about Kudoltha. And they might be getting the biggest boast in power from this guy. I think he'll also have a place in a Boros Allies deck (not yet a tier, but it's getting there). I've already bought my allies to try it out when he is released. Him and Akoum Battlesinger make a sick team.
I don't think he belongs in UR or R goblins storm; I don't even like running 4 bushwhackers in those builds. You need a critical mass of spells to get big storms and having too many "do nothing unless tokens are in play" cards, makes for some awkward draws.
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'We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.' - Goblin Chieftain
Yeah... NEVER try 14 lands/2 SSG with 10 2 drops! Just didn't work out lol....
So, I had some time to play with Reckless (i used a different 2 drop to represent him; but in my head - i added up as if he was doing what he could.)
In the RW speed build - I replaced Kytheon with him. So I played 50 goldfish games with 4 different version of the deck (this took about 2 hours as I'm getting insanely fast at goldfishing.) I wasn't happy with the results with any of them (as far as turn 3 kill rate goes.) I was having a hard time getting Reckless to function correctly. I was really down on Reckless after this was all done.
I started looking at the cards and feeling like I needed to shake things up a bit. Increase the free spells; and drop the 2 cards that I think keep people from playing this deck (Fury and Chancellor). I did it to see if I could get a decent turn 3 win % without them. And... well... In 50 games - I killed on turn 3 70% of the time. I previously did not think this was possible without Horde and Chancellor, but the new goblin and Mutagenic helped tremendously.
For people who are uneasy about playing the Fury/Chancellor version of the turn 3 kill deck - this looks like it will be a viable option.
Note: I don't think running only Burning-Tree as the free spell to play before Reckless is going to work for you guys. It didn't work for me. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say you should have at least 8 'free' spells or an amount of mana (19+) that makes casting a 1 drop before him on turn 3/4 much more likely.
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'We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.' - Goblin Chieftain
@Medrage nice list! I was also thinking about increasing the free spells in order to fully maximize the new whacker. I was also pondering on using mutagenic growth as well. Mutagenic can also help us to prevent losing tempo on a T1 piledriver that eats a bolt in response.
it's funny when i just played a game vs pauper goblins on cockatrice that could give the primer decklists a run for their money.
in legacy my friend has thalia mainboarded after he copied some pros list
ps add cavern of souls to the primer it's unfair good with no downside really in modern to not run 4
Have you tried manamorphose? What are your thoughts on that card?
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spec.ops - IANAJ, but the way Fury of the Horde is worded leads me to believe you cannot cast it first main with any desired effect. It seems like you can cast it, it just won't work the way you want it to.
imseeingred2 - Yep, pauper goblins can be very strong. We're practically pauper, just with Goblin Guide instead of Raging Goblin or something. About your other point, Cavern of Souls does have a drawback; have you ever tried to cast burn spells with it? After playing the RG version with Bolts, Grenades, and Atarka's Commands, I ran into more games that Cavern was bad than I ran into games I played against decks with counterspells. In a mono-red build I could see it, or if you're stretching your mana into Jund I can see it (but never tested myself), but with 13 spells in my maindeck that it doesn't contribute to I'm disinclined to play Cavern.
A question: SSG is always that good? I'm testing him but sometimes It just feels awkward. When you draw 2 on initial hand + 1~2 lands It feels... awful. You need luck on your next draws or you're already out of gas. I really don't like him as a creature also ( 3 mana for a 2/2 without haste :S )
It's not much different from drawing ~3-4 lands in your initial hand, and the likelihood should be about the same. The way I see it, when SSG is good, it's good. When it's bad, it's not (much) worse than a land.
Also, a hypothetical question (yes, I know there is a budget forum): if I'm not to shell out for Goblin Guides, what are some other options for the all-in version? I used to run Monastery Swiftspears, but with the new bushwacker, I'm running low on noncreature spells to feed prowess.
goblin cohort is a good budget replacement to goblin guide. Not much else besides forking over the doe to get them.
The problem is that Goblin Cohort is 4 damage by T3, and Monastery Swiftspear (or any other 1cc haster) is 3 damage. So SS plus one spell is at least as good as any other 2/* without haste.
So when the game plan was to go from a T2 Krenko's Command/Dragon Fodder into a T3 overrun effect, SS was 5 damage. Now that all the overrun effects will come from goblins, SS becomes less desirable. Time to go back to the drawing board.
goblin cohort is a good budget replacement to goblin guide. Not much else besides forking over the doe to get them.
The problem is that Goblin Cohort is 4 damage by T3, and Monastery Swiftspear (or any other 1cc haster) is 3 damage. So SS plus one spell is at least as good as any other 2/* without haste.
So when the game plan was to go from a T2 Krenko's Command/Dragon Fodder into a T3 overrun effect, SS was 5 damage. Now that all the overrun effects will come from goblins, SS becomes less desirable. Time to go back to the drawing board.
Unless your plan is to include a bunch of free spells. Then swiftspear looks pretty nice. I also like the two toughness and that its pump effect provides toughness as well. Very easy to mess up combat maths
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Whoa whoa whoa - in no way are caverns a 'must' - they CAN be included in certain builds, but Cavern doesn't tap for red or green (in Atarka builds). For a deck that can keep one land hands and occasionally win through them, that land cannot be a cavern.
you certainly can attack twice, but the untap is a condition of the spell resolving and thus you won't be able to attack again with creatures who attacked the first time. there are certainly some scenarios where this would be relevant, but most of the time I assume you'd want to utilize the untap effect.
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Closest was 14 and 4 SSG, and I did pretty good with that deck. But 14 and 2 SSG might end up being too little. I will be goldfishing (with the new bushwhacker as well) with that amount today though.
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka’s Command
4 Goblin Grenade
Lands (17)
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
I didn't include SSGs in my 75, albeit I could have since they seem awesome. That's also why my land count is 17, but I might to up to 18 since we need to hit two lands (especially without SSG). Back in the day, Kai Budde was supposably asked why do Germans play more lands than others, and he said half jokingly because they like to play their spells more. I'm leaving Atarka's Command in atm, but will see how it performs. Even turn 1 Guide/Foudry/Loyalist in turn 2 BTE + Surgewhacker is a scary play.
Mark my words, goblins are getting good. This just might be what we needed.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Nice writeup; you might be right about Kudoltha. And they might be getting the biggest boast in power from this guy. I think he'll also have a place in a Boros Allies deck (not yet a tier, but it's getting there). I've already bought my allies to try it out when he is released. Him and Akoum Battlesinger make a sick team.
I don't think he belongs in UR or R goblins storm; I don't even like running 4 bushwhackers in those builds. You need a critical mass of spells to get big storms and having too many "do nothing unless tokens are in play" cards, makes for some awkward draws.
So, I had some time to play with Reckless (i used a different 2 drop to represent him; but in my head - i added up as if he was doing what he could.)
In the RW speed build - I replaced Kytheon with him. So I played 50 goldfish games with 4 different version of the deck (this took about 2 hours as I'm getting insanely fast at goldfishing.) I wasn't happy with the results with any of them (as far as turn 3 kill rate goes.) I was having a hard time getting Reckless to function correctly. I was really down on Reckless after this was all done.
I started looking at the cards and feeling like I needed to shake things up a bit. Increase the free spells; and drop the 2 cards that I think keep people from playing this deck (Fury and Chancellor). I did it to see if I could get a decent turn 3 win % without them. And... well... In 50 games - I killed on turn 3 70% of the time. I previously did not think this was possible without Horde and Chancellor, but the new goblin and Mutagenic helped tremendously.
Here's what I was running:
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Memnite
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Grenade
For people who are uneasy about playing the Fury/Chancellor version of the turn 3 kill deck - this looks like it will be a viable option.
Note: I don't think running only Burning-Tree as the free spell to play before Reckless is going to work for you guys. It didn't work for me. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say you should have at least 8 'free' spells or an amount of mana (19+) that makes casting a 1 drop before him on turn 3/4 much more likely.
Can I play Fury of the Horde in main phase one and still attack twice?
Or, do I have to wait till main phase two so I can attack twice?
YOUTUBE CHANNEL: GOBOTS
in legacy my friend has thalia mainboarded after he copied some pros list
ps add cavern of souls to the primer it's unfair good with no downside really in modern to not run 4
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
main phase 2
imseeingred2 - Yep, pauper goblins can be very strong. We're practically pauper, just with Goblin Guide instead of Raging Goblin or something. About your other point, Cavern of Souls does have a drawback; have you ever tried to cast burn spells with it? After playing the RG version with Bolts, Grenades, and Atarka's Commands, I ran into more games that Cavern was bad than I ran into games I played against decks with counterspells. In a mono-red build I could see it, or if you're stretching your mana into Jund I can see it (but never tested myself), but with 13 spells in my maindeck that it doesn't contribute to I'm disinclined to play Cavern.
It's not much different from drawing ~3-4 lands in your initial hand, and the likelihood should be about the same. The way I see it, when SSG is good, it's good. When it's bad, it's not (much) worse than a land.
Also, a hypothetical question (yes, I know there is a budget forum): if I'm not to shell out for Goblin Guides, what are some other options for the all-in version? I used to run Monastery Swiftspears, but with the new bushwacker, I'm running low on noncreature spells to feed prowess.
Cavern's are a must to have 1-2 is usually the correct number.
It is in the primer under the land section
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
The problem is that Goblin Cohort is 4 damage by T3, and Monastery Swiftspear (or any other 1cc haster) is 3 damage. So SS plus one spell is at least as good as any other 2/* without haste.
So when the game plan was to go from a T2 Krenko's Command/Dragon Fodder into a T3 overrun effect, SS was 5 damage. Now that all the overrun effects will come from goblins, SS becomes less desirable. Time to go back to the drawing board.
Unless your plan is to include a bunch of free spells. Then swiftspear looks pretty nice. I also like the two toughness and that its pump effect provides toughness as well. Very easy to mess up combat maths
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague