Yeah I don't understand the unflinching courage. Was he expecting burn decks? Wooded Bastion also seems suspect.
Maybe he expected the Gruul Zoo decks but I still like Spirit Link more.
I think maybe he planned on getting early Dryad Arbors or Forests and wanted to be able to Daybreak or double Ethereal Armor/Hyena Umbra or Double Keen Sense/Spider Umbra. He is playing 4 of each. It also saves life if he gets it early on. But Fetching into Shocks seems more consistent to me.
I find it interesting he doesn't have Paths mainboard. I lowered my Path count to 2 in my mainboard but I don't like cutting them entirely. He probably expected a lot of U/W/R control but if he did, he would have sided in nature's claim or Stony Silences since their best weapon against us is Spellskite.
Maybe he expected the Gruul Zoo decks but I still like Spirit Link more.
I think maybe he planned on getting early Dryad Arbors or Forests and wanted to be able to Daybreak or double Ethereal Armor/Hyena Umbra or Double Keen Sense/Spider Umbra. He is playing 4 of each. It also saves life if he gets it early on. But Fetching into Shocks seems more consistent to me.
I find it interesting he doesn't have Paths mainboard. I lowered my Path count to 2 in my mainboard but I don't like cutting them entirely. He probably expected a lot of U/W/R control but if he did, he would have sided in nature's claim or Stony Silences since their best weapon against us is Spellskite.
He said the decks he was expecting were UWR Control, Pod, Jund and Scapeshift. (I think in that order) It sounded like he just didn't care about blockers and was happy to trample over them with lifegain.
He said the decks he was expecting were UWR Control, Pod, Jund and Scapeshift. (I think in that order) It sounded like he just didn't care about blockers and was happy to trample over them with lifegain.
True. But pod and Jund both has blockers. Depending on the scapeshift build, life gain is irrelevant. in the end unflinching is 3 mana for +2/2 that's not efficient for 3 mana IMO.
My question now, is now that it's going to be played in the semifinals of the World Championships, can we move this from Established to Proven?
Seriously?
Look at Eternal Command from last year's Worlds. One high-level event does not a top deck make.
The meta for Worlds is also vastly different from what you'd see at a GP or PTQ or on MTGO. Each individual player makes up a larger portion of the meta (1 player = 6.25%) and combo is less likely to be played because the final rounds are best of 5 (combo usually has poor post-SB win rates).
Have tried Unflinching Courage in about 20 games today.
Played it as a 2 off, and Keen Sense as a 2 off.
Results are pretty nice.
Note that i still play 4 Spirit Mantle.
Don't dismiss Courage just as +2/+2. With Lifelink and evasion its far more than that.
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Have tried Unflinching Courage in about 20 games today.
Played it as a 2 off, and Keen Sense as a 2 off.
Results are pretty nice.
Note that i still play 4 Spirit Mantle.
Don't dismiss Courage just as +2/+2. With Lifelink and evasion its far more than that.
It's great. The only downside is it's a 3 drop. I would personally play it if mana wasn't a problem for me.
As a fan of budget decks, I like this one a lot. Now, how necessary are fetches in this deck? Are they used mainly for the liliana-dryad arbor interaction? I'd be interested in building this mainly for LGS tournaments (although guys there play pretty competitive decks), do you think I could fare well without fetches? Say, using things like razorverge thickett instead?
Razorverge are already a 4 of. You need fetches so you can get double green and double white easily in this deck.
Unflinching courage does double duty in giving both evasion and lifegain as opposed to only one of each in spirit link or spirit mantle. I recommend watching the deck tech to see why he chose his aura set.
Unflinching courage does double duty in giving both evasion and lifegain as opposed to only one of each in spirit link or spirit mantle. I recommend watching the deck tech to see why he chose his aura set.
No one has ever denied this. The only thing I don't like is the 3 cost. Sometimes you get 4 lands sometimes you barely get 2. The deck is too inconsistent to play this card imo.
With 20 lands i rarely have a problem to be at 3 Lands by turn3 or turn4.
Then courage, like coronet, will get the game done, because most decks cant handle the lifegain on your big dude. So i would see courage as a finisher spell. I often found myself to need more lifegain sources versus everything aggro'ish. Also you could see that in the worlds: some people will just try to aggro you out, so if you can net a few life, you are good to go. And since people will allways be staring at your coronet, trying to remove it, courage as a 2 or 3 off feels good here.
On another note, i tested out playing 3 Keen Sense, adds a lot of resilience. Though i still think 4 is too much.
At the moment, i have cut down to 2 Spirit Mantle - not beeing sure if 2 is enough. Mantle makes your damage sure and speeds up most games for you. Still a lot of testing going on here, will show if 2 Courage/3 Mantle or vice versa is right.
I play with this deck for 3 months now with some good results.
I can't understand how to not play path to exile main deck
So many deck have spellskite main deck like Twin.
In game 1 without path, if your opponent play spellskite on turn 2 you can concede directly.
And path could help you against :
POD or twin before assembling combo
Infect or Affinity (on a big Inkmoth Nexus equiped)
Elves on heritage or sentinel
....
Courage could help you only against some deck that you already win like RDW, zoo, merfolk, life,...
This choice is really strange for me, someone can explain the advantages of playing courage and to not playing path to exile main deck ?
Reid Duke made a meta call. He predicted the field to be mostly Jund and UWR both of which PtE is horrible to draw and life gain helps put Bogle out of reach. Everyone looking at his list needs to understand that it was tuned for Worlds, I would not recommend a deck list with zero PtE.
Winning one event does not make a deck "proven" I would say...especially when it's a multi-format affair.
Not many people play the deck. Not many people want to play it due to the lack of interaction. Subsequently, not many people place well with it, especially with a somewhat negative jund matchup.
This is still the right forum for the deck I believe.
Winning one event does not make a deck "proven" I would say...especially when it's a multi-format affair.
Not many people play the deck. Not many people want to play it due to the lack of interaction. Subsequently, not many people place well with it, especially with a somewhat negative jund matchup.
This is still the right forum for the deck I believe.
Even if that event is worlds? That isn't some lowly PTQ or Grand Prix.
Monk: It's still one result in a 4 (or was it 3? Was m14 draft included?) format affair where Reid picked it only because he guessed enough other people would play uwr. Oh, and minor thing...he lost to Shahar in the finals.
Grokh: I believe the deck has morphed into a more aggressive affair than even the ugw version you started with. The current iteration is somewhat more "all in" than the original (due to not being able to drop something on Geist and call it a day) but it also gained enough speed to compete with combo decks. I do not know which version is better today as most people have forgotten about the ugw version, but due to speed, I'd go with gw.
The current iteration came about after a couple ptq t8s online and I do not know if the progenitor of those lists saw your's or not.
I'll be adding a section to the primer about why the deck doesn't play Blue. Blue has been proven 'dead weight' in this deck for almost a year now.
Granted the deck's origins are in Bant, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we have the MtGO community to thank for cutting Blue, adding Dryad Arbor, and tuning the deck to the lean machine it is today.
The deck performs the exact same function but at a more consistent rate when it's only G/W. Mainly it's in the fact that the mana can produce turn 1 Green, turn two any combination of Green and White, and turn 3 double White. That allows the deck to get more explosive hands and curve out the nuts on a consistent basis. With blue in the deck, it makes it harder to resolve a Coronet if you are playing with Breeding Pools instead of Razorverge Thickets and harder to drop a turn one Bogle/Scout if you got a pair of Hallowed Fountains in your opener.
It's also been well proven that the deck can run off of 12-14 creatures and comparison between Silhana Ledgewalker and Invisible Stalker is close enough to discount any argument that Stalker should be included. Also, unblockablility can be obtained through Spirit Mantle and Trample is huge in the format considering the creatures with the fattest bottoms are Tarmogoyf and Restoration Angel.
Geist is a three drop and that immediately discounts any use since the average Bogle deck caps at 2 CMC on the curve. The Blue auras are overshadowed by current aura package and Curiosity is easily replaced by the shifted Keen Sense.
If I overlooked anything, please speak up fellow Bogle players so I can keep the primer accurate.
Grokh, welcome to the discussion! If you have anymore questions or want to share your decklist we look forward to more discussions
Maybe he expected the Gruul Zoo decks but I still like Spirit Link more.
I think maybe he planned on getting early Dryad Arbors or Forests and wanted to be able to Daybreak or double Ethereal Armor/Hyena Umbra or Double Keen Sense/Spider Umbra. He is playing 4 of each. It also saves life if he gets it early on. But Fetching into Shocks seems more consistent to me.
I find it interesting he doesn't have Paths mainboard. I lowered my Path count to 2 in my mainboard but I don't like cutting them entirely. He probably expected a lot of U/W/R control but if he did, he would have sided in nature's claim or Stony Silences since their best weapon against us is Spellskite.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Seriously?
DFW L1 judge
Apparently 'Just getting started' still applies even though I've been on here since 2008...
He said the decks he was expecting were UWR Control, Pod, Jund and Scapeshift. (I think in that order) It sounded like he just didn't care about blockers and was happy to trample over them with lifegain.
True. But pod and Jund both has blockers. Depending on the scapeshift build, life gain is irrelevant. in the end unflinching is 3 mana for +2/2 that's not efficient for 3 mana IMO.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
If Reid Duke crushes worlds with it, then i am totally down for this... they play modern on Sunday right?
R/U/W Splinter Twin
U/W Hexproof (modern)
G/W/B Hexproof (standard)
L1 (August 13/2013)
Look at Eternal Command from last year's Worlds. One high-level event does not a top deck make.
The meta for Worlds is also vastly different from what you'd see at a GP or PTQ or on MTGO. Each individual player makes up a larger portion of the meta (1 player = 6.25%) and combo is less likely to be played because the final rounds are best of 5 (combo usually has poor post-SB win rates).
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Big Johnny.
Played it as a 2 off, and Keen Sense as a 2 off.
Results are pretty nice.
Note that i still play 4 Spirit Mantle.
Don't dismiss Courage just as +2/+2. With Lifelink and evasion its far more than that.
It's great. The only downside is it's a 3 drop. I would personally play it if mana wasn't a problem for me.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Razorverge are already a 4 of. You need fetches so you can get double green and double white easily in this deck.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
No one has ever denied this. The only thing I don't like is the 3 cost. Sometimes you get 4 lands sometimes you barely get 2. The deck is too inconsistent to play this card imo.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Then courage, like coronet, will get the game done, because most decks cant handle the lifegain on your big dude. So i would see courage as a finisher spell. I often found myself to need more lifegain sources versus everything aggro'ish. Also you could see that in the worlds: some people will just try to aggro you out, so if you can net a few life, you are good to go. And since people will allways be staring at your coronet, trying to remove it, courage as a 2 or 3 off feels good here.
On another note, i tested out playing 3 Keen Sense, adds a lot of resilience. Though i still think 4 is too much.
At the moment, i have cut down to 2 Spirit Mantle - not beeing sure if 2 is enough. Mantle makes your damage sure and speeds up most games for you. Still a lot of testing going on here, will show if 2 Courage/3 Mantle or vice versa is right.
Here is my most recent list:
Reid Duke made a meta call. He predicted the field to be mostly Jund and UWR both of which PtE is horrible to draw and life gain helps put Bogle out of reach. Everyone looking at his list needs to understand that it was tuned for Worlds, I would not recommend a deck list with zero PtE.
Not many people play the deck. Not many people want to play it due to the lack of interaction. Subsequently, not many people place well with it, especially with a somewhat negative jund matchup.
This is still the right forum for the deck I believe.
Even if that event is worlds? That isn't some lowly PTQ or Grand Prix.
Grokh: I believe the deck has morphed into a more aggressive affair than even the ugw version you started with. The current iteration is somewhat more "all in" than the original (due to not being able to drop something on Geist and call it a day) but it also gained enough speed to compete with combo decks. I do not know which version is better today as most people have forgotten about the ugw version, but due to speed, I'd go with gw.
The current iteration came about after a couple ptq t8s online and I do not know if the progenitor of those lists saw your's or not.
Granted the deck's origins are in Bant, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we have the MtGO community to thank for cutting Blue, adding Dryad Arbor, and tuning the deck to the lean machine it is today.
The deck performs the exact same function but at a more consistent rate when it's only G/W. Mainly it's in the fact that the mana can produce turn 1 Green, turn two any combination of Green and White, and turn 3 double White. That allows the deck to get more explosive hands and curve out the nuts on a consistent basis. With blue in the deck, it makes it harder to resolve a Coronet if you are playing with Breeding Pools instead of Razorverge Thickets and harder to drop a turn one Bogle/Scout if you got a pair of Hallowed Fountains in your opener.
It's also been well proven that the deck can run off of 12-14 creatures and comparison between Silhana Ledgewalker and Invisible Stalker is close enough to discount any argument that Stalker should be included. Also, unblockablility can be obtained through Spirit Mantle and Trample is huge in the format considering the creatures with the fattest bottoms are Tarmogoyf and Restoration Angel.
Geist is a three drop and that immediately discounts any use since the average Bogle deck caps at 2 CMC on the curve. The Blue auras are overshadowed by current aura package and Curiosity is easily replaced by the shifted Keen Sense.
If I overlooked anything, please speak up fellow Bogle players so I can keep the primer accurate.
Grokh, welcome to the discussion!