I'm playing Bogles a lot... but it seems so fragile in so many matches for me. Sometimes it seems to need more evasion... sometimes it seems to need more power... sometimes it seems to need more protection... sometimes it seems to need more consistency... sometimes it seems to need more interaction... and in the end there are not enough auras to fill all these blank spaces. Don't get me wrong, I love the deck, but it can be frustrating here and there.
1) What about Sigarda's Aid? I know Bogles doesn't really need instant speed, but I think this could really make the combat more aggressive once the opponent doesn't know what we are about to cast to make our creatures even more monstrous. Sigarda's Aid would even make Helm of the Gods viable.
2) Is there any powerful list of Bogles that plays Arcanum Wings combo? Aura Swap ability + some powerful but high CMC auras (Spectra Ward, Eldrazi Conscription, etc) seems tempting.
3) What about Umbra Mystic? It’s ability grants totem armor to all our auras! For 2W, It’s presence on the field is great.
The problem with most of the things you suggest, is that it completely ruins what little consistency the deck has. You talk about wanting more consistency but that would not be the effect of the cards you suggest.
To get back to the basics, most "fair" decks are generally trying to draw a good mixture of lands and spells. If you draw too many spells, you won't have lands to cast them. If you draw too few spells, your opponent can trade 1-for-1 and outvalue you. Bogles takes this to the next level by requiring three separate components to function. Lands, creatures and auras. If you draw too few of one of these components, it's hard to win, and the opponent can focus his answers on the type you are lacking.
Cards like Sigarda's Aid and Helm of the Gods don't fill any of these three roles. They introduce a 4th role, cards that are only good if you already drew the other 3 types. Playing cards like that over additional creatures and/or auras will make the deck more inconsistent and vulnerable to answers. It's much easier to starve the deck from Auras if you replaced a bunch of them with utility cards like this. This is the reason why cards like Spirit Link and Keen Sense have always been kind of questionable.
Regarding the Arcanum Wings combo, it's simply too inconsistent. Both Arcanum Wings and Eldrazi Conscription are almost dead if you don't draw both, we have no good way of finding them, and even if you do they're still easily answerable. Against any deck that can't answer the combo, playing Rancor+Daybreak Coronet is likely good enough too. 3 mana is by no means a certain thing with this deck, frequently we have to operate on two lands which doesn't work with the combo.
Regarding cards like Umbra Mystic and Nomad Mythmaker, they're way too easy to answer and do nothing when answered. A general rule in modern is that any creature that gains neither value nor tempo against a removal spell is unplayable. In Bogles cards like that are particularly terrible because they turn on the otherwise dead removal spells. Even for cards that do provide tempo or value, 3 mana is still almost always too much for this deck and 4 mana for things like Wrath of God is simply unthinkable.
Yeah, you're right. I agree with almost everything you said... but I have some arguments in favor of 3x Sigarda's Aid in this deck. Considering it is in the field, we gain three important stuff that, without it, we don't have: (1) unpredictability; (2) efficiency when playing defensive, and (3) even more efficiency when playing offensive.
1 - Sigardas's Aid CMC is 1. This means this enchantment won't mess our curve and can be played in the same turn as almost any other aura in the deck. Can be played on turn 2 with ethereal armor and count as one more enchantment.
2 - Cause we can wait till after blockers are declared to play our auras, the coefficient of "mana cost to cast x utility of spell" goes above the ceiling.
3 - Once playing auras as instants we now have interaction with our opponent. We have a way to respond spells and abilities played in our opponent's turn.
4 - The combat step isn't as predictable as before. For bogles, the combat step is always predictable. The opponent knows everything we have: our creatures tapped, the creatures untapped, who is attacking, who will be possibly blocking next turn, the auras attached to them, their power and toughness, and know he can expect the only probably one instant we may have (path to exile). Our actual way to play is totally vulnerable and predictable. Even when we have advantage and play offensive we are still vulnerable to tons of instants. Deflecting Palm, for example, loses great part of its efficiency to ruin us: once our opponent have to choose the source as it resolves, if we play our first aura and he responds it, we can attach our next aura to another creature or even make some other emergency moves to avoid losing the game (like "pathing" our own creature with that untapped plains we left open to play our next aura).
5 - With totem armor and our other auras, we gain access to many new situations where we, the bogle player, now have advantage. Have you ever attacked with a 0/2 Kor Spiritdancer? If yes, have you ever played an aura instant speed to make a creature bigger and protect it? I did. While testing Nomad Mythmaker I had the chance to attack with a massive bogle and a 0/2 Spiritdancer... and guess what: my opponent threw all his creatures to block and kill my 17/17 trampling bogle and played a bolt to kill Spiritdancer. I responded the bolt with Nomad Mythmaker's ability, attached a rancor to Spiritdancer, saved her from the bolt, draw a card, assigned 4 damage to my opponent (the Spiritdancer became 4/4) and won the game that turn. Playing our auras as instants targeting Kor Spiritdancer can not only protect it, but can lead us to win the game by causing massive unexpected damage to the player.
6 - Spells that destroy permanents, like the famous overplayed duo Abrupt Decay & Assassin's Trophy, are not that scary anymore cause they can't be used to respond destroying auras that are still on the stack. If you know how to manage the stack properly and when to cast the auras instant speed, you'll be always able to bait that Decay and avoid the destruction of your Daybreak Coronet. The auras can be played even in response to Decay (to add one more aura before the resolution of Decay and avoid having just Coronet and the aura targeted by Decay attached to our creature) or after it resolved.
These are just some of the tons of advantage that we acquire while playing our great auras as instants. If you are an experient player and knows how to manage the stack properly, oh man you'll see how amazing Bogles will be while playing auras in response. As a long time infect player, I can tell you that isn't easy to manage the stack... it takes great effort and time to know the rules properly, but the reward comes fast.
That old "Bogles doesn't care about interaction" line isn't right. Every deck needs the maximum of interaction as possible. Bogles ins't different. Bogles, after all, demands desperately for flexibility and unpredictability. Being predictable is terrible... and boring.
It just doesn't work in this type of deck. First you have to look at what you would give up for the card vs its benefit. You would have to get rid of more impact enchantments to fit in something that is only situation ally good. Also, it slows down your most explosive turns.
Also, it isn't that bogles doesn't care about interaction. The point is we are blanking our opponents interaction through various ways. An umbra is like countering a sweeper, Playing a cartouche or fetching a dryad arbor, or the threat of fetching a dryab arbor, forces our opponent to play their edict effect one turn later and that is only if they also have a 1 mana removal spell in hand.
If you are having issues why don't you post your list and we can all go over it together.
The deck is what it is. They should add that in the primer and it should be written in the flavor text of the hexproof creatures. If it was consistent or any better it would be unstoppable. I think trying to make hexproof something it isn't is the biggest mistake people make when they play it. I'm all about a spicey one of or a suite of auras that isn't completely stock but if you mess with it too much you're just going to lose. It is definitely a fairly simple deck. It does reward tight play and good decisions just as much as any other deck though. I would focus all of your time into learning matchups and play lines rather then trying to change the deck. I think things like knowing your sideboard plan, when you can safely rely on Arbor, how aggressively to mulligan, when to be patient with Spiritdancer is when you can really start to increase your win percentage. And as with any deck, you're going to have those games/tournaments when you just f'in lose :).
How's everyone feeling about the new set? I hope we get some help. Not because I think we need it but because I think after these cards come out, if you didn't get better, you got worse! I would love to see Enlightneded Tutor. People seem to think Enchantress has a good chance of getting printed. Not an ideal card but we might be able to use it somewhere.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Tutor is 1 mana and is instant speed so you can cast it at the end of your oponents turn. Not sure what it would replace though. He is talking about Argothian.I am actually not sure how well that would do as spirit dancer does the same thing but is also a threat.
IMO the difference between the two is staggering. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if we got a brand new card from Horizons with a power level set in-between the two. OtA is something a lot of folks wanted to make work in the deck (and some bold souls continue to do so based on various tourney lists), but a 2cmc sorcery speed aura tutor is just awful in a deck where you're often forced to work with limited mana. Save for some sort of utility aura needed to get you out of a pinch, OtA is almost always Daybreak #5, so best case scenario is you hit all your land drops and have a suited up bogle in play with >1 auras attached on T4 w/ OtA in-hand and need Daybreak to closeout the game.
Enlightened Tutor can get you there a turn earlier under perfect conditions as it can be played on opponent's EoT. If we can't play it on our opponent's turn, a Horizon Canopy can get it into our hand once searched up. And what really separates the two IMO is that ET can go get any of our enchantments, rather than auras alone; this allows it to be played both offensively to dig up an aura or defensively to find one of our SB cards as needed. I think ET would do wonders in helping to increase our consistency and/or unlock the option for a tool-box style build and is a card that'd almost always be relevant in any given matchup.
However, despite the likelihood that ET would be a fair addition to Bogles, I ultimately believe we won't get it due to various other decks where tutoring up an artifact could lead to degeneracy. The power level of enchantments in Modern is paltry enough to where ET would be more than reasonable if it only let players find enchantments, unfortunately, I don't believe WotC would be comfortable dumping a 1cmc artifact tutor into the format. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the new Horizons cards were some sort of amalgamation between the two cards; something along the lines of: W - instant - Tutor up an enchantment, shuffle, and place on top of you lib (IMO this would still be conservative power-level wise; I don't think directly adding it to your hand would be broken considering the power level of both enchantments and white in Modern).
@JonConnor I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment that the need for a Horizons card is needed simply to not fall behind. This is actually the predominate reason why I think we'll get something of use. WotC has previously stated their desire to help out white and bolster that part of the color pie; that along with the lack of Modern enchantments-matter strategies make me believe we have a good shot at getting something useful.
On the whole, I'm still optimistic that WotC realizes Sylvan Library would be acceptable in Modern and unleash it into the format.
I think Enlightened Tutor would completely change the deck. I don't think it can even be compared to Armory. Any opening hand that has two lands and a tutor is: turn 2 stony or turn 2 RIP or turn 2 Cage or turn 2 spellskite.. The sideboard could be completely thinned out because any tutor in the opening hand would just be extra copies of hate cards. Not to mention the ability to play one aura on turn two and hold up tutor to fetch for coronet the following turn or spiritlink or boon or whatever you needed. I think it's not always the amount of auras. It's the quality of auras. And this helps that big time. You could even push it to the extreme of playing a 1 of Ornithopter so you had a creature to fetch up in a bind.. or a 1 of oppressive rays. Yes, those two are probably extremes, haha.. but who knows. I think the card is super powerful and probably won't be reprinted for that reason. I am definitely open to the fact that I could be totally wrong here but I just don't see how it misses.
I was talking about Argothian Enchantress. That was NOT my suggestion of a helpful reprint. I have just heard that card mentioned all over the place as potential for Modern Horizons. The draw and protection is nice but it seems really situational. I sense some frustrating games with a lone unenchantable enchantress staring back up at you from the battlefield :).
**And Joban8 - I completely agree about your thoughts on Tutor. Other decks would abuse that thing to no end. It would be on the banned list in a week.
Speaking of cards that seemingly go against our game plan, what are your thoughts on Serra the Benevolent as a SB option? I still see Worship pop up in sideboards every now and then and it would appear Serra is a strictly better replacement. Her +1 is largely irrelevant even if we happen to have a Gryff's Boon on the field, but having the option to create a Worship emblem the turn after she's played is pretty enticing. In addition, the ability to play around edict effects could be much more valuable after we see everything we're getting from Horizons; I still find it unlikely that True-Name will be in the set, but in a scenario where it does get added to the Modern card-pool, some number of edicts would surely be added to the format as well.
If you cast Worship against a creature deck, that can just be GG right away. If you cast Serra the Benevolent against a creature deck, they just kill it and you have nothing. The two cards are not comparable at all and calling Serra a "strictly better Worship" is kind of weird to be honest. If Serra the Benevolent sees any play at all it will be in decks that are reasonably happy with a 4 mana 4/4 flyer. Bogles certainly isn't, and the bar for a 4-mana spell is EXTREMELY high for this deck. A 4 mana spell that said "You win the game" would probably be worth it, but it couldn't be much worse than that.
Regarding Enlightened Tutor vs Open the Armory, it's simply that there aren't enough toolbox auras to fetch. Enlightened Tutor fetches cards like Rest in Peace, Stony Silence, Grafdigger's Cage and Spellskite, and importantly does so fast enough that you can still cast them on turn 2. Running 2-3 maindeck would also let you play interesting enchantments like Eidolon of Rhetoric in the sideboard. Even game 1 when you most likely want to fetch Coronet with it, it's much easier to fit into the curve to allow for a turn 3 Coronet compared to Open the Armory. I think Enlightened Tutor is very unlikely to be reprinted though.
The downsides of Enlightened Tutor would be that you're still paying a mana and a card for it, which probably isn't worth it just for the maindeck auras. This is also why Sterling Grove probably isn't worth it even with the shroud benefit. Both cards get significantly better post sideboard though. Argothian Enchantress would be interesting, hard to say if it would be worth it.
I figure Enlightened Tutor also won't be reprinted because it's another way to find Ensnaring Bridge. I feel that Wizards is going to be careful with that card, especially with a deck that runs 4 of those, 4 Whir of Invention, 4 Welding Jar, AND 4 SB Spellskite actually doing pretty well right now.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I figure Enlightened Tutor also won't be reprinted because it's another way to find Ensnaring Bridge. I feel that Wizards is going to be careful with that card, especially with a deck that runs 4 of those, 4 Whir of Invention, 4 Welding Jar, AND 4 SB Spellskite actually doing pretty well right now.
That's the thing when you start to think about helpful cards. I feel like alot of potential cards would make hexproof strong but something else stronger. Any card similar to tutor would make it that much easier for another deck to find EE, chalice, spellskite, bridge... yikes.
I honestly would be content if the London mulligan rule works out and nothing got printed in MH. It's not even that it makes the deck that much better. It's just going to get rid of all those games where the deck doesn't even function. I'm totally fine with losing as long as I get to actually play.
Bogles probably won't benefit of the reprint of cards that are not legal in modern yet... old cards may turn this deck into an unstoppable machine or even make other decks unstoppable, breaking the format. Any new addition to Bogle's aura/enchantment armory has to be almost quite designed to specifically boost this deck (but not too much). The card can't be strictly/generally too powerful and can't be too weak or limited in a way that it's useless to us. It has to be powerful and limited in a way that it's real power shines only inside this deck so that the card won't break the format. Strong... but stronger inside bogles. Generally limited to cast or activate it's ability... but not too limited inside bogles. Not useful inside many decks... but really useful inside bogles. That's exactly what Daybreak Coronet is: powerful, but limited in a way that will be useful only inside of a deck that plays many auras... it shines only inside bogles, where it's limitation (to be attached only to a creature that already has an aura attached) is forgivable and "superfluous".
After all, it's not easy to create a strong aura that satisfy our refined taste and is still possible to be played in bogles. If any new strong aura has one bit of CMC beyond what is strictly necessary.. it is useless. If it has no boost effect.. it's (almost) useless. If it doesn't add any keyword ability... it's useless. If it is not green or white.. it's (almost) useless. If it adds just the same as the other auras we wave, it's useless. If it's just a bit slow or limited to cast or keep on the battlefield... it's useless.
You see? It's difficult to create a card that helps bogles and, at the same time, won't destroy Modern, legacy or commander. Tutor, in my opinion, probably will not see the modern fresh air... because it would certainly overboost any affinity deck (or artifact based deck).
So, let's hope they are looking to Bogles with some wide smile in their faces and gently help us in any way. Maybe a new creature? Maybe one more 1 CMC hexproof creature?
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's that difficult of a problem to solve/avoid. For a long time, enchantments just haven't been that relevant in Modern. Of course you got your RiP, Leylines, and various 1-2 ofs that can usually be found in SBs, but it would take a lot more than one new enchantment-oriented card to push Bogles into "an unstoppable machine" or break the format. Hell, even if WotC did print some ex machina card that catapulted Bogles into every top 8 under the sun, it wouldn't last very long to be considered T1. Theres no shortage of anti-enchantment SB hate, so if the deck were to ever start making up a percentage of the meta where enchantment hate is considered a must, that's when it'd fall back in line. Honestly, I don't even think we even necessarily need any new auras or enchantments, but rather something we can slot in to increase our consistency. I stick to my guns by saying Sylvan Library would do wonders for us without breaking any other archetype; it's a great card for the decks that need it, difficult to abuse, and has a drawback that makes it so only 1-2 copies find their way into a MB.
What do you guys think about a 2 CMC white enchantment that would let us swap auras between creatures? Once Serra, the planeswalker, was spoiled... What about something like Serra's Sanctum?
Hypothetically speaking, it sounds like it'd be interesting and worth testing out, especially if it allowed us to salvage 1+ auras in response to something like Spiritdancer getting path'd while we have a hexproof guy in play.
Serra's Sanctum would be the bee's knees, but it's a no-go so long as the reserve list exists.
Guessing what new cards we could get is pointless, but we can still look at some interesting non-RL cards that could potentially be ported over from Legacy, in addition to Sterling Grove and other mentioned previously:
During my tests, It is being proven to be really, really useful as a good cantrip. This card accelerates our game plan in a way totally different from Open the Armory. These two cards do not occupate the same space and function inside Bogles.
Game 1: let it resting on the battlefield waiting for the right moment... meanwhile it helps to buff Ethereal Armor. Ok, the "hard cast" cost is 1GG in one only turn, but you can pay it in two different turns and activate the ability as instant in the end of opponent's turn. Vessel can bring, during moments of necessity, creatures, artifacts, and even lands.. these pieces sometimes are really important to win the game, even more important than the auras.
Game 2 and 3: It REALLY, REALLY helps to "fetch" our sideboard cards. Our side is basically enchantments, creatures and artifacts. So, during many games, Vessel was really important to "draw" that Stony Silence, Rest in Peace or Seal of Primordium turns earlier than expected. This helps us a LOT to win the game.
At least for now, it's helping a lot to give much more consistency to the deck. I will keep testing.
1G to cast. Worst scenario: it gives only +2/+2 to Kor Spiritdancer because of her ability. Good scenario: +1/+1 & vigilance to Gladecover Scout. Best scenario +2/+2 & vigilance & flying to Slippery Bogle.
100% of our creatures are benefited in a way. 33,3% get the best scenario. 33,3% get the good scenario. 33,3% get the worst scenario.
First of all, I played with 3 mains, although I really think the ideal is 2 main. I just needed it to appear more frequently for the test, so I decided to play with 3 main for now.
Well, this card is really great. Once it interacts with Ethereal Armor, many times I just waited till the end of my opponent's turn to sacrifice it. In other games, in the other hand, when I just really needed a creature or a land, i just sacrificed Vessel of Nascency as soon as possible. In many matches, it gave me more efficiency than Kor Spiritdancer. Once Spiritdancer, before being destroyed by Bolt or Fatal Push, needs 2 mana to cast and 1 more mana to cast another aura just to trigger the ability that grants us a draw, Vessel of Nascency sometimes gives us much more advantage, making it possible to choose one among the four cards of the top.
While playing against The Rock, for example, my opponent preferred to target Vessel of Nascency with his Abrupt Decay than any other aura I have... because in the last game it was the Vessel that made possible for me to reveal 4 cards and put Rest in Peace (that was the 4th in order) in my hand in the end of his third turn and cast it during my fourth turn.
While playing against Liliana of the Veil, firstly the combo fetch + Dryad Arbor saved me.. but I knew that I needed one more body, because my only creature was a 7/7 Bogle and in 2 turns Liliana's ability would make me sacrifice it. I waited for the draw step for 2 turns... no creature. After the draw in the last turn, I sacrificed Vessel of Nascency and found, among the four cards, one Gladecover Scout that saved me.
Against Hardened Scales, once, It helped me to reveal and put in my hand a Seal of Primordium, that was really useful at that right moment.
So, these were just some of the many times when the card really showed it's value to me. For me, from now on, it's a must in this deck. It gives me timing, consistency, interaction with my own cards, fast access to sideboard cards, and options... oh, man, you know how hard we need options while playing Bogles. Considering the sideboard, our deck is almost 100% creatures, enchantments/auras, artifacts and lands... Vessel lets us put in our hand almost every one of these cards (Path to Exile - that is an instant - is the common exception).
This is the list I'm using right now. Really happy with it. I tried other lists, but this is the one that gets more wins against the top tiers. No, I don't play Leyline of Sanctity. I know it's a good card but it rarely appears in my first hand.
Awesome! Bogles is often a great meta deck. We tend to be strong when sideboards are turned too heavily to fight one thing. The lack of engineered explosives in the boards is really helping us, I think.
Awesome! Bogles is often a great meta deck. We tend to be strong when sideboards are turned too heavily to fight one thing. The lack of engineered explosives in the boards is really helping us, I think.
When Izzet Phoenix (aka a creature deck) is the deck to beat, bogles will certainly shine
Awesome! Bogles is often a great meta deck. We tend to be strong when sideboards are turned too heavily to fight one thing. The lack of engineered explosives in the boards is really helping us, I think.
When Izzet Phoenix (aka a creature deck) is the deck to beat, bogles will certainly shine
Izzet Phoeniz isn't really a creature deck in this regard. Normally the reason we beat creature decks is that they're completely blank to a resolved Daybreak Coronet and even without it they can't win the combat step against our huge first strikers. Izzet Phoenix has Thing in the Ice, which is pretty much a trump card against us that wins every time it gets to flip. With all their cantrips and filtering, it's not uncommon at all for them to find more Thing in the Ice than we find Path to Exile.
I played the matchup 6 times at GP Bilbao and only managed a 2-4 result. That was probably lower than we should expect, but the matchup is reasonably close. Even without Thing in the Ice they will win some matches just to us not drawing a Bogle, them having a quick start and racing us, or them drawing a powerful sideboard card like Explosives or Blood Moon that stops us dead.
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It just doesn't work in this type of deck. First you have to look at what you would give up for the card vs its benefit. You would have to get rid of more impact enchantments to fit in something that is only situation ally good. Also, it slows down your most explosive turns.
Also, it isn't that bogles doesn't care about interaction. The point is we are blanking our opponents interaction through various ways. An umbra is like countering a sweeper, Playing a cartouche or fetching a dryad arbor, or the threat of fetching a dryab arbor, forces our opponent to play their edict effect one turn later and that is only if they also have a 1 mana removal spell in hand.
If you are having issues why don't you post your list and we can all go over it together.
How's everyone feeling about the new set? I hope we get some help. Not because I think we need it but because I think after these cards come out, if you didn't get better, you got worse! I would love to see Enlightneded Tutor. People seem to think Enchantress has a good chance of getting printed. Not an ideal card but we might be able to use it somewhere.
Which Enchantress are you talking about? Argothian Enchantress? Verduran Enchantress?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Tutor is 1 mana and is instant speed so you can cast it at the end of your oponents turn. Not sure what it would replace though. He is talking about Argothian.I am actually not sure how well that would do as spirit dancer does the same thing but is also a threat.
What I really want to see is Armadillo Cloak
IMO the difference between the two is staggering. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if we got a brand new card from Horizons with a power level set in-between the two. OtA is something a lot of folks wanted to make work in the deck (and some bold souls continue to do so based on various tourney lists), but a 2cmc sorcery speed aura tutor is just awful in a deck where you're often forced to work with limited mana. Save for some sort of utility aura needed to get you out of a pinch, OtA is almost always Daybreak #5, so best case scenario is you hit all your land drops and have a suited up bogle in play with >1 auras attached on T4 w/ OtA in-hand and need Daybreak to closeout the game.
Enlightened Tutor can get you there a turn earlier under perfect conditions as it can be played on opponent's EoT. If we can't play it on our opponent's turn, a Horizon Canopy can get it into our hand once searched up. And what really separates the two IMO is that ET can go get any of our enchantments, rather than auras alone; this allows it to be played both offensively to dig up an aura or defensively to find one of our SB cards as needed. I think ET would do wonders in helping to increase our consistency and/or unlock the option for a tool-box style build and is a card that'd almost always be relevant in any given matchup.
However, despite the likelihood that ET would be a fair addition to Bogles, I ultimately believe we won't get it due to various other decks where tutoring up an artifact could lead to degeneracy. The power level of enchantments in Modern is paltry enough to where ET would be more than reasonable if it only let players find enchantments, unfortunately, I don't believe WotC would be comfortable dumping a 1cmc artifact tutor into the format. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the new Horizons cards were some sort of amalgamation between the two cards; something along the lines of:
W - instant - Tutor up an enchantment, shuffle, and place on top of you lib (IMO this would still be conservative power-level wise; I don't think directly adding it to your hand would be broken considering the power level of both enchantments and white in Modern).
@JonConnor I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment that the need for a Horizons card is needed simply to not fall behind. This is actually the predominate reason why I think we'll get something of use. WotC has previously stated their desire to help out white and bolster that part of the color pie; that along with the lack of Modern enchantments-matter strategies make me believe we have a good shot at getting something useful.
On the whole, I'm still optimistic that WotC realizes Sylvan Library would be acceptable in Modern and unleash it into the format.
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I think Enlightened Tutor would completely change the deck. I don't think it can even be compared to Armory. Any opening hand that has two lands and a tutor is: turn 2 stony or turn 2 RIP or turn 2 Cage or turn 2 spellskite.. The sideboard could be completely thinned out because any tutor in the opening hand would just be extra copies of hate cards. Not to mention the ability to play one aura on turn two and hold up tutor to fetch for coronet the following turn or spiritlink or boon or whatever you needed. I think it's not always the amount of auras. It's the quality of auras. And this helps that big time. You could even push it to the extreme of playing a 1 of Ornithopter so you had a creature to fetch up in a bind.. or a 1 of oppressive rays. Yes, those two are probably extremes, haha.. but who knows. I think the card is super powerful and probably won't be reprinted for that reason. I am definitely open to the fact that I could be totally wrong here but I just don't see how it misses.
I was talking about Argothian Enchantress. That was NOT my suggestion of a helpful reprint. I have just heard that card mentioned all over the place as potential for Modern Horizons. The draw and protection is nice but it seems really situational. I sense some frustrating games with a lone unenchantable enchantress staring back up at you from the battlefield :).
**And Joban8 - I completely agree about your thoughts on Tutor. Other decks would abuse that thing to no end. It would be on the banned list in a week.
The downsides of Enlightened Tutor would be that you're still paying a mana and a card for it, which probably isn't worth it just for the maindeck auras. This is also why Sterling Grove probably isn't worth it even with the shroud benefit. Both cards get significantly better post sideboard though. Argothian Enchantress would be interesting, hard to say if it would be worth it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That's the thing when you start to think about helpful cards. I feel like alot of potential cards would make hexproof strong but something else stronger. Any card similar to tutor would make it that much easier for another deck to find EE, chalice, spellskite, bridge... yikes.
I honestly would be content if the London mulligan rule works out and nothing got printed in MH. It's not even that it makes the deck that much better. It's just going to get rid of all those games where the deck doesn't even function. I'm totally fine with losing as long as I get to actually play.
After all, it's not easy to create a strong aura that satisfy our refined taste and is still possible to be played in bogles. If any new strong aura has one bit of CMC beyond what is strictly necessary.. it is useless. If it has no boost effect.. it's (almost) useless. If it doesn't add any keyword ability... it's useless. If it is not green or white.. it's (almost) useless. If it adds just the same as the other auras we wave, it's useless. If it's just a bit slow or limited to cast or keep on the battlefield... it's useless.
You see? It's difficult to create a card that helps bogles and, at the same time, won't destroy Modern, legacy or commander. Tutor, in my opinion, probably will not see the modern fresh air... because it would certainly overboost any affinity deck (or artifact based deck).
So, let's hope they are looking to Bogles with some wide smile in their faces and gently help us in any way. Maybe a new creature? Maybe one more 1 CMC hexproof creature?
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
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| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Serra's Sanctum would be the bee's knees, but it's a no-go so long as the reserve list exists.
Guessing what new cards we could get is pointless, but we can still look at some interesting non-RL cards that could potentially be ported over from Legacy, in addition to Sterling Grove and other mentioned previously:
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During my tests, It is being proven to be really, really useful as a good cantrip. This card accelerates our game plan in a way totally different from Open the Armory. These two cards do not occupate the same space and function inside Bogles.
Game 1: let it resting on the battlefield waiting for the right moment... meanwhile it helps to buff Ethereal Armor. Ok, the "hard cast" cost is 1GG in one only turn, but you can pay it in two different turns and activate the ability as instant in the end of opponent's turn. Vessel can bring, during moments of necessity, creatures, artifacts, and even lands.. these pieces sometimes are really important to win the game, even more important than the auras.
Game 2 and 3: It REALLY, REALLY helps to "fetch" our sideboard cards. Our side is basically enchantments, creatures and artifacts. So, during many games, Vessel was really important to "draw" that Stony Silence, Rest in Peace or Seal of Primordium turns earlier than expected. This helps us a LOT to win the game.
At least for now, it's helping a lot to give much more consistency to the deck. I will keep testing.
Last but not least... what do you think about Favor of the Overbeing?
1G to cast. Worst scenario: it gives only +2/+2 to Kor Spiritdancer because of her ability. Good scenario: +1/+1 & vigilance to Gladecover Scout. Best scenario +2/+2 & vigilance & flying to Slippery Bogle.
100% of our creatures are benefited in a way. 33,3% get the best scenario. 33,3% get the good scenario. 33,3% get the worst scenario.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
First of all, I played with 3 mains, although I really think the ideal is 2 main. I just needed it to appear more frequently for the test, so I decided to play with 3 main for now.
Well, this card is really great. Once it interacts with Ethereal Armor, many times I just waited till the end of my opponent's turn to sacrifice it. In other games, in the other hand, when I just really needed a creature or a land, i just sacrificed Vessel of Nascency as soon as possible. In many matches, it gave me more efficiency than Kor Spiritdancer. Once Spiritdancer, before being destroyed by Bolt or Fatal Push, needs 2 mana to cast and 1 more mana to cast another aura just to trigger the ability that grants us a draw, Vessel of Nascency sometimes gives us much more advantage, making it possible to choose one among the four cards of the top.
While playing against The Rock, for example, my opponent preferred to target Vessel of Nascency with his Abrupt Decay than any other aura I have... because in the last game it was the Vessel that made possible for me to reveal 4 cards and put Rest in Peace (that was the 4th in order) in my hand in the end of his third turn and cast it during my fourth turn.
While playing against Liliana of the Veil, firstly the combo fetch + Dryad Arbor saved me.. but I knew that I needed one more body, because my only creature was a 7/7 Bogle and in 2 turns Liliana's ability would make me sacrifice it. I waited for the draw step for 2 turns... no creature. After the draw in the last turn, I sacrificed Vessel of Nascency and found, among the four cards, one Gladecover Scout that saved me.
Against Hardened Scales, once, It helped me to reveal and put in my hand a Seal of Primordium, that was really useful at that right moment.
So, these were just some of the many times when the card really showed it's value to me. For me, from now on, it's a must in this deck. It gives me timing, consistency, interaction with my own cards, fast access to sideboard cards, and options... oh, man, you know how hard we need options while playing Bogles. Considering the sideboard, our deck is almost 100% creatures, enchantments/auras, artifacts and lands... Vessel lets us put in our hand almost every one of these cards (Path to Exile - that is an instant - is the common exception).
This is the list I'm using right now. Really happy with it. I tried other lists, but this is the one that gets more wins against the top tiers. No, I don't play Leyline of Sanctity. I know it's a good card but it rarely appears in my first hand.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
>Creatures (12)
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kor Spiritdancer
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
1 Gryff's Boon
1 Cartouche of Solidarity
3 Hyena Umbra
2 Spirit Mantle
>Green Enchantments (11)
4 Rancor
4 Spider Umbra
2 Vessel of Nascency
>Instants (2)
3 Path to Exile
1 Cartouche of Solidarity
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Damping Matrix
2 Damping Sphere
3 Mana Tithe
2 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Suppression Field
1 Vessel of Nascency
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Kor Spiritdancer
Spells
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Rancor
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Spider Umbra
2 Hyena Umbra
3 Spirit Mantle
2 Gryff’s Boon
1 Spirit Link
4 Path to Exile
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Deglamer
2 Unravel the Aether
Link
https://www.channelfireball.com/grand-prix-tampa-top-8-decklists/
Modern:
EDH:
When Izzet Phoenix (aka a creature deck) is the deck to beat, bogles will certainly shine
Izzet Phoeniz isn't really a creature deck in this regard. Normally the reason we beat creature decks is that they're completely blank to a resolved Daybreak Coronet and even without it they can't win the combat step against our huge first strikers. Izzet Phoenix has Thing in the Ice, which is pretty much a trump card against us that wins every time it gets to flip. With all their cantrips and filtering, it's not uncommon at all for them to find more Thing in the Ice than we find Path to Exile.
I played the matchup 6 times at GP Bilbao and only managed a 2-4 result. That was probably lower than we should expect, but the matchup is reasonably close. Even without Thing in the Ice they will win some matches just to us not drawing a Bogle, them having a quick start and racing us, or them drawing a powerful sideboard card like Explosives or Blood Moon that stops us dead.