I see a lot of discussion on Etch vs MoE. Etch helps close games against aggro and control based decks who don't specialize in mass field control like GR Tron. MoE is better in the mirror and combo. Right now, the field is more populated by aggro. I think a 1 of MoE is fine, but I prefer a full set of Etched's in this aggro based meta right now.
If MB'ing spellskite one to two is max imo. Anymore than that and you begin to slow down. I know I tried it. lol Post board that's a different story, but overall he can swing games that you would have lost such as burn and infect. Thankfully, we have more options so the ever bemoaned steel overseer can now be swapped out for other cards or even doubled down with chief of the foundry. Just some thoughts.
Stony Silence hitting turn 2 should be rare, but in my experience it is extremely common. Thankfully, I think we already have the answers to deal with it. If its decks that use spells to hose us we use thoughtseize or spell pierce/ swan song it. For decks that use both creatures and spells to hose us such as collected chord then it gets tricky as over SB'ing can also cause us to loose. :/
Just coming home from a night of modern. Was doing very well, but I lost to the top 2 guys, who were both playing RG Tron
I don't know what I could have done differently, I'd say I was playing a fairly stocklist except with two Skites in the MB and the 4 Galvanic Blast in the MB
I wanna ask, what kind of hands are you guys typically wanting against that matchup? I almost don't feel like I have time to set up too much with pyroclasm, O-Stone and Karn
Also, was looking at this primer---Is Bloodmoon actually a good idea? It turns our lands off and it may delay them just a little
I was boarding out my 3 Champions and 1 Master of Etherium for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Ancient Grudge--but is that right?
Was wondering what to take out for 2 Spellskite mainboard since my meta has Grixis, Jund and Twin, so they seem like a must. I also believe that Hangarback Walker would be pretty strong since there's few Path to Exile and bounce running around, and he plays really well with Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, and is a nice mana sink when you have no hand. Plus the tokens have evasion.
Are 3 Steel Overseer too few and do I need to bump up to 4 or are they good enough since they're a bit slow?
Ok. Got more questions for you more experienced Affinity players
These are more questions for an unknown meta
How do you guys feel about the welding jar in an unknown meta?
A lot of people are cutting menmite down to 2, he sucks, but he really does help with those opening nut hands to feed mox opal/springleaf and help the swarm strategy, along with ravager/steel overseer, right?
Frank Karsten seems to be a huge advocate for the 17th land. I mulligan aggressively finding the opening hand is too clunky or slow. Of course I mulligan if it's too much fuel and too little threat too
Is running 5 4 drops in the MB just ASKING to start slow and clunky? I run the 3 Etched Champion/1 Master of Etherium
I can see 2x Spellskite working viciously in very controlling matches, but when I need to race, he's a huge liability, I found, and I suppose main boarding him may be a huge meta call
Why does almost no list run 4x Steel Overseer, he's one of our wincons, and one of the openings cards that we decided if a hand is keepable
Spellskite is a form of hate card against certain deck and also a form of insurance for my more valuable creatures or artifact. its main aim is to redirect removal and adding some form of resilience to the deck. As long as twin is out there, i felt that spellskite is indispensable.
Welding jar is useful in activating metalcraft and also protecting your key artifact and steel overseer. with spellskite, it can nullify ancient grudge and 2 kolaghan's command. it don't stop terminate, but i find it effective enough to warrant 1 piece main board.
welding jar and spellskite are cards you can choose to cut in game 2 if irrelevant in the match up for other hate cards.
steel overseer is best in 3, 4 is a bit too many as sometimes it is too easily killed without giving any benefit. it act more as lightning rod for removal. some of my sequencing for various card at the 2 drop slot and against different match up.
i will cast spellskite over steel overseer if i suspect removal like lightning bolt.
i will cast overseer over plating or ravager if i suspect removal. i can do without overseer if i have etched champion with plating, otherwise i will cast plating.
if i have welding jar in field, i will cast steel overseer first.
spellskite< steel overseer< cranial plating< arcbound ravager.
this is how i place the priority in casting.
resilience is more important than speed in many match up. only for combo mat up will speed be more important. but even then, we might keep a mana open for spell pierce and such.
in recent meta, control and aggro is more pervalent than combo, therefore resilience is more important.
if you are running 5x 3 drops, you can consider playing 17 land. otherwise, 16 land is often enough. i suspect karsten choose 17 land over 16 to prevent mana screw and too much excessive mulligan. during some of my games, i have to mull to 4 due to no land or fragile mana base. i can see the appeal for 17 land. you can consider cutting welding jar for the 17th land if your meta have a lot of terminate.
Spellskite MB is fine, just not more than 2 till after the first round.
17 lands is too much imo. But, if you run more than 8 color cards and playing 5 cards that cost 4 I can see the need for 17 lands. I don't know why you would be playing 5 cards that cost 4 though. That is too clunky imo.
Steel Overseer is slow and almost always dies. There have been so many attempts to replace him. I honestly can say he has rarely ever won me a game. Seriously, he usually just dies. Experiment with a lot with new things to see what works best for you. I'm glad I did as I no longer use him.
No way, man. An unanswered steel overseer for more than 1 turn is almost aways a win. He's also great for putting out first before ravager and cranial playing
I saw one or two lists run 2 seers and that looked really iffy.
That being said, If he's ever reprinted it's hopefully called "lightning rod"
You need to get one off first. lol I recall a high level player who who took a big event dismissed overseer for MOE because you get a +1/+1 instantly. Now we have Cheif. We have had a lot of great releases and now we no longer have to skin this cat the same way anymore.
I tried day's undoing and it didn't impress me. If you dump your hand and cast it turn 2 or 3, then it's good. However, if you have the 3+ 2 drop hand, it gets much, much worse. I lost a post-sideboard game against jund who mulled to 4 because my hand was just a bit slow and he IoK my plating (Granted, this was against a friend, wasn't for anything and was mostly for testing purposes, but it does remind us that the card can in fact help our opponents just as much as us). I think for undoing to be good in affinity, you have to either max out on the burn, galvanic blast and shrapnel blast, and/or max out on the memnites/cut most, if not all, 3 drops, at least in the main deck. The reasoning being you HAVE to dump your hand for it do be good/be able to interact on their turn. Then there are the decks it's just actively bad against; burn, infect, non-G twin lists.
I WANT to like it, I really do, but from my testing with it in a stock list, it just doesn't do enough.
i disagree on the role of steel overseer and MoE. i think MoE can screw us badly more than steel overseer. this is so because opponent can declare blocks on your attacker and before damage kill MoE leaving you with bad trade. Steel overseer is better because after 1 activation, the effect remains even after he leave play. it will result in lesser bad combat decision . He is a lightning rod, but a good one that have a big impact is he stays around for 2-3 turn. games can be won single handedly by him whereas MoE will be blocked most of the time and dependent on your board state to determine if he is effective. i think the above reasons are good enough to choose steel overseer over MoE. one more thing, the cmc is also a problem as it takes the slot of champion.
the only reason to run MoE is you need to race or white is pervalent where stony silence is a major threat. as of now, the colour is geared towards grixis, therefore i will chose not to run MoE.
I have played the various iteration with and without steel overseer and MoE, this is my finding. I hope this will help you to understand why we play certain cards over certain cards and the underlaying reason why. i have played almost 10 GPT and countless LGS event using affinity, therefore i believe my analysis is pretty accurate of how affinity have transform/perform over the last 1 year.
the new cards, i have only tested ghirapur aether grid and it is good in the mirror so far that i have tested. hangarback and day's undoing were not tested as i don't find a need for it as it could be too slow. Day's undoing seems good on paper, but i really doubtful of it's use.
i can see hangarback walker having a place in tempered steel version as that is where it will have the most impact compared to the classic affinity stock list.
I tried day's undoing and it didn't impress me. If you dump your hand and cast it turn 2 or 3, then it's good. However, if you have the 3+ 2 drop hand, it gets much, much worse. I lost a post-sideboard game against jund who mulled to 4 because my hand was just a bit slow and he IoK my plating (Granted, this was against a friend, wasn't for anything and was mostly for testing purposes, but it does remind us that the card can in fact help our opponents just as much as us). I think for undoing to be good in affinity, you have to either max out on the burn, galvanic blast and shrapnel blast, and/or max out on the memnites/cut most, if not all, 3 drops, at least in the main deck. The reasoning being you HAVE to dump your hand for it do be good/be able to interact on their turn. Then there are the decks it's just actively bad against; burn, infect, non-G twin lists.
I WANT to like it, I really do, but from my testing with it in a stock list, it just doesn't do enough.
This mostly agrees with my findings. Minimal three-drops (I have three) and maximum Galvanic Blasts - I have not added Shrapnel Blasts yet but it has crossed my mind.
One should usually side-out Day's when not on the play.
The part I'm not necessarily in agreement with is I DO like it.
I have a question pertaining to the Delver Match-up (Both Grixis and U/R, although it seems to mostly be Grixis these days?)
If running both Galvanic Blast and Thoughtcast main deck, which of those two do you keep in for the post-board games, and which do you side out first priority wise? I run a fair number of each main deck (at least three copies of each).
As you can see, all of those options are at least viable in the match-up, but as you guys know, the art of this deck is the proper ratio of not diluting our deck's foundation as well as adding in silver bullets....
Blood Moon/Choke are more for the Twin/Control/Amulet/Scapeshift/Tron match-ups, but could definitely come in for a game or two against Delver.... but are they more worth it than Aether Grid (which I like as a SB card but haven't tested against Delver). Does Spell Pierce slow us down too much? Same with Thoughtseize, and are they more worth it than Galvanic Blast and/or Thoughtseize? Or Whipflare? Is Relic worth it and any better than any of those, same with Spellskite?
There are so many viable options in this match-up... Which ones are worth it, and in what priority?
On a side note, I assume most of you prefer Etched Champion over Master of Etherium in this match-up? I could side out some Masters for some of those options as well... I run both Main Deck.
A lot depends on if on the play or draw as well, so please include that if you can help...
i will board out thoughtcast as they will most probably counter it and we waste 1 mana or even a turn casting it. relic of progenitus, spellskite and whipflare plus some spell pierce is what i would board in. they aim to play a tempo game with us,therefore spell pierce will be better imo over thoughtseize. steel overseer will be board out as it is too slow against them. i choose not to run choke or blood moon over them because at 3 cmc, they will often counter us and also it is not particularly useful after they fetch for basic. if on the play, you could consider boarding in, but only if you play it on turn 2. the impact of blood moon is not as great as in the past. also, they will board in kolaghan's command, pyroclasm or anger of the god against us. blood moon will give them the red to cast those spells. letting them fetch and shock might be better.
You can try. I personally felt that it is not cost efficient. Etched champion block it whole day.it also don't really give them what they want.the game would be faster if we ignore it. If it does become a threat, you are losing anyway, therefore not much need.
You can try. I personally felt that it is not cost efficient. Etched champion block it whole day.it also don't really give them what they want.the game would be faster if we ignore it. If it does become a threat, you are losing anyway, therefore not much need.
have you tested it? against delver?
i dont really see how it is any better or worse against Delver than would be against Junk or something...
it is bomb against bw tokens, souls sister, infect, mirror and abzan lingering souls. I have played against grixis delver, I find that I don't need it to win. in delver match-up, I am more concern about their removal and counterspells than their creatures. whipflare and galvanic blast does their job well enough to get rid of those flying cockroaches and young pyromancer. at 3 cmc, etched champion is the best drop. too much of 3cmc will clot up your hand.
it is bomb against bw tokens, souls sister, infect, mirror and abzan lingering souls. I have played against grixis delver, I find that I don't need it to win. in delver match-up, I am more concern about their removal and counterspells than their creatures. whipflare and galvanic blast does their job well enough to get rid of those flying cockroaches and young pyromancer. at 3 cmc, etched champion is the best drop. too much of 3cmc will clot up your hand.
what if you run master of etherium though (i run both champ and master main deck), which is also a 3 drop, would you side those out for ghirapur aether grid? on the draw? vs. Delver
If grixis version, I might board in aether grid instead of MoE. Reason being they run terminate and they can't get rid of enchantment. If UR delver, I might just keep the MoE.
Hand One: Enough threats to deploy fastly or slowly plus the ability to cast the Galv Blast is key to removing quick strats(Twin, Zoo, Jund)
Hand Five: Hand is dumped by T2 and its aggressive!
Mull: Hand Two, Three, Four
Hand Two isnt aggressive enough (IF) they have any removal for overseer and thus you pitch it. You could try that seven and see if the draw is value, otherwise you do not have any threats. Hand Three is too heavy on drops, not enough lands/mana. Same with Hand Four
Keep: Hand One, Hand Four/Five(they are the same?)
Hand One: Slow, decent threats, just hope we scry well or just hope they do not have all the removal.
Hand Four/Five: T2 etched champion with protection is pretty good. Also dodges spell snare
Mull: Hand Two, Three
Hand Two hinges too much on the scry to be relevant to keep. Hand Three is light on decent threats. No one is going to be afraid of this plan because it doesn't play out fast enough. Sure the scry can be helpful in this situation, but if it is land/springleaf/mox opal AFTER the scry? Hope you can race.
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If MB'ing spellskite one to two is max imo. Anymore than that and you begin to slow down. I know I tried it. lol Post board that's a different story, but overall he can swing games that you would have lost such as burn and infect. Thankfully, we have more options so the ever bemoaned steel overseer can now be swapped out for other cards or even doubled down with chief of the foundry. Just some thoughts.
Stony Silence hitting turn 2 should be rare, but in my experience it is extremely common. Thankfully, I think we already have the answers to deal with it. If its decks that use spells to hose us we use thoughtseize or spell pierce/ swan song it. For decks that use both creatures and spells to hose us such as collected chord then it gets tricky as over SB'ing can also cause us to loose. :/
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I don't know what I could have done differently, I'd say I was playing a fairly stocklist except with two Skites in the MB and the 4 Galvanic Blast in the MB
I wanna ask, what kind of hands are you guys typically wanting against that matchup? I almost don't feel like I have time to set up too much with pyroclasm, O-Stone and Karn
Also, was looking at this primer---Is Bloodmoon actually a good idea? It turns our lands off and it may delay them just a little
I was boarding out my 3 Champions and 1 Master of Etherium for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Ancient Grudge--but is that right?
4 Ornithopter
2 Memnite
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Steel Overseer
3 Etched Champion
4 Galvanic Blast
Sorcery (4)
4 Day's Undoing
Artifact (12)
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Glimmervoid
1 Island
Trying straight out swapping Thoughtcast for Day's Undoing
Was wondering what to take out for 2 Spellskite mainboard since my meta has Grixis, Jund and Twin, so they seem like a must. I also believe that Hangarback Walker would be pretty strong since there's few Path to Exile and bounce running around, and he plays really well with Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, and is a nice mana sink when you have no hand. Plus the tokens have evasion.
Are 3 Steel Overseer too few and do I need to bump up to 4 or are they good enough since they're a bit slow?
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These are more questions for an unknown meta
How do you guys feel about the welding jar in an unknown meta?
A lot of people are cutting menmite down to 2, he sucks, but he really does help with those opening nut hands to feed mox opal/springleaf and help the swarm strategy, along with ravager/steel overseer, right?
Frank Karsten seems to be a huge advocate for the 17th land. I mulligan aggressively finding the opening hand is too clunky or slow. Of course I mulligan if it's too much fuel and too little threat too
Is running 5 4 drops in the MB just ASKING to start slow and clunky? I run the 3 Etched Champion/1 Master of Etherium
I can see 2x Spellskite working viciously in very controlling matches, but when I need to race, he's a huge liability, I found, and I suppose main boarding him may be a huge meta call
Why does almost no list run 4x Steel Overseer, he's one of our wincons, and one of the openings cards that we decided if a hand is keepable
Welding jar is useful in activating metalcraft and also protecting your key artifact and steel overseer. with spellskite, it can nullify ancient grudge and 2 kolaghan's command. it don't stop terminate, but i find it effective enough to warrant 1 piece main board.
welding jar and spellskite are cards you can choose to cut in game 2 if irrelevant in the match up for other hate cards.
steel overseer is best in 3, 4 is a bit too many as sometimes it is too easily killed without giving any benefit. it act more as lightning rod for removal. some of my sequencing for various card at the 2 drop slot and against different match up.
i will cast spellskite over steel overseer if i suspect removal like lightning bolt.
i will cast overseer over plating or ravager if i suspect removal. i can do without overseer if i have etched champion with plating, otherwise i will cast plating.
if i have welding jar in field, i will cast steel overseer first.
spellskite< steel overseer< cranial plating< arcbound ravager.
this is how i place the priority in casting.
resilience is more important than speed in many match up. only for combo mat up will speed be more important. but even then, we might keep a mana open for spell pierce and such.
in recent meta, control and aggro is more pervalent than combo, therefore resilience is more important.
if you are running 5x 3 drops, you can consider playing 17 land. otherwise, 16 land is often enough. i suspect karsten choose 17 land over 16 to prevent mana screw and too much excessive mulligan. during some of my games, i have to mull to 4 due to no land or fragile mana base. i can see the appeal for 17 land. you can consider cutting welding jar for the 17th land if your meta have a lot of terminate.
17 lands is too much imo. But, if you run more than 8 color cards and playing 5 cards that cost 4 I can see the need for 17 lands. I don't know why you would be playing 5 cards that cost 4 though. That is too clunky imo.
Steel Overseer is slow and almost always dies. There have been so many attempts to replace him. I honestly can say he has rarely ever won me a game. Seriously, he usually just dies. Experiment with a lot with new things to see what works best for you. I'm glad I did as I no longer use him.
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I saw one or two lists run 2 seers and that looked really iffy.
That being said, If he's ever reprinted it's hopefully called "lightning rod"
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I WANT to like it, I really do, but from my testing with it in a stock list, it just doesn't do enough.
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the only reason to run MoE is you need to race or white is pervalent where stony silence is a major threat. as of now, the colour is geared towards grixis, therefore i will chose not to run MoE.
I have played the various iteration with and without steel overseer and MoE, this is my finding. I hope this will help you to understand why we play certain cards over certain cards and the underlaying reason why. i have played almost 10 GPT and countless LGS event using affinity, therefore i believe my analysis is pretty accurate of how affinity have transform/perform over the last 1 year.
the new cards, i have only tested ghirapur aether grid and it is good in the mirror so far that i have tested. hangarback and day's undoing were not tested as i don't find a need for it as it could be too slow. Day's undoing seems good on paper, but i really doubtful of it's use.
i can see hangarback walker having a place in tempered steel version as that is where it will have the most impact compared to the classic affinity stock list.
This mostly agrees with my findings. Minimal three-drops (I have three) and maximum Galvanic Blasts - I have not added Shrapnel Blasts yet but it has crossed my mind.
One should usually side-out Day's when not on the play.
The part I'm not necessarily in agreement with is I DO like it.
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If running both Galvanic Blast and Thoughtcast main deck, which of those two do you keep in for the post-board games, and which do you side out first priority wise? I run a fair number of each main deck (at least three copies of each).
My sideboard does contain whipflare, ghirapur aether grid, thoughtseize, spell pierce, blood moon, choke, relic of progenitus and spellskite....
As you can see, all of those options are at least viable in the match-up, but as you guys know, the art of this deck is the proper ratio of not diluting our deck's foundation as well as adding in silver bullets....
Blood Moon/Choke are more for the Twin/Control/Amulet/Scapeshift/Tron match-ups, but could definitely come in for a game or two against Delver.... but are they more worth it than Aether Grid (which I like as a SB card but haven't tested against Delver). Does Spell Pierce slow us down too much? Same with Thoughtseize, and are they more worth it than Galvanic Blast and/or Thoughtseize? Or Whipflare? Is Relic worth it and any better than any of those, same with Spellskite?
There are so many viable options in this match-up... Which ones are worth it, and in what priority?
On a side note, I assume most of you prefer Etched Champion over Master of Etherium in this match-up? I could side out some Masters for some of those options as well... I run both Main Deck.
A lot depends on if on the play or draw as well, so please include that if you can help...
Thanks a lot for any help in advance....
have you tested it? against delver?
i dont really see how it is any better or worse against Delver than would be against Junk or something...
who has tested it?
how narrow is it and what is it bomb against?
what if you run master of etherium though (i run both champ and master main deck), which is also a 3 drop, would you side those out for ghirapur aether grid? on the draw? vs. Delver
Hand One: Enough threats to deploy fastly or slowly plus the ability to cast the Galv Blast is key to removing quick strats(Twin, Zoo, Jund)
Hand Five: Hand is dumped by T2 and its aggressive!
Mull: Hand Two, Three, Four
Hand Two isnt aggressive enough (IF) they have any removal for overseer and thus you pitch it. You could try that seven and see if the draw is value, otherwise you do not have any threats. Hand Three is too heavy on drops, not enough lands/mana. Same with Hand Four
Keep: Hand One, Hand Four/Five(they are the same?)
Hand One: Slow, decent threats, just hope we scry well or just hope they do not have all the removal.
Hand Four/Five: T2 etched champion with protection is pretty good. Also dodges spell snare
Mull: Hand Two, Three
Hand Two hinges too much on the scry to be relevant to keep. Hand Three is light on decent threats. No one is going to be afraid of this plan because it doesn't play out fast enough. Sure the scry can be helpful in this situation, but if it is land/springleaf/mox opal AFTER the scry? Hope you can race.