Thanks, but I was asking more about the most popular decks, so that players can see which matchups are good and which are bad etc. Some people that post here have a lot of experience against certain decks, and I need that when I write parts of the primer.
Also, I think that 5 artifact hate cards in your sideboard is a bit much, especially since you haven't even played against affinity yet. What does your local meta look like? I would also still like to see your list, because it's hard to make comments about your deck when I don't know what it looks like or what your meta is.
I've only been to one FNM and there was 2 eldrazi Tron, and two Infect decks, as well as a couple of other janky ones. But I play on Untap.in a lot, and I see a lot of Eldrazi and Artifact based decks, as well as enchantment control and burn.
for those experimenting with black spach
i would say that Winding Constrictor is the way to go
Yeah, that's the direction my BG Stompy has taken. Along with it, all creatures that gain +1/+1 counters (which were already awesome with Avatar of the Resolute anyway), so stuff like Greenwheel Liberator and Lotleth Troll are in there over counterless creatures from typical Stompy (Leatherbacks, Militants) . I'm still not going the full Hardened Scales version though. Still fundamentally an efficient-creature swarm, just with some extra +1/+1 counters synergy stacked on top of the one we were already running (Avatar).
The dream: opponent gets run over game 1 and sides in the boardwipes at the same time that I side in Inspiring Call.
What are people's thoughts on playing Bloodbraid Elf? We can add in card like Lightning Bolt and Atarka's Command, without ruining the feel of a Stompy deck.
Is this making us too much of a Zoo deck? If anything, we're upping our curve, but keeping the explosiveness,
For devotion stompy no, your quite right. For a red green variant atarka's command and lightning bolt with BBE would be awesome with leatherback or some other chunky three drop. It would be the 2cc and the 1cc spots that would have to be decided. That and the amount of BBE to CC ratio the deck could afford. I personally wonder if hellspark elemental and strangle root can be played together to justify both together.
I don't think that BBE is a good value for mono G deck, for four mana I'd rather cast a CoCo at instant speed.
I admit that either BBE and CoCo have the same risk because you can always run into 2 E1 or 2 Dryads, which in late game are awful, but CoCo is at least an instant.
I don't think that BBE is a good value for mono G deck, for four mana I'd rather cast a CoCo at instant speed.
I admit that either BBE and CoCo have the same risk because you can always run into 2 E1 or 2 Dryads, which in late game are awful, but CoCo is at least an instant.
My thinking exactly. You know what's better than 4 mana for 9 hasty power requiring a 2-color manabase? 4 mana for 12 hasty power in monocolor.
If we're playing 4 cost spells (something I'm still hesitant on), I still think CoCo beats BBE.
We talked about it for a short while on page 7, starting at post #194.
It has been tested for a little bit, and 1 or 2 might be good against specific matchups like Humans and Eldrazi.
Not really, the reasoning is that if you have enough creatures to make it cheap, then you're winning anyways, and when you don't have that many creatures, then you cannot play it. The reason it is good against Humans and Eldrazi is that it's something that can win the game when both players have a lot of creatures on the battlefield. I think 1 should be played maximum, and it should be in the sideboard unless you have a meta heavy on these decks.
Two tuskers/avatars and an Aspect/vines is enough to play ghalta for 2, and how often do we have more than 6 power with a pump in hand by turn 3? I almost always do.
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
Vines on turn 3 won't get us there though. Vines of Vastwood takes GG to grant the power bonus, and we'd still need GG for the part of Ghalta's cost that can't be reduced.
We wouldn't have two GG creatures on board and still have our lands untapped on turn 3 anyway. If we're casting this on T3, we're doing it off one 2-drop and a one-drop (or three one-drops).
In fact I think our only way is T1 E1, T2 two revolted Narnams. Then we head into T3 with 7 power on board, G for Aspect makes 10, with GG left over.
Oh, there are some 4-one-drop ways without Aspect, too (if the first thing you cast on T3 is a creature that evolves some E1s up to 3/3. E1; Fetchland E1 Narnam; Fetchland Narnam Ghalta)
My thinking exactly. You know what's better than 4 mana for 9 hasty power requiring a 2-color manabase? 4 mana for 12 hasty power in monocolor.
If we're playing 4 cost spells (something I'm still hesitant on), I still think CoCo beats BBE.
But BBE isn't just always getting creature if your tuning a deck. Its also getting pump, enchantment and likely damage spells for free. CoCo is great but it only gets creatures. BBE is something a bit different and to assume your not going to redesign a deck when you splash red in and the accompanying removal and options it opens seems narrow minded. Does it need to totally replace the current stompy? Probably not, but this isn't just the mono green stompy thread and you don't poo poo on the folks that splash white or black. Why not try a build with BBE first and see what variables float up first before you condemn a 4cc card. Better to try and test first than just say I don't like 4cc cards and walk away.
BBE can be tested and possibly added in some versions of Stompy... but a lot of things need to be changed. For example... some Ponza lists use BBE, they only have 21 land but have 8 manadorks. Jund lists that use BBE have 24 and even 25 land. We mostly use 21-22 land, and we have no mana dorks.. which is why 4cc cards would be hard to use. I remember a version of Stompy that a user named Stompbee used in the old Stompy thread, it uses hierarchs to power out Collected Company quickly.. maybe try something like that, but use BBE instead of Company.
Well wouldn't base 23 lands be enough for a 4 pack of BBE. It seems it hits the middle ground as long as your not trying to put CoCo alongside. The dorks idea might get viable in a 4 pack depending on what we surround it with or even applying a kird ape/nactal instead of a dryad as a 1 drop so its more relvant than a E1 if we happen to cascade into it? Maybe birds instead of mystics or if we do use Hierarch just using the 4 set of Hierarch. Many many options to figure out.
I know I was the one that suggested BBE, but I've come to the conclusion that it's probably not worth it. I'm not going to try it, I'm not going to buy it, but I think it has some sort of potential. If you want to try it, go ahead.
You might have to cut down on one-drops to improve the hits from BBE. This also means that Aspect and Vines probably have to be cut because there is less devotion. That's okay though, Bolt and Atarka's Command can fill those spots.
Two tuskers/avatars and an Aspect/vines is enough to play ghalta for 2, and how often do we have more than 6 power with a pump in hand by turn 3? I almost always do.
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
You yourself said your creatures get removed a lot. You're not the only one though. Most people playing Stompy face a lot of removal. But this means that when faced with removal, which will almost always happen, you won't be able to cast Ghalta. Half the time it's just a dead card in your hand, and what you're imagining is the absolute best-case scenario. Imagine the worst case scenario.
Think about it like this:
-You have a good hand that will get Ghalta out on turn 4. This is pretty reasonable since you have Aspect in hand with a bunch of on-curve creatures. You're assuming none of them are removed in the early stages of the game. Already, you're being quite optimistic.
-You opponent plays Thoughtseize. They're not even going to take Ghalta. They will take Aspect or something that will stop you from casting it. They know it's in your hand and they will use just enough removal from preventing you from ever playing it.
-The game plays on. At some point, through discard and removal, Ghalta is the only creature left in your hand. Maybe you drew another pump spell. Any creature you play will be removed because your opponent has been given plenty of time to draw more removal while you were doing nothing.
-Wouldn't you wish that you had another creature in this scenario?
Yes, not every deck you play against will be Jund. But I guarantee that every deck out there will have many ways of stopping you from playing that card. But by all means, play a copy in your sideboard. Some decks don't play removal. You might want to take advantage of that. But don't play Ghalta in the main. Please.
Here's my current revision.
1 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
1 Narnam Renegade
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Leatherback Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
3 Rancor
Land
21 Forest
Instant
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Dismember
1 Beast Within
2 Gut Shot
1 Manglehorn
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Deglamer
1 Natural State
2 Pithing Needle
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Great Sable Stag
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Life Goes On
2 Heroic Intervention
I've only been to one FNM and there was 2 eldrazi Tron, and two Infect decks, as well as a couple of other janky ones. But I play on Untap.in a lot, and I see a lot of Eldrazi and Artifact based decks, as well as enchantment control and burn.
Yeah, that's the direction my BG Stompy has taken. Along with it, all creatures that gain +1/+1 counters (which were already awesome with Avatar of the Resolute anyway), so stuff like Greenwheel Liberator and Lotleth Troll are in there over counterless creatures from typical Stompy (Leatherbacks, Militants) . I'm still not going the full Hardened Scales version though. Still fundamentally an efficient-creature swarm, just with some extra +1/+1 counters synergy stacked on top of the one we were already running (Avatar).
The dream: opponent gets run over game 1 and sides in the boardwipes at the same time that I side in Inspiring Call.
Is this making us too much of a Zoo deck? If anything, we're upping our curve, but keeping the explosiveness,
I admit that either BBE and CoCo have the same risk because you can always run into 2 E1 or 2 Dryads, which in late game are awful, but CoCo is at least an instant.
G Mono Green Stompy G
UR UR Delver Prowess UR
URBGrixis DelverURB
RBWMardu PyromancerRBW
My thinking exactly. You know what's better than 4 mana for 9 hasty power requiring a 2-color manabase? 4 mana for 12 hasty power in monocolor.
If we're playing 4 cost spells (something I'm still hesitant on), I still think CoCo beats BBE.
We talked about it for a short while on page 7, starting at post #194.
It has been tested for a little bit, and 1 or 2 might be good against specific matchups like Humans and Eldrazi.
I hadn't even thought about that...might be fun to run 2 Ghalta in place of Rhonas in a 4x Aspect devotion build (tuskers/more baloths in)
While Rhonas doesn't rely on creature power to be played, Ghalta doesn't rely on creature power/mana in order to swing every turn, and as a 12/12-trample you're almost guarenteed to have some unblockable damage or at least force a double/triple block to stop it. Which definitely could make him worth testing some more. I'll be doing it all night tonight and will let you know what i think.
He is weak to destroy/exile effects...and I wonder whether he's technically a target for Fatal push or not? Either way I think we can agree he's definitely the more explosive play, though not the most resilient one.
Vines on turn 3 won't get us there though. Vines of Vastwood takes GG to grant the power bonus, and we'd still need GG for the part of Ghalta's cost that can't be reduced.
We wouldn't have two GG creatures on board and still have our lands untapped on turn 3 anyway. If we're casting this on T3, we're doing it off one 2-drop and a one-drop (or three one-drops).
In fact I think our only way is T1 E1, T2 two revolted Narnams. Then we head into T3 with 7 power on board, G for Aspect makes 10, with GG left over.
Oh, there are some 4-one-drop ways without Aspect, too (if the first thing you cast on T3 is a creature that evolves some E1s up to 3/3. E1; Fetchland E1 Narnam; Fetchland Narnam Ghalta)
But BBE isn't just always getting creature if your tuning a deck. Its also getting pump, enchantment and likely damage spells for free. CoCo is great but it only gets creatures. BBE is something a bit different and to assume your not going to redesign a deck when you splash red in and the accompanying removal and options it opens seems narrow minded. Does it need to totally replace the current stompy? Probably not, but this isn't just the mono green stompy thread and you don't poo poo on the folks that splash white or black. Why not try a build with BBE first and see what variables float up first before you condemn a 4cc card. Better to try and test first than just say I don't like 4cc cards and walk away.
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You might have to cut down on one-drops to improve the hits from BBE. This also means that Aspect and Vines probably have to be cut because there is less devotion. That's okay though, Bolt and Atarka's Command can fill those spots.
You yourself said your creatures get removed a lot. You're not the only one though. Most people playing Stompy face a lot of removal. But this means that when faced with removal, which will almost always happen, you won't be able to cast Ghalta. Half the time it's just a dead card in your hand, and what you're imagining is the absolute best-case scenario. Imagine the worst case scenario.
Think about it like this:
-You have a good hand that will get Ghalta out on turn 4. This is pretty reasonable since you have Aspect in hand with a bunch of on-curve creatures. You're assuming none of them are removed in the early stages of the game. Already, you're being quite optimistic.
-You opponent plays Thoughtseize. They're not even going to take Ghalta. They will take Aspect or something that will stop you from casting it. They know it's in your hand and they will use just enough removal from preventing you from ever playing it.
-The game plays on. At some point, through discard and removal, Ghalta is the only creature left in your hand. Maybe you drew another pump spell. Any creature you play will be removed because your opponent has been given plenty of time to draw more removal while you were doing nothing.
-Wouldn't you wish that you had another creature in this scenario?
Yes, not every deck you play against will be Jund. But I guarantee that every deck out there will have many ways of stopping you from playing that card. But by all means, play a copy in your sideboard. Some decks don't play removal. You might want to take advantage of that. But don't play Ghalta in the main. Please.