Round 1 (1-0) Zoo
honestly I should have lost he miss played game 3 pretty badly and flat out punted, Game 1 was close but he got me game 2 I rolled with a great curve
Round 2 (2-0) Infect
Not much to say here I won both games easily, game 2 Zealous on double elf was sweet
Round 3 (2-1) BW Tokens
G1 he drew more spectrals than I did\
G2 I curved out great, he didn't
G3 I drew awful he got Intagible and Zealous and I didn't
Round 4 (3-1) Burn
Stole game 1
Game 2 Forge Tender, Double firewalker nough said
Have your wraths been a useful sb inclusion? Im sure it's meta dependant but Ive put 2 in for my lgs modern tomorrow, I found myself wanting a couple after my matches last week...
I've been playing tokens for the last 18mo as my main deck and the current meta is the most hostile I've ever seen it towards this deck.
Every time I join a league it seems like a get 2x tron matches that I swear I'm about 25% to win, they basically have to draw bad even an average hand will get there it seems like vs tokens.
The long and short of it in regards to b/w tokens right now is that you're a big dog to burn, tron and bloom... That's half of the top tier, not a fun place to be.
The deck's strength is vs junk/jund, any fair deck and it's more or less a 50/50 vs all the twin decks maybe even a favorite.
If bloom gets hit with a ban, we can probably get the burn match to 50/50 with a good sideboard and some main deck TR. Then it's just tron that we're dead to, that is sort of where things where 6 months ago when I thought this was a strong deck to run out in wide open events and MTGO leagues.
Also, looking at mtgoldfish and seeing a Gaddok teeg buyout and eye of Ugin going up up up, I'm of the opinion that you'll see a ton of tron at the Modern PT and subsequently afterwards on MTGO. Seems like people are gearing up to play tron or board teeg against it.
I agree the meta is hostile, but I think it's mostly Tron being a problem. Burn, Twin, and Bloom are not huge scourges. Burn and Twin we should have a solid win % against. Bloom... a couple path to Exiles with a Thoughtseize and we can win, no removal, no discard, we just lose. But sure, more 50/50, maybe worse. But nowhere near Tron.
Only time will tell where we will go next. I stated this on the old primer, and I'll state it again: We need to get a Cockatrice test group together, not only to figure out certain cards playability, but also to try new things. I've heard talk of that an alleged Raise the Alarm shell exists, but I am the only person running it, and I cam say that I usually side them out game 2.
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Tokens should have a pretty good match up against Eldrazi. They don't go as big as fast as Tron, nor do they pack main deck sweepers like O Stone or Ugin. Tokens doesn't really care about the yard except for Souls, and if they gets processed I think you're just fine. The Eldrazi decks have a hard time with decks that go wide like tokens. You can chump Sower / Herder for days, and Ulamog just needs a timely path / other removal spell. They don't have any flyers either, so Spirits and Faeries will take over easily.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I've only played against eldrazi processors once but he was running surgical extraction which hurts. Losing all your lingering souls or spectrals is tough.
I think the Tron portion should mention the fact that an active Ugin is unbeatable. Karn, Ulamog, etc can be dealt with (Path, beatdown, etc.) Ugin cannot! Most lists are running 2-3 main now and that would be my first target with Needle.
So I guess I'm late to this reply but while Ugin can't be beat, so many other cards beat Pithing needle in Tron that we almost need to be naming something else (Karn/Stone) with our first Needle before we can name Ugin.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I've played a couple games where she's sweet and a couple games where she stinks. I'm not convinced that she's bad, but I haven' been able to put in much testing. If you're interested in trying her out against a few decks, let me know and we play some games via cockatrice.
Oh thank god this got updated. The old one had so many mistakes. I disagree about tirel being the best walker. Sorin, SV is, with knight errant being second. Want my help in improving this? I have my own primer here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-token-primer/#c2459297
On this point I 100% agree. Though I think New Gideon is close to the power level of 4 CMC Elspeth. But 5 CMC Elspeth is not good in my opinion. Have tested with her extensively the fact that her token gen is a minus ability weakens her no end since casting her into an open board and making tokens leaves her ripe for bolting. I'm also ignoring Liliana here. (IE I guess my main point is that after SSV if you want a token making walker, the token making ability better not be a minus.)
Also, anyone encountered the WB or B Edrazi decks that look similar to tokens? I haven't played against one, but they look an awful lot like they're very similar to our deck but with bigger butts. Wondering what the matchup is like.
I started looking into that deck, because it seems sweet and a lot of the expensive cards we share with them. From what I'm reading on the thread is the something like Leyline of sanctity really hurts them. It has game against some other decks in the field as well, but I've never been a huge fan of it's downsides....
As far as Oath of Gideon goes, I think it looks good. Honestly, I love me a more controlling build of Tokens and this would fit well. It curves well into our strongest walkers, Sorin, and Gideon and leaves behind 2 tokens to protect. In the case of Sorin, they're attacking right away. For 2W get as many tokens as Lingering souls, and leaves behind a (different) upside. Our 2 drops will curve nicely into this, either Bitter Blossom, or an anthem. I agree with the user above that an Oath build would be very strong.
Elspeth Tirel, Ajani Goldmane, and Ajani Steadfast would all be walkers I'll be looking into. Alongside the current three.
I've played a couple games where she's sweet and a couple games where she stinks. I'm not convinced that she's bad, but I haven' been able to put in much testing. If you're interested in trying her out against a few decks, let me know and we play some games via cockatrice.
Hmm , actually I still can not decide to make a BW Tokens or Bx Eldrazi, have some cards to BW Tokens but Bx Eldrazi seems deck with great potential.
About Liliana of Veil any suggestion for an alternative card?
I've played a couple games where she's sweet and a couple games where she stinks. I'm not convinced that she's bad, but I haven' been able to put in much testing. If you're interested in trying her out against a few decks, let me know and we play some games via cockatrice.
Hmm , actually I still can not decide to make a BW Tokens or Bx Eldrazi, have some cards to BW Tokens but Bx Eldrazi seems deck with great potential.
About Liliana of Veil any suggestion for an alternative card?
You don't really NEED Liliana. It's a good card, but recently I started playing without any in my 75. The reason is that my meta has almost no control decks. She's great against Splinter Twin, but I just prefer to run more removal instead, which can also be useful against other aggro decks.
Other than hexproof auras, I think Duress is an OK substitute for Liliana in most matchups where you want her.
I think the Tron portion should mention the fact that an active Ugin is unbeatable. Karn, Ulamog, etc can be dealt with (Path, beatdown, etc.) Ugin cannot! Most lists are running 2-3 main now and that would be my first target with Needle.
So I guess I'm late to this reply but while Ugin can't be beat, so many other cards beat Pithing needle in Tron that we almost need to be naming something else (Karn/Stone) with our first Needle before we can name Ugin.
Good point, I had actually forgotten about Stone cause I haven't had Tron drop it on me yet. Only played a couple games vs it though. Usually Ugin was what ended it. TnN actually might be more popular in my area from what I've seen (or I just always see those people), which is odd given the high level of serious competitive players here. TnN is also a much more favorable matchup.
Just put the wraths in to try them, while I did side them in round 1 and 3, never drew them, but will continue for a while to see how often they do work when I do get them.
The issue with Cliffhaven Vampire is that we can't guarantee we are gaining life every game. A pseudo anthem that only works in the right scenario seems sketchy to me. This card just looks like it's gonna be dead in our hand a lot, and when it works, it's not amazing. There are better four drops in our deck, even with the exact same mana cost ([card]Sorin, Solemn Visitor[/card).
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i am available to playtest on xmage , or that cockatrice thing. although i never had cockatrice, so i may need some begginer help
Hello @falchion72...
Abzan company is a thing in my meta. i would like to now best strategies to play around it and SB tech too maybe you could share it here or pm me, either way is fine. Seems like i struggle in that MU and wanted to improve... Do you guys feel the same? feel like that MU s not that good for us but i may be wrong...
Glad to help, and I'll post here for anyone to add. I don't think I've played the matchup. I've met a BW Soul Sisters while playing CoCo, but never a CoCo while playing tokens. CoCo was my main for a while through fall. I played tokens at GP Omaha then the pod and delve ban hit. When CoCo looked to replace pod I liked it. But we can't figure out how to make it Tier 1 like pod was, so I've played more burn and Grixis Twin recently.
Anyway, we have approx 7 discard. Vs any deck the key is figuring what to yank. I've always hated playing vs Kitchen Finks as tokens. The life gain, chump blocker vs warriors and combo pieces I hate. But I think Finks may be a trap to discard. When CoCo players play the all in combo versus grinder version (less combo + more toolbox and baby Lily-evolutionary leap) then they have 2 Melira, 1-2 Anafenza, 4-5 persisters (half are against redcap, half all over him as a one of + 4 finks) and usually only 3 sac outlets (minimum 2 Viscera Seer for infinite scry, then either a third Seer or Cartel Aristocrat/Varolz). A one of each of Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder is the new addition ... or return.
So what to target with our discard and removal? Don't worry about their removal they have at most 2 abrupt decay plus 2 path, possibly a Fiend Hunter. Only 2 removal game one. Game 2/3 they will pull out combo pieces against us for more removal and disenchants (if they even have more disenchant than the one of Qasali Pridemage in the 75).
What do we do?
They usually can't deal with planeswalkers. Some have 2 Thoughtseize SB but that's about it. Use you walkers, they'll have to attack them.
Weak to flyers. Birds won't hold up long against all our anthemed flyers.
Kill their combo. Exile their sac outlets first. There are only three. Don't discard them, as they have eternal witness.
Discard their chord of callings and eternal witnesses, because those will find the combo pieces or bring them back when you least want them. Don't worry about CoCo as much, which is the trap. Occasionally CoCo may find all the combo pieces they need, but they aren't a 4/6 two-card combo deck like twin, rather 3-4/4-5/3. They need three pieces to twin's two, and those three sac outlet 1/1s we ignore as weak are the weak spot. CoCo will often change the board, but will also often whiff (no creatures in the seven, or some more than 4 cmc go to the bottom ... I often just want to scoop with a CoCo whiff). I'd ignore it with discard over other priorities. They are a toolbox deck with lots of one offs (scooze, qasali, fiend hunter ... but watch out for their one Orzhov Pontiff somewhere in the 75) but need chord and eternal witness, or luck with CoCo, to get them at the right time. Not like pod, and especially if their Viscera Seers are exiled.
Next priorities. Ghost Quarter Gavony Township (counters on creatures). They have 2-3 which will be a problem over time. Get rid of Anafenza (bolster). Time zealous persecution right ... They don't have big creatures.
If you kill their combo off, tokens can outlast and fly over them for sure. We should usually be wider than them as well most of the game. Don't worry about your life total, just attack with vigilance fliers. I think it should be a good matchup for tokens.
So this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but here goes:
Every new spoiled card in a set does not have a home in BW tokens. Just because it is white or black doesn't mean it is an auto-include. It generates tokens? Ok. We can look at it and play with it, but don't get your hopes up. Those of you who remember back to the Khans block and tokens, there were cards from there that people swore would play well with tokens and even put up results (aside from Sorin). Guess what? We don't see any of those. Past performance is not an indicator of future success, I agree. However, what I see a lot here is hope that some of these spoiled cards will be amazing. They will be, maybe, if you pair of 4 oath of gideon with a whole bunch of walkers. We lack the card draw and deck manipulation to really take advantage of the oath. There really isn't a whole lot to discuss on that point.
Having said this, we should play around with new stuff and throw it around. But, keep in mind: what match-ups do we have that are bad that this card will help improve? As a side note to that, if a lot of folks don't agree with you on a matchup, ask yourself is it because your deck is very different or because you didn't play correctly. I am no great shakes at the game and acknowledge when I made a bad mulligan decision, didn't shuffle correctly, or flat out didn't see a line of play. As a group, the only way we can improve this deck is through honesty with ourselves and our tools. We all want to make our matchup's better.
To date, our big bad meta matches are: Tron (all flavors), Amulet Bloom (Amulet of Vigor will probably get banned; what will replace it?), and Merfolk. I would say burn is 50/50 and better post board. There are other matches I am leaving out. What can we board or include to improve these?
So this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but here goes:
To date, our big bad meta matches are: Tron (all flavors), Amulet Bloom (Amulet of Vigor will probably get banned; what will replace it?), and Merfolk. I would say burn is 50/50 and better post board. There
Personally I expect Summer Bloom to be the card to get banned in Amulet decks if it does get a hit. As for what is going to replace it, B/X Eldrazi is the biggest contender. While its still uncertain whether it is a truly competitive deck, its power is not to be underestimated.
For the ramp decks I'm honestly not really sure what we can do against them. They can all survive Blood Moons and unless we splash Red for Crumble to Dust we really don't have a good answer to Ramp decks in general. Ghost Quarters help but considering the mana requirements of BW Tokens I'm not sure how many we can afford to run.
Hour of Reckoning and other Wrath effects are good against Merfolk, its just a matter of who can rebuild faster.
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I find it interesting that in the Bx Eldrazi primer, we're listed as one of their difficult matchups, although I can see us being well equipped to beat that deck I can also see it become more difficult as it goes beyond its infancy. I agree that we don't have anything in the spoilers that help us (yet?) I more so meant a green splash for existing cards to help us deal with spoilers that other decks may very well use to their advantage. Beast within and enchantment/artifact hate in green is strong along with the existing synergies that colour offers us. Admittedly, I'm getting preemptively worried about Hedron alignment.
I wouldn't worry about Hedron Alignment just yet. Until someone actually figures out a way to make it a non-durdlely win-con, it shouldn't be an issue.
Someone above mentioned shoring up our bad matchups like Tron, Amulet Bloom, and Merfolk. I would submit that there isn't much to be done about Tron. Stony Silence is our best SB option unless we devote a ton of slots to Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge (+ Surgical Extraction) and/or splash into red for Crumble to Dust or Sowing Salt. If we get paired against Tron, hope to have Stony Silence in the opener, hope they don't have a natural Tron, and hope they didn't have a green source in their opening hand. Personally, I write Tron off as a poor matchup and leave it at that.
For Amulet Bloom, our best hope is a banning. Barring that, disenchant-type effects for Amulet, discard, and removal for Prime Time are the only hope we have. I have won exactly one match against Amulet Bloom by getting rid of every Titan he played. Theoretically, you could use Surgical Extraction after hitting a Titan with a Thoughtseize.
For Merfolk, I do run one Wrath of God in the SB as a catch-all answer. Getting rid of Spreading Seas is key, and we can block for days if necessary.
I wouldn't say all Tron is bad, RG definitely is near unwinnable and I'd agree with the opinion of not bothering with trying to fix that for now. However U/x Tron I have yet to lose to but haven't played them too extensively (3-4 best of 3s). They are slower, Mindslaver tends to come down too late to help, and unless they O-Stone or overload a Cyclonic Rift I'd say we've got a 50/50 at least game 1. Take Rift and Stones with discard and hit hard and fast.
Have your wraths been a useful sb inclusion? Im sure it's meta dependant but Ive put 2 in for my lgs modern tomorrow, I found myself wanting a couple after my matches last week...
I agree the meta is hostile, but I think it's mostly Tron being a problem. Burn, Twin, and Bloom are not huge scourges. Burn and Twin we should have a solid win % against. Bloom... a couple path to Exiles with a Thoughtseize and we can win, no removal, no discard, we just lose. But sure, more 50/50, maybe worse. But nowhere near Tron.
So I guess I'm late to this reply but while Ugin can't be beat, so many other cards beat Pithing needle in Tron that we almost need to be naming something else (Karn/Stone) with our first Needle before we can name Ugin.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I've played a couple games where she's sweet and a couple games where she stinks. I'm not convinced that she's bad, but I haven' been able to put in much testing. If you're interested in trying her out against a few decks, let me know and we play some games via cockatrice.
I started looking into that deck, because it seems sweet and a lot of the expensive cards we share with them. From what I'm reading on the thread is the something like Leyline of sanctity really hurts them. It has game against some other decks in the field as well, but I've never been a huge fan of it's downsides....
As far as Oath of Gideon goes, I think it looks good. Honestly, I love me a more controlling build of Tokens and this would fit well. It curves well into our strongest walkers, Sorin, and Gideon and leaves behind 2 tokens to protect. In the case of Sorin, they're attacking right away. For 2W get as many tokens as Lingering souls, and leaves behind a (different) upside. Our 2 drops will curve nicely into this, either Bitter Blossom, or an anthem. I agree with the user above that an Oath build would be very strong.
Elspeth Tirel, Ajani Goldmane, and Ajani Steadfast would all be walkers I'll be looking into. Alongside the current three.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Hmm , actually I still can not decide to make a BW Tokens or Bx Eldrazi, have some cards to BW Tokens but Bx Eldrazi seems deck with great potential.
About Liliana of Veil any suggestion for an alternative card?
You don't really NEED Liliana. It's a good card, but recently I started playing without any in my 75. The reason is that my meta has almost no control decks. She's great against Splinter Twin, but I just prefer to run more removal instead, which can also be useful against other aggro decks.
Other than hexproof auras, I think Duress is an OK substitute for Liliana in most matchups where you want her.
Good point, I had actually forgotten about Stone cause I haven't had Tron drop it on me yet. Only played a couple games vs it though. Usually Ugin was what ended it. TnN actually might be more popular in my area from what I've seen (or I just always see those people), which is odd given the high level of serious competitive players here. TnN is also a much more favorable matchup.
Just put the wraths in to try them, while I did side them in round 1 and 3, never drew them, but will continue for a while to see how often they do work when I do get them.
Glad to help, and I'll post here for anyone to add. I don't think I've played the matchup. I've met a BW Soul Sisters while playing CoCo, but never a CoCo while playing tokens. CoCo was my main for a while through fall. I played tokens at GP Omaha then the pod and delve ban hit. When CoCo looked to replace pod I liked it. But we can't figure out how to make it Tier 1 like pod was, so I've played more burn and Grixis Twin recently.
Anyway, we have approx 7 discard. Vs any deck the key is figuring what to yank. I've always hated playing vs Kitchen Finks as tokens. The life gain, chump blocker vs warriors and combo pieces I hate. But I think Finks may be a trap to discard. When CoCo players play the all in combo versus grinder version (less combo + more toolbox and baby Lily-evolutionary leap) then they have 2 Melira, 1-2 Anafenza, 4-5 persisters (half are against redcap, half all over him as a one of + 4 finks) and usually only 3 sac outlets (minimum 2 Viscera Seer for infinite scry, then either a third Seer or Cartel Aristocrat/Varolz). A one of each of Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder is the new addition ... or return.
So what to target with our discard and removal? Don't worry about their removal they have at most 2 abrupt decay plus 2 path, possibly a Fiend Hunter. Only 2 removal game one. Game 2/3 they will pull out combo pieces against us for more removal and disenchants (if they even have more disenchant than the one of Qasali Pridemage in the 75).
What do we do?
They usually can't deal with planeswalkers. Some have 2 Thoughtseize SB but that's about it. Use you walkers, they'll have to attack them.
Weak to flyers. Birds won't hold up long against all our anthemed flyers.
Kill their combo. Exile their sac outlets first. There are only three. Don't discard them, as they have eternal witness.
Discard their chord of callings and eternal witnesses, because those will find the combo pieces or bring them back when you least want them. Don't worry about CoCo as much, which is the trap. Occasionally CoCo may find all the combo pieces they need, but they aren't a 4/6 two-card combo deck like twin, rather 3-4/4-5/3. They need three pieces to twin's two, and those three sac outlet 1/1s we ignore as weak are the weak spot. CoCo will often change the board, but will also often whiff (no creatures in the seven, or some more than 4 cmc go to the bottom ... I often just want to scoop with a CoCo whiff). I'd ignore it with discard over other priorities. They are a toolbox deck with lots of one offs (scooze, qasali, fiend hunter ... but watch out for their one Orzhov Pontiff somewhere in the 75) but need chord and eternal witness, or luck with CoCo, to get them at the right time. Not like pod, and especially if their Viscera Seers are exiled.
Next priorities. Ghost Quarter Gavony Township (counters on creatures). They have 2-3 which will be a problem over time. Get rid of Anafenza (bolster). Time zealous persecution right ... They don't have big creatures.
If you kill their combo off, tokens can outlast and fly over them for sure. We should usually be wider than them as well most of the game. Don't worry about your life total, just attack with vigilance fliers. I think it should be a good matchup for tokens.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Every new spoiled card in a set does not have a home in BW tokens. Just because it is white or black doesn't mean it is an auto-include. It generates tokens? Ok. We can look at it and play with it, but don't get your hopes up. Those of you who remember back to the Khans block and tokens, there were cards from there that people swore would play well with tokens and even put up results (aside from Sorin). Guess what? We don't see any of those. Past performance is not an indicator of future success, I agree. However, what I see a lot here is hope that some of these spoiled cards will be amazing. They will be, maybe, if you pair of 4 oath of gideon with a whole bunch of walkers. We lack the card draw and deck manipulation to really take advantage of the oath. There really isn't a whole lot to discuss on that point.
Having said this, we should play around with new stuff and throw it around. But, keep in mind: what match-ups do we have that are bad that this card will help improve? As a side note to that, if a lot of folks don't agree with you on a matchup, ask yourself is it because your deck is very different or because you didn't play correctly. I am no great shakes at the game and acknowledge when I made a bad mulligan decision, didn't shuffle correctly, or flat out didn't see a line of play. As a group, the only way we can improve this deck is through honesty with ourselves and our tools. We all want to make our matchup's better.
To date, our big bad meta matches are: Tron (all flavors), Amulet Bloom (Amulet of Vigor will probably get banned; what will replace it?), and Merfolk. I would say burn is 50/50 and better post board. There are other matches I am leaving out. What can we board or include to improve these?
Are there sleepers? O
Personally I expect Summer Bloom to be the card to get banned in Amulet decks if it does get a hit. As for what is going to replace it, B/X Eldrazi is the biggest contender. While its still uncertain whether it is a truly competitive deck, its power is not to be underestimated.
For the ramp decks I'm honestly not really sure what we can do against them. They can all survive Blood Moons and unless we splash Red for Crumble to Dust we really don't have a good answer to Ramp decks in general. Ghost Quarters help but considering the mana requirements of BW Tokens I'm not sure how many we can afford to run.
Hour of Reckoning and other Wrath effects are good against Merfolk, its just a matter of who can rebuild faster.
-Anonymous
Someone above mentioned shoring up our bad matchups like Tron, Amulet Bloom, and Merfolk. I would submit that there isn't much to be done about Tron. Stony Silence is our best SB option unless we devote a ton of slots to Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge (+ Surgical Extraction) and/or splash into red for Crumble to Dust or Sowing Salt. If we get paired against Tron, hope to have Stony Silence in the opener, hope they don't have a natural Tron, and hope they didn't have a green source in their opening hand. Personally, I write Tron off as a poor matchup and leave it at that.
For Amulet Bloom, our best hope is a banning. Barring that, disenchant-type effects for Amulet, discard, and removal for Prime Time are the only hope we have. I have won exactly one match against Amulet Bloom by getting rid of every Titan he played. Theoretically, you could use Surgical Extraction after hitting a Titan with a Thoughtseize.
For Merfolk, I do run one Wrath of God in the SB as a catch-all answer. Getting rid of Spreading Seas is key, and we can block for days if necessary.