I suppose I didn't calculate Gideon into the equation. It also depends on what build of tokens you want to play. Elspeth, knight-errant is fantastic in raise the alarm shells, but lacking in blossom shells. I never did test Gideon in a raise the alarm shell, but I've found it best to run 3 Sorin, SV in a blossom shell. Gideon just never made the cut.
Yeah, IMO he's only a consideration for BB shells, as you lose your Honor of the Pure anthems 5-6 in that version. I tried him out and was generally pretty happy, but I do agree his 1-2 (most likely just 1) slots are flex, whereas Sorin's minimum 3 slots are core.
I ran him at GP Pittsburgh back in November and he was the all-star in enough matches that I will not only not cut him but I was thinking about upping the count from 1 to 2 or 3. What I like about Gideon (and by extension Sorin, LoI and small Elspeth) is that he is gas all by himself. I have had too many cases were I had an empty board and he (they) have turned it around. The biggest plus in their favor is that making a token takes them out (or keeps them out) of bolt range. I completely understand Sorin, SV and his uses, but the fact that he is miserable to land on an empty board has had me experimenting with other planeswalkers.
I've been trying out vampiric rites as a two of in my list. I've tried cards like phyrexian arena and night's whisper, but I like that that we have expendable guys and the small life gain can certainly help. Any match up where the game slows down, which with tokens happens often the card has been doing work for me.
Rites and bitterblossom is also very nice.
I love how the cards that have came out of late the first impression of the cards are 'useless' except the few people that see the true potential. Sorin SV was 'useless' and thie Gideon first coming out was 'meh'... And now look. I agree with Gideon ALTHOUGH I don't know if my build as of right now would put him at 2 or 3. I run 3x Sorin, 2 Lili, and 1 Gideon.
Yes I underestimated Gideon as well, though I did not say anything. He is a fantastic card. With an anthem up, you are basically producing one wild nacatl per turn. His versatility is greater than Elspeth Knight-Errant but I do think Elspeth can still be used in a more aggressive raise-the-alarm build as a one-of.
Elspeth gets really good when you mainboard creatures such as Brimaz, Hero of Bladehold, or even Tidehollow Sculler. Jumping any one of these creatures can easily win games.
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For you folks who splash red, have you done any testing with Outnumber? I just picked up Tokens not too long ago, so I'm not too familiar with common situations during gameplay, but it seems like a nice source of instant-speed removal. Not something that warrants a splash in itself, but if you're already splashing red then I'd think it would be nice to have a few in the board. Thoughts?
The problem with Outnumber is that it would only be "okay" when you have more than 3 creatures on board (bolt exists). Even if you want to use it, you have to wait until turn 4 to prevent it from becoming a bad removal spell. And if you have to wait until turn 4 to cast it to its full potential, removals like dismember and murderous cut would be superior choices by then. Not to mention lightning helix and terminate...
Same problem with secure the waste. You would never use secure the waste on turn 2. It's icky to even use it on turn 3, considering we have superior token producers to cast on this turn. On turn 4, it starts becoming usable but by then you'd rather have another Midnight Haunting. So any deck that doesn't focus on a very control oriented version of BW that can guarantee turn 5+ usage of this card shouldn't be running it; you'd rather just run one extra flying token producer like Midnight Haunting (and maybe even an extra planeswalker).
For you folks who splash red, have you done any testing with Outnumber? I just picked up Tokens not too long ago, so I'm not too familiar with common situations during gameplay, but it seems like a nice source of instant-speed removal. Not something that warrants a splash in itself, but if you're already splashing red then I'd think it would be nice to have a few in the board. Thoughts?
I don't like Outnumber for two, somewhat related, reasons:
First, when the card is better than bold, it seems to be a "win-more" card to me. If I am firing this off to deal with a goyf (which can hit 7/8 in size easily against the bitterblossom version of the deck) or even a Tasigur/rhino I typically have the edge with creatures anyway. And while killing one for R would be great, I woudl rather do other things with my mana. To me it falls in the same vein as Unified Will, a card I ran in an experimental Esper tokens build. While great in theory, really sucked in application.
Second, this card does not lend itself to helping you catch up. Since it only goes towards creatures and not the face and scales depending on my board state, if I'm behind on the board this does not help when drawn.
EDIT: Full disclosure. I splash R and I do not run bolt. I used to, but I prefer the straight BW build maindeck. The splash is only for sideboard cards.
When you build a token deck sure it's a flex deck in comparison to other decks... However, depending on the core and shell you must build accordingly. Like how you want 5-7 removals. Well, we all know that Path to Exile should be an auto playset so really you can only put 1-3 more. Out of those cards what is the BEST removal within your meta and especially within your shell.
So if you're playing the Bitterblossom Shell, you most likely wouldn't want to include Dismember as 4 life is a BIG chunk along with the Fetches, Shocks and Thougthseizes. So you're left with Murderous Cut for your shell and for your meta you could possibly include Zealous Persecution.
The problem with Outnumber is three-fold. 1. It's out of our colors in the first place. 2. There's no options to aim it at a player. and 3. It's reliant on a positive board state... So you wasted a slot for a dead draw, you may not even have the color to cast it, and it may not be strong enough for what you'd want to do.
I've said it time and time again, when looking for cards look for 'options' within a single piece of cardboard. "What do you mean?" - Well, pointing out Planeswalkers like:
Sorin, Solemn Visitor: 1. Optional temp buff and extreme lifegain, 2. Emergency button Creature Gen, and 3. An ULT that destroys non-token creature based decks.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: 1. Second turn beat stick, 2. Creature Gen with no negative side, and 3. A perma Emblem to buff all your creatures THAT you can pop the turn he comes out.
Liliana of the Veil: 1. She destroys combo and tempo decks with the +1, 2. Provides MORE creature removal for us, and 3. TOTALLY disrupts their board state.
If they're not attacking my life, that means I'm staying alive another turn. Let them try and kill the Walkers.
What else are options... Well we do have:
Timely Reinforcements: This is an option that is a mandated type thing. Although we can control our life with Fetches and Shocks and Thoughtseizes and Bitterblossom, Oh MY!
Zealous Persecution: I use 2 MB because it gets rid of mana dorks, shuts down or slows down Infect, and at the best it's a pseudo anthem for late game finishes. I love it.
For you folks who splash red, have you done any testing with Outnumber? I just picked up Tokens not too long ago, so I'm not too familiar with common situations during gameplay, but it seems like a nice source of instant-speed removal. Not something that warrants a splash in itself, but if you're already splashing red then I'd think it would be nice to have a few in the board. Thoughts?
I don't like Outnumber for two, somewhat related, reasons:
First, when the card is better than bold, it seems to be a "win-more" card to me. If I am firing this off to deal with a goyf (which can hit 7/8 in size easily against the bitterblossom version of the deck) or even a Tasigur/rhino I typically have the edge with creatures anyway. And while killing one for R would be great, I woudl rather do other things with my mana. To me it falls in the same vein as Unified Will, a card I ran in an experimental Esper tokens build. While great in theory, really sucked in application.
Second, this card does not lend itself to helping you catch up. Since it only goes towards creatures and not the face and scales depending on my board state, if I'm behind on the board this does not help when drawn.
EDIT: Full disclosure. I splash R and I do not run bolt. I used to, but I prefer the straight BW build maindeck. The splash is only for sideboard cards.
It probably costs too much for the effect. It seems really good in Bitterblossom builds. On a sidenote, if I want to be a more midrangey build, should I get Bitterblossoms or stick to Raise the Alarm.
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For you folks who splash red, have you done any testing with Outnumber? I just picked up Tokens not too long ago, so I'm not too familiar with common situations during gameplay, but it seems like a nice source of instant-speed removal. Not something that warrants a splash in itself, but if you're already splashing red then I'd think it would be nice to have a few in the board. Thoughts?
I don't like Outnumber for two, somewhat related, reasons:
First, when the card is better than bold, it seems to be a "win-more" card to me. If I am firing this off to deal with a goyf (which can hit 7/8 in size easily against the bitterblossom version of the deck) or even a Tasigur/rhino I typically have the edge with creatures anyway. And while killing one for R would be great, I woudl rather do other things with my mana. To me it falls in the same vein as Unified Will, a card I ran in an experimental Esper tokens build. While great in theory, really sucked in application.
Second, this card does not lend itself to helping you catch up. Since it only goes towards creatures and not the face and scales depending on my board state, if I'm behind on the board this does not help when drawn.
EDIT: Full disclosure. I splash R and I do not run bolt. I used to, but I prefer the straight BW build maindeck. The splash is only for sideboard cards.
I have not tried it but am intrigued. Right now my flex spot is Sword of War and Peace. In the past it has been Blood Baron of Vizkopa (not as bad as you think and I have considered going back to him). I think I might drop in Purphoros and see how he works. Theoretically, he has everything that we need. He can provide reach, he can pump our team, and he is impossible to remove, especially game 1.
The problem with Drana is that she competes for the 3 cost spot where we have a plethora of other options. She also makes opponents 1 for 1 removal worth something, something this deck does a great job of negating. Plus, she is boltable.
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You want at least 3 Sorins though, 4 might not even be incorrect.
I ran him at GP Pittsburgh back in November and he was the all-star in enough matches that I will not only not cut him but I was thinking about upping the count from 1 to 2 or 3. What I like about Gideon (and by extension Sorin, LoI and small Elspeth) is that he is gas all by himself. I have had too many cases were I had an empty board and he (they) have turned it around. The biggest plus in their favor is that making a token takes them out (or keeps them out) of bolt range. I completely understand Sorin, SV and his uses, but the fact that he is miserable to land on an empty board has had me experimenting with other planeswalkers.
Rites and bitterblossom is also very nice.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Same problem with secure the waste. You would never use secure the waste on turn 2. It's icky to even use it on turn 3, considering we have superior token producers to cast on this turn. On turn 4, it starts becoming usable but by then you'd rather have another Midnight Haunting. So any deck that doesn't focus on a very control oriented version of BW that can guarantee turn 5+ usage of this card shouldn't be running it; you'd rather just run one extra flying token producer like Midnight Haunting (and maybe even an extra planeswalker).
I don't like Outnumber for two, somewhat related, reasons:
First, when the card is better than bold, it seems to be a "win-more" card to me. If I am firing this off to deal with a goyf (which can hit 7/8 in size easily against the bitterblossom version of the deck) or even a Tasigur/rhino I typically have the edge with creatures anyway. And while killing one for R would be great, I woudl rather do other things with my mana. To me it falls in the same vein as Unified Will, a card I ran in an experimental Esper tokens build. While great in theory, really sucked in application.
Second, this card does not lend itself to helping you catch up. Since it only goes towards creatures and not the face and scales depending on my board state, if I'm behind on the board this does not help when drawn.
EDIT: Full disclosure. I splash R and I do not run bolt. I used to, but I prefer the straight BW build maindeck. The splash is only for sideboard cards.
So if you're playing the Bitterblossom Shell, you most likely wouldn't want to include Dismember as 4 life is a BIG chunk along with the Fetches, Shocks and Thougthseizes. So you're left with Murderous Cut for your shell and for your meta you could possibly include Zealous Persecution.
The problem with Outnumber is three-fold. 1. It's out of our colors in the first place. 2. There's no options to aim it at a player. and 3. It's reliant on a positive board state... So you wasted a slot for a dead draw, you may not even have the color to cast it, and it may not be strong enough for what you'd want to do.
I've said it time and time again, when looking for cards look for 'options' within a single piece of cardboard. "What do you mean?" - Well, pointing out Planeswalkers like:
What else are options... Well we do have:
What red cards do you use in the board?
I run two Crumble to Dust and two Wear // Tear. Crumble to Dust is the reason I even went for an R splash.
I have not tried it but am intrigued. Right now my flex spot is Sword of War and Peace. In the past it has been Blood Baron of Vizkopa (not as bad as you think and I have considered going back to him). I think I might drop in Purphoros and see how he works. Theoretically, he has everything that we need. He can provide reach, he can pump our team, and he is impossible to remove, especially game 1.
The problem with Drana is that she competes for the 3 cost spot where we have a plethora of other options. She also makes opponents 1 for 1 removal worth something, something this deck does a great job of negating. Plus, she is boltable.