Been switching between 2 lili 3 spectral and 1 lili 4 spectral. Felt like i want 1 lili main and 1 side.
Looks pretty solid to me. 14 token generators is kind of a lot, maybe take out the RtA for another discard?
Believe me when I say 12 is not enough nowadays xD. On many playtests, I felt like whenever I play against control decks, whenever i don't resolve BB, it's gonna be an uphill battle. I can't uptick my BB to 4 cause of many red decks running rampant in my meta. That's why i need some kind of instant generator like Start//Finish and RtA, even if this is a BB build. Those instant speed play has saved me some game from board wipe.
Thank you , field of ruin is just too good , i never felt like a worse ghost quarter during the gp , infact , tron usually get into tron and got slanded by FoR quiete easy ,also seize is necessary when we are on draw , the only real plan against tron is to buy time and surgical their lands ; spectrall got worse with FoR and i decided that RtA id a better tokens generator cause we can be more agressive in early turns , comboing with legion's and land a gideon on turn 3 . the little gideon is incredible , so many times he locked the opponent and closed the game , infact ,my build is studied to be aggressive but can switch in the controlish mode quite easally tanks the planeswalkers , for the example i won the game 1 against bant knigtfall with gideon junior and senior , plus 1 on their 20/20 reliquiary , until i got the game. all 3 gideon mmodes are good and the opponent have to kill him and other brothers in order to win the game.
vote : FoR 8/10
Legion's 6/10
gideon j 10/10
I certainly like the idea. I'm still sceptical regarding Field of Ruin. 2 and tap seems very clunky, that takes up an entire turn in the early-mid game...
Do some other people have thoughts on this matter that they want to share?
Overall I think going only for the cheaper token creators might be a pretty effective way to make the deck faster while retaining BB's persistence.
Here's what it boils down to IMO. Field of Ruin is great for reactive decks that play at instant speed like U/W Control. It's a no-brainer upgrade over Ghost Quarter for them.
It's even a great card for decks that both are little more reactive than our decks and have a lower curve. The best example of this is G/B Rock which can devote more resources to the Field of Ruin's mana cost, earlier in the game. They can consistently pull off Turn 2 Threat, followed by activate Field of Ruin AND play Spot Removal / Hand Disruption on Turn 3.
Meanwhile, with Tokens, we pretty consistently want to be playing a token producer on Turn 3, and consequently, the opportunity cost of activating Field of Ruin on that turn is high. If we're holding Sorin or Gideon, it's generally also high when we have our fourth land drop. Even without them, Field of Ruin potentially costs us tempo. With four lands on the battlefield, if one of them is GQ, we can crack it and play a token producer. If one of the four is Field, the only thing we can do in addition to activating it is play a 1-mana removal or disruption spell.
The question in my mind then becomes where do you draw the value line between the relative card and tempo advantages of Field vs. GQ. Because most of our builds run ~10-11 three-drops, 3-4 four drops, and more or less want to be playing on curve when possible, I think the relative value advantage leans towards GQ. Contrast this with G/B Rock, which runs 6-8 three-drops, no four drops, deploys its threats earlier, and runs the same amount of land as we do, allowing additional flexibility with its mana. Advantage for them: Field of Ruin.
You could make a Tokens build that would strictly favor Field. If you threw together 4x Legion's Landing, 4x Raise the Alarm, 4x Bitterblossom, ran 8x disruption, 8x removal, topped your curve with a few 3-drop token producers, a pair of Sorins, and kept the land count high, then sure, you would have the flexibility to efficiently take advantage of Field of Ruin. But with very few exceptions, we don't build our decks that way.
Anyways, maybe there's some other factor I'm missing, but from what I can tell, that pretty much encompasses the fundamentals behind where Field is or is not preferred.
Well explained @ChainVeil! This is good tech for tokens especially, as well as any other deck out there. Always look at your curve and pay attention to what you ideally want to play. @tarotplz had a similar explanation; if something feels "clunky" it's likely not ideal for the curve.
Hey diateone -- why are you only running 2x Thoughtseize? I have heard some pretty compelling arguments recently for why it is a stronger card than IoK in the current meta.
that is actually something I have been strongly considering lately. Would love to hear some arguments in any case but I can imagine that the un-bans are quite a heavy point in this discussion, arent they? I see you play 3/3, and I think that is something I would like to try at some point.
that is actually something I have been strongly considering lately. Would love to hear some arguments in any case but I can imagine that the un-bans are quite a heavy point in this discussion, arent they? I see you play 3/3, and I think that is something I would like to try at some point.
I'm actually running 4/2 in favor of Thoughtseize now. The link in my signature is outdated. Here is my current build:
Oh and to paraphrase dhamlin, "Thoughtseize is gonna be really important for the next few weeks. UWx Jace, Jund, Shift, and Tron are all going to spike. Its relevance is not only for Jace and BBE, but also for the decks that will see increased presence in response to the unbannings, as well as for the cards that will increase in proportion to the greater prevalence of UWx Jace decks, like Cryptic and Verdict".
If fast aggro/combo decks pick up more of the metagame share in coming weeks, I'll probably switch back to 3/3 though. 4x Thoughtseize + 4x Bitterblossom is a lot of life-loss, but it's not as relevant as the value of those cards in the current metagame at the moment IMO.
The more I see the aggro lists utilizing field of ruins, the more that i want to try them out. Not bringing auriok champion is a bit worrisome tho, as that card alone almost shuts down GDS, which in my local meta has around 4-6 people.
Hello guys! After almost a year I am back on tokens to face this new Jace and Elf meta! I started testing this list. I took the base from a guy who brought to recent GP Lyon with a decent result (for being a tier3 especially) and I changed some parts!
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
[quote from="rick90 »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/656590-bw-tokens?comment=3849"]Hello guys! After almost a year I am back on tokens to face this new Jace and Elf meta! I started testing this list. I took the base from a guy who brought to recent GP Lyon with a decent result (for being a tier3 especially) and I changed some parts!
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
Hello ChainVeil. All credits for the list goes to Marcofra17! I saw the list on an italian facebook group reported by him playing it at last GP Lyon and i decided to test with some little changes (the 4th path and changing a field of ruin for the vault of archangel) and I was impressed too! I tested a lot online and I won almost every match against midrange and aggro (4-0 against Jund currently). Also against combo the list is super fast and with the support of discards we can win by means of a fast race! The most impressive thing is that the deck can also change to a more control gameplan by means of the Gideons pack. I am really enjoying the list, for sure some changes can be done but right now it is super fast!
What sideboards did you both work with. Did the changes in the deck bring much changes there?
If fast aggro/combo decks pick up more of the metagame share in coming weeks, I'll probably switch back to 3/3 though. 4x Thoughtseize + 4x Bitterblossom is a lot of life-loss, but it's not as relevant as the value of those cards in the current metagame at the moment IMO.
This goes in line with what I had in mind too. I will try a 3/3 split for now, since I dont want to be overexposed to aggro decks that will try to response to the Jace meta shift **ehem**lightning bolt**ehem**.
Hello guys! After almost a year I am back on tokens to face this new Jace and Elf meta! I started testing this list. I took the base from a guy who brought to recent GP Lyon with a decent result (for being a tier3 especially) and I changed some parts!
This list is really interesting. I feel butterflies in my belly if I think about running again those 4 Raise the alarm, for a more explosive start. In my case I would need to drop the 2 Start // Finish and the 2 Spectral Procession, which makes total sense if we are shifting towards a hybrid deck. After that, 2 copies of Legion's landing for a collective brutality and a land would get me there. My only but are the little gideons. Wouldnt Lili offer better value? I see the synergy with the other gideons but IDK... Probably makes more sense for this build, although not playing her makes me feel guilty xD. Can someone give a little explanation about what matchups is he good at? It would be really helpful.
So guys, since I don't know how to put one of those fancy deck-link thingamajigs in my signature (maybe someone can teach me how to do that)and since it's been quite a while that I last posted my list, I guess I'll post what I've been playing.
I'd love to get some critisism from you all. Please be harsh, honest and nitpicky, I'm trying to improve the deck after all
I've been interested in adding some Ghost Quarters/Field of Ruins to shore up the Tron matchup and also as an additional way to handle manlands, but I'm worried about being able to cast Spectral Procession in a timely manner. How often do the two Ghost Quarters disrupt a turn 3 Spectral, and how does it feel when having to play Spectral on turn 4 instead for 2WW?
In my list I've cut down to 2 procession and 1 secure the waste and it works pretty well.
I play a mix of mid range/aggro version of the deck with raise the Alarm and many anthems effects to be able to hit fast with flyers and control the board with soldiers.
Here's my deck list. I'm still in testing. The goal is to discard or killing big threats and to put fast early tokens for pressure and board control the to kill with pumped flyers while warriors tokens help you to keep the board control.
For the sideboard :
Timely renforcement is for any kind of aggro decks, this card is soooo good it makes me win some games by itself. 6 life and 3 tokens for 3 is not that rare.
Blessed Alliance is for boggles, because the deck is a thing atm. It's not that good because they start to put leyline main deck... the match up feel very bad... Blessed Alliance is still a very good card that come in many different match up.
Feel free to ask any question or leave a feedback on the list, it's still in testing !
Thanks
I’m assuming that you’ve tuned this list in response to an aggro heavy meta. You’ve gone quite light on hand disruption (I would never drop below 5) and quite heavy on creature removal. Is there a reason for this?
I’ve been running lists similar to this for a while at FNM and been able to at least 2-2 regularly in a meta that lacks Tron (but also lacks some other traditionally good matchups for us) and I am happy with it.
I would personally feel unsafe going without two anguished unmaking in the 75, especially as you lack other planeswalker or enchantment removal.
Without knowing more about your meta... the list seems fine. Although with you leaning towards being aggressive with legion’s landing and raise the alarm you need to swap out the Shambling Vents since you want as few tapped lands as possible. Put in Shefet Dunes instead.
Thanks for the tips for the land
I play few disruption because I want to be aggressive and play early threats. The goal of the deck is not to make 1 for 1 but X for 1.
That's why I usually don't like discard that much. I still play 3 Duress in the side for some combo decks.
7 creatures removal is not that high for me, start // Finish is hybrid and never a dead card.
The deck have some problem to fight big creatures with trample, I want to be sure to being able to kill this kind of things when they are here.
For the one Anguished, I don't need that much a second one because I usually have many creatures on the board and it's not that hard to kill planeswalker when they come.
And in my meta there is no decks where there is enchantment that are dangerous for us.
One of the other weaknesses of the deck is the lack of draws, that's why I find start /// Finish and Legion's Landing so good. (As is Lingering Souls but it's auto include in any token decks.)
That's why I don't play Brutality, because I don't like to discard my on cards and do 1 for 1.
I am wondering about including a tidehollow sculler, to fit the discard + threat gameplan but he has not that many synergies with other cards... I maybe will try him instead of start // Finish but I'm not sure if he's good enough for this.
To finish my deck has 2 main goal, being able to race combo decks and big mana, and fight aggro decks with value tools to beat them.
I still have a decent match-up against midrange because Lingering Souls and Legion's Landing are incredible tools against them.
They don't really disrupt the manabase much at all. Most people actually play more than just 2 GQ. I think it'S a very important card to have in the deck. A 2WW situation almost never comes up.
Yeah, I definitely think the land disruption will help immensely in some matchups. Definitely something I'll have to try, thanks!
I’ve been running two GQ for a while now and it definitely has caused issues with turn 3 spectrals to the point that I even considered dropping them at one point in favour of midnight haunting (although I am admittedly super reactionary about feel-bad games).
Dropping spectral down to 3 to allow a Secure the Wastes has put me in fewer bad mana situations but I might even go down to 2 to squeeze more ghost quarters in.
I was literally thinking about using some amount of Midnight Hauntings to offset the colorless lands, but decided that was most likely pretty bad. Also considered Start // Finish. Totally forgot about Secure the Wastes, though! I ran that as a one-of in the past when it was released and really liked how it played. I'll have to tinker around with it again and see how I like it in the current meta. Thanks!
They don't really disrupt the manabase much at all. Most people actually play more than just 2 GQ. I think it'S a very important card to have in the deck. A 2WW situation almost never comes up.
Might as well drop my 2-cents on this too. I have a 23 lands manabase with 4 nonwhite sources (2 Ghost quarter, 1 Vault of the archangel and 1 swamp) and I rarely have issues dropping a Spectral procession turn 3. Not saying it doesn't happen, but if I can't drop it turn 3, I usually have something else I can do until the fourth land drops(Liliana of the veil, Lingering souls, 2-drops + 1 drops or a land entering tapped, etc.).
Hell at one point I was Abzan and I had more trouble hitting GB for Abrupt decay than I had hitting WWW for spectral.
Believe me when I say 12 is not enough nowadays xD. On many playtests, I felt like whenever I play against control decks, whenever i don't resolve BB, it's gonna be an uphill battle. I can't uptick my BB to 4 cause of many red decks running rampant in my meta. That's why i need some kind of instant generator like Start//Finish and RtA, even if this is a BB build. Those instant speed play has saved me some game from board wipe.
vote : FoR 8/10
Legion's 6/10
gideon j 10/10
Here's what it boils down to IMO. Field of Ruin is great for reactive decks that play at instant speed like U/W Control. It's a no-brainer upgrade over Ghost Quarter for them.
It's even a great card for decks that both are little more reactive than our decks and have a lower curve. The best example of this is G/B Rock which can devote more resources to the Field of Ruin's mana cost, earlier in the game. They can consistently pull off Turn 2 Threat, followed by activate Field of Ruin AND play Spot Removal / Hand Disruption on Turn 3.
Meanwhile, with Tokens, we pretty consistently want to be playing a token producer on Turn 3, and consequently, the opportunity cost of activating Field of Ruin on that turn is high. If we're holding Sorin or Gideon, it's generally also high when we have our fourth land drop. Even without them, Field of Ruin potentially costs us tempo. With four lands on the battlefield, if one of them is GQ, we can crack it and play a token producer. If one of the four is Field, the only thing we can do in addition to activating it is play a 1-mana removal or disruption spell.
The question in my mind then becomes where do you draw the value line between the relative card and tempo advantages of Field vs. GQ. Because most of our builds run ~10-11 three-drops, 3-4 four drops, and more or less want to be playing on curve when possible, I think the relative value advantage leans towards GQ. Contrast this with G/B Rock, which runs 6-8 three-drops, no four drops, deploys its threats earlier, and runs the same amount of land as we do, allowing additional flexibility with its mana. Advantage for them: Field of Ruin.
You could make a Tokens build that would strictly favor Field. If you threw together 4x Legion's Landing, 4x Raise the Alarm, 4x Bitterblossom, ran 8x disruption, 8x removal, topped your curve with a few 3-drop token producers, a pair of Sorins, and kept the land count high, then sure, you would have the flexibility to efficiently take advantage of Field of Ruin. But with very few exceptions, we don't build our decks that way.
Anyways, maybe there's some other factor I'm missing, but from what I can tell, that pretty much encompasses the fundamentals behind where Field is or is not preferred.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
----------------------------------
Hey diateone -- why are you only running 2x Thoughtseize? I have heard some pretty compelling arguments recently for why it is a stronger card than IoK in the current meta.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I'm actually running 4/2 in favor of Thoughtseize now. The link in my signature is outdated. Here is my current build:
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery
1x Collective Brutality
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Start / Finish
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantment
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Rites
Oh and to paraphrase dhamlin, "Thoughtseize is gonna be really important for the next few weeks. UWx Jace, Jund, Shift, and Tron are all going to spike. Its relevance is not only for Jace and BBE, but also for the decks that will see increased presence in response to the unbannings, as well as for the cards that will increase in proportion to the greater prevalence of UWx Jace decks, like Cryptic and Verdict".
If fast aggro/combo decks pick up more of the metagame share in coming weeks, I'll probably switch back to 3/3 though. 4x Thoughtseize + 4x Bitterblossom is a lot of life-loss, but it's not as relevant as the value of those cards in the current metagame at the moment IMO.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
What sideboards did you both work with. Did the changes in the deck bring much changes there?
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Just for simplicity, I used the same sideboard that I do with my primary build:
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Rites
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
This goes in line with what I had in mind too. I will try a 3/3 split for now, since I dont want to be overexposed to aggro decks that will try to response to the Jace meta shift **ehem**lightning bolt**ehem**.
This list is really interesting. I feel butterflies in my belly if I think about running again those 4 Raise the alarm, for a more explosive start. In my case I would need to drop the 2 Start // Finish and the 2 Spectral Procession, which makes total sense if we are shifting towards a hybrid deck. After that, 2 copies of Legion's landing for a collective brutality and a land would get me there. My only but are the little gideons. Wouldnt Lili offer better value? I see the synergy with the other gideons but IDK... Probably makes more sense for this build, although not playing her makes me feel guilty xD. Can someone give a little explanation about what matchups is he good at? It would be really helpful.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I've been interested in adding some Ghost Quarters/Field of Ruins to shore up the Tron matchup and also as an additional way to handle manlands, but I'm worried about being able to cast Spectral Procession in a timely manner. How often do the two Ghost Quarters disrupt a turn 3 Spectral, and how does it feel when having to play Spectral on turn 4 instead for 2WW?
In my list I've cut down to 2 procession and 1 secure the waste and it works pretty well.
I play a mix of mid range/aggro version of the deck with raise the Alarm and many anthems effects to be able to hit fast with flyers and control the board with soldiers.
And I play with 4 fields of Ruin.
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Removal (7)
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
Anthems (6)
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Zealous Persecution
Token Producers (15)
4x Raise The Alarm
4x Lingering Souls
2x Start // Finish
2x Spectral Procession
1x Secure The Wastes
2x Legion's Landing
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands (24)
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
4x Field Of Ruin
3x Godless Shrine
2x Shambling Vent
4x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Duress
3x Timely Reinforcements
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Stony Silence
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Extirpate
Here's my deck list. I'm still in testing. The goal is to discard or killing big threats and to put fast early tokens for pressure and board control the to kill with pumped flyers while warriors tokens help you to keep the board control.
For the sideboard :
Timely renforcement is for any kind of aggro decks, this card is soooo good it makes me win some games by itself. 6 life and 3 tokens for 3 is not that rare.
Blessed Alliance is for boggles, because the deck is a thing atm. It's not that good because they start to put leyline main deck... the match up feel very bad... Blessed Alliance is still a very good card that come in many different match up.
Feel free to ask any question or leave a feedback on the list, it's still in testing !
Thanks
Thanks for the tips for the land
I play few disruption because I want to be aggressive and play early threats. The goal of the deck is not to make 1 for 1 but X for 1.
That's why I usually don't like discard that much. I still play 3 Duress in the side for some combo decks.
7 creatures removal is not that high for me, start // Finish is hybrid and never a dead card.
The deck have some problem to fight big creatures with trample, I want to be sure to being able to kill this kind of things when they are here.
For the one Anguished, I don't need that much a second one because I usually have many creatures on the board and it's not that hard to kill planeswalker when they come.
And in my meta there is no decks where there is enchantment that are dangerous for us.
One of the other weaknesses of the deck is the lack of draws, that's why I find start /// Finish and Legion's Landing so good. (As is Lingering Souls but it's auto include in any token decks.)
That's why I don't play Brutality, because I don't like to discard my on cards and do 1 for 1.
I am wondering about including a tidehollow sculler, to fit the discard + threat gameplan but he has not that many synergies with other cards... I maybe will try him instead of start // Finish but I'm not sure if he's good enough for this.
To finish my deck has 2 main goal, being able to race combo decks and big mana, and fight aggro decks with value tools to beat them.
I still have a decent match-up against midrange because Lingering Souls and Legion's Landing are incredible tools against them.
Yeah, I definitely think the land disruption will help immensely in some matchups. Definitely something I'll have to try, thanks!
I was literally thinking about using some amount of Midnight Hauntings to offset the colorless lands, but decided that was most likely pretty bad. Also considered Start // Finish. Totally forgot about Secure the Wastes, though! I ran that as a one-of in the past when it was released and really liked how it played. I'll have to tinker around with it again and see how I like it in the current meta. Thanks!
Hell at one point I was Abzan and I had more trouble hitting GB for Abrupt decay than I had hitting WWW for spectral.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)