This card looks like it could possibly be a build around me card. If not a 3-4 of mainboard, it might still find a place in the side for particular matchups.
Biorhythm seems to favor us heavily. We substitute a lot of mana for creatures, giving us an advantage over nearly every opponent. This card could instantly win us the game if the opponent has no creatures! Seems the deck can produce 8 mana on turn 3-5 if I remember correctly. We don't even need the opponent to have 0 creatures. Even if they have a few life after it resolves, things like wolfbriar elemental that can net us a ton of creatures. Other things like Strangleroot Geist, Hornet queen Garruk and Xenagos walker can start flooding out our side with creatures.
The other thing I like about the card is that Craterhoof Behemoth, overrun and Garruk's ultimate all like having a lot of creatures. A deck could have biorhythm in as a wincon, while still having an alternative win con in the above cards.
I was worried about burn for a second. However, if we have 4 creatures or they have no mana up, it seems pretty safe. It could actually gain us life sometimes while decimating the opponent's if played. Also, responding with a burn spell to this card is useless. If they have no creatures, they are dead before they can respond.
Remember, vexing shusher can protect against counterspells. I'm sure there's a couple of more as well, I just don't know them.
One last consideration would be the old sideboard switcheroo. We could run these mb then side in craterhoof into it's place if we feel the opponent will try to answer Biorhythmm or vice versa.
I'll admit I don't have the knowledge to evaluate this card properly. Perhaps it's worthless, but perhaps it's a diamond in the rough?
What say you, wise mages of the green devotion thread?
I tried to brew a tiny bit with Shaman of the Forgotten Ways (as it was a good Woodland Bellower target I thought...but never truly tested it. The idea is really cool! I was always a little worried direct damage could kill me...but now that we have access to it via Walking Ballista it may be even a better idea! Let me know how it goes! I think the idea is there though.
I'll have a look for a Mouth//Feed and try out a copy.
I'll also try out a singleton Abundance but I feel as though everyone's conclusions are 99.9% correct and justified; it's just a case of me having to see how bad it is for myself!
I'll be on the lookout for an Arbor Colossus as well, offering a good way to deal with fliers, a nice mana sink and 3 devotion (as opposed to Dragonlord Atarka's 1 devotion, though it is probably the better card). I believe the giant was considered in very early builds (I once read this thread from back to front!) Polukranos is probably better, I'm just more interested in Reach, since it means that the colossus can semi deal with fliers as soon as it comes down, so you don't have to worry about not having enough mana for monstrous unlike with Polu.
Thoughts on Atzocan Archer (MB or SB)? Very good in the mirror match haha
Just a note about Primalcrux-Mirrorweave interaction, since I didn't read it well the first time - this won't work versus creature decks! It turns ALL creatures into a copy! If the opponent has more creatures than you, it's lights out. Just thought I should point that out.
@Gruul_Me_Harder
It still actually packs a wallop since you should have devotion from other sources aside from the creatures since you do play a devotion build. They get 4 Primalcrux at most with no other devotion pump while yours get pump from sources like priveleged position, Kiora or Garruk, Utopia Vow, Oath of Nissa and other non creature stuff. Thanks too for the update. This means I need creature bounce in the build for UG Devotion. And when the effect wears out, if you had a Walking Ballista in play with full tank, you can snipe away the remaining life.
I also came across Kira Glass Spinner as spot removal tech for us for whatever build for Devotion and I want you guys to try that out.
Quote from @GarfieldKlon »
Only once i got with Kiora her Final in my FNM. That was really great and a instant win Grin . It's funny to have Octopus Tokens in the DeckBox , but in the most time i got my Mana and i search for a finisher with the -2 ability.
I will drop the Simic Sky Swallower. I didn't really need Hexproof against Control Matchups. The Balista is nice even in the first rounds and good against nasty fliers.
@GarfieldKlon
I'm going to tinker with a UG deck with 3 Ruric Thar the Unbowed plus Mirror Gallery and Genesis Wave. If opponent casts any non-creature spell, kaput in style, If Kira Glass Pinner can keep blockers alive from spot removal, then 5 turns of grind out stall, Hello Emblem Octopussy. The Ocotbus also make great fodder for even 1 Primalcrux main deck plus 1 Mirrorweave as a defensive tech too and a spell like a Timmy Craterhoof Behemothitself.
And maybe put in some tech that makes dying creatures painful for the opponent. If the Overgrown Battlement-Sylvan Caryatid Wall mana dork build I'm putting together can stall aggro and get extra turn tricks or so, I'd like to have a UG devotion deck that consistently wins off the Kiora Master of Depths ulimtate ability. If not the Mirrorweave-Primalcrux option.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I'll have a look for a Mouth//Feed and try out a copy.
I'll also try out a singleton Abundance but I feel as though everyone's conclusions are 99.9% correct and justified; it's just a case of me having to see how bad it is for myself!
I'll be on the lookout for an Arbor Colossus as well, offering a good way to deal with fliers, a nice mana sink and 3 devotion (as opposed to Dragonlord Atarka's 1 devotion, though it is probably the better card). I believe the giant was considered in very early builds (I once read this thread from back to front!) Polukranos is probably better, I'm just more interested in Reach, since it means that the colossus can semi deal with fliers as soon as it comes down, so you don't have to worry about not having enough mana for monstrous unlike with Polu.
Thoughts on Atzocan Archer (MB or SB)? Very good in the mirror match haha
I generally find Hornet Queen, Ruric Thar, and Atarka are pretty good answers to fliers and threats in their own right (in that order). The Colossus probably won't quite pass muster.
The Archer is a bit too limited in what it can remove. You'd really want some passive team-pump to fully exploit it. Primal Forcemage is a bit niche. But a Kessig, Rhonas, or Nylea with a ton of extra mana could certainly make it a respectable removal effect in the mid-late game.
I agree with most of your assertions here. They mirror my own conclusions.
I don't think Abundance is a good answer though, since it doesn't deal with the problem of drawing non-land sources of mana. Courser does as much for getting lands out of the way.
Mana sinks seem the better path.
Mouth//Feed seems pretty good, though it doesn't generate Devotion for us. If we run a lot of stuff with 3 power like Vizier of the Menagerie, it might be worth it. It can also generate enough if you use it immediately following a Garruk overrun... assuming that doesn't finish the job.
Nissa is likely to be cut for a Rhonas at some point in the near future.
Hmm, although I like all the big creatures with Pact, I think Eternal Witness and Voice of Zendikar are pretty weak here. I woul replace them with something that I really miss in your list, an actual mana sink. With the Pact, at least 1x Wolfbriar Elemental. It seems dorky but is great. Kick it 2x and it is 8 power for 6 mana (often it is more!). But I would add 3 in that deck over the mentioned cards. (Sure, Witness can get a Pact back, but why not just find the right bomb with the 1st pact? Recycle PW is nice, but if you run Witness, Primal Command becomes much better, steering it towards control, less aggro / toolbox. Another option is using 3x Elvish Visionary to have another card that works well with the mana from BTE.
I generally agree with you. Nissa VoZ isn't as strong here, though occasionally she turns a team of BTEs and Coursers into a respectable army. Eternal Witness often just gets played for value (most opponents have discard and removal), but it was also a card that just didn't seem especially strong in this build.
Mana sinks are great. The Chamaleon Colossus came back into the MD for that reason, and I also said Nissa VoZ is likely to become Rhonas, which is another great mana sink. I'm also huge fan of Wolfbriar; that and Polukranos are high on the list of cards that may replace Witness in this build.
What do you think of Leyline of Sanctity in sideboard in a Tooth and Nail? Im trying this 3x along with 2x Choke and Boseiju in a standard T&N list with 3 Blood Moon main. BM is giving me a great MU against Eldrazi Tron, Tron and Valakut. I expect Leyline to help me survive long enough to combo against Storm plus it’s quite good against DS
Hey all! Sorry for delay in posts. I wanted to get to at least 80 matches with my more "disruptive" build. I'm at 59 - 27 with the deck (it has seen some changes during this run; but only a card here or there every few match ups/board changes).
After tuning this deck, I really found that when tuning decks, I always end up getting close to the same place...Here is the current list I've been playing:
(A) switching out Thalia's Lancers for Thought-Knot Seer in the main. I go back and forth. TKS is “generally” better; but Lancers has been a great way to turn Eldritch Evolution into a Elesh Norn, Karn, Garruk, Nykthos, etc...so until I feel like I need another sideboard slot I likely will keep it. It also is great to come in when bringing in “Bullet Legendaries” which I have a good amount of...
(c) I am also currently deciding on the best Tutor...Chord of Calling and Eldritch Evolution is a surprisingly difficult decision. I will provide another post where I discuss the differences between the two (i.e. which is better from behind, ahead, pros/cons of each, etc.)
Also, if I feel the meta will allow it; I could also utilize the the Summoner's Pact + Craterhoof Behemoth package (this is what I had before). If I can get away with a little less interaction and where metas permit...I play this package as it goes extremely well with Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I can provide the decklist; however it is extremely similar to the above (swapping out Carven Caryatid for Courser, Elesh Norn for Craterhoof, and Garruk Relentless for Hornet Queen)...just a slightly more linear approach to the same-style deck. I discuss this below, but I do think a majority of Devotion decks function best with one ore more tutors...it is just a matter of what fits best for the chosen style of Devotion deck given the current Meta you play in.
I know this has become quite close to my Garruk Green Deck* from a few pages back. This, however, is just where tuning took me.
For reference to the newer members here...on page 235 I present the idea of "Garruk Green". The idea was simple (can't claim it was some crazy interaction, etc.)...they had recently changed removed the Walker Uniqueness Rule so I was excited (as someone who tends to enjoy Planeswalkers) to play Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I had tried builds with Garruk, Primal Hunter and Garruk, Relentless (and both were good); but did not realize just how amazing Garruk COB could be in tandem with Garruk Wildspeaker until I put them together.
Almost immediately Rendroc (who had also helped tune the G/W Walker deck before this) jumped on board and began testing and tuning as well. This was invaluable in the fine-tuning of the deck to get it to the point it is today. I consider the deck just as much Rendroc's as mine where "ownership" is concerned. In honesty, I consider all decks to be "owned" by our entire community (and ownership in the end is unimportant)...but there are instances where people always question ownership (as can be seen by Humans and Lantern Control)...and I believe early tuning and play/championing of a deck is just as important as the first to present the idea...Regardless, the evolution of the deck continues with tiny but important changes occurring over the next 12-15 pages). You don't really have to read the reasoning behind many of our choices; but Rendroc and I generally stay within 4-5 cards of one another.
I tend to try out and post multiple ideas/archetypes. Basically, if someone has an idea, wants to know about an interaction, etc. I will try to brew with it. I feel like this is part of the function of an OP. The OP (in my opinion) should have some form of experience with as many different types of the deck as possible (so they can knowledgeably discuss each build and at minimum maintain discussion with those wishing to play each type of deck). Despite this; when playing competitively, I've had success mainly with three different builds: (1) Walker Combo, (2) G/W Walkers, and (3) Garruk Green. I've had a lot of success with my recent "Interactive Devotion" deck...however it has become enough like my "Garruk Green" build that they are close to one in the same (so I kind of consider it "Interactive Garruk Green").
This, however, reminded me of the items I think are extremely important to Devotion in the Current Modern Meta. I tend to bring up one or more of these every few weeks; but just in my recent tuning and seeing the evolution of this deck...I really felt it was important to point out the following items that I believe make a "viable" Green Devotion list. Obviously, the appropriate Ramp package is important; but beyond this the other three "Core Elements" I've found (for me at least) are:
1. Card Advantage/Draw - This is something I tend to over-post about. I won't go super in-depth like I do in other posts...but our primary sources of value/advantage are:
(a) Card draw - cards that simply draw a card. Generally these need to be permanents that draw one or more cards/replace themselves.
(b) Permanents that create other permanents - Whisperwood, Wolfbriar, etc.
(c) Planeswalkers - these are my favorite example of course. They are little "spell engines".
(d) Mana-sinks - These function somewhat similar to walkers in the sense that you can "cast" extra spells each turn...but these cost mana to trigger.
2. Tutors/Digging - I think most Devotion decks require some level of "Smoothing" to operate. This is true of all Ramp decks; but given the fact that Nykthos can create absurd amounts of mana quickly; it is important that we can smooth our curves to spend tons of mana when we have it, and less when we don't. Obviously, mana sinks also helps smooth things; but I do think tutors allow us to both smooth our draws AND interact with the opponent when necessary. Tutors bridge the "value" and "interactive" portions of most Devotion decks. Cards like Oath of Nissa, Chord of Calling, Summoner's Pact, Primal Command, Eldritch Evolution, Collected Company, Genesis Hydra, and Tooth and Nail all play this role in differing extents/situations. There are others of course, but the point is that Devotion decks have a large subset of Tutors to choose from.
3. Interaction - Because devotion requires time to "Set up" the board (even though this is often only 2-3 turns); we generally are a turn 4-5 deck. Devotion can be built to be lightning fast; and most Devotion decks have a "God Hand" or two that can "go off" by turn 3. In general, however, Devotion Decks are between 1/2 - 1 full turn slower than the fastest decks in the format. This often means that most (not all) Devotion decks will require some form of interaction. We are blessed to have many options in green to deal with pretty much every permanent there is between Acdic Slime, Primal CommandPolukranos, World Eater, Reclamation Sage, Beast Within, etc...however the recent addition of Walking Ballista went a long way to helping with "smaller creature" based match ups (and go wide match ups). I have always been a sucker for Karn Liberated as it works as both a win-con (a turn 3 and even turn 4 Karn will often win a game) and a "catch all" answer to permanents (as well as a few cards in hand). Adding another color, however, will often shore up any additional issues. I've found White and Red to be the best options for "answers"; but black and blue both have their own packages that are quite sufficient as well.
The way I have found success in Devotion generally has been by finding the perfect balance between Ramp, Card Advantage, Tutors, and Interaction. To be honest, the majority of lists I've seen as of late all look really good...and many are getting closer and closer in terms of their "structure" (even if a few cards differ or they utilize a different tutor, etc.). I think this is a promising thing!
As I said, however, this is what works for me. There are a million ways to skin a Devotion cat (and I can't even pretend to know them all). This is just something I have seen both in testing and in recent lists from a good portion of the community. Just thought it was interesting and worth discussion/repeating.
I do have a write up outlining things I learned over the last few dozen match ups that I will post later today as well...I hope any of this helps. I need to write Rendroc as well to see what the best form of Competitive Games are on MTGO. The more we can post results there, the better!
I played 3 rounds of Modern yesterday, and went 0-3 (...).
Storm 1-2, Esper Delve 1-2, Grishoalbrand 0-2
Takeaways:
The Esper Delve player commented on how problematic Carnage Tyrant and Whisperwood Elemental were. If he didn't have the Supreme Verdict for the dino then I believe it would have been a swift victory, and the comment on Whisperwood was "it's like a planeswalker, end step make a 2/2". I have to agree!
Speaking of which, I feel 1 or 2 Carnage Tyrants is a good number. They put big pressure on the opponent, but I found that if you don't get to 6 mana in time, well, they're too slow. They also don't help beat non-interactive decks (such as the Storm/Grishoalbrand matchups that I faced)
Courser of Kruphix filtering draws as usual. You don't always hit a land (obviously), but when you do it feels great
Ruric Thar was strong, but I noticed he often came down slightly too late. Since the red I am splashing is very light and I don't yet own any Blood Moons, I will pick up some Temple Gardens and try out a variation of Curdbros' GW approach.
Fliers as still a problem, as always.
Abundance is quite (very) bad. I only played it once out of all the times I drew it, and then all it did was show my opponent what I drew for the turn (I got "lucky" that the top of my deck was always what I wanted!). However, I have come to learn from the experience that Garruk, Caller of Beasts might be the answer I am looking for (to the problem of ramp - threat balance). A pseudo-Harmonize with 2 devotion is exactly the top deck that would be great for all kinds of green devotion decks.
One issue with devotion - or perhaps it is my playstyle - was that I found myself taking too long to setup (4-5 turns), or if I had enough mana on turn 4 then I hadn't put down a big creature to start swinging with the turn before. Thus I will be lowering the curve slightly, and we will see the return of Polukranos.
Arbor Colossus is a little narrow but I found that it was good vs. Jeskai Tempo (I played them before the rounds started). It can come down 1 or even 2 turns before a Hornet Queen, and often the opponent won't have that many fliers that you need a whole squad (though I realise the bees do threaten a kill with Garruk's Overrun). I will personally continue to test him vs. the Queen.
I was surprised at how many decks fear a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze.
Another card to consider is Sigarda, Heron's Grace. Her other self, Host of Herons, is usually the pick, and it wouldn't be too bad in this deck, but if you're looking for a token maker to pump up your Overruns and some tech against Storm, she definitely something to consider.
Most importantly, she can be tutored with Pact.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Another card to consider is Sigarda, Heron's Grace. Her other self, Host of Herons, is usually the pick, and it wouldn't be too bad in this deck, but if you're looking for a token maker to pump up your Overruns and some tech against Storm, she definitely something to consider.
Most importantly, she can be tutored with Pact.
I like this idea...especially in Decks playing Pact. The speed of Leyline is great but (a) 5-mana is not super tough for us to hit, (b) it has a lot of value outside of the “you have hexproof” clause.
Cool idea! May not be the greatest use against Storm; but well worth addition to our sideboard options for multiple matchups...can you imagine if it said “a graveyard”
I started testing the Pact/Craterhoof package again tonight (to see if the green cards alone were enough interaction when paired with Karn, etc.)
I do wish the new 12-drop could have been more impactful/powerful (as that would have been awesome with Garruk COB).
Another card to consider is Sigarda, Heron's Grace. Her other self, Host of Herons, is usually the pick, and it wouldn't be too bad in this deck, but if you're looking for a token maker to pump up your Overruns and some tech against Storm, she definitely something to consider.
True, well that's why Eidolon and Ruric Thar are much better.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I took a break from magic and am trying to get back into it with a green ramp deck.
however my mind is stuck between running the lists I've seen in your previous posts and playing it like a ramp wolf run deck.
this is what I've built so far that feels like i'm following the standard build of the ramp decks, maybe someone can tell me where my list is going wrong.
21 lands, 3 nyx and 1 wolf run included, couple fetches and 2 stompingground among the 21.
I put bonfire of the damned into the deck as a local meta choice, I face a lot of affinity and collected company style decks.
I was recently looking at firespout thinking it might be managable to turn the ground wipe on and off, certainly seems fun to wipe out lingering souls and leave my mana dorks alive. probably doesn't work as good for a one sider wipe as bonfire though.
He didn't include Chord in the deck but I wonder if a decent version can be made with Chord of Calling and Nykthos.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
hmm....this is really something to think about it.
Ok, some Random Thoughts
X is in a devotion Deck most of the time a good choice. Thats are high scalable cards.
Rosheen Meanderer passed the vanilla test with 4/4 for 4 . Fight with the (better) Garruk in the same Slot. But why not both in the Deck ?
More Sheanigans with permanents untappers could be very funny like Kiora's Follower . That's 8 alone with Rosheen (maybe only winMore). more targets for the Follower are Nykthos, UtopiaSpawl and sometimes a creature
Chord of Calling - good call . Has Xaaaand, your X Creatures are cheap searchable targets. X=0 for the Walking Ballista Most of our X creature's are dying by enetering the battlefield with Chord of Calling
@CurdBros Genesis Hydra ! (For those who didn't know, thats his Pet Card for a long time)
Could be a very insane list, but could it be faster as the other Devotion Deck? i think not (at the moment). SaffronOlive has buying time with BloodMoon
This list looks like a fine starting place. I've found 3 Witness a bit much when I'm not running Primal Command; 2 works better in many places. Likewise, Bonfire is very powerful, but not a card you want in your opener; 2-3 is probably better. Finally, you'll have some difficulty hitting Delerium for Traverse, so you might prefer a different tutor.
So mtggoldfish's recent Against the Odds deck is similar to a devotion deck, just without Nykthos. The main card in the deck is Rosheen Meanderer. ...
Interesting. It seems quite different than ours. One thing I really like is containing lots of mana in a single card; having that card be a decent size creature is a nice bonus.
Their biggest advantage is that they can play an absurd amount of creature removal in Bolt, Bonfire, Banefire, Hydras, and Ballista.
4x Blood Moon MD isn't going to work with Nykthos, but that's not the end of the world.
Agree with most of this. The problem with X cards is they're often quite bad at X=1 or X=2.
One of the things I'm thinking about is ways to make the low-end more robust, while scaling into the high end. I've lost a bunch of games recently to not drawing enough land, but I'm really hesitant to add much more without doing something about the abundance of mana producers. 4-mana seems a sweet spot for the deck, generally. The idea of redesigning so everything is 4-or-less, but scales with Meanderer is kinda cool.
Biggest misgiving: Wolfbriar does not work with Meanderer.
I've been searching Gatherer for good XXX spells to cast with Rosheen Meanderer. They found most of the good ones already, but here's what I found noteworthy (includes what was played in the decklist):
Bonfire of the Damned: sometimes played as sideboard tech, now could be played maindeck to shore up some matchups (and fliers!)
Banefire: sideboard technology vs. Ux control (or just Blue in general)
Nissa, Steward of Elements: something with high upside, and not useless at low X numbers. Biggest issue is it would clash (read: nonbo s) with the other X spells, so if you chose to play this planeswalker then you could only really play Walking Ballista alongside her (because Ballista is the best XX card).
Uncage the Menagerie: one tap of the Meanderer and you can search for four 4 CMC creatures. Not bad! Also not useless at low X numbers (note: it cannot search Ballista!)
Commune with Lava: I would say it's quite bad, but it would give us something to do at instant speed, which we rarely have.
Chord of Calling: a very nice option, and Meanderer would allow you to find a >=4 CMC creature at instand speed. Perhaps you could grab a Polukranos at end step to monstrous on your own turn.
Genesis Hydra: completely nonbos with all the other XX cards (except Polukranos).
Essentially it comes down to finding the best few (assuming you more than 1 XX card, otherwise Rosheen is kinda pointless) XXX spells and playing them in a semi-standard devotion shell, or throwing in a copy in a completely standard build to scale better to the late game as @MirageJenius has pointed out was something that we could aim to do by playing cards like Karametra's Acolyte (I think Meanderer is much better as it has a good 4/4 body). Here's the best I could come up with as a starting point:
This list looks like a fine starting place. I've found 3 Witness a bit much when I'm not running Primal Command; 2 works better in many places. Likewise, Bonfire is very powerful, but not a card you want in your opener; 2-3 is probably better. Finally, you'll have some difficulty hitting Delerium for Traverse, so you might prefer a different tutor.
the more I add walking ballista or another planeswalker it feels like delirium becomes more possible.
==============
on another question of mine,
whats the consensus on playing land cards like Gruul Turf along with explore, fetching them with primeval titan feels like i'm getting an extra land with utopia sprawl already on it.
Another card that I came across today and got me thinking a little is Leyline of Lifeforce.
My buddy built a pretty good white devotion list that has Leyline of Sanctity, and he can have some very explosive starts with the free devotion, not to mention white Leyline is really good right now, and by far the best Leyline.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
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I tried to brew a tiny bit with Shaman of the Forgotten Ways (as it was a good Woodland Bellower target I thought...but never truly tested it. The idea is really cool! I was always a little worried direct damage could kill me...but now that we have access to it via Walking Ballista it may be even a better idea! Let me know how it goes! I think the idea is there though.
I'll also try out a singleton Abundance but I feel as though everyone's conclusions are 99.9% correct and justified; it's just a case of me having to see how bad it is for myself!
I'll be on the lookout for an Arbor Colossus as well, offering a good way to deal with fliers, a nice mana sink and 3 devotion (as opposed to Dragonlord Atarka's 1 devotion, though it is probably the better card). I believe the giant was considered in very early builds (I once read this thread from back to front!) Polukranos is probably better, I'm just more interested in Reach, since it means that the colossus can semi deal with fliers as soon as it comes down, so you don't have to worry about not having enough mana for monstrous unlike with Polu.
Thoughts on Atzocan Archer (MB or SB)? Very good in the mirror match haha
And the decklist request:
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Acidic Slime
3x Carnage Tyrant
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2x Garruk Relentless
Enchantments (6)
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Oath of Nissa
Instants (3)
3x Summoner's Pact
Lands (21)
7x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Blood Moon
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Creeping Corrosion
2x Avalanche Riders
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Thragtusk
1x Hornet Queen
@Gruul_Me_Harder
It still actually packs a wallop since you should have devotion from other sources aside from the creatures since you do play a devotion build. They get 4 Primalcrux at most with no other devotion pump while yours get pump from sources like priveleged position, Kiora or Garruk, Utopia Vow, Oath of Nissa and other non creature stuff. Thanks too for the update. This means I need creature bounce in the build for UG Devotion. And when the effect wears out, if you had a Walking Ballista in play with full tank, you can snipe away the remaining life.
I also came across Kira Glass Spinner as spot removal tech for us for whatever build for Devotion and I want you guys to try that out.
@GarfieldKlon
I'm going to tinker with a UG deck with 3 Ruric Thar the Unbowed plus Mirror Gallery and Genesis Wave. If opponent casts any non-creature spell, kaput in style, If Kira Glass Pinner can keep blockers alive from spot removal, then 5 turns of grind out stall, Hello Emblem Octopussy. The Ocotbus also make great fodder for even 1 Primalcrux main deck plus 1 Mirrorweave as a defensive tech too and a spell like a Timmy Craterhoof Behemothitself.
And maybe put in some tech that makes dying creatures painful for the opponent. If the Overgrown Battlement-Sylvan Caryatid Wall mana dork build I'm putting together can stall aggro and get extra turn tricks or so, I'd like to have a UG devotion deck that consistently wins off the Kiora Master of Depths ulimtate ability. If not the Mirrorweave-Primalcrux option.
I like playing this deck, because I win so easily in so many games that I feel like I'm just on cruize control. I can sit back, relax, and stomp face.
CURRENT DECKLIST
// 24 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Walking Ballista
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
1 Hornet Queen
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Oath of Nissa
// 2 Instant
2 Summoner's Pact
// 21 Land
6 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple Garden
1 Misty Rainforest
// 6 Planeswalker
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Abrade
3 Blood Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
-1 Abrade SD
+1 Grafdigger's Cage SD
-
-1 Teeg SD
+1 Mindcensor
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I generally find Hornet Queen, Ruric Thar, and Atarka are pretty good answers to fliers and threats in their own right (in that order). The Colossus probably won't quite pass muster.
The Archer is a bit too limited in what it can remove. You'd really want some passive team-pump to fully exploit it. Primal Forcemage is a bit niche. But a Kessig, Rhonas, or Nylea with a ton of extra mana could certainly make it a respectable removal effect in the mid-late game.
I generally agree with you. Nissa VoZ isn't as strong here, though occasionally she turns a team of BTEs and Coursers into a respectable army. Eternal Witness often just gets played for value (most opponents have discard and removal), but it was also a card that just didn't seem especially strong in this build.
Mana sinks are great. The Chamaleon Colossus came back into the MD for that reason, and I also said Nissa VoZ is likely to become Rhonas, which is another great mana sink. I'm also huge fan of Wolfbriar; that and Polukranos are high on the list of cards that may replace Witness in this build.
I'd definitely want to keep at least one copy of Teeg somewhere. The card is just that good.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
After tuning this deck, I really found that when tuning decks, I always end up getting close to the same place...Here is the current list I've been playing:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Elvish Visionary
3x Carven Caryatid
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Acidic Slime
1x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2x Walking Ballista
3x Genesis Hydra
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2x Karn Liberated
Other (7)
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Eldritch Evolution
Land (21)
7x Green Fetch Land
6x Forest
2x Temple Garden
1x Brushland
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Gavony Township
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x Thalia’s Lancers
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Hornet Queen
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Engineered Explosives
The only potential changes are:
(A) switching out Thalia's Lancers for Thought-Knot Seer in the main. I go back and forth. TKS is “generally” better; but Lancers has been a great way to turn Eldritch Evolution into a Elesh Norn, Karn, Garruk, Nykthos, etc...so until I feel like I need another sideboard slot I likely will keep it. It also is great to come in when bringing in “Bullet Legendaries” which I have a good amount of...
(b) trying Garruk Relentless in place of a third copy of Eldritch Evolution. Not enough data to know which is preferable yet.
(c) I am also currently deciding on the best Tutor...Chord of Calling and Eldritch Evolution is a surprisingly difficult decision. I will provide another post where I discuss the differences between the two (i.e. which is better from behind, ahead, pros/cons of each, etc.)
Also, if I feel the meta will allow it; I could also utilize the the Summoner's Pact + Craterhoof Behemoth package (this is what I had before). If I can get away with a little less interaction and where metas permit...I play this package as it goes extremely well with Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I can provide the decklist; however it is extremely similar to the above (swapping out Carven Caryatid for Courser, Elesh Norn for Craterhoof, and Garruk Relentless for Hornet Queen)...just a slightly more linear approach to the same-style deck. I discuss this below, but I do think a majority of Devotion decks function best with one ore more tutors...it is just a matter of what fits best for the chosen style of Devotion deck given the current Meta you play in.
I know this has become quite close to my Garruk Green Deck* from a few pages back. This, however, is just where tuning took me.
For reference to the newer members here...on page 235 I present the idea of "Garruk Green". The idea was simple (can't claim it was some crazy interaction, etc.)...they had recently changed removed the Walker Uniqueness Rule so I was excited (as someone who tends to enjoy Planeswalkers) to play Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I had tried builds with Garruk, Primal Hunter and Garruk, Relentless (and both were good); but did not realize just how amazing Garruk COB could be in tandem with Garruk Wildspeaker until I put them together.
Almost immediately Rendroc (who had also helped tune the G/W Walker deck before this) jumped on board and began testing and tuning as well. This was invaluable in the fine-tuning of the deck to get it to the point it is today. I consider the deck just as much Rendroc's as mine where "ownership" is concerned. In honesty, I consider all decks to be "owned" by our entire community (and ownership in the end is unimportant)...but there are instances where people always question ownership (as can be seen by Humans and Lantern Control)...and I believe early tuning and play/championing of a deck is just as important as the first to present the idea...Regardless, the evolution of the deck continues with tiny but important changes occurring over the next 12-15 pages). You don't really have to read the reasoning behind many of our choices; but Rendroc and I generally stay within 4-5 cards of one another.
I tend to try out and post multiple ideas/archetypes. Basically, if someone has an idea, wants to know about an interaction, etc. I will try to brew with it. I feel like this is part of the function of an OP. The OP (in my opinion) should have some form of experience with as many different types of the deck as possible (so they can knowledgeably discuss each build and at minimum maintain discussion with those wishing to play each type of deck). Despite this; when playing competitively, I've had success mainly with three different builds: (1) Walker Combo, (2) G/W Walkers, and (3) Garruk Green. I've had a lot of success with my recent "Interactive Devotion" deck...however it has become enough like my "Garruk Green" build that they are close to one in the same (so I kind of consider it "Interactive Garruk Green").
This, however, reminded me of the items I think are extremely important to Devotion in the Current Modern Meta. I tend to bring up one or more of these every few weeks; but just in my recent tuning and seeing the evolution of this deck...I really felt it was important to point out the following items that I believe make a "viable" Green Devotion list. Obviously, the appropriate Ramp package is important; but beyond this the other three "Core Elements" I've found (for me at least) are:
(a) Card draw - cards that simply draw a card. Generally these need to be permanents that draw one or more cards/replace themselves.
(b) Permanents that create other permanents - Whisperwood, Wolfbriar, etc.
(c) Planeswalkers - these are my favorite example of course. They are little "spell engines".
(d) Mana-sinks - These function somewhat similar to walkers in the sense that you can "cast" extra spells each turn...but these cost mana to trigger.
2. Tutors/Digging - I think most Devotion decks require some level of "Smoothing" to operate. This is true of all Ramp decks; but given the fact that Nykthos can create absurd amounts of mana quickly; it is important that we can smooth our curves to spend tons of mana when we have it, and less when we don't. Obviously, mana sinks also helps smooth things; but I do think tutors allow us to both smooth our draws AND interact with the opponent when necessary. Tutors bridge the "value" and "interactive" portions of most Devotion decks. Cards like Oath of Nissa, Chord of Calling, Summoner's Pact, Primal Command, Eldritch Evolution, Collected Company, Genesis Hydra, and Tooth and Nail all play this role in differing extents/situations. There are others of course, but the point is that Devotion decks have a large subset of Tutors to choose from.
3. Interaction - Because devotion requires time to "Set up" the board (even though this is often only 2-3 turns); we generally are a turn 4-5 deck. Devotion can be built to be lightning fast; and most Devotion decks have a "God Hand" or two that can "go off" by turn 3. In general, however, Devotion Decks are between 1/2 - 1 full turn slower than the fastest decks in the format. This often means that most (not all) Devotion decks will require some form of interaction. We are blessed to have many options in green to deal with pretty much every permanent there is between Acdic Slime, Primal Command Polukranos, World Eater, Reclamation Sage, Beast Within, etc...however the recent addition of Walking Ballista went a long way to helping with "smaller creature" based match ups (and go wide match ups). I have always been a sucker for Karn Liberated as it works as both a win-con (a turn 3 and even turn 4 Karn will often win a game) and a "catch all" answer to permanents (as well as a few cards in hand). Adding another color, however, will often shore up any additional issues. I've found White and Red to be the best options for "answers"; but black and blue both have their own packages that are quite sufficient as well.
The way I have found success in Devotion generally has been by finding the perfect balance between Ramp, Card Advantage, Tutors, and Interaction. To be honest, the majority of lists I've seen as of late all look really good...and many are getting closer and closer in terms of their "structure" (even if a few cards differ or they utilize a different tutor, etc.). I think this is a promising thing!
As I said, however, this is what works for me. There are a million ways to skin a Devotion cat (and I can't even pretend to know them all). This is just something I have seen both in testing and in recent lists from a good portion of the community. Just thought it was interesting and worth discussion/repeating.
I do have a write up outlining things I learned over the last few dozen match ups that I will post later today as well...I hope any of this helps. I need to write Rendroc as well to see what the best form of Competitive Games are on MTGO. The more we can post results there, the better!
Storm 1-2, Esper Delve 1-2, Grishoalbrand 0-2
Takeaways:
That being said, another list:
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Walking Ballista
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Acidic Slime
2x Carnage Tyrant
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk Relentless
1x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Enchantments (6)
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Oath of Nissa
Instants (3)
3x Summoner's Pact
Lands (21)
7x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Sentinel Totem
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Thragtusk
1x Arbor Colossus
Most importantly, she can be tutored with Pact.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I like this idea...especially in Decks playing Pact. The speed of Leyline is great but (a) 5-mana is not super tough for us to hit, (b) it has a lot of value outside of the “you have hexproof” clause.
Cool idea! May not be the greatest use against Storm; but well worth addition to our sideboard options for multiple matchups...can you imagine if it said “a graveyard”
I started testing the Pact/Craterhoof package again tonight (to see if the green cards alone were enough interaction when paired with Karn, etc.)
I do wish the new 12-drop could have been more impactful/powerful (as that would have been awesome with Garruk COB).
I considered Sigarda, Heron's Grace except that Grapeshot is multiple single target shots (shoot her first, then the player), so Sigarda is essentially "gain 5".
Borborygmos Enraged is also multiple single target cases, making Leyline of Sanctity, Witchbane Orb and Orbs of Warding really the only options to give yourself Hexproof.
If she gave herself hexproof, then boy are we talking!
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
however my mind is stuck between running the lists I've seen in your previous posts and playing it like a ramp wolf run deck.
this is what I've built so far that feels like i'm following the standard build of the ramp decks, maybe someone can tell me where my list is going wrong.
21 lands, 3 nyx and 1 wolf run included, couple fetches and 2 stompingground among the 21.
4 utopia sprawl
4 arbor elf
4 birds of paradise
4 garruk wildspeaker
3 eternal witness
this next part of my list is what I thought was following the formula, but my choices might be mistakes,
4 traverse the ulvenwald
4 chord of calling
3 kitchen finks
4 bonfire of the damned
1 primeval titan
1 Polukranos, world eater
1 ishkanah, grafwidow
1 craterhoof behemoth
1 hornet queen
I put bonfire of the damned into the deck as a local meta choice, I face a lot of affinity and collected company style decks.
I was recently looking at firespout thinking it might be managable to turn the ground wipe on and off, certainly seems fun to wipe out lingering souls and leave my mana dorks alive. probably doesn't work as good for a one sider wipe as bonfire though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyCf-9I7eI0&t=0s
He didn't include Chord in the deck but I wonder if a decent version can be made with Chord of Calling and Nykthos.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Ok, some Random Thoughts
aaaand, your X Creatures are cheap searchable targets. X=0 for the Walking BallistaMost of our X creature's are dying by enetering the battlefield with Chord of CallingThis list looks like a fine starting place. I've found 3 Witness a bit much when I'm not running Primal Command; 2 works better in many places. Likewise, Bonfire is very powerful, but not a card you want in your opener; 2-3 is probably better. Finally, you'll have some difficulty hitting Delerium for Traverse, so you might prefer a different tutor.
Interesting. It seems quite different than ours. One thing I really like is containing lots of mana in a single card; having that card be a decent size creature is a nice bonus.
Their biggest advantage is that they can play an absurd amount of creature removal in Bolt, Bonfire, Banefire, Hydras, and Ballista.
4x Blood Moon MD isn't going to work with Nykthos, but that's not the end of the world.
Agree with most of this. The problem with X cards is they're often quite bad at X=1 or X=2.
One of the things I'm thinking about is ways to make the low-end more robust, while scaling into the high end. I've lost a bunch of games recently to not drawing enough land, but I'm really hesitant to add much more without doing something about the abundance of mana producers. 4-mana seems a sweet spot for the deck, generally. The idea of redesigning so everything is 4-or-less, but scales with Meanderer is kinda cool.
Biggest misgiving: Wolfbriar does not work with Meanderer.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Essentially it comes down to finding the best few (assuming you more than 1 XX card, otherwise Rosheen is kinda pointless) XXX spells and playing them in a semi-standard devotion shell, or throwing in a copy in a completely standard build to scale better to the late game as @MirageJenius has pointed out was something that we could aim to do by playing cards like Karametra's Acolyte (I think Meanderer is much better as it has a good 4/4 body). Here's the best I could come up with as a starting point:
4x Walking Ballista
4x Arbor Elf
2x Genesis Hydra
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Carven Caryatid
1x Eternal Witness
3x Rosheen Meanderer
2x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Primeval Titan
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Hornet Queen
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk Relentless
Enchantments (6)
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Oath of Nissa
Instants (3)
3x Chord of Calling
Lands (21)
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
7x Forest
4x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x By Force
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Sudden Shock
2x Blood Moon
2x Banefire
2x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Acidic Slime
would you cut the traverse the ulvenwald for primal command?
the more I add walking ballista or another planeswalker it feels like delirium becomes more possible.
==============
on another question of mine,
whats the consensus on playing land cards like Gruul Turf along with explore, fetching them with primeval titan feels like i'm getting an extra land with utopia sprawl already on it.
My buddy built a pretty good white devotion list that has Leyline of Sanctity, and he can have some very explosive starts with the free devotion, not to mention white Leyline is really good right now, and by far the best Leyline.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC