The nombo between Wrath and TKS doesn't matter because TKS is just meant to permanently eat cards. It's really hard to beat Eldrazi when they eat your win condition. Like when I was playing the old list with Mindslaver and Thopter Foundry, I lost both of them in one game to TKS and I basically ran out of win conditions. Sometimes you cast TKS against a deck like Abzan Company, hit an important card they were holding on to, and get such a huge advantage off it.
I said I wasn't sure about my particular list because I'm still testing it and finding certain cards are ineffective. The differences between our lists are very minimal though: I play Emrakul instead of Elspeth and the Sphinx's Rev and Remands over the Wall of Omens. So it's basically just the meta decision that I want better late game and don't see creature decks as a big enough problem. I'm what, 6 for 7 in my last 7 games with the deck? Granted, the level of play I'm facing is comparatively low (i.e. I'm significantly better than my opponents). I wish I had good testing partners to fine tune the list with.
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep two Plains with blue cards on the draw. I cast zero spells that game. I actually drew a Wrath when I needed it, but it was Supreme Verdict while I had no blue mana. Game 2 I mull to 6, keep a hand that basically only has Gifts on 4, and lose the game without being able to go off. These were not competitive games, basically my deck just fizzling to itself from bad draws.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Infect:
Game 1 I mull to 6, keep an mediocre hand, draw nothing but lands. No Gifts, no removal of any sort. Game 2 I keep 5 lands + Remand after a mulligan and draw into counters but no interaction. I drew one Path but it got blanked and drew a Ghost Quarter for his Inkmoth. I actually had a Scry from Condescend where I kept Dispel + Elesh Norn on top (in that order) with Map in hand, planning to cast Map on my following turn, then sacrifice it after drawing Elesh Norn to get Tron to cast it. My opponent topdecked a Nature's Claim to destroy my Map and that was that. Once again, rather abysmal draws from my deck.
Record: 0-2
Round 3 vs Jund:
Game 1 my opponent went Bob into Scooze and I cast Engineered Explosives for 2. When he cast both again, I used Academy Ruins to recur it and cast it again after eating some damage for one turn. When he started casting Lilianas, using EE for 3 was really good, it helped kill two Lilianas and really keep me in the game. I was very happy about it. I eventually resolved Elesh Norn into an empty board and he had no removal for it, Norn + Colonnade was enough. Game 2 my opponent had early disruption and then turn 3 Liliana. I didn't really have answers for it and when he got to start attacking with his Raging Ravine, it was too late. He had an Abrupt Decay for my Signet that kept me from activating Colonnade to kill Liliana, and I got put into awkward positions needing to play GQ for Raging Raving and coloured mana to activate Colonnade. He eventually killed me with Raging Ravine and land + Bolt as the last two cards in his hand to seal it right there. Game three he got an early Liliana but I got early Tron and cast Sundering Titan into Liliana. While Lili answered it, I was left with Tron + Colonnade into his 0 lands after the Sundering Titan, and I knew I'd have time to find stuff. I ended up topdecking Ugin and that ended the game.
Record: 1-2
Not a good showing overall, but also a lot of things outside of my control. Bad draws happen and this is one of the downsides of the deck. It's possible I should mulligan more aggressively, but somehow keeping 4 and 5 card hands don't seem like winning plays to me.
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep two Plains with blue cards on the draw. I cast zero spells that game. I actually drew a Wrath when I needed it, but it was Supreme Verdict while I had no blue mana. Game 2 I mull to 6, keep a hand that basically only has Gifts on 4, and lose the game without being able to go off. These were not competitive games, basically my deck just fizzling to itself from bad draws.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Infect:
Game 1 I mull to 6, keep an mediocre hand, draw nothing but lands. No Gifts, no removal of any sort. Game 2 I keep 5 lands + Remand after a mulligan and draw into counters but no interaction. I drew one Path but it got blanked and drew a Ghost Quarter for his Inkmoth. I actually had a Scry from Condescend where I kept Dispel + Elesh Norn on top (in that order) with Map in hand, planning to cast Map on my following turn, then sacrifice it after drawing Elesh Norn to get Tron to cast it. My opponent topdecked a Nature's Claim to destroy my Map and that was that. Once again, rather abysmal draws from my deck.
Record: 0-2
Round 3 vs Jund:
Game 1 my opponent went Bob into Scooze and I cast Engineered Explosives for 2. When he cast both again, I used Academy Ruins to recur it and cast it again after eating some damage for one turn. When he started casting Lilianas, using EE for 3 was really good, it helped kill two Lilianas and really keep me in the game. I was very happy about it. I eventually resolved Elesh Norn into an empty board and he had no removal for it, Norn + Colonnade was enough. Game 2 my opponent had early disruption and then turn 3 Liliana. I didn't really have answers for it and when he got to start attacking with his Raging Ravine, it was too late. He had an Abrupt Decay for my Signet that kept me from activating Colonnade to kill Liliana, and I got put into awkward positions needing to play GQ for Raging Raving and coloured mana to activate Colonnade. He eventually killed me with Raging Ravine and land + Bolt as the last two cards in his hand to seal it right there. Game three he got an early Liliana but I got early Tron and cast Sundering Titan into Liliana. While Lili answered it, I was left with Tron + Colonnade into his 0 lands after the Sundering Titan, and I knew I'd have time to find stuff. I ended up topdecking Ugin and that ended the game.
Record: 1-2
Not a good showing overall, but also a lot of things outside of my control. Bad draws happen and this is one of the downsides of the deck. It's possible I should mulligan more aggressively, but somehow keeping 4 and 5 card hands don't seem like winning plays to me.
Tough luck man, not sure a control deck in modern has the luxury of those kind of Mulligan's either. Anyway that field makes me feel like wall of omens would be good, atleast it proactive for when you fall behind....? I'm also a fan of remand but have been generally disappointed with those cards as to much has to go right usually for them to feel great and your usually ahead anyways when you play it on the play...:(
The list yesterday had 3 Condescend and 2 Remands. I find Scry 2 is often as good as drawing a card when card selection matters. We're a deck that has a lot of dead draws from various lands, removal in control/combo matchups, Signets/Maps, etc. I don't really feel like it was a lack of proactive options, it was more so just being too far behind or not drawing key cards.
Round 1 I played against Abzan CoCo. Renegade Rallier actually seems very good in their deck, being able to recur combo pieces seems like an ideal use for that card. Anyway, game 1 I cast double Wrath and eventually when I played Ugin he just scooped. Game 2 I mulled to 5, kept one land + Signet on the draw, he combo'd me on turn 3 while I had one land in play. Game 3 was a better game than the second but I lost it after missing 6 outs in back to back turns (triple Wrath or the Tron piece to cast Ugin).
Round 2 I played against RG Tron and we all know how that went. Game 1 I got turn 3 Karn'd on the draw without a blue source available (I had Signet as the blue source) for my Condescend. It was not close. Game I Ghost Quartered his Tron land on turn 3 but he found another to get Tron up. He Sowing Salted that I countered, but a Karn into Newlamog into Newlamog was too much, I scooped when he showed me the second Newlamog.
I left at this point, unlucky day. Draw poorly into the worst matchup. Might change the board to be more for an open field and see how that goes. There was a lot of variety today including Titan Breach, Amulet Titan, RG Tron, Dredge, Abzan CoCo, and Death Shadow Aggro.
Hey all I've been a fan of this deck since I read Corbin Hosler's article on it a while back and was considering putting it together to play. Some questions I did have though include:
How does this deck fair in the current meta? Or more specifically against things like B/G Tron, Lantern, R/W Prison which are prevalent in my area
How much room for innovation does the deck have? I loved the complexity of combos like Grishoalbrand but the thing that turned me off the deck was its lack of interaction and room for creativity
More obviously I want to know if the deck can hold its own. As much as I value enjoying a deck I also want to win.
BG Tron is pretty abysmal, it's one of the worst matchups for the deck, and it's really quite bad. Lantern has been slightly unfavourable for me in testing, but most of the games feel really close. They also all remind me of Hearthstone fatigue mirrors since that's what it often comes down to. RW Prison is probably more okay since shutting off a colour with Iona can win a game, I admittedly haven't played that matchup (or if I have it was only once).
UW Gifts Tron has decent room to mess around with, I've seen lots of interesting builds. Part of the unexplored territory is finding builds that are closer to Mono U Tron, where the white is just a splash. Some people have tried non-Gifts variants, variants more focused on Tron that play Karns, etc.
In your meta specifically, not really sure, because you'll be losing to BG Tron a fair bit. I had to board an unreasonable amount of cards to get it to 50% post-board. I don't know what the Mono U Tron matchup vs BG Tron is, but probably still unfavourable for them. The issue is that all Tron decks play for the late game, but BG Tron gets there significantly faster. You basically get forced to answer turn 3 Karn or else the matchup gets too far out of hand and you can't amass enough mana in time. One thing I haven't tested was multiple copies of Ceremonious Rejection, which might be good in your meta. I don't know if that would solve issues in those matchups though.
Ok thanks for the advice, my meta isn't specifically made up of B/G Tron I just had questions about that one specifically as I feel this deck would be comfortable against Elves and Affinity which both of my mates play.
I was also considering other splashes (such as black) to help against faster aggro decks like Infect (obviously keeping it to spells that only require a single black) perhaps you've done testing that would rule this out as an option but I don't know. Or possibly other reanimation targets to help with certain matchups
Either way I feel confident that I'm not going to get bored of winning (or losing) the same way over and over again whilst playing this deck
EDIT: One other question I did have was what cards in the latest list you posted were meta calls (just so I understand the reasoning behind you running them)
Ok thanks for the advice, my meta isn't specifically made up of B/G Tron I just had questions about that one specifically as I feel this deck would be comfortable against Elves and Affinity which both of my mates play.
I was also considering other splashes (such as black) to help against faster aggro decks like Infect (obviously keeping it to spells that only require a single black) perhaps you've done testing that would rule this out as an option but I don't know. Or possibly other reanimation targets to help with certain matchups
Either way I feel confident that I'm not going to get bored of winning (or losing) the same way over and over again whilst playing this deck
EDIT: One other question I did have was what cards in the latest list you posted were meta calls (just so I understand the reasoning behind you running them)
This deck does great against both Elves and Affinity. Both of them need really good draws to win because you have lots of cards that just wreck them. Triple Wrath and Elesh Norn in the mainboard are great, and against Elves you also have Iona and Ugin. You lose games where they have good hands, I've certainly lost my fair share. It also depends on the skill level of the opponent for Affinity, I lost more games in MTGO Dailies than I did in paper.
I dislike splashing black for actual spells because it hurts the mana too much. When I tested it with just a light splash for Lingering Souls, I cut it after a day of testing, it was really bad and inconsistent. I run a single black dual I can fetch for now because it allows me to cast Engineered Explosives for 3 and sometimes Unburial Rites. When you're talking about playing 24 lands with half of them providing no colour, it's too hard to splash a third colour.
Other reanimation targets are fine, I had a Terastodon in my sideboard today for Tron, for example. You can run more or less anything as a reanimation target, it's all up to whether the card is good. You don't want to reanimate something like Wurmcoil for value, it's all about something that makes it difficult for your opponent to win or kill your creature, like Iona, Elesh Norn, Sundering Titan, or Terastodon.
The deck doesn't get boring quickly because of the flexibility it has and how it plays interesting games. The win conditions change depending on the matchup and you always have lots of options thanks to Gifts.
I wrote notes about my last list when I posted it. Nothing was particularly a meta call in the mainboard, the sideboard was me testing based on what people were playing. All you need to do for the board is jam some good blue/white cards that seem good against what you expect to play against.
So played again this week, I didn't 0-2 drop so that's good.
Round 1 vs Ad Nauseam:
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep a pretty mediocre hand. Thankfully, he casts Spoils of the Vault and domes himself for 20, it was really lucky. Game 2 he casts Silence on my end step, I counter it and then counter the Ad Nauseam he was hoping to freely cast. He then casts Ad Nauseam again the turn after, and with the Phyrexian Unlife in play the game ends. Game 3 he casts Ad Nauseam while I have only one counter and he had a Pact of Negation for it.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Affinity
Game 1 my opponent leads with a very solid opening hand but I very luckily draw into Wrath in time. It stalls the game out long enough for me to draw Gifts and win from Elesh Norn. Game 2 my opponent keeps a hand that's all in on his single Steel Overseer, which I path. He has no follow up, but neither do I. Eventually I have Hurkyl's Recall into Snapcaster Hurkyl's Recall to set him so far behind, and then eventually I draw and cast Elesh Norn.
Record: 1-1
Round 3 vs Revolt Zoo
Game 1 is a complete stomp for my opponent, my draw was bad, I had no idea what he was playing (his first time play the deck), and I lost very quickly (turn 4 while I was on the draw). In game 2 it was looking really grim while I was at one life, but I resolved Elesh Norn and then got the board into a favourable position with him just having a Narnam Renagade in play. He bricked a couple turns and then I drew into counters to stop any sort of Bolt he could have drawn. In the third game I Condescended his early Reckless Bushwacker to save a ton of life and then the game was just over from there, he never climbed back and I won very easily.
Record: 2-1
Round 4 vs Abzan CoCo
Game 1 went back and forth until I had Gifts for Elesh Norn. My opponent had the Fiend Hunter, but he scooped to Sundering Titan while I had mana to put Explosives on top and cast it for 3 to destroy the Fiend Hunter and wipe his board again. Game 2 my opponent kept a hand that went turn 3 Finks into turn 4 Redcap, that's way too slow against us. I had Purge for the Redcap and then a slew of counters and such going forward. My opponent cast Path on my Elesh Norn, but I had two Ugins in hand so when I got to 8 mana, the game ended there basically. I cleared the board, then ulted Ugin and put a second one into play. Unfortunately no Emrakul, but I didn't need it and he lost shortly after.
Record: 3-1
Only bad matchup was Ad Nauseam, which feels bad sometimes because they can win on your end step. It's like the Grishoalbrand matchup, too hard to counter everything when they play so many. I didn't have a Dispel this week so that's perhaps a card I may go back to playing a 1-of, maybe instead of the second Negate and split them.
I also played a game against Jund at one point, only relevant detail is that Explosives for 3 is a beating. I'm consistently impressed by how much work one black source is doing for Explosives. Sure, I've cast an Unburial Rites or two off the black mana, but honestly the Explosives keeps killing things like Liliana and it's fantastic.
It was the same deck I last posted just sideboard changes. I change up the sideboard every week based on what I anticipate the meta being. You know, certain people show up and others don't, people have been playing different decks lately, etc. It doesn't change the deck in any way other than just trying to be slightly better post-board in certain matchup.
Hello guys. I'm a returning player to Magic. I built a UW Gift Tron with a list a saw a few years back. I never read this thread until now, and if I repost something already discusses in the 105 pages before, my bad :). I did some changes to my list adapting to the new meta that I have around and to try some new things. First of all, I'm playing 2 copies of Planar Bridge, as an alternative of Gifts Ungiven. Also, I removed Snapcaster Mage to introduce Isochron Scepter, as this card helps me cast my spells when I don't have color fix; also letting me cast color spells with one Tron land (like Sol Ring) when I have Tron online and is a good companion for Rule of Law, which I also have in my main board. I also have Warping Wail in the mainboard, as it's a removal for some key creatures in the meta, counter for decks like Titanshift or Crumble to Dust, and lets me cast Scions to ramp when attached with Scepter. Into the Roil is a card that helps me interact with Planeswalkers, and it can be kicked to draw a card when casted from Scepter. My list basically relies on resolving Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to deal with the aggro decks, as it doesn't have any wraths.
After tested, my deck has real issues with mirror match with RG Tron, have good match with control decks like Jeskai Nahiri and combo decks (excluding Melira Company, which I haven't tested). With aggro decks can't really give a veredict, as I haven't faced many on my LGS. Any comments or suggestions let me know!
Your deck seems kind of all over the place. Rule of Law in the mainboard seems really strange to me, are you predicting some extremely heavy combo meta? It's good against decks like Storm and better than I've probably given it credit for against Ad Nauseam or Grishoalbrand, but mainboarding multiple copies seems strange. Honestly, if you're playing Isochron Scepter, Silence might just be better. If it were cheaper it might be okay because of that new Revolt Zoo deck, but the fact that they're going to combo off (i.e. chain multiple 2-drops) before you get to cast Rule of Law makes it not good.
Planar Bridge is a cool card but I wouldn't play multiple copies. At the point where you can activate it, you can probably just cast any threat you draw. One copy for Gifts utility seems fine (I don't know how good the card is, haven't tested it yet), but the second copy seems excessive.
I also don't like Isochron Scepter in the deck. You have 11 spells you can effectively imprint, but only four as far as diversity is concerned. Part of the issue with it is that you have to sacrifice and play worse cards to empower it. Warping Wail gives you useful utility but Path is just a better card. Into the Roil can be kicked, which is cool, but Repeal is better. You also simply can't play Condescend, which I like a lot. On top of that, playing it seems to have forced you to cut Wraths and Timely Reinforcements to make room, which I'm not so sure about. Even looking at your board, you're playing Candles' Glow instead of Timely to use with Isochron Scepter, which doesn't particularly strike me as good. I think when you finally play against aggro decks, your particular build is going to have trouble.
Hey, thanks for replying. I like the Silence idea. It's really cool thinking that it could be used with Scepter, and it is even way more effective against control decks, rather than Rule of Law, which it gives my opponent advantage. I was also thinking reducing the portal to one. At this moment I have like 7-8 cards that would need Tron online to be played in the early/mid-game. What do you think of the poor-man's Remand Unsubstantiate? I have my doubts thinking it doesn't give you card advantage, but it can even interact with uncounterable spells, and deals with board menaces. Gonna give your suggestions a go for next Tuesday's Modern night and see how it performs.
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Mostly Modern Player RBridgevineB RGR/G EldraziX UBlue MoonR UU/W TronW
First match RG Tron. I'm on the play. I get Tron online on third turn and drop Rule of Law and Scepter-Remand with signet. I control the match until I bring threats with portal. His Newlamog comes up too late and I end wining. Second game he smashes me with a third turn Karn, which I counter, but it comes down on next turn. Third match he mulligans to 5, takes up to turn 4 or 5 to get Tron online. We end up drawing 1-1.
Second match was Mono Black 8 rack. I manage to resolve a Rule of Law and later Scepter-Into the Roil. That way I control his Liliana and Racks, and I start kicking and drawing to avoid damage until I get Tron online. Ugin comes down to win the game. First game took too long we had 3 mins for second match. I win 1-0.
Third match was Jeskai Nahiri. First match I rush Tron and a Gift for threats. I end overwhelming him later with portal drop, and Iona comes to lock the game. Second match he draws all the hate, I try to answer but he ended up kiling me with Colonnade hits. Third match was up to my favor, as I resolve a Sundering Titan, he destroys it but ends getting behind. I don't have time then to finish him and we end up drawing 1-1.
The last match was Madcap Titanshift. First match I gift for Iona Green, then he resolves a Madcap Experiment, but I path his Platinum Emperior. The second match I ger Leyline miracle, but he finish me with Avenger of Zendikar. The last match I get Scepter-Wail, control him until he destroys it. By that moment I had too much power on board, and I ended up winning the game.
2 wins and 2 draws. But then again, not matchs against aggro decks.
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Mostly Modern Player RBridgevineB RGR/G EldraziX UBlue MoonR UU/W TronW
Isochron Scepter has this added benefit of being really good against RG Tron relative to how the matchup normally is. Whether it solves the matchup or not, I doubt, but it's still very solid. Of course, it matters whether you can activate it before Karn or not, so on the draw it's potentially abysmal.
I dislike Unsubstantiate as a card, but with Isochron Scepter it might be fine as a singleton. Again, it's part of this flexibility package you're playing because of the Scepter. You play worse but more flexible cards in order to shift power into the Scepter. So now your average card is worse, but Scepter becomes a better card. It all depends on how all-in you want to be on it. As an added plus, these random 1-ofs also power up Gifts. I've been moving away from powering up Gifts because it's the best card in the deck, but with 6-8 copies of it (counting Scepter as well), that might offset the shift because you draw more copies.
I would never have guessed that Rule of Law was for control decks. You're favoured in those matchups and in fact, your late game win condition is often casting multiple Gifts in a single turn. Rule of Law is really awkward to play with because neither person can do anything for fear of a single counter wrecking them. Like even if you manage to cast Gifts and find a win condition, you just get that win condition countered. It would be much better with Emrakul since it can't be countered, thereby giving you a way out of the deadlock situation. I think you lose in the long run because they have better Colonnade answers than you do.
As far as drawing goes, I imagine it's because you're new to the deck. Winning 1-0 vs 8-Rack but drawing 1-1 against Jeskai Nahiri strikes me as odd. I've finished all my 8-Rack games, and I've played a fair share of them. This isn't to knock you or make you feel bad, but you probably need to be a little quicker with your decisions.
Game 1 I draw the Elesh Norn so I just stall the game out. Some removal and counters to draw the game out until I Wrath the board. I eventually draw enough lands, resolve Elesh Norn, and win several turns later. I had other ways to close it faster but I played safe with such a huge lead and multiple answers in my hand. In game 2, no such luck and I just die a slow death. Pithing Needle (in my board anticipating Lantern) was good on his Steel Overseer, but that didn't seem to matter. What won him the game was Spell Pierce on my Wrath on turn 4, I just couldn't deal with his board after that. In game 3 I had Pithing Needle for Overseer again. The game slowly drew out until I resolved Timely into Timely into Hurkyl's Recall. I actually ended up racing him with 6 Timely tokens and winning explicitly from Timely token damage. Definitely an interesting way to win, not sure that's ever happened to me before.
Record: 1-0
Round 2 vs Bant Eldrazi
Game 1 I stall on two lands for a couple turns, it's all my opponent needs to overwhelm me. Game 2 I draw the opposite and have more mana than I could possibly want. I kept answering his threats until I stumbled and drew too many lands in a row. I remember one turn I had 12 mana in play and was holding three lands. The game ended with me having nothing to cast and 19 mana in play. He had Drowner of Hope, Reality Smasher, and Displacer blinking the Drowner when I took 14 and died. Of note, Ceremonious Rejection was much worse than I had hoped. He played Cavern before he cast his first creature in both games so I never got to use them.
Record: 1-1
Round 3 vs Mono U Tron
Game 1 my opponent had turn 1 Map on the draw into turn 3 Tron. While I tried my best to keep interacting with him and keep up, he had such a huge mana advantage on me. I had four lands in play when I scooped, he had an Ugin in play and more than enough mana to interact with me. In game 2 I kept a double Colonnade opener and he had turn 3 Tron again. I actually stalled on lands so long I went to discard phase. When I played my third land he had 13 mana in play and yeah, the game was basically over. Between all the counters I had (10 post-board), I managed to stall it out for a while, but yeah, there wasn't really any hope to win when I was as far behind as I was. It was certainly closer than it should have been though.
Record: 1-2
Bant Eldrazi is still a bit unfavourable, and Ceremonious Rejection isn't helping. It's possible that some Isochron Scepter type build might be better in that matchup, though I don't know if that would make Scepter worth testing or not. I generally drew pretty poorly though, multiple early missed land drops.
I would never have guessed that Rule of Law was for control decks. You're favoured in those matchups and in fact, your late game win condition is often casting multiple Gifts in a single turn. Rule of Law is really awkward to play with because neither person can do anything for fear of a single counter wrecking them. Like even if you manage to cast Gifts and find a win condition, you just get that win condition countered. It would be much better with Emrakul since it can't be countered, thereby giving you a way out of the deadlock situation. I think you lose in the long run because they have better Colonnade answers than you do.
As I have been testing Rule of Law, I've been finding out is a double-edge sword. I was suggesting that Rule of Law is a bad card against Control decks. It's easier for him to control me as his Remand are as effective as mine and his Cryptic Commands becomes a 2 for 1 turns. The Silence suggestion is pretty good. I will give it a go next week.
As far as drawing goes, I imagine it's because you're new to the deck. Winning 1-0 vs 8-Rack but drawing 1-1 against Jeskai Nahiri strikes me as odd. I've finished all my 8-Rack games, and I've played a fair share of them. This isn't to knock you or make you feel bad, but you probably need to be a little quicker with your decisions.
Yeah, basically the problem I have is I'm not familiar with the meta. I have never ever seen 8-rack deck before, so I was playing very safe. It took me a while to finish him. Jeskai Nahiri was really mistakes I did. On the 3 games we played, I was in some point in a position of advantage. The second game I lost it because of bad decisions and the third game I wasn't able to finish him quick enough. I gotta practice and learn to make better and faster decisions. With time I'll get familiar with the deck and the decks around.
I think it's more so that certain decks have popped up with strategies that are more difficult to play around. Decks like Death's Shadow or Infect require very specific answers to be able to interact. Bant Eldrazi is much like RG Tron in that our answers line up poorly to their threats.
I said I wasn't sure about my particular list because I'm still testing it and finding certain cards are ineffective. The differences between our lists are very minimal though: I play Emrakul instead of Elspeth and the Sphinx's Rev and Remands over the Wall of Omens. So it's basically just the meta decision that I want better late game and don't see creature decks as a big enough problem. I'm what, 6 for 7 in my last 7 games with the deck? Granted, the level of play I'm facing is comparatively low (i.e. I'm significantly better than my opponents). I wish I had good testing partners to fine tune the list with.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Round 1 vs Elves:
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep two Plains with blue cards on the draw. I cast zero spells that game. I actually drew a Wrath when I needed it, but it was Supreme Verdict while I had no blue mana. Game 2 I mull to 6, keep a hand that basically only has Gifts on 4, and lose the game without being able to go off. These were not competitive games, basically my deck just fizzling to itself from bad draws.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Infect:
Game 1 I mull to 6, keep an mediocre hand, draw nothing but lands. No Gifts, no removal of any sort. Game 2 I keep 5 lands + Remand after a mulligan and draw into counters but no interaction. I drew one Path but it got blanked and drew a Ghost Quarter for his Inkmoth. I actually had a Scry from Condescend where I kept Dispel + Elesh Norn on top (in that order) with Map in hand, planning to cast Map on my following turn, then sacrifice it after drawing Elesh Norn to get Tron to cast it. My opponent topdecked a Nature's Claim to destroy my Map and that was that. Once again, rather abysmal draws from my deck.
Record: 0-2
Round 3 vs Jund:
Game 1 my opponent went Bob into Scooze and I cast Engineered Explosives for 2. When he cast both again, I used Academy Ruins to recur it and cast it again after eating some damage for one turn. When he started casting Lilianas, using EE for 3 was really good, it helped kill two Lilianas and really keep me in the game. I was very happy about it. I eventually resolved Elesh Norn into an empty board and he had no removal for it, Norn + Colonnade was enough. Game 2 my opponent had early disruption and then turn 3 Liliana. I didn't really have answers for it and when he got to start attacking with his Raging Ravine, it was too late. He had an Abrupt Decay for my Signet that kept me from activating Colonnade to kill Liliana, and I got put into awkward positions needing to play GQ for Raging Raving and coloured mana to activate Colonnade. He eventually killed me with Raging Ravine and land + Bolt as the last two cards in his hand to seal it right there. Game three he got an early Liliana but I got early Tron and cast Sundering Titan into Liliana. While Lili answered it, I was left with Tron + Colonnade into his 0 lands after the Sundering Titan, and I knew I'd have time to find stuff. I ended up topdecking Ugin and that ended the game.
Record: 1-2
Not a good showing overall, but also a lot of things outside of my control. Bad draws happen and this is one of the downsides of the deck. It's possible I should mulligan more aggressively, but somehow keeping 4 and 5 card hands don't seem like winning plays to me.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Tough luck man, not sure a control deck in modern has the luxury of those kind of Mulligan's either. Anyway that field makes me feel like wall of omens would be good, atleast it proactive for when you fall behind....? I'm also a fan of remand but have been generally disappointed with those cards as to much has to go right usually for them to feel great and your usually ahead anyways when you play it on the play...:(
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Round 1 I played against Abzan CoCo. Renegade Rallier actually seems very good in their deck, being able to recur combo pieces seems like an ideal use for that card. Anyway, game 1 I cast double Wrath and eventually when I played Ugin he just scooped. Game 2 I mulled to 5, kept one land + Signet on the draw, he combo'd me on turn 3 while I had one land in play. Game 3 was a better game than the second but I lost it after missing 6 outs in back to back turns (triple Wrath or the Tron piece to cast Ugin).
Round 2 I played against RG Tron and we all know how that went. Game 1 I got turn 3 Karn'd on the draw without a blue source available (I had Signet as the blue source) for my Condescend. It was not close. Game I Ghost Quartered his Tron land on turn 3 but he found another to get Tron up. He Sowing Salted that I countered, but a Karn into Newlamog into Newlamog was too much, I scooped when he showed me the second Newlamog.
I left at this point, unlucky day. Draw poorly into the worst matchup. Might change the board to be more for an open field and see how that goes. There was a lot of variety today including Titan Breach, Amulet Titan, RG Tron, Dredge, Abzan CoCo, and Death Shadow Aggro.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
How does this deck fair in the current meta? Or more specifically against things like B/G Tron, Lantern, R/W Prison which are prevalent in my area
How much room for innovation does the deck have? I loved the complexity of combos like Grishoalbrand but the thing that turned me off the deck was its lack of interaction and room for creativity
More obviously I want to know if the deck can hold its own. As much as I value enjoying a deck I also want to win.
UW Gifts Tron has decent room to mess around with, I've seen lots of interesting builds. Part of the unexplored territory is finding builds that are closer to Mono U Tron, where the white is just a splash. Some people have tried non-Gifts variants, variants more focused on Tron that play Karns, etc.
In your meta specifically, not really sure, because you'll be losing to BG Tron a fair bit. I had to board an unreasonable amount of cards to get it to 50% post-board. I don't know what the Mono U Tron matchup vs BG Tron is, but probably still unfavourable for them. The issue is that all Tron decks play for the late game, but BG Tron gets there significantly faster. You basically get forced to answer turn 3 Karn or else the matchup gets too far out of hand and you can't amass enough mana in time. One thing I haven't tested was multiple copies of Ceremonious Rejection, which might be good in your meta. I don't know if that would solve issues in those matchups though.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I was also considering other splashes (such as black) to help against faster aggro decks like Infect (obviously keeping it to spells that only require a single black) perhaps you've done testing that would rule this out as an option but I don't know. Or possibly other reanimation targets to help with certain matchups
Either way I feel confident that I'm not going to get bored of winning (or losing) the same way over and over again whilst playing this deck
EDIT: One other question I did have was what cards in the latest list you posted were meta calls (just so I understand the reasoning behind you running them)
This deck does great against both Elves and Affinity. Both of them need really good draws to win because you have lots of cards that just wreck them. Triple Wrath and Elesh Norn in the mainboard are great, and against Elves you also have Iona and Ugin. You lose games where they have good hands, I've certainly lost my fair share. It also depends on the skill level of the opponent for Affinity, I lost more games in MTGO Dailies than I did in paper.
I dislike splashing black for actual spells because it hurts the mana too much. When I tested it with just a light splash for Lingering Souls, I cut it after a day of testing, it was really bad and inconsistent. I run a single black dual I can fetch for now because it allows me to cast Engineered Explosives for 3 and sometimes Unburial Rites. When you're talking about playing 24 lands with half of them providing no colour, it's too hard to splash a third colour.
Other reanimation targets are fine, I had a Terastodon in my sideboard today for Tron, for example. You can run more or less anything as a reanimation target, it's all up to whether the card is good. You don't want to reanimate something like Wurmcoil for value, it's all about something that makes it difficult for your opponent to win or kill your creature, like Iona, Elesh Norn, Sundering Titan, or Terastodon.
The deck doesn't get boring quickly because of the flexibility it has and how it plays interesting games. The win conditions change depending on the matchup and you always have lots of options thanks to Gifts.
I wrote notes about my last list when I posted it. Nothing was particularly a meta call in the mainboard, the sideboard was me testing based on what people were playing. All you need to do for the board is jam some good blue/white cards that seem good against what you expect to play against.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Round 1 vs Ad Nauseam:
Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep a pretty mediocre hand. Thankfully, he casts Spoils of the Vault and domes himself for 20, it was really lucky. Game 2 he casts Silence on my end step, I counter it and then counter the Ad Nauseam he was hoping to freely cast. He then casts Ad Nauseam again the turn after, and with the Phyrexian Unlife in play the game ends. Game 3 he casts Ad Nauseam while I have only one counter and he had a Pact of Negation for it.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Affinity
Game 1 my opponent leads with a very solid opening hand but I very luckily draw into Wrath in time. It stalls the game out long enough for me to draw Gifts and win from Elesh Norn. Game 2 my opponent keeps a hand that's all in on his single Steel Overseer, which I path. He has no follow up, but neither do I. Eventually I have Hurkyl's Recall into Snapcaster Hurkyl's Recall to set him so far behind, and then eventually I draw and cast Elesh Norn.
Record: 1-1
Round 3 vs Revolt Zoo
Game 1 is a complete stomp for my opponent, my draw was bad, I had no idea what he was playing (his first time play the deck), and I lost very quickly (turn 4 while I was on the draw). In game 2 it was looking really grim while I was at one life, but I resolved Elesh Norn and then got the board into a favourable position with him just having a Narnam Renagade in play. He bricked a couple turns and then I drew into counters to stop any sort of Bolt he could have drawn. In the third game I Condescended his early Reckless Bushwacker to save a ton of life and then the game was just over from there, he never climbed back and I won very easily.
Record: 2-1
Round 4 vs Abzan CoCo
Game 1 went back and forth until I had Gifts for Elesh Norn. My opponent had the Fiend Hunter, but he scooped to Sundering Titan while I had mana to put Explosives on top and cast it for 3 to destroy the Fiend Hunter and wipe his board again. Game 2 my opponent kept a hand that went turn 3 Finks into turn 4 Redcap, that's way too slow against us. I had Purge for the Redcap and then a slew of counters and such going forward. My opponent cast Path on my Elesh Norn, but I had two Ugins in hand so when I got to 8 mana, the game ended there basically. I cleared the board, then ulted Ugin and put a second one into play. Unfortunately no Emrakul, but I didn't need it and he lost shortly after.
Record: 3-1
Only bad matchup was Ad Nauseam, which feels bad sometimes because they can win on your end step. It's like the Grishoalbrand matchup, too hard to counter everything when they play so many. I didn't have a Dispel this week so that's perhaps a card I may go back to playing a 1-of, maybe instead of the second Negate and split them.
I also played a game against Jund at one point, only relevant detail is that Explosives for 3 is a beating. I'm consistently impressed by how much work one black source is doing for Explosives. Sure, I've cast an Unburial Rites or two off the black mana, but honestly the Explosives keeps killing things like Liliana and it's fantastic.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Here is my list:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
Creatures
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Planeswalkers
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
3 Azorius Signet
1 Talisman of Progress
2 Planar Bridge
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Expedition Map
1 Mindslaver
Spells
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
3 Path to Exile
2 Warping Wail
4 Remand
2 Into the Roil
2 Rule of Law
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Celestial Purge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Candles' Glow
2 Disenchant
After tested, my deck has real issues with mirror match with RG Tron, have good match with control decks like Jeskai Nahiri and combo decks (excluding Melira Company, which I haven't tested). With aggro decks can't really give a veredict, as I haven't faced many on my LGS. Any comments or suggestions let me know!
Cheers,
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
Planar Bridge is a cool card but I wouldn't play multiple copies. At the point where you can activate it, you can probably just cast any threat you draw. One copy for Gifts utility seems fine (I don't know how good the card is, haven't tested it yet), but the second copy seems excessive.
I also don't like Isochron Scepter in the deck. You have 11 spells you can effectively imprint, but only four as far as diversity is concerned. Part of the issue with it is that you have to sacrifice and play worse cards to empower it. Warping Wail gives you useful utility but Path is just a better card. Into the Roil can be kicked, which is cool, but Repeal is better. You also simply can't play Condescend, which I like a lot. On top of that, playing it seems to have forced you to cut Wraths and Timely Reinforcements to make room, which I'm not so sure about. Even looking at your board, you're playing Candles' Glow instead of Timely to use with Isochron Scepter, which doesn't particularly strike me as good. I think when you finally play against aggro decks, your particular build is going to have trouble.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
First match RG Tron. I'm on the play. I get Tron online on third turn and drop Rule of Law and Scepter-Remand with signet. I control the match until I bring threats with portal. His Newlamog comes up too late and I end wining. Second game he smashes me with a third turn Karn, which I counter, but it comes down on next turn. Third match he mulligans to 5, takes up to turn 4 or 5 to get Tron online. We end up drawing 1-1.
Second match was Mono Black 8 rack. I manage to resolve a Rule of Law and later Scepter-Into the Roil. That way I control his Liliana and Racks, and I start kicking and drawing to avoid damage until I get Tron online. Ugin comes down to win the game. First game took too long we had 3 mins for second match. I win 1-0.
Third match was Jeskai Nahiri. First match I rush Tron and a Gift for threats. I end overwhelming him later with portal drop, and Iona comes to lock the game. Second match he draws all the hate, I try to answer but he ended up kiling me with Colonnade hits. Third match was up to my favor, as I resolve a Sundering Titan, he destroys it but ends getting behind. I don't have time then to finish him and we end up drawing 1-1.
The last match was Madcap Titanshift. First match I gift for Iona Green, then he resolves a Madcap Experiment, but I path his Platinum Emperior. The second match I ger Leyline miracle, but he finish me with Avenger of Zendikar. The last match I get Scepter-Wail, control him until he destroys it. By that moment I had too much power on board, and I ended up winning the game.
2 wins and 2 draws. But then again, not matchs against aggro decks.
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
I dislike Unsubstantiate as a card, but with Isochron Scepter it might be fine as a singleton. Again, it's part of this flexibility package you're playing because of the Scepter. You play worse but more flexible cards in order to shift power into the Scepter. So now your average card is worse, but Scepter becomes a better card. It all depends on how all-in you want to be on it. As an added plus, these random 1-ofs also power up Gifts. I've been moving away from powering up Gifts because it's the best card in the deck, but with 6-8 copies of it (counting Scepter as well), that might offset the shift because you draw more copies.
I would never have guessed that Rule of Law was for control decks. You're favoured in those matchups and in fact, your late game win condition is often casting multiple Gifts in a single turn. Rule of Law is really awkward to play with because neither person can do anything for fear of a single counter wrecking them. Like even if you manage to cast Gifts and find a win condition, you just get that win condition countered. It would be much better with Emrakul since it can't be countered, thereby giving you a way out of the deadlock situation. I think you lose in the long run because they have better Colonnade answers than you do.
As far as drawing goes, I imagine it's because you're new to the deck. Winning 1-0 vs 8-Rack but drawing 1-1 against Jeskai Nahiri strikes me as odd. I've finished all my 8-Rack games, and I've played a fair share of them. This isn't to knock you or make you feel bad, but you probably need to be a little quicker with your decisions.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Round 1 vs Affinity
Game 1 I draw the Elesh Norn so I just stall the game out. Some removal and counters to draw the game out until I Wrath the board. I eventually draw enough lands, resolve Elesh Norn, and win several turns later. I had other ways to close it faster but I played safe with such a huge lead and multiple answers in my hand. In game 2, no such luck and I just die a slow death. Pithing Needle (in my board anticipating Lantern) was good on his Steel Overseer, but that didn't seem to matter. What won him the game was Spell Pierce on my Wrath on turn 4, I just couldn't deal with his board after that. In game 3 I had Pithing Needle for Overseer again. The game slowly drew out until I resolved Timely into Timely into Hurkyl's Recall. I actually ended up racing him with 6 Timely tokens and winning explicitly from Timely token damage. Definitely an interesting way to win, not sure that's ever happened to me before.
Record: 1-0
Round 2 vs Bant Eldrazi
Game 1 I stall on two lands for a couple turns, it's all my opponent needs to overwhelm me. Game 2 I draw the opposite and have more mana than I could possibly want. I kept answering his threats until I stumbled and drew too many lands in a row. I remember one turn I had 12 mana in play and was holding three lands. The game ended with me having nothing to cast and 19 mana in play. He had Drowner of Hope, Reality Smasher, and Displacer blinking the Drowner when I took 14 and died. Of note, Ceremonious Rejection was much worse than I had hoped. He played Cavern before he cast his first creature in both games so I never got to use them.
Record: 1-1
Round 3 vs Mono U Tron
Game 1 my opponent had turn 1 Map on the draw into turn 3 Tron. While I tried my best to keep interacting with him and keep up, he had such a huge mana advantage on me. I had four lands in play when I scooped, he had an Ugin in play and more than enough mana to interact with me. In game 2 I kept a double Colonnade opener and he had turn 3 Tron again. I actually stalled on lands so long I went to discard phase. When I played my third land he had 13 mana in play and yeah, the game was basically over. Between all the counters I had (10 post-board), I managed to stall it out for a while, but yeah, there wasn't really any hope to win when I was as far behind as I was. It was certainly closer than it should have been though.
Record: 1-2
Bant Eldrazi is still a bit unfavourable, and Ceremonious Rejection isn't helping. It's possible that some Isochron Scepter type build might be better in that matchup, though I don't know if that would make Scepter worth testing or not. I generally drew pretty poorly though, multiple early missed land drops.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
As I have been testing Rule of Law, I've been finding out is a double-edge sword. I was suggesting that Rule of Law is a bad card against Control decks. It's easier for him to control me as his Remand are as effective as mine and his Cryptic Commands becomes a 2 for 1 turns. The Silence suggestion is pretty good. I will give it a go next week.
Yeah, basically the problem I have is I'm not familiar with the meta. I have never ever seen 8-rack deck before, so I was playing very safe. It took me a while to finish him. Jeskai Nahiri was really mistakes I did. On the 3 games we played, I was in some point in a position of advantage. The second game I lost it because of bad decisions and the third game I wasn't able to finish him quick enough. I gotta practice and learn to make better and faster decisions. With time I'll get familiar with the deck and the decks around.
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer