While I disagree with playing 4 Trophy, I do think 2 or 3 is the sweet spot. Trophy on land is about the worst you can do since it rarely does anything but possibly enabling a Trap. Most decks will activate Traps on their own, so Trophy is usually better spent as premium removal on actual threats.
What it does bring is a way to to deal with large creatures that Fatal Push doesn't hit (Hollow One, Gurmag Angler, Primeval Titan) Planeswalkers (LotV, Karn, Gideon, Chandra), Artifacts and Enchantments (KCI, Hardened Scales, Search for Azcanta, etc) as well as being another form of instant speed interaction to take the pressure off Fatal Push (especially non-revolt enabled Pushes) while also enabling Archive Trap value. Being able to hit Tron lands or Valakuts is nice, but we dumpster those decks already, so it's not a big deal, but still nice to have.
The mana base is not that much worse, you play about the same number of fetchlands, you play 2 shock lands in place of Shelldocks (both enter tapped if you need to save life, thus being the same speed) and you have a basic Forest to get off Field if you want. It's a little more work and a little more pain occasionally, but the benefits outweigh the negatives in my opinion.
I hold steady that Sultai is a more robust deck with better interaction. It does play a little differently than the standard UB list that Chung has been popularizing, but I think if people give it a shot and really put in the effort, they will see the value of adding green. Of particular note right now is how little play Blood Moon is seeing, making it less of a problem to play the 3 color version.
Adding a third color to two-color deck only for 2-3 cards without unique effects?
Btw I think Trophy does nothing against Scapeshift
If you destroy Valakut before they combo, they replace it with another land so they stay at the same land count
If you destroy Valakut in response to combo triggers then triggers still resolve and do same amount of damage
If you destroy non Valakut they just replace it with Mountain so land count stay the same and triggers do same damage (or more)
So you just waste a card and mana for nothing
Top 8-ed a Modern event last weekend playing UB Mill for the first time. It felt awesome. Unfortunately lost the first top8 match due to a greedy scry and not hitting a 3rd land to land bridge on time. It was against UR Phoenix which really feels like a bye. My rounds 1 and 2 were against UR Phoenix, won both 2-0. Apparently they don't like it when you surgical their threats >:)
I'll be playing Mill again coming Sunday on another Modern event, hope it will go just as well.
I've found the same... playing against Phoenix and Storm are relatively easy matches. Spirits - both UW and Bant - have not given me issues either. Humans seems to come down more to finding a quick Bridge and/or them not using a Mage to lock us off of it. Only decks that have given me trouble in the last 3 weeks are BG/Rock/Jund builds and hyper-aggro decks like Goblins/8-Whack and Infect. Been thinking of adding in another mass removal option or two for helping those like a Ritual of Soot or such.
But I had forgotten how much fun it is to play mill. And this new build even feels/is competitive against many Tier decks at this point.
[quote from="Yamar »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/221596-ubx-mill?comment=2444"]I've found the same... playing against Phoenix and Storm are relatively easy matches. Spirits - both UW and Bant - have not given me issues either. Humans seems to come down more to finding a quick Bridge and/or them not using a Mage to lock us off of it. Only decks that have given me trouble in the last 3 weeks are BG/Rock/Jund builds and hyper-aggro decks like Goblins/8-Whack and Infect. Been thinking of adding in another mass removal option or two for helping those like a Ritual of Soot or such.
But I had forgotten how much fun it is to play mill. And this new build even feels/is competitive against many Tier decks at this point.[/quot
yeah I have struggled against Jund/BG rock these past two weeks. My FNM decks have had more this decks pop up and the mill deck has been struggling. I mean they are close game and a couple of them I was able to get them down to 1 card in the deck but it wasn't enough. That was why I was trying assassin trophy in the deck but I think the UB version is just more consistent.
It's been talked about before, but I've been having more success with a controlly UW build lately as opposed to my UB version. Mission Briefing and Archive Trap are awesome, and let you play at instant speed to hold up your control cards, and Surgical being Phyrexian is still 3x in the main. Logic Knot works really well for us, Cryptic Command is a house, Path to Exile is awesome against creatures, and Supreme Verdict + Settle the Wreckage gives you good diversity of board clears. Hedron Crab and Manic Scribe provide additional milling. RiP and Fragmentize in the board cover our bases for Artifact/Enchantment and graveyard strategies. My meta is just my friend group though, but has an interesting array of matchups (Hollow one, Bant Spirits, BW Tokens, BG Rock, UW Control, Superfriends (usually wrecks me), Ponza, Affinity + HS Affinity). I don't have an up to date deck list online yet, but will try and add one. It needs some more tuning but I've found it to be pretty reliable, just grindy (leaning on Orbs for the win a lot of the time).
I've found Spirits to be a very tough matchup for my UB deck - Yamar, how do you do it? Spell Queller wrecks me so hard, stomping out my mill spells and Fatal pushes (or bridges when I try to land them), then flying over my head. It might just be that she knows how to play spirits vs UB Mill because of our regular matchups, but I feel it's tight but definitely unfavoured for me.
I've found Spirits to be a very tough matchup for my UB deck - Yamar, how do you do it? Spell Queller wrecks me so hard, stomping out my mill spells and Fatal pushes (or bridges when I try to land them), then flying over my head. It might just be that she knows how to play spirits vs UB Mill because of our regular matchups, but I feel it's tight but definitely unfavoured for me.
Well, I've played the match at my local FNM 3 times in the last month and have gone 3-0 against it (once 2-0, twice 2-1). For reference, I'm playing the Jason Chung build at the moment and plan to start tweaking it a bit this week. My primary strategy is to get rid of the Quellers first and foremost by Extraction means in game 1. This absorbs any chance countering as they don't usually main other options. To me it's just as important as bleeding out the Meddling Mages in the Humans matchup. After that, landing a Bridge and/or a nice Incursion generally will buy enough time to take them out.
Post SB, we get other removal options - I find Night of Souls' Betrayal to be vastly underrated in this and many other matchups post-board - and the board wipe, but mostly it's just plowing thru the important creatures - get rid of Drogskol and Quellers as you can to free things up and keep hexproof off the table.
I know I've been a bit lucky, but the last game was against one of our most seasoned pilots and that was the 2-0. I got lucky with a topdeck Damnation and the following turn he tapped out for a CoCo and I responded with a massive Incursion. Sometimes it just goes that way...
If you have a list for your current UW list, can you post or send it to me? Curious as to what type of build you're working with.
Watch the most recent sqlut video on twitch.tv where he 4-2'd the PTQ. He 2-0s spirits in like round 2. The game plan against spirits when watching him play is to resolve crypt incursion or bridge. He's not afraid to have an Archive Trap or Glimpse get countered by Mausleum Wanderer if he can't kill it. If the opponent is holding 3 mana up for Spell Queller he doesn't cast spells into him until you can play on his turn to create an opening for bridge/crypt incursion. When you don't cast spells the spirits player doesn't advance their board and their clock becomes really slow. If you watch the GP Liverpool Sqlut (Jason Chung) also plays against spirits on camera for a match in round 8 or 9 I think. After watching him play the matchup and never losing to it (I've witnessed him as like 7-0 vs spirits), it has helped me in the matchup. I used to think Brutality was a good card vs Spirits but boarding them out has helped me a lot.
From personal experience, I think Geist of Saint Traft is the most dangerous card against us so if you have a chance to get rid of it via IoK then I would do it.
Interesting assessment. What I find is that even their slow clock (Maybe Maus Wanderer, or any 2 drop) is enough to keep the pressure up. If they have a vial on board they can hold up Queller mana and still deploy threats. I'll go have a scope of the twitch video!
I had the idea for a UW list when I realized my only black spells were Glimpses, Crypt Incursion, Fatal Push and Collective Brutality, with Damnation and LLotVoid in the side, and white generally offered better stuff (Verdict and Settle, RiP, Path), and sideboard options. It definitely still needs tuning, I've probably only played about 12-15 matches with it. Also, I was mistaken - currently running no creatures. I'm still somewhat learning how to play control (I'm familiar with it since I've played MTG for 15 years) so advice on the control package would be good.
The basic plan is to slow the game down with counterspells (Cryptic is so boss) and removal (Path, Verdict), and get some combination of Trap/Briefing/Orb/Fraying Sanity down and protect. It seems to work well, your opponent seems to settle into a grindier game and then you hit them with a Trap > Briefing for most of the rest of their deck. Also, spicy haymaker in Psychic Spiral, haha, but it's an instant which is key!
Firstly, lands seem to be good colour wise, but with the prevalence of Field of Ruin around, I haven't had a Shelldock survive to activation in some time, so I'm considering cutting, or dropping to fewer than 3. Academy Ruins is great for recurring Orbs, but colourless mana (on top of the stuff from our own FoR) can sometimes be hard. I've just thought about an Ipnu Rivulet as an option too, but with no Crypt Incursion, lifegain is a little harder to come by so I'm cautious. I'm also thinking about going up to 23 or even 24, we really want to be making our first 3 (ideally 4) land drops.
The only loss to milling from taking out black is Glimpse, and with Mission Briefing doing a decent job acting as a mill spell with Archive Trap in the yard, as a 4-of with 4 Field of Ruin, it fills Glimpses slot pretty nicely.
For counterspells, I think 2 Logic Knot and 3 Cryptic give me pretty good all around coverage, and I think I should buff it out with 2 of the other options. Right now I'm testing Spell Snare (BGx was AssTrophy all over my orbs, Goyf is always a concern), but I can't decide what these 2 should be, or if I need more than 7 counterspells (up to 9?) My inclination would be mana leak or negate for these slots, perhaps 2 of each. Remand does a pretty good job at slowing them down while keeping our hand up.
I've considered Crabs and Scribes but have found them to just be a lightning rod for removal. I had my most success with my UB deck around AER release (ie: Fatal Push) by having no creatures in the main, leaves a lot of removal stranded. I've effectively used these slots to put the control package in.
One thing I've dropped is the Ensnaring Bridge - it doesn't play nicely with countermagic. Just had a thought that since I'm in white I could stick Ghostly Prison in to fill that role if need be.
I'm unsure if I need 2 Supreme Verdict AND 2 Settle the Wreckage in the main. I see it as Path handling big threats, and this handling go-wide strategies, which would otherwise be a tough matchup. Perhaps could slot 2 out for 2 Ghostly Prisons as anti go-wide.
Anyways, the list is not as out-there as you would think, it's still almost the same core mill package but with countermagic instead of creatures. White just complements the control strategy better than black does, in Modern at least. You could play similarly with a UB Control mill list, but UB control is more empty-handed, protect your threat on the board and tempo them down. But we're not really deploying a threat here, so it's not really ideal here. Being able to make your opponent tap mana into your Orbs, or holding up a Cryptic or Logic Knot (or Mission Briefing) to catch-all in the later game (where we are aiming to play to anyway) is a great place to be in my experience.
My sideboard has more than 15 cards since I'm still testing it out. A couple not mentioned that I've also considered: Spellskie, Leyline of Sanctity, Detention Sphere, Spreading Seas, Wall of Denial, Vapor Snag, Timely Reinforcements, Set Adrift
I'm very new to the deck. I've only run it through a couple of leagues, but I just picked up a 5-0 (10-1 in games) in a friendly league this afternoon with this list:
I think I definitely benefited from a couple of favorable matches, but deck felt great. 2-0 vs Counters Company
G1 (W): T2 trap into surgical of Devoted Druid draws the concession
G2 (W): T3 double trap into surgical draws concession 2-0 vs Amulet Titan
G1 (W): Starts off looking bad. Opp starts on double Amulet, but has no payoff so my slow keep isn't punished. Orb is my only mill piece, which they EE immediately. Push answers his ballista. I get a bridge down and draw into mill, letting me briefing a surgical to take their titans. they concede.
G2 (W): Mull to 5, but it's a strong 5 (land, crab, glimpse, cut, extirpate). I quickly mill a titan, surgical, and opp concedes. 2-0 vs Bant Spirits
G1 (W): Extremely close game. Crab and trap do a lot of work, but opp is swinging in with lethal only to get blindsided with a mid-attack Collective Brutality cast with Shelldock Isle, killing their phantasmal image and gaining me 2 life, leaving me alive to mill them out the following turn with a land drop.
G2 (W): They keep what seems to be a slow hand, banking on Thalia to slow me down. It + wanderer do present an annoyance, but crab & orb do a steady job churning through their deck. There's a fun sequence when I go to push their thalia. They queller it, but I set adrift their queller, letting me push thalia, and then orb mills away their queller. It's clear they have a company or 2 in hand, but they can't get to 4 mana. field of ruin was functionally wasteland because few basics got milled away. 2-1 vs Tron
G1 (L): I keep a medium hand that does nothing against Tron. I draw into aggressive mill and nearly get there anyway. They land a Karn on T4. I get them to 1 card before they ultimate him and reset the game with an Ulamog in play.
G2 (W): T3 crab mills tron piece and surgical removes it. Opp tries to play it out, but T4 field of ruin into trap into briefing/trap basically ends it.
G3 (W): I keep a hand with a surgical and 2 extirpates, but trap as my only mill. Thankfully, Opp has to sylvan scrying on T3, letting me trap and surgical the land he searched for. Opp tried to be sneaky with a surgical in response to mine, but I extirpate in response. Opp tries to play it out again, but can't draw a land for the TKS in hand, and they concede when I drop Ensnaring Bridge. 2-0 vs Hollow One
G1 (W): They have T2 Hollow One + Tasigur. I have a bridge in hand, but brutality first to dump some cards, and get the bridge down on T4. Eventually they get 2 bloodghasts and phoenixes out, but I'm able to get my hand empty before they can do enough damage. I get a good crypt incursion to go back up to 24 and opp concedes.
G2 (W): I keep a hand that isn't awesome, but I get a T1 trap. I consider waiting, but I do have an extirpate in hand, so I risk it. I'm able to remove their bloodghasts. I'm not loving my hand, but I have crab, lands, and some a couple answers. Opp scoops after they don't get their second land on T4.
Deck was super fun. Made up for the 1-4 I put up last night. A deck that makes main deck surgical extraction effective is so good against so many decks.
What I often find is that against most decks, I board into a prison-ish build: take out Mind Funeral/Startled Awake/Glimpse the Unthinkable, bring in whatever I think I need. If they don't fetch, obviously Archive Trap goes out. If I need more than 8 slots (or 12 if they don't fetch--yes, I've brought in literally my entire sideboard) I take whichever of Orb and Scribe I think will be less effective in the game I think I'm likely to play. Hadn't really sussed out how to play against Tron (haven't played much of late; took this for a spin at GP side events) but against them I'd probably take out Orb/Scribe and bring in Extirpate, Bridge, Set Adrift.
Might try replacing Funeral/Awake with Mission Briefing. I don't want to go below eight sources of untargeted mill, though.
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Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Did you play Visions of Beyond much? If so, how did it interact with Ensnaring Bridge?
thanks
It's an anti-combo, I agree, but the two cards are both individually so powerful that I find I can't not run both.
As I recall, it didn't actually cost me any games--generally by the time I had a Bridge lock going I had enough mana to cast everything I drew off the Visions, unless I got unlucky and hit two lands. (Which does happen, of course, but that's one small reason I run nine fetches.)
The only time I found myself really up against it was against a mono-red prison deck with Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void on one and two... of course there my Visions were being countered, so I could keep my hand empty and not get overrun by all the Goblin tokens from Goblin Rabblemaster and Legion Warboss. (My Drownyard won me that game, probably milled half his deck. Afterward, he said, "His Ensnaring Bridge... that's supposed to be on my side..." But his Abrades couldn't get past his own Chalice.)
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Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
What I often find is that against most decks, I board into a prison-ish build
You might want to try playing a more controlling list to begin with, as they are far superior to lists with cards like Manic Scribe, Mind Funeral, and (yikes) Startled Awake - all of which are too slow, do too little, or are just plain bad.
What I often find is that against most decks, I board into a prison-ish build
You might want to try playing a more controlling list to begin with, as they are far superior to lists with cards like Manic Scribe, Mind Funeral, and (yikes) Startled Awake - all of which are too slow, do too little, or are just plain bad.
Perhaps, but I like having more untargeted mill, and Scribe is, once you have delirium, like clockwork. If I were to change the list I'm running, it'd be to swap the Funeral/Awake for four copies of Breaking.
Which might still be less than ideal, but I'm familiar with playing the style of list I posted.
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Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
OK... have been playing around with this alternative build for a bit and was able to squeeze in a few games after my FNM last night. My last round opponent had an Emeria deck that he had never played before, but this mill version dominated it pretty hard right out of the gates:
(sorry about the deck formatting - not quite sure how to do that?)
4x Archive Trap
2x Cast Down
1x Engulf the Shore
3x Fatal Push
2x Mission Briefing
3x Remand
2x Trapmaker's Snare
2x Winds of Rebuke
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Field of Ruin
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
4x Day's Undoing
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
Basically, I was coming from how often I simply run out of gas with mill more than anything. So the primary goal here is to have a Leyline opener - the Crypts are a backup to that. Do what you can, hopefully bleed 20-30 cards out and kill as much of the board as possible. Then Day's Undoing to refuel. You get your full deck back (more mill spells back in the library) while your opponent's library is down whatever has been milled thanks to removing the graveyard one way or another. They draw a fresh 7 and reset with a 20-30 card library. If you stave off firing a Day's until turn 5 or 6, it's plausible to cast your reset and still have mana available for a Remand or other option. Having 6 mana on your "first turn" after the reset raises the chance of Glimpse > Briefing > Glimpse.
This first "live trial" felt pretty good and got some good conversations going after. Greatly improves options over the non-Surgical heavy builds against things like Dredge and RB Arclight due to the Leylines in the main. Kills any lifegain options from Crypt or Momento, so things like Burn I expect to be harder...
Any thoughts/feedback/insights?
What if you dont draw Day's Undoing? All your Tormod's Crypt and Leylines are blank 80%-90% of times
What if you dont draw your gravehate? Day's Undoing is undoing all your mill work. Day's Undoing doesnt reset your life totals and opps board. Thats just a gift to an aggro deck.
What it does bring is a way to to deal with large creatures that Fatal Push doesn't hit (Hollow One, Gurmag Angler, Primeval Titan) Planeswalkers (LotV, Karn, Gideon, Chandra), Artifacts and Enchantments (KCI, Hardened Scales, Search for Azcanta, etc) as well as being another form of instant speed interaction to take the pressure off Fatal Push (especially non-revolt enabled Pushes) while also enabling Archive Trap value. Being able to hit Tron lands or Valakuts is nice, but we dumpster those decks already, so it's not a big deal, but still nice to have.
The mana base is not that much worse, you play about the same number of fetchlands, you play 2 shock lands in place of Shelldocks (both enter tapped if you need to save life, thus being the same speed) and you have a basic Forest to get off Field if you want. It's a little more work and a little more pain occasionally, but the benefits outweigh the negatives in my opinion.
I hold steady that Sultai is a more robust deck with better interaction. It does play a little differently than the standard UB list that Chung has been popularizing, but I think if people give it a shot and really put in the effort, they will see the value of adding green. Of particular note right now is how little play Blood Moon is seeing, making it less of a problem to play the 3 color version.
Btw I think Trophy does nothing against Scapeshift
If you destroy Valakut before they combo, they replace it with another land so they stay at the same land count
If you destroy Valakut in response to combo triggers then triggers still resolve and do same amount of damage
If you destroy non Valakut they just replace it with Mountain so land count stay the same and triggers do same damage (or more)
So you just waste a card and mana for nothing
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I'm thinking Crypt Incursion/Ensnaring Bridge/Murderous Cut out, Extirpate/IoK/Surgical in?
you could side some creatures for a surprise effect.. can be tested
I'll be playing Mill again coming Sunday on another Modern event, hope it will go just as well.
But I had forgotten how much fun it is to play mill. And this new build even feels/is competitive against many Tier decks at this point.
But I had forgotten how much fun it is to play mill. And this new build even feels/is competitive against many Tier decks at this point.[/quot
yeah I have struggled against Jund/BG rock these past two weeks. My FNM decks have had more this decks pop up and the mill deck has been struggling. I mean they are close game and a couple of them I was able to get them down to 1 card in the deck but it wasn't enough. That was why I was trying assassin trophy in the deck but I think the UB version is just more consistent.
I've found Spirits to be a very tough matchup for my UB deck - Yamar, how do you do it? Spell Queller wrecks me so hard, stomping out my mill spells and Fatal pushes (or bridges when I try to land them), then flying over my head. It might just be that she knows how to play spirits vs UB Mill because of our regular matchups, but I feel it's tight but definitely unfavoured for me.
Well, I've played the match at my local FNM 3 times in the last month and have gone 3-0 against it (once 2-0, twice 2-1). For reference, I'm playing the Jason Chung build at the moment and plan to start tweaking it a bit this week. My primary strategy is to get rid of the Quellers first and foremost by Extraction means in game 1. This absorbs any chance countering as they don't usually main other options. To me it's just as important as bleeding out the Meddling Mages in the Humans matchup. After that, landing a Bridge and/or a nice Incursion generally will buy enough time to take them out.
Post SB, we get other removal options - I find Night of Souls' Betrayal to be vastly underrated in this and many other matchups post-board - and the board wipe, but mostly it's just plowing thru the important creatures - get rid of Drogskol and Quellers as you can to free things up and keep hexproof off the table.
I know I've been a bit lucky, but the last game was against one of our most seasoned pilots and that was the 2-0. I got lucky with a topdeck Damnation and the following turn he tapped out for a CoCo and I responded with a massive Incursion. Sometimes it just goes that way...
If you have a list for your current UW list, can you post or send it to me? Curious as to what type of build you're working with.
From personal experience, I think Geist of Saint Traft is the most dangerous card against us so if you have a chance to get rid of it via IoK then I would do it.
He boards like this:
Out: 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Mesmeric Orb, 3 Surgical Extraction
In: 1 Crypt Incursion, 1 Dismember, 1 Damnation, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Fatal Push, 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Night of Souls Betrayl
I had the idea for a UW list when I realized my only black spells were Glimpses, Crypt Incursion, Fatal Push and Collective Brutality, with Damnation and LLotVoid in the side, and white generally offered better stuff (Verdict and Settle, RiP, Path), and sideboard options. It definitely still needs tuning, I've probably only played about 12-15 matches with it. Also, I was mistaken - currently running no creatures. I'm still somewhat learning how to play control (I'm familiar with it since I've played MTG for 15 years) so advice on the control package would be good.
The basic plan is to slow the game down with counterspells (Cryptic is so boss) and removal (Path, Verdict), and get some combination of Trap/Briefing/Orb/Fraying Sanity down and protect. It seems to work well, your opponent seems to settle into a grindier game and then you hit them with a Trap > Briefing for most of the rest of their deck. Also, spicy haymaker in Psychic Spiral, haha, but it's an instant which is key!
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Shelldock Isle
4 Field of Ruin
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
Removal
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Settle the Wreckage
3 Path to Exile
4 Archive Trap
4 Mesmeric Orb
2 Thought Scour
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Fraying Sanity
Control
3 Visions of Beyond
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate or Spell Snare or Mana Leak or Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
4 Mission Briefing
1 Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the sunken ruin
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Fragmentize
2 Dispel
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Profane Memento
Firstly, lands seem to be good colour wise, but with the prevalence of Field of Ruin around, I haven't had a Shelldock survive to activation in some time, so I'm considering cutting, or dropping to fewer than 3. Academy Ruins is great for recurring Orbs, but colourless mana (on top of the stuff from our own FoR) can sometimes be hard. I've just thought about an Ipnu Rivulet as an option too, but with no Crypt Incursion, lifegain is a little harder to come by so I'm cautious. I'm also thinking about going up to 23 or even 24, we really want to be making our first 3 (ideally 4) land drops.
The only loss to milling from taking out black is Glimpse, and with Mission Briefing doing a decent job acting as a mill spell with Archive Trap in the yard, as a 4-of with 4 Field of Ruin, it fills Glimpses slot pretty nicely.
For counterspells, I think 2 Logic Knot and 3 Cryptic give me pretty good all around coverage, and I think I should buff it out with 2 of the other options. Right now I'm testing Spell Snare (BGx was AssTrophy all over my orbs, Goyf is always a concern), but I can't decide what these 2 should be, or if I need more than 7 counterspells (up to 9?) My inclination would be mana leak or negate for these slots, perhaps 2 of each. Remand does a pretty good job at slowing them down while keeping our hand up.
I've considered Crabs and Scribes but have found them to just be a lightning rod for removal. I had my most success with my UB deck around AER release (ie: Fatal Push) by having no creatures in the main, leaves a lot of removal stranded. I've effectively used these slots to put the control package in.
One thing I've dropped is the Ensnaring Bridge - it doesn't play nicely with countermagic. Just had a thought that since I'm in white I could stick Ghostly Prison in to fill that role if need be.
I'm unsure if I need 2 Supreme Verdict AND 2 Settle the Wreckage in the main. I see it as Path handling big threats, and this handling go-wide strategies, which would otherwise be a tough matchup. Perhaps could slot 2 out for 2 Ghostly Prisons as anti go-wide.
Anyways, the list is not as out-there as you would think, it's still almost the same core mill package but with countermagic instead of creatures. White just complements the control strategy better than black does, in Modern at least. You could play similarly with a UB Control mill list, but UB control is more empty-handed, protect your threat on the board and tempo them down. But we're not really deploying a threat here, so it's not really ideal here. Being able to make your opponent tap mana into your Orbs, or holding up a Cryptic or Logic Knot (or Mission Briefing) to catch-all in the later game (where we are aiming to play to anyway) is a great place to be in my experience.
My sideboard has more than 15 cards since I'm still testing it out. A couple not mentioned that I've also considered: Spellskie, Leyline of Sanctity, Detention Sphere, Spreading Seas, Wall of Denial, Vapor Snag, Timely Reinforcements, Set Adrift
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Field of Ruin
2 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures
4 Hedron Crab
Spells
4 Visions of Beyond
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mission Briefing
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Crypt Incursion
4 Archive Trap
1 Murderous Cut
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Set Adrift
4 Extirpate
1 Fatal Push
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dismember
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
I think I definitely benefited from a couple of favorable matches, but deck felt great.
2-0 vs Counters Company
G1 (W): T2 trap into surgical of Devoted Druid draws the concession
G2 (W): T3 double trap into surgical draws concession
2-0 vs Amulet Titan
G1 (W): Starts off looking bad. Opp starts on double Amulet, but has no payoff so my slow keep isn't punished. Orb is my only mill piece, which they EE immediately. Push answers his ballista. I get a bridge down and draw into mill, letting me briefing a surgical to take their titans. they concede.
G2 (W): Mull to 5, but it's a strong 5 (land, crab, glimpse, cut, extirpate). I quickly mill a titan, surgical, and opp concedes.
2-0 vs Bant Spirits
G1 (W): Extremely close game. Crab and trap do a lot of work, but opp is swinging in with lethal only to get blindsided with a mid-attack Collective Brutality cast with Shelldock Isle, killing their phantasmal image and gaining me 2 life, leaving me alive to mill them out the following turn with a land drop.
G2 (W): They keep what seems to be a slow hand, banking on Thalia to slow me down. It + wanderer do present an annoyance, but crab & orb do a steady job churning through their deck. There's a fun sequence when I go to push their thalia. They queller it, but I set adrift their queller, letting me push thalia, and then orb mills away their queller. It's clear they have a company or 2 in hand, but they can't get to 4 mana. field of ruin was functionally wasteland because few basics got milled away.
2-1 vs Tron
G1 (L): I keep a medium hand that does nothing against Tron. I draw into aggressive mill and nearly get there anyway. They land a Karn on T4. I get them to 1 card before they ultimate him and reset the game with an Ulamog in play.
G2 (W): T3 crab mills tron piece and surgical removes it. Opp tries to play it out, but T4 field of ruin into trap into briefing/trap basically ends it.
G3 (W): I keep a hand with a surgical and 2 extirpates, but trap as my only mill. Thankfully, Opp has to sylvan scrying on T3, letting me trap and surgical the land he searched for. Opp tried to be sneaky with a surgical in response to mine, but I extirpate in response. Opp tries to play it out again, but can't draw a land for the TKS in hand, and they concede when I drop Ensnaring Bridge.
2-0 vs Hollow One
G1 (W): They have T2 Hollow One + Tasigur. I have a bridge in hand, but brutality first to dump some cards, and get the bridge down on T4. Eventually they get 2 bloodghasts and phoenixes out, but I'm able to get my hand empty before they can do enough damage. I get a good crypt incursion to go back up to 24 and opp concedes.
G2 (W): I keep a hand that isn't awesome, but I get a T1 trap. I consider waiting, but I do have an extirpate in hand, so I risk it. I'm able to remove their bloodghasts. I'm not loving my hand, but I have crab, lands, and some a couple answers. Opp scoops after they don't get their second land on T4.
Deck was super fun. Made up for the 1-4 I put up last night. A deck that makes main deck surgical extraction effective is so good against so many decks.
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Field of Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Sunken Hollow
3 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
4 Hedron Crab
4 Manic Scribe
Instants
4 Archive Trap
3 Crypt Incursion
4 Murderous Cut
4 Visions of Beyond
Sorceries
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind Funeral
1 Startled Awake
Artifacts
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Darkness
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Extirpate
4 Profane Memento
3 Set Adrift
What I often find is that against most decks, I board into a prison-ish build: take out Mind Funeral/Startled Awake/Glimpse the Unthinkable, bring in whatever I think I need. If they don't fetch, obviously Archive Trap goes out. If I need more than 8 slots (or 12 if they don't fetch--yes, I've brought in literally my entire sideboard) I take whichever of Orb and Scribe I think will be less effective in the game I think I'm likely to play. Hadn't really sussed out how to play against Tron (haven't played much of late; took this for a spin at GP side events) but against them I'd probably take out Orb/Scribe and bring in Extirpate, Bridge, Set Adrift.
Might try replacing Funeral/Awake with Mission Briefing. I don't want to go below eight sources of untargeted mill, though.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Did you play Visions of Beyond much? If so, how did it interact with Ensnaring Bridge?
thanks
It's an anti-combo, I agree, but the two cards are both individually so powerful that I find I can't not run both.
As I recall, it didn't actually cost me any games--generally by the time I had a Bridge lock going I had enough mana to cast everything I drew off the Visions, unless I got unlucky and hit two lands. (Which does happen, of course, but that's one small reason I run nine fetches.)
The only time I found myself really up against it was against a mono-red prison deck with Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void on one and two... of course there my Visions were being countered, so I could keep my hand empty and not get overrun by all the Goblin tokens from Goblin Rabblemaster and Legion Warboss. (My Drownyard won me that game, probably milled half his deck. Afterward, he said, "His Ensnaring Bridge... that's supposed to be on my side..." But his Abrades couldn't get past his own Chalice.)
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
You might want to try playing a more controlling list to begin with, as they are far superior to lists with cards like Manic Scribe, Mind Funeral, and (yikes) Startled Awake - all of which are too slow, do too little, or are just plain bad.
Perhaps, but I like having more untargeted mill, and Scribe is, once you have delirium, like clockwork. If I were to change the list I'm running, it'd be to swap the Funeral/Awake for four copies of Breaking.
Which might still be less than ideal, but I'm familiar with playing the style of list I posted.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
(sorry about the deck formatting - not quite sure how to do that?)
4x Archive Trap
2x Cast Down
1x Engulf the Shore
3x Fatal Push
2x Mission Briefing
3x Remand
2x Trapmaker's Snare
2x Winds of Rebuke
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Field of Ruin
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
4x Day's Undoing
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
Sideboard (15)
2x Devour Flesh
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Lost Legacy
4x Negate
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Unmoored Ego
Basically, I was coming from how often I simply run out of gas with mill more than anything. So the primary goal here is to have a Leyline opener - the Crypts are a backup to that. Do what you can, hopefully bleed 20-30 cards out and kill as much of the board as possible. Then Day's Undoing to refuel. You get your full deck back (more mill spells back in the library) while your opponent's library is down whatever has been milled thanks to removing the graveyard one way or another. They draw a fresh 7 and reset with a 20-30 card library. If you stave off firing a Day's until turn 5 or 6, it's plausible to cast your reset and still have mana available for a Remand or other option. Having 6 mana on your "first turn" after the reset raises the chance of Glimpse > Briefing > Glimpse.
This first "live trial" felt pretty good and got some good conversations going after. Greatly improves options over the non-Surgical heavy builds against things like Dredge and RB Arclight due to the Leylines in the main. Kills any lifegain options from Crypt or Momento, so things like Burn I expect to be harder...
Any thoughts/feedback/insights?
What if you dont draw your gravehate? Day's Undoing is undoing all your mill work.
Day's Undoing doesnt reset your life totals and opps board. Thats just a gift to an aggro deck.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!